G5 Trinity @ WWDC

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  • Reply 301 of 492
    nathan22tnathan22t Posts: 317member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by concentricity

    I thought the...



    <key>PowerMac7,3</key>

    <string>PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin</string>



    had been talked about a few months ago? If you notice the format, it basically says 7,3 gets reported as 7,2. My guess for that would be PM Rev that wasn't. A PM with 970fx would still report being a G5? Who knows. But the



    <key>PowerMac8,1</key>

    <string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>



    is VERY interesting. Any guesses on what SMU_Neo2 is?




    I think the PowerMac7,3 could be a minor internal rev of little consequence.



    But the inclusion of Neo (original PM G5 codename) and 2 indicates that the 8,1 is the sequel to the Powermac G5 and not an iMac.
  • Reply 302 of 492
    notice that all the "pro" machines are odd? Like PowerMac3,6 for the late PowerMac G4's. But the iMacs are all even, like PowerMac4,2 for the first FP iMac.



    The only thing that deviates from that at all is the 12" PowerBook, which is pretty much just an upgraded 12" iBook.



    Therefore, my guess for "PowerMac8,1" is either G5 iMac, or an anniversary machine geared towards consumers.
  • Reply 303 of 492
    concordconcord Posts: 312member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by McCrab:

    ... and people don't care for Macs because?



    The easiest answer is that it is simply a PC world out there. In fact, "PC" has become synonymous with the word "Computer". Apple is regarded now as just a fringe computer. People want what they use at work, what their friends have and what they're used to using. PCs have had a lock on the industry for so long that they've been steadily choking off all competition - no matter how good. You only need to see steady decline in computer sales from Apple over the last 8 or 9 years to tell you that. Even a robust OS:X and a competitive G5 hasn't allowed them to recover, only stabilize.



    At this stage of the game it doesn't matter what speed of computer Apple can produce, people tend to go with what they are comfortable with. And if you have a lot of apps and personal files accumulated over the years it becomes that much harder yet to want to switch.

    Quote:

    If Apple are going to retrieve market share, they need to offer something that is overwhelming. A 30% faster single processor and then offer it in a dual configuration at a modest premium over which you could buy a PC.



    First, because Apple does not build PCs this will not help them in the long run. And second, for most applications -what we have now in speed is quite sufficient. For the general consumer, other than games, there is no reason to buy a top end machine. This is why we have the huge explosion of sales in sub-$1000 machines.



    In the long run Apple needs to come up with a fundamentally better way of computing. Something so compelling that you would have to be stupid not to buy into it.

    Quote:

    Apple can win this if the value proposition is overwhelming.



    What you have to understand is that for the general consumer compatibility is more valuable than raw speed. Speed we've got in spades already because there is no killer consumer app that requires more than we've got.



    C.
  • Reply 304 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by nathan22t

    I think the PowerMac7,3 could be a minor internal rev of little consequence.



    But the inclusion of Neo (original PM G5 codename) and 2 indicates that the 8,1 is the sequel to the Powermac G5 and not an iMac.




    yeah, is just noticed the Neo codename. But if you read the codenames site again, the codename is for the G5 (PPC970) processor, not the machine. Therefore, I still bet it's a reference to a G5 (970fx based) iMac.
  • Reply 305 of 492
    shaktaishaktai Posts: 157member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by nathan22t

    I think the PowerMac7,3 could be a minor internal rev of little consequence.



    But the inclusion of Neo (original PM G5 codename) and 2 indicates that the 8,1 is the sequel to the Powermac G5 and not an iMac.




    I would agree with the 7,3 being a revision of little consequence, such that the OS recognizes it the same as 7,2.



    8,1, I really have no idea. The numbering sequence (as mentioned) might imply it is an iMac, but <string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string> would seem to me, says there is more to that story then meets the eye.



    Apple did use the odd & even scenario to differentiate the Pro and Consumer markets, but then now it seems that they are not "locked" to that scenario.



    Just more food for speculation, but it would indicate something more then just a megahertz boost is in the near future.
  • Reply 306 of 492
    nathan22tnathan22t Posts: 317member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by concentricity

    notice that all the "pro" machines are odd? Like PowerMac3,6 for the late PowerMac G4's. But the iMacs are all even, like PowerMac4,2 for the first FP iMac.



    The only thing that deviates from that at all is the 12" PowerBook, which is pretty much just an upgraded 12" iBook.



    Therefore, my guess for "PowerMac8,1" is either G5 iMac, or an anniversary machine geared towards consumers.




    Ah, that pattern is quite apparent now.



    So the second Neo is either the 970fx or something even better (aka 975,98x). Since the 8,1 is likely an iMac, the fx makes sense in terms of heat concerns and not getting the best IBM has to offer (assuming that they hopefully do have something better to offer).
  • Reply 307 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Concord

    The easiest answer is that it is simply a PC world out there. In fact, "PC" has become synonymous with the word "Computer". [snip]...[/snip]C.



    I really hope you see the irony in your statement. "PC" is, and always has been "Personal Computer". What you really mean is that "PC" is no longer synonymous with wintel, as most people don't even consider anything outside that sphere (including AMD, which most people, aside from techies, are clueless about).



    thanks for the laugh.
  • Reply 308 of 492
    ok, so the "8,1" indicates a consumer machine, probably iMac or its successor. and the "Neo2" most likely refers to the 970fx. The only real question left is what "SMU" refers to. Figure that bit out and I'll buy you a coffee.



    oh yeah, and any bets on how long until croquer "breaks the news" of the G5 iMac to be released at WWDC?
  • Reply 309 of 492
    concordconcord Posts: 312member




    "PC" these days is in a lot of ways like saying "KFC" - the acronym really has become the word...



    What I was really getting at here was when people are talking about computers - you immediately assume they're talking about PCs.



    You want a computer or do you want a Mac...? 8)



    C.
  • Reply 310 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by tad44

    From MacOSX 10.3.4's /System/Library/Extensions/



    <key>PowerMac8,1</key>

    <string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>



    What the *** is PowerMac8,1???




    Now this is some good, hands on detective work, nice job!



    "Neo2" definitely sounds like the successor chip to the 970 (Neo) to me. Besides, it says PowerMac8,1 right there. It's obviously not an iMac.



    Can you say Dual 3GHz 975 based Power Mac G5s at WWDC? I thought you could!
  • Reply 311 of 492
    nathan22tnathan22t Posts: 317member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Ensign Pulver

    Now this is some good, hands on detective work, nice job!



    "Neo2" definitely sounds like the successor chip to the 970 (Neo) to me. Besides, it says PowerMac8,1 right there. It's obviously not an iMac.



    Can you say Dual 3GHz 975 based Power Mac G5s at WWDC? I thought you could!




    Historically speaking....

    iMacs and eMacs have usually received PowerMac id's that begin with even numbers

    likewise, iBooks have usually received PowerBook id's that begin with even numbers

    http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index....bpage=newworld



    So the 8,1 could very well be (and likely is) an iMac.



    Assuming the 975 is Trinity... then Neo2 (revision to Neo, the 970) is probably 970fx (which makes sense in an iMac as I noted above).
  • Reply 312 of 492
    airslufairsluf Posts: 1,861member
    Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.



    Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.



    Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
  • Reply 313 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by nathan22t

    Historically speaking....

    iMacs have usually received PowerMac id's that begin with even numbers

    iBooks have usually received PowerBook id's that begin with even numbers

    http://www.theapplemuseum.com/index....bpage=newworld



    So the 8,1 could very well be (and likely is) an iMac.



    Assuming the 975 is Trinity... then Neo2 (revision to Neo, the 970) is probably 970fx (which makes sense in an iMac as I noted above).




    i think ensign just hadn't read to the part where I explained this before. he must have been all excited seeing the first post.
  • Reply 314 of 492
    gamblorgamblor Posts: 446member
    Quote:

    Assuming the 975 is Trinity... then Neo2 (revision to Neo, the 970) is probably 970fx (which makes sense in an iMac as I noted above).



    OK, but if that's the case, why doesn't the xServe (the "RackMac" from the .plist file above) mention Neo as well?



    Quote:

    Originally posted by tad44

    From MacOSX 10.3.4's /System/Library/Extensions/AppleMacRISC4PE.kext/Contents/Info.plist

    <key>PowerMac7,2</key>

    <string>PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin</string>

    <key>PowerMac7,3</key>

    <string>PowerMac7_2_PlatformPlugin</string>

    <key>PowerMac8,1</key>

    <string>SMU_Neo2_PlatformPlugin</string>

    <key>RackMac3,1</key>

    <string>RackMac3_1_PlatformPlugin</string>




    I'm not exactly sure what to make of this.







    Quote:

    Historically speaking....

    iMacs have usually received PowerMac id's that begin with even numbers

    iBooks have usually received PowerBook id's that begin with even numbers



    ...and since the unknown powermac key above is "PowerMac7,3" instead of something like "PowerMac9,1", it kind of implies that the Powermacs will just get a speed bump, not a whole new architecture-- no POWER5 derivative chip, no PCIe... At least this suggests that we'll see a new iMac.



    Or maybe I'm completely off base.
  • Reply 315 of 492
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Gamblor

    OK, but if that's the case, why doesn't the xServe (the "RackMac" from the .plist file above) mention Neo as well?







    I'm not exactly sure what to make of this.











    ...and since the unknown powermac key above is "PowerMac7,3" instead of something like "PowerMac9,1", it kind of implies that the Powermacs will just get a speed bump, not a whole new architecture-- no POWER5 derivative chip, no PCIe... At least this suggests that we'll see a new iMac.



    Or maybe I'm completely off base.




    All the released products have te same string as key, hence the "RackMac3,1" has the string "RackMac_3_1". But the "PowerMac8,1" isn't released, and I'd guess that's why there's still mention of an internal codename within the OS X build. I'd expect the codenames to disappear with the first rev of OS X after the G5 iMac (or whatever) is released.



    oh yeah, your second point/question...I'd bet, as others have speculated, that the "PowerMac7,3" is either a small build-change that's already released (minor update to the MB of the original PM G5), OR, and more likely in my mind, the 970fx-based PM G5's that were supposed to be released this past winter (but we'll never see them). So I'd guess that we may very well see "PowerMac9,1" as soon as the next rev of PM's comes out.
  • Reply 316 of 492
    mac voyermac voyer Posts: 1,294member
    I know nothing about chip fabs and processes and so I have nothing to add to the technical side of this discussion. What strikes me though is this. The more things change, the more they stay the same. For the last several years all I have heard from certain quarters of the Mac community is "Just give it one more revision!" The big change is just around the corner. I have been hearing this about the PM line for years now. People kept waiting on vapor ware from Moto that would change everything. When the G5 came, the mantra was "The benchmarks will improve when the software goes 64 bit" and "The next revision is the one that will really catch us up." I am beginning to believe that Apple will always be in this position. There is something systemic that is causing this. I am almost certain of it. Perhaps it is their business model. Perhaps it is the way they deal with vendors. I don't know. Will we ever see a time when the Mac faithful is not waiting for something that is just around the corner? Has it always been this way? I don't know what they will release, but I seriously doubt it will change anything. After the initial excitement dies down, people will be saying "It's right around the corner. Just you wait and see."
  • Reply 317 of 492
    nathan22tnathan22t Posts: 317member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by concentricity

    So I'd guess that we may very well see "PowerMac9,1" as soon as the next rev of PM's comes out.



    That would be nice.



    I think it's important to note that what id's are listed in 10.3.4 is not "all that she wrote" (american colloquialism) in terms of what we should expect to see. Assuming that 10.3.5 does not come out before WWDC, Apple could include a slightly modified version of 10.3.4 (specific to each new product) with whatever new machines ship at (or slightly before) WWDC. They have done this often in the past I believe.



    So even if we assume that a G5 iMac (with the 970fx) is basically confirmed... a 9,1 (or 7,4) Trinity (975) Powermac isn't impossible at all.



    I take hope in the original powermac g5 promotional video where IBM says they already have prototypes for the next-gen chips.



    If there isn't a 'next-gen' chip in the Powermacs at WWDC, then I'll (we'll) just have take the highest Ghz rating IBM can muster from the 970(fx) chips.
  • Reply 318 of 492
    brussellbrussell Posts: 9,812member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by AirSluf

    Why do you persist in writing between my lines? I haven't said squat about what is coming when. I have explicitly stated I don't know when anything is coming or what it's specs will be. I am merely fed up with officious and factually incorrect statements. Also with this incessant making crap up about what other posters have posted to make yourself look something other than what you are, just another one of us chumps.



    As for the bet, since I never wrote anything speculative to be wrong about, just posted public facts contradicting some of your oh so firmly put statements. I guess I already get to request "I was right" (but I'm not going to because I would hate to take an unfair advantage in a bet). Doesn't matter how obscure you might think the facts are because you didn't already know them, they are still facts. You might get to be right as well, but you might not be as well. Is it too much to ask for you to pay attention to what both I and others are posting, not try to do revisionist spinning?




    Man you computer geeks take this stuff personally.



    I asked you if you wanted to take the bet : "If you want to bet they'll [3 Ghz] be there, I'll take you up on it." If you don't want to make that bet, I don't care. I believe that they're going to release a 970fx-based, sub-3 Ghz PowerMac G5 at WWDC. I believe that the idea that they're going to release a "975" parallel chip is wishful thinking. I never suggested in the slightest that I had any "officious" knowledge. I posted my opinion on a computer forum. Why is that so difficult to understand and not take personally?



    And don't talk to me about factually incorrect statements, he who thinks the PowerMac G4 topped out at 1 Ghz. It's one thing to be wrong about speculations on what's going to happen in the future, but it's another to be wrong on trivial facts like that.
  • Reply 319 of 492
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,425member
    Mac Voyer



    That's indicative of the computer market in general. The Linux user crows about the next Kernel update or the next reiserFS release. The PC user talks about the next Motherboard advancement or GPU the Mac user talks about the next OS update or CPU.



    The fact is I'm seeing people who earn a living with their Mac have no complaints about the Dual 2Ghz. Funny the people who call it slow aren't the ones making their bread with their computer.



    Virginia Tech isn't the only place that has found Macs to be capable workhorses.



    Really it isn't the Hardware that we should be looking at it's the softare. For instance Motion is groundbreaking but so many people look at it and say "I'm not in to Digital Video" and fail to look at the paradigm that Motion is ushering in.



    Motion shows us the future. Here is what I believe are 3 key areas in software design that are emminent.



    1. Loading more work into RAM. With fast Dual Channel memory busses it's clear that as we move to systems with 4GB of memory and up that applications will depend on loading more data into memory to reap the performance benefit.



    2. GPU providing additional co-processing. Motion utilizes the GPU heavily to very good effect. I expect more if this in the future to enable realtime features .



    3. Multithreading. In a few years everyone will be on multiprocessing systems. Programs that use multiple cpus effeciently will be desired the most. Programmers will have to start thinking about software dev from a new perspective.



    4. Grid technology- While it won't work for everything some things are going to smoke once you put the concurrent processing power of multiple computers on a task.



    So yes it's easy to pine for that next beast of a Powermac but it's also important to have our software keep up with the power and use it efficiently.
  • Reply 320 of 492
    ensign pulverensign pulver Posts: 1,193member
    concentricity, I bow to your knowledge and analysis. I got all excited and ahead of myself. Looks like the PM 7,3 was the aborted winter rev Bs and the 8,1 is the imminent G5 iMac.



    Looks like we've got a Matrix theme here. The 970 is Neo, the 970fx is Neo2 and the 975 is Trinity.



    So who's gonna hold out for a dual 4GHz Agent Smith?
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