I won't try to pass myself off as qualified to speak on all the merits of PCIe but it is worth waiting for. I just hope that Apple implements more than just a slot for the video card. While we don't want to give up the older PCI technology yet it would be very nice to have atleast two PCIe slots in the new Mac. The thought of having two high performance graphics cards in one of thse machines is hot.
DAve
Quote:
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
There are probably others on these boards more qualified than I to speak on the merits of PCIe though.
In the meantime here's an article from The Inquirer.
This would be no different than what happened with the original G5s last year and we all lived through that.
And for the 1 millionth time, he didn't say "end of summer", he said "within twelve months" which can only be interpreted as 3GHz G5s being at least announced no later than this year's WWDC. At least, that's obviously what he meant at the time.
Originally he did say 12 months... but in sept at paris mw he said end of summer... who cares... same to me any ways.
a thread like this is why I spend months reading inanae AI comments. I spend all day in front of my mac doing motion graphics and waiting for the damn thing to render. Motion... ahhh, 975.. ahh PCI Express... ahhhh.
I just wee'd my pants
I think Trinity is for 3 processors. two 975s and one ati/Nvidia PCIe monster.
And for the 1 millionth time, he didn't say "end of summer", he said "within twelve months" which can only be interpreted as 3GHz G5s being at least announced no later than this year's WWDC. At least, that's obviously what he meant at the time.
Check your Jobs quotes. While he did say "within 12 months" at WWDC in June, at Apple Expo in Paris (September 2003) he changed this statement to "3GHz by the end of summer". And Summer, according to Apple, is end of September.
Thats not to say that we wont see 3GHz in June, I am just letting you know that Jobs did indeed update his statement.
BTW, my reading comprehension is just fine. You're the one with the fanboi delusions if you think that IBM exec's statements shed any light on future, unannounced processors.
Fanboi delusions
Your points about the 975 being vapore are cogent, but the original G5 was also vaporware right up until the point it was announced and subsequently released. I guess time will tell who is right. I say that the 975 will be at least announced at WWDC in June.
I won't try to pass myself off as qualified to speak on all the merits of PCIe but it is worth waiting for. I just hope that Apple implements more than just a slot for the video card. While we don't want to give up the older PCI technology yet it would be very nice to have atleast two PCIe slots in the new Mac. The thought of having two high performance graphics cards in one of thse machines is hot.
I'd be surprised if they put more than one PCIe slot in for the first rev, but multiple video cards is a big plus of PCIe over AGP. On the other hand, one of the top end cards is already hot enough, two would be too hot. Literally.
I did not know that PCI - Express and PCIe are two completely different things. I wasn't sure reading some of the post, I figuresed it was PCIe was just a short hand for PCI Express. If somebody could explain the difference or point me to a page that does, that would be great.
Yah I had my wires crossed... for some reason I kept thinking that the current g5's had pci-express but not pcie... too much programming this weekend ...
I've had 5 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours... stupid java / swing
Trinity or not Apple needs something new. If they come out with another 970FX based tower no matter how fast it is it will be a failure.
I don't quite understand what you mean, wizard. What's so terrible about the 970? If they've gotten higher clocked yields up, I don't see what the problem is.
I was wondering about PPC 975 info and I googled this up on IBM's Taiwan server and used babelfish to do the Chinese to English translation. Apparently this is a reprint of an iThome article, 132nd issue, p.56 - p.60.
Scroll down to the "IBM Power5/Power5+" section. I found this part most interesting:
Quote:
According to IBM indicated that, the Power5 time arteries will be situated between 1.6GHz to 2GHz, next year will promote 90nm system regulation according to the Power4+ pattern Power5+, when the arteries might arrive 3GHz. IBM estimated 1.6GHz Power5 may achieve 1.3GHz Power4 two time of potency. Moreover, IBM as the foundation constructs the larger-scale multi-processor system take Power5, PowerPC 975 also directly continues to use the Power5 core. But, was opposite with initially the Power4 strategy, Power5 as soon as will start by the lower step server primarily, in the future only then gradually to extend to the high step server. Behind this represents strategy transition, worth noting.
To me it sounds like IBM will be focusing on the 975 first. IBM offered the Power 4 in high end servers first, then the 970 in their low-end servers. One could take the above statement to mean that they will bring out the Low end server (975 based?) and then the higher end (Power 5).
In fact, I could swear that I saw an article for new servers from IBM with a power 5 based chip in it.
The article also talks about several other features of the Power5 family that are interesting.
Kickaha and Amorph couldn't moderate themselves out of a paper bag. Abdicate responsibility and succumb to idiocy. Two years of letting a member make personal attacks against others, then stepping aside when someone won't put up with it. Not only that but go ahead and shut down my posting priviledges but not the one making the attacks. Not even the common decency to abide by their warning (afer three days of absorbing personal attacks with no mods in sight), just shut my posting down and then say it might happen later if a certian line is crossed. Bullshit flag is flying, I won't abide by lying and coddling of liars who go off-site, create accounts differing in a single letter from my handle with the express purpose to decieve and then claim here that I did it. Everyone be warned, kim kap sol is a lying, deceitful poster.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
The 970 is not terrible but niether is it the beast that some think it is. One of the biggest problems with it is the size of the cache which will be a problem if an attemtp to ramp colck speed is made. Further by the time it does come outin a G5 Tower. if it indeed does come out there, it will not have an acceptable performance point relative to the rest of the Hardware world.
The 970 and the FX would be fantastic in a iMac or other consumer Mac. It will be lacking in another go around of the Tower, so what I'm trying to say is that Apple has the makings of an excellent low end processor but the high end is a bit underserved by it.
Dave
Quote:
Originally posted by Big Mac
I don't quite understand what you mean, wizard. What's so terrible about the 970? If they've gotten higher clocked yields up, I don't see what the problem is.
Ugh. I hope those prices aren't right. My friends at work already mock me bad enough for wanting to spend $2500 for a PMac vs $1000 for a homebrew PC. I know Apple positions the PMacs as professional machines and if the machine is making you money, any price is worth it if the box pays for itself.
But I'm a software engineer who works in a Windows centric shop and has been an Apple owner since 1984. The eMac and iMac are too closed for my taste. I've put new video, memory, hard drive, and optical drive in my B&W G3; about the only upgrade I haven't made is a processor swap. I'm looking at a (hopefully) dual 975, PCIe machine to be serviceable for 5 or so years. If Apple pushes the bar of entry into the "good" machines that high, I may fall off the bandwagon and enter the world of beige boxes and frequent motherboard swaps, etc., etc. - with an iBook to keep me sane.
Maybe other "prosumers" are going to laptops, or Apple will make the iMacs beefy enough to appeal to others, but I REALLY want a new PMac. I hope Apple doesn't price the next gen PMacs out of the prosumer hobbyist market.
Your points about the 975 being vapore are cogent, but the original G5 was also vaporware right up until the point it was announced and subsequently released. I guess time will tell who is right. I say that the 975 will be at least announced at WWDC in June.
Hold on... we knew plenty about the 970 by January '03, but the Apple G5 machines weren't released until June '03. We had photos of the chip (with feathers!), data sheets, all kinds of information on the chip from IBM, altho nothing from Apple. Some folks still thought Apple would switch to the Itanic, right up to the day that the G5 came out.
By contrast, we know virtually nothing about the 975 at this point. Even the part number is only a rumor.
Ugh. I hope those prices aren't right. My friends at work already mock me bad enough for wanting to spend $2500 for a PMac vs $1000 for a homebrew PC. I know Apple positions the PMacs as professional machines and if the machine is making you money, any price is worth it if the box pays for itself.
But I'm a software engineer who works in a Windows centric shop and has been an Apple owner since 1984. The eMac and iMac are too closed for my taste. I've put new video, memory, hard drive, and optical drive in my B&W G3; about the only upgrade I haven't made is a processor swap. I'm looking at a (hopefully) dual 975, PCIe machine to be serviceable for 5 or so years. If Apple pushes the bar of entry into the "good" machines that high, I may fall off the bandwagon and enter the world of beige boxes and frequent motherboard swaps, etc., etc. - with an iBook to keep me sane.
Maybe other "prosumers" are going to laptops, or Apple will make the iMacs beefy enough to appeal to others, but I REALLY want a new PMac. I hope Apple doesn't price the next gen PMacs out of the prosumer hobbyist market.
- Jasen.
I wouldn't worry about those prices too much... they don't really compute any ways... I think he was just joking.
Think about the ratio... if it goes dual 2.2, dual 2.6, dual 3.0... the ratio's are completely wrong...
Right now you can get a dual 1.8 for 2500, and a dual 2 for 3k. retail that is. (since you're a software engineer you should be able to slide into getting them cheaper )
If the configs I mentioned above are correct... why would the dual3 go up 500 and the dual 2.6 go up 400?? Graphics Card?
I seriously doubt apple would release a top machine for that price before build to order options have been selected. They wouldn't sell that many... I know I sure in the hell wouldn't buy one for that much. And I definitely wouldn't buy mid line... I'm actually in the same boat you are... I'm a software engineer and I'm sick of windows machines. I've used macs since 93 and want to develop on them full time.
Even with the discount 3500 isn't WAY too high and apple knows it.
...Even with the discount 3500 isn't WAY too high and apple knows it.
I would hope that Apple realizes that the low end PM is too high as well. Currently at $1799, a $200 price increase would be hard to sell. In todays market it really needs to get back down to $1599, the starting price for the Blue and White, Yikes and Sawtooth models. To be more competitive they should really shoot for $1499 or even less, though that would admittedly be pushing it for Apple's marketing strategy. If Apple can't achieve this with the current G5 tower then they need to introduce a new model that will address the lower-end needs of the professional market, such as Graphics production, which needs a lower cost computer but whose needs are not met by the iMac or eMac.
Comments
DAve
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
There are probably others on these boards more qualified than I to speak on the merits of PCIe though.
In the meantime here's an article from The Inquirer.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
This would be no different than what happened with the original G5s last year and we all lived through that.
And for the 1 millionth time, he didn't say "end of summer", he said "within twelve months" which can only be interpreted as 3GHz G5s being at least announced no later than this year's WWDC. At least, that's obviously what he meant at the time.
Originally he did say 12 months... but in sept at paris mw he said end of summer... who cares... same to me any ways.
I just wee'd my pants
I think Trinity is for 3 processors. two 975s and one ati/Nvidia PCIe monster.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
And for the 1 millionth time, he didn't say "end of summer", he said "within twelve months" which can only be interpreted as 3GHz G5s being at least announced no later than this year's WWDC. At least, that's obviously what he meant at the time.
Check your Jobs quotes. While he did say "within 12 months" at WWDC in June, at Apple Expo in Paris (September 2003) he changed this statement to "3GHz by the end of summer". And Summer, according to Apple, is end of September.
Thats not to say that we wont see 3GHz in June, I am just letting you know that Jobs did indeed update his statement.
February 16th this year titled "IBM reveals chip process trinity".
http://www.techworld.com/news/index....ws&newsid=1035
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
I think they're talking about the 970fx.
BTW, my reading comprehension is just fine. You're the one with the fanboi delusions if you think that IBM exec's statements shed any light on future, unannounced processors.
Fanboi delusions
Your points about the 975 being vapore are cogent, but the original G5 was also vaporware right up until the point it was announced and subsequently released. I guess time will tell who is right. I say that the 975 will be at least announced at WWDC in June.
Originally posted by wizard69
I won't try to pass myself off as qualified to speak on all the merits of PCIe but it is worth waiting for. I just hope that Apple implements more than just a slot for the video card. While we don't want to give up the older PCI technology yet it would be very nice to have atleast two PCIe slots in the new Mac. The thought of having two high performance graphics cards in one of thse machines is hot.
I'd be surprised if they put more than one PCIe slot in for the first rev, but multiple video cards is a big plus of PCIe over AGP. On the other hand, one of the top end cards is already hot enough, two would be too hot. Literally.
Originally posted by lloyddean
The "Trinity" name may be from this TechWorld article dated
February 16th this year titled "IBM reveals chip process trinity".
http://www.techworld.com/news/index....ws&newsid=1035
Love the last line of that article:
BM's 90nm process has also been remarkably free of the yield problems that affect most chip companies as they introduce a new process, he added.
Spoke too soon, I'd say.
They are not the same thing, though they can talk to each other.
Originally posted by dglow
emig647, are you thinking about PCI-X? AFAIK, PCIe does = PCI Express.
They are not the same thing, though they can talk to each other.
Yah I had my wires crossed... for some reason I kept thinking that the current g5's had pci-express but not pcie... too much programming this weekend
I've had 5 hours of sleep in the last 48 hours... stupid java / swing
Originally posted by wizard69
Trinity or not Apple needs something new. If they come out with another 970FX based tower no matter how fast it is it will be a failure.
I don't quite understand what you mean, wizard. What's so terrible about the 970? If they've gotten higher clocked yields up, I don't see what the problem is.
Doc Link
Scroll down to the "IBM Power5/Power5+" section. I found this part most interesting:
According to IBM indicated that, the Power5 time arteries will be situated between 1.6GHz to 2GHz, next year will promote 90nm system regulation according to the Power4+ pattern Power5+, when the arteries might arrive 3GHz. IBM estimated 1.6GHz Power5 may achieve 1.3GHz Power4 two time of potency. Moreover, IBM as the foundation constructs the larger-scale multi-processor system take Power5, PowerPC 975 also directly continues to use the Power5 core. But, was opposite with initially the Power4 strategy, Power5 as soon as will start by the lower step server primarily, in the future only then gradually to extend to the high step server. Behind this represents strategy transition, worth noting.
To me it sounds like IBM will be focusing on the 975 first. IBM offered the Power 4 in high end servers first, then the 970 in their low-end servers. One could take the above statement to mean that they will bring out the Low end server (975 based?) and then the higher end (Power 5).
In fact, I could swear that I saw an article for new servers from IBM with a power 5 based chip in it.
The article also talks about several other features of the Power5 family that are interesting.
Now I guess they should have banned me rather than just shut off posting priviledges, because kickaha and Amorph definitely aren't going to like being called to task when they thought they had it all ignored *cough* *cough* I mean under control. Just a couple o' tools.
Don't worry, as soon as my work resetting my posts is done I'll disappear forever.
The 970 and the FX would be fantastic in a iMac or other consumer Mac. It will be lacking in another go around of the Tower, so what I'm trying to say is that Apple has the makings of an excellent low end processor but the high end is a bit underserved by it.
Dave
Originally posted by Big Mac
I don't quite understand what you mean, wizard. What's so terrible about the 970? If they've gotten higher clocked yields up, I don't see what the problem is.
Originally posted by Existence
Prices
$1999
$2899
$3499
Ugh. I hope those prices aren't right.
But I'm a software engineer who works in a Windows centric shop and has been an Apple owner since 1984. The eMac and iMac are too closed for my taste. I've put new video, memory, hard drive, and optical drive in my B&W G3; about the only upgrade I haven't made is a processor swap. I'm looking at a (hopefully) dual 975, PCIe machine to be serviceable for 5 or so years. If Apple pushes the bar of entry into the "good" machines that high, I may fall off the bandwagon and enter the world of beige boxes and frequent motherboard swaps, etc., etc.
Maybe other "prosumers" are going to laptops, or Apple will make the iMacs beefy enough to appeal to others, but I REALLY want a new PMac. I hope Apple doesn't price the next gen PMacs out of the prosumer hobbyist market.
- Jasen.
Originally posted by Neruda
Fanboi delusions
Your points about the 975 being vapore are cogent, but the original G5 was also vaporware right up until the point it was announced and subsequently released. I guess time will tell who is right. I say that the 975 will be at least announced at WWDC in June.
Hold on... we knew plenty about the 970 by January '03, but the Apple G5 machines weren't released until June '03. We had photos of the chip (with feathers!), data sheets, all kinds of information on the chip from IBM, altho nothing from Apple. Some folks still thought Apple would switch to the Itanic, right up to the day that the G5 came out.
By contrast, we know virtually nothing about the 975 at this point. Even the part number is only a rumor.
Originally posted by jasenj1
Ugh. I hope those prices aren't right.
But I'm a software engineer who works in a Windows centric shop and has been an Apple owner since 1984. The eMac and iMac are too closed for my taste. I've put new video, memory, hard drive, and optical drive in my B&W G3; about the only upgrade I haven't made is a processor swap. I'm looking at a (hopefully) dual 975, PCIe machine to be serviceable for 5 or so years. If Apple pushes the bar of entry into the "good" machines that high, I may fall off the bandwagon and enter the world of beige boxes and frequent motherboard swaps, etc., etc.
Maybe other "prosumers" are going to laptops, or Apple will make the iMacs beefy enough to appeal to others, but I REALLY want a new PMac. I hope Apple doesn't price the next gen PMacs out of the prosumer hobbyist market.
- Jasen.
I wouldn't worry about those prices too much... they don't really compute any ways... I think he was just joking.
Think about the ratio... if it goes dual 2.2, dual 2.6, dual 3.0... the ratio's are completely wrong...
Right now you can get a dual 1.8 for 2500, and a dual 2 for 3k. retail that is. (since you're a software engineer you should be able to slide into getting them cheaper
If the configs I mentioned above are correct... why would the dual3 go up 500 and the dual 2.6 go up 400?? Graphics Card?
I seriously doubt apple would release a top machine for that price before build to order options have been selected. They wouldn't sell that many... I know I sure in the hell wouldn't buy one for that much. And I definitely wouldn't buy mid line... I'm actually in the same boat you are... I'm a software engineer and I'm sick of windows machines. I've used macs since 93 and want to develop on them full time.
Even with the discount 3500 isn't WAY too high and apple knows it.
Originally posted by emig647
...Even with the discount 3500 isn't WAY too high and apple knows it.
I would hope that Apple realizes that the low end PM is too high as well. Currently at $1799, a $200 price increase would be hard to sell. In todays market it really needs to get back down to $1599, the starting price for the Blue and White, Yikes and Sawtooth models. To be more competitive they should really shoot for $1499 or even less, though that would admittedly be pushing it for Apple's marketing strategy. If Apple can't achieve this with the current G5 tower then they need to introduce a new model that will address the lower-end needs of the professional market, such as Graphics production, which needs a lower cost computer but whose needs are not met by the iMac or eMac.