No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides.
How about we look at the rise and nature of conservative talk radio, television and books?*
Hell, even if the claim that mainstream media is liberal media, it only drives the point home more.
*And before we start getting predictable posts: Air America is a response that emulates the belligerent character of right-wing talk radio, and franken's whole book is a satire of right-wing commentary.
Is that so? Please link to documented reports of the rising tide of violence against these US citizens who choose to disagree with Bush policy?
No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides. To deny that is to lie. While it's quite easy to point out the escalating level of verbal bashing being put out by the left and right, I challenge you to prove your claim there is a rising tide of violence becoming committed against those on the left by the right. You're making a stretch.
Let's start with the rhetoric that underlies the atmosphere of violence.
"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." (at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02/26/2002)
Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be.
I'm going to tell you is what's good for Al Qaeda is good for the Democratic Party in this country today. That's how you boil this down. And it doesn't have to be Al Qaeda. What's good for terrorists is good for John Kerry. All you got to do is check the way they react. [3/15/04]
and
Quote:
So the only real question is, if Al Qaeda's active and capable, what are they going to do? Because we know what they want: they want Kerry, they want the Democrats in power. They'd love that -- I mean, based simply on what they're saying and how they're reacting to what happened in Spain. I'm not guessing. [3/15/04]
The next five years will determine what kind of world his children and grandchildren inherit, he said. And he doesn't "trust" any of the nine Democratic presidential candidates to secure that future.
Miller is not alone, though some are more sanguine when it comes to evaluating the roster of contenders. Here's a note I got recently from a friend and former Delta Force member, who has been observing American politics from the trenches: "These bastards like Clark and Kerry and that incipient ass, Dean, and Gephardt and Kucinich and that absolute mental midget Sharpton, race baiter, should all be lined up and shot.
In case your wondering, Ms. Parker finds that "a little emotional".
There were, and are, "two incompatible moral visions for this country. We had to settle it then. We're going to have to settle it now. I hope not with blood, not with guns, but we're going to have to settle it nonetheless. The good news is that I think our side is finally ready to settle it. Roll up its sleeves, take off its jacket, and get a little bloody. Spill a little blood. We'll settle it. And we'll win. And then there's no holding us back."
And here are some snippets from good old Sean Hannity:
Quote:
HANNITY: (to attorney Stanley Cohen) "Is it you hate this president or that you hate America?" (4/30/03)
HANNITY: "Governor, why wouldn't anyone want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, unless they detested their own country or were ignorant of its greatness?" (6/12/03)
HANNITY: "You could explain something about your magazine, [the Nation]. Lisa Featherstone writing about the hate America march, the [anti-war] march that took place over the weekend..." (1/22/03)
HANNITY: "'I hate America.' This is the extreme left. There is a portion of the left -- not everybody who's left -- that does hate this country and blame this country for the ills of the world..." (1/23/02)
HANNITY: (speaking to Sara Flounders co-director of the International Action Center) "You don't like this country, do you? You don't -- you think this is an evil country. By your description of it right here, you think it's a bad country." (9/25/01)
I could go on like this ad nauseam, but you get the point.
Everyone quoted here is a national figure or as access to mainstream media outlets.
Moving on, we have overt threats against individuals, such as 9/11 commissioner Jamie Gorelick:
Quote:
amie Gorelick, a member of the commission investigating the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, said Saturday that she received death threats this week after a number of conservatives alleged that her former work in the Justice Department may have contributed to failures leading to the attacks.
Advocates from Casa de Maryland said Impallaria turned on one of their lobbyists in the hallway, questioning her immigration status.
"He called me an illegal and said, 'You are probably one of those who broke the law,' " said Natali Fani, 23, a Latina lobbyist for the Takoma Park-based advocacy group. "He was pointing his finger right in my face, and he was yelling. It was really ugly."
Jamie Kendrick, a union leader working with the group, said he intervened, only to have McDonough push him in the hallway of the Lowe House Office Building.
"He physically shoved me aside," said Kendrick, executive director of the Service Employees International Union Maryland-DC state council. "It was kind of surreal. I have been doing this for eight to 12 years and have never seen a delegate come out of a hearing loaded for bear like that, and certainly never saw a delegate physically accost a member of the public like that."
Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, an SF gallery owner got beat up for showing the wrong painting:
Quote:
A Bay Area woman is recovering after being physically attacked for her artwork.
Lori Haigh owns an art gallery in San Francisco's North Beach.
She had been getting threatening calls. And now, someone hit her, giving her a black eye -- all because of some paintings.
The paintings show American soldiers torturing naked Iraqis.
The owner says she cannot believe she was attacked, but is now too scared to keep her gallery open.
San Francisco police say they are looking for suspects.
I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:
Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican party?
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.
Even though the ads on Air America are about the most annoying ads I've ever heard, I can still listen to Franken's show. But Randi Rhodes is completely unlistenable. Just unbearable. I can't make it through 5 minutes.
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.
Nick
So apparently "leftist hate speech" is largely about calling the right "fascists" or using "Hitler" in the same sentence. That, or something along the lines of "Man, I wish that asshole would just die already". Given the examples of the article, it is also a bit thin on the ground. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the whole premise of the article, outing leftist "hate speech" that apparently goes unremarked, is a stretch.
And this is offered up as the "reciprocal" speech to the now routine notion of the the right that:
-- The left is traitorous, treasonous, and in league with terrorists. Given that we are actually at war with terrorists, this is akin to calling people Hitler in 1942, a little more likely to have actual consequences than calling someone Hitler now.
-- The left is fundamentally illegitimate, as in not really American and not prepared to defend the country, so that literally any means of avoiding Democratic rule is permitted. Something like how Bush has asserted the WOT as the answer to every question about extra-legal means, defeating Kerry becomes a matter of survival for the country, thus, whatever it takes.
-- If it takes a blood bath, let's get it over with. Predicated on one and two above, it follows that the war for the soul and survival of the USA may involve some shooting, just as the founding fathers intended. This kind of talk is endemic to a right wing that thinks in terms of millennial crisis, external threat as a unifying agent, black and white morality, and the strong hand of discipline and control.
By the way, the bloodbath quote is from Governor Ronald Reagan in re civil disobedience in Berkeley . Heart and soul of the party, right?
So of course it's possible to find intemperate speech from people of the left. They will say things like, "I think Bush is a jackass. I think the Republicans are a bunch of jack-booted thugs (although that one seemed to have been monopolized by republican members of congress sympathetic to violent military groups and their struggle against federal tyranny during the Clinton administration), I wish Ashcroft would die, anybody but Bush".
But there is a difference in kind to the rhetoric of the right. It is of a piece, and it leads to action.
I, for one, haven't forgotten the spectacle of the mob of thugs sent by Tom deLay to Florida to intimidate the people working on the recount. It was a shocking scene, but so a part of what has become business as usual for the Republicans that it was barely remarked upon, and then only in the context of sore loser Dems.
Death threats, book burnings, physical intimidation, clinic bombings, para-military nut-jobs, brutally intolerant radio hosts who call for the death of entire groups of people, television shows cancelled, concerts cancelled, meetings and rallies cancelled, activists on "no-fly" lists, the steady stream of email to liberal columnists and commentators ("You peece of shit you arnt really a American maybe a bulet will teach you to love this country you pig), God's will and the final battle.
And someone saying that Bush is a fascist offsets all of this, makes it tit for tat. Everybody does it, politics as usual, nothing to see here.
Here's a simple test. Go to San Francisco, go to a bar, hell, go to a gay bar. Strike up a conversation in which it become evident that you are a die-hard Republican Bush supporter. People will call you a ninny, or try to talk you out of it, or shun you. Someone might even bore you to tears with a lecture about how "people like you are ruining the country".
Now go to a blue collar bar (like I have), in, say, Omaha, or anywhere in Texas, or Toledo, or Arizona. Let it be known that you're a serious leftist, tax and spend liberal, income redistribution, the whole nine yards. Savor the air of menace. Realize that unless you shut your mouth, you have a pretty good chance of getting your ass kicked.
And that is what this is really all about, at the end of the day. The kind of people who tend to ally themselves with which politics.
The Republican party has become the party of ass kicking. The party of "somebody needs to teach that faggot a lesson". The party of "maybe a little torture is what those rag heads had coming". The party of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", the party of the end times.
And the national rhetoric reflects that. The itchy trigger finger. The sense that maybe it's time to clean house.
And of course for the vast majority of Republicans that's all it is, rhetoric. Just the taunting and threats of a bully who's not really ready to throw down.
But, you know, "we're at war". "Jesus is coming". "God hates it when the secularists win". And Rush, and Savage, and Dr. Laura, and Coulter, and Fox, they're egging you on. They're telling you you're right. These fags that you've heard about, these pussies that would piss on the graves of our brave boys, that would force your children to be gay, that hate America-- why wouldn't you take matters into your own hands? Isn't the punishment treason death? Aren't those the wages of sin?
But it's OK. Franken called Rush a big fat idiot. Balance is restored.
Adda, It's a little obvious that you don't desire to be convinced away from your view. I could, and have in the past, typed pages of pages of "proof" that is often discounted or ignored by someone such as yourself. Heck you've already discredited the one I just posted. So enjoy your view and believe it is only a one way street. There are plenty of other people out there who are a little more open to the reality of the situation.
Adda, It's a little obvious that you don't desire to be convinced away from your view. I could, and have in the past, typed pages of pages of "proof" that is often discounted or ignored by someone such as yourself. Heck you've already discredited the one I just posted. So enjoy your view and believe it is only a one way street. There are plenty of other people out there who are a little more open to the reality of the situation.
Nick
Nick, I would be happy to be persuaded by having it demonstrated that the left traffics in a consistent, widely disseminated rhetoric of:
1) the fundamental illegitimacy of the Republican party
2) the anti-Americanism of the Republican party
3) the treason (punishable by death, remember) of the Republican party
4) the delight the Republican party takes in damage to America and the
death of its fighting forces.
5) the Republican party's approval of terrorism and terrorist's approval of the
Republican party.
6) the use of violence or the threat of violence by forces of the left to silence
dissent from the right.
Linking to the odd cranky liberal calling Bush names doesn't cut it.
I'm talking about a consistent, broadly articulated world view that doesn't allow for opposition as a legitimate force.
My entire point is that isn't a two way street. Pretending that it is is just another technique for legitimizing extremist rhetoric and action.
I will certainly acknowledge reciprocal politics in many areas, such as corruption, tainted fund raising, self-serving speechifying, hypocrisy, log-rolling, pork filled legislation, etc. Left and right, it's politics as usual.
I don't, in other words, think that "Republicans are bad and Democrats are good". There is a version of American conservatism that I strongly disagree with yet find perfectly respectable. Small government, individual liberty, fiscal prudence, reluctance to indulge in foreign entanglements, hostility to "income redistribution", etc. Not my thing, but I can see how people of good will would come to this set of principles.
But the rhetoric I'm talking about is something different. It has real blood in it's eye. I think it is possible to decry the excesses of right wing thuggery without declaring the Republican party, or conservative values, null and void.
I would think that you would be more interested in repudiating this ugly turn in your own house than looking for weak examples that purport to balance the scales. Every single utterance and action does not have a mirror image.
No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.
Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."
Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.
No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.
Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."
Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.
Nick
It's not that I don't give these examples credence, it's that they are materially different than what I'm talking about.
For instance, your link to treason concerns the supreme court's decision in re the 2000 election. The author is concerned with the torturous legal reasoning the court used in justifying stopping the recount, and regards it as a grave blow to constitutional government, an opinion shared by quite a few legal scholars.
Conversely, the current right wing bandying about of "treason" seems to center on anyone criticizing the president, or criticizing America's behavior, or simply being "a liberal" since in the modern parlance being a liberal is tantamount to being a traitor.
Perhaps you could link to a reasoned legal argument as to how expounding liberal views is treasonous, which would be the appropriate analogue to the Nation article.
As far as calling the right haters, are you even looking at the right wing quotes I've been citing? If the right wants to call the left a bunch of hypocrites, or cry-babies, or no-nothings, or, yes, haters, fine and dandy by me. that really is politics as usual.
But that's not what I'm talking about. Can you really not see the difference? The rabbi is musing about spilling a little blood to set things right. Michael Savage believes in our hearts we want to indiscriminately nuke an Arab country. Ann Coulter thinks shooting John Walker Linhdh would serve as an example to liberals, putting them on notice that they, too, could be shot. Rush is absolutely equating the Democratic party with al Qaeda.
The Denver Post columnist is somewhat sympathetically citing a letter writer that thinks liberals should be lined up and shot.
And that's the stuff that goes on and on. And you think accusing Bush of failing to stop 9/11 when he might of had the chance is "the same". A specific critique, even if wrong, of failed policy, of missed opportunities, is somehow the same as calling for blood of liberals.
I don't know how else to say it. If you can't distinguish between "Liberals are traitorous dogs and al Qaeda wants Kerry for president", or, say, a gallery owner getting her face punched in because she showed the wrong painting, and "Bush has done a terrible job of prosecuting the the on terror and should be voted out" or "we hate that asshole let's work to defeat him" then, I guess, you can't or won't acknowledge my point.
I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:
Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican par
Well it kinda makes sense doesn't it? We're the people that want peace. Can you imagine a bunch of peace activists beating the shit out of a Republican? That'd be funny. They'd probably hit like girls. Oops did I say that?
Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.
Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
I love posts like this. So wrong, so blinkered. Hilarious.
You ARE sitting over a huge blob of oil. That's for starters. All oil is priced in dollars, hence the word 'petrodollar.' For someone to trade in energy, they need dollars, and when oil is pumped out of the ground a unique magic trick is created. Inflation-free money is created and pumped into the US economy. Even if it's Saudis selling oil to the French someone had to get hold of dollars. There ain't anything else super-special about America. It's easier to be a millionaire in America, and it's not your fucking tax system that makes it so.
In those 'socialist' countries you know so little about (I presume you mean Europe), more people have a higher standard of living, better access to good healthcare and they say they are happier then people in the US say they are. There is much smaller homicide rate, infant mortality is lower, the press is more free, women have a shot at leading their countries, we're less obese, we're now taller (better food), you can buy a beer years younger, drugs are easily available but less of a problem ... and we get to take longer holidays to enjoy our short lives. But we get taxed more.
Please pick one of the above and I'll find the statistic for you.
I'll keep the tax thanks; money does not make you happy. The above do.
Are those countries 'better' then the US? Well, I'd never say that. I DO think it's fair to say that you get told a bunch of bullshit about the rest of the world and about how fucking great America is though.
Oh, and I AM a millionaire by the way bubba, a real live one; capitalism Europe style seems to work for me. As in I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me.
Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.
Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?
Dave
Hey Dave--
Just curious why you think you get to define what America "really" is, thereby rendering "liberals" as people who should move somewhere else.
How about this--why don't you move elsewhere? Somewhere where unfettered capitalism (and you've never seen it, it's pretty ferocious) is in full cry. Say one of the developing regions of the world, where profit ranks above human life. Low taxes though!
That way, we can start to clear out the mindlessly greedy people whose antipathy to taxes and social services stand in the way of America having decent health care, access to top notch education, an infra-structure that isn't starting to crumble, and national policies that aren't completely in hock to the corporations that pay for our political system.
Because your philosophy strikes me as un-American, un-civic, and unpatriotic. I think you should get out. Really. Get the hell out of my country. People like you screw it up for everybody else.
You guys are SO right! I'm ashamed I've been so wrong for so long.
From this point forward I vow to fight for the following:
- Limit or cap what people can make each year. Anything over or above lets say $100,000 per year shall simply be taken from all individuals and redistributed to others - better yet, why not anything over $50,000!
- Freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with my liberal agenda.
- Twelfth trimester abortions should now be legal and government funded. This way, the 'terrible twos' don't have to be so terrible after all. A woman's right to choose will be the corner stone of the new world order.
- Smokers will now be shot on sight - unless said smoker is smoking pot or crack.
- Three martini lunches call for jail time - two joint coffee breaks are just fine.
- Sexual harassment will be reclassified as acceptable behavior depending on the persons ideology.
- Abolishment of all judeo christian religions - We just don't like em and they have no place in our new more tolerant world.
- Death penalty abolished (except for abortions and smokers).
- Under our new single party systems - election days should be replaced with reeducation days - lets round up all those wrong thinking individuals - do your duty America.
- Cutting the head off someone you don't like is a-okay! Just don't put underwear on before hand cause then your just asking for trouble!
Boy wouldn't this be nice - well we can dream can't we...
Dave
P.S. Come on folks don't let me steal all the lime light - The new liberal party is always looking for new and creative ways to improve the lives of everyone - wether they like it or not.
You guys are SO right! I'm ashamed I've been so wrong for so long.
From this point forward I vow to fight for the following:
- Limit or cap what people can make each year. Anything over or above lets say $100,000 per year shall simply be taken from all individuals and redistributed to others - better yet, why not anything over $50,000!
- Freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with my liberal agenda.
- Twelfth trimester abortions should now be legal and government funded. This way, the 'terrible twos' don't have to be so terrible after all. A woman's right to choose will be the corner stone of the new world order.
- Smokers will now be shot on sight - unless said smoker is smoking pot or crack.
- Three martini lunches call for jail time - two joint coffee breaks are just fine.
- Sexual harassment will be reclassified as acceptable behavior depending on the persons ideology.
- Abolishment of all judeo christian religions - We just don't like em and they have no place in our new more tolerant world.
- Death penalty abolished (except for abortions and smokers).
- Under our new single party systems - election days should be replaced with reeducation days - lets round up all those wrong thinking individuals - do your duty America.
Boy wouldn't this be nice - well we can dream can't we...
Just for a laugh, could you explain what your response had to do with my post?
Be a dear.
After reading your post I saw the light and changed my evil ways. I now fully understand that US just got lucky with those 'petrol dollars' and there isn't anything special with the way our country was founded or is run - Boy, with all of the older more established and wiser countries in this world it sure was a lucky break that US currency was chosen to drive that industry. Question I have is why with the world being filled such superior countries, why didn't they see this coming and why haven't they simply stopped it? Everyone on holiday that month?
Oh BTW if I'm not prying, where did you make your millions and why haven't you given more of it away?? Isn't being a millionaire a bit excessive?? Other people are dying in this world and your money can prevent it now! Cough it up you greedy man - You clearly have no problem demanding the same of others and being a millionaire you must 'doing just fine' so lets crack open that little piggy bank of yours and empty it till it HURTS (really hurts)!
When your net worth gets down to the national average for whatever country you live in I let you stop - but not a moment sooner.
Comments
Originally posted by rageous
No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides.
How about we look at the rise and nature of conservative talk radio, television and books?*
Hell, even if the claim that mainstream media is liberal media, it only drives the point home more.
*And before we start getting predictable posts: Air America is a response that emulates the belligerent character of right-wing talk radio, and franken's whole book is a satire of right-wing commentary.
Originally posted by rageous
Is that so? Please link to documented reports of the rising tide of violence against these US citizens who choose to disagree with Bush policy?
No doubt the level of verbal ugliness has been ramped up by BOTH sides. To deny that is to lie. While it's quite easy to point out the escalating level of verbal bashing being put out by the left and right, I challenge you to prove your claim there is a rising tide of violence becoming committed against those on the left by the right. You're making a stretch.
Let's start with the rhetoric that underlies the atmosphere of violence.
Here's Ann Coulter:
Among other gems:
"We need to execute people like John Walker in order to physically intimidate liberals, by making them realize that they can be killed, too. Otherwise, they will turn out to be outright traitors." (at the Conservative Political Action Conference, 02/26/2002)
Here's Michael Savage:
Right now, even people sitting on the fence would like George Bush to drop a nuclear weapon on an Arab country. They don't even care which one it would be.
Here's Rush:
I'm going to tell you is what's good for Al Qaeda is good for the Democratic Party in this country today. That's how you boil this down. And it doesn't have to be Al Qaeda. What's good for terrorists is good for John Kerry. All you got to do is check the way they react. [3/15/04]
and
So the only real question is, if Al Qaeda's active and capable, what are they going to do? Because we know what they want: they want Kerry, they want the Democrats in power. They'd love that -- I mean, based simply on what they're saying and how they're reacting to what happened in Spain. I'm not guessing. [3/15/04]
Here's Kathleen Parker, a regular conservative columnist for the Boulder News:
The next five years will determine what kind of world his children and grandchildren inherit, he said. And he doesn't "trust" any of the nine Democratic presidential candidates to secure that future.
Miller is not alone, though some are more sanguine when it comes to evaluating the roster of contenders. Here's a note I got recently from a friend and former Delta Force member, who has been observing American politics from the trenches: "These bastards like Clark and Kerry and that incipient ass, Dean, and Gephardt and Kucinich and that absolute mental midget Sharpton, race baiter, should all be lined up and shot.
In case your wondering, Ms. Parker finds that "a little emotional".
Here's Rabbi Daniel Lappin, nationally syndicated radio talk show host and author:
There were, and are, "two incompatible moral visions for this country. We had to settle it then. We're going to have to settle it now. I hope not with blood, not with guns, but we're going to have to settle it nonetheless. The good news is that I think our side is finally ready to settle it. Roll up its sleeves, take off its jacket, and get a little bloody. Spill a little blood. We'll settle it. And we'll win. And then there's no holding us back."
And here are some snippets from good old Sean Hannity:
HANNITY: (to attorney Stanley Cohen) "Is it you hate this president or that you hate America?" (4/30/03)
HANNITY: "Governor, why wouldn't anyone want to say the Pledge of Allegiance, unless they detested their own country or were ignorant of its greatness?" (6/12/03)
HANNITY: "You could explain something about your magazine, [the Nation]. Lisa Featherstone writing about the hate America march, the [anti-war] march that took place over the weekend..." (1/22/03)
HANNITY: "'I hate America.' This is the extreme left. There is a portion of the left -- not everybody who's left -- that does hate this country and blame this country for the ills of the world..." (1/23/02)
HANNITY: (speaking to Sara Flounders co-director of the International Action Center) "You don't like this country, do you? You don't -- you think this is an evil country. By your description of it right here, you think it's a bad country." (9/25/01)
I could go on like this ad nauseam, but you get the point.
Everyone quoted here is a national figure or as access to mainstream media outlets.
Moving on, we have overt threats against individuals, such as 9/11 commissioner Jamie Gorelick:
amie Gorelick, a member of the commission investigating the terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001, said Saturday that she received death threats this week after a number of conservatives alleged that her former work in the Justice Department may have contributed to failures leading to the attacks.
Things are apparently getting ugly in Maryland
Advocates from Casa de Maryland said Impallaria turned on one of their lobbyists in the hallway, questioning her immigration status.
"He called me an illegal and said, 'You are probably one of those who broke the law,' " said Natali Fani, 23, a Latina lobbyist for the Takoma Park-based advocacy group. "He was pointing his finger right in my face, and he was yelling. It was really ugly."
Jamie Kendrick, a union leader working with the group, said he intervened, only to have McDonough push him in the hallway of the Lowe House Office Building.
"He physically shoved me aside," said Kendrick, executive director of the Service Employees International Union Maryland-DC state council. "It was kind of surreal. I have been doing this for eight to 12 years and have never seen a delegate come out of a hearing loaded for bear like that, and certainly never saw a delegate physically accost a member of the public like that."
Meanwhile, in my neck of the woods, an SF gallery owner got beat up for showing the wrong painting:
A Bay Area woman is recovering after being physically attacked for her artwork.
Lori Haigh owns an art gallery in San Francisco's North Beach.
She had been getting threatening calls. And now, someone hit her, giving her a black eye -- all because of some paintings.
The paintings show American soldiers torturing naked Iraqis.
The owner says she cannot believe she was attacked, but is now too scared to keep her gallery open.
San Francisco police say they are looking for suspects.
I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:
Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican party?
Jeff Jacoby even writes a yearly column about it. You can pick a year and pick your favorite from the left.
Leftist Hate Speech
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.
Even though the ads on Air America are about the most annoying ads I've ever heard, I can still listen to Franken's show. But Randi Rhodes is completely unlistenable. Just unbearable. I can't make it through 5 minutes.
BTW, Randi Rhodes pwnz
Originally posted by trumptman
As he said, these aren't hard to find be they on the left or right.
Jeff Jacoby even writes a yearly column about it. You can pick a year and pick your favorite from the left.
Leftist Hate Speech
Or you could save yourself some time and just listen to Randy Rhodes on AirAmerica for about 30 minutes.
Nick
So apparently "leftist hate speech" is largely about calling the right "fascists" or using "Hitler" in the same sentence. That, or something along the lines of "Man, I wish that asshole would just die already". Given the examples of the article, it is also a bit thin on the ground. In fact, I would go so far as to say that the whole premise of the article, outing leftist "hate speech" that apparently goes unremarked, is a stretch.
And this is offered up as the "reciprocal" speech to the now routine notion of the the right that:
-- The left is traitorous, treasonous, and in league with terrorists. Given that we are actually at war with terrorists, this is akin to calling people Hitler in 1942, a little more likely to have actual consequences than calling someone Hitler now.
-- The left is fundamentally illegitimate, as in not really American and not prepared to defend the country, so that literally any means of avoiding Democratic rule is permitted. Something like how Bush has asserted the WOT as the answer to every question about extra-legal means, defeating Kerry becomes a matter of survival for the country, thus, whatever it takes.
-- If it takes a blood bath, let's get it over with. Predicated on one and two above, it follows that the war for the soul and survival of the USA may involve some shooting, just as the founding fathers intended. This kind of talk is endemic to a right wing that thinks in terms of millennial crisis, external threat as a unifying agent, black and white morality, and the strong hand of discipline and control.
By the way, the bloodbath quote is from Governor Ronald Reagan in re civil disobedience in Berkeley . Heart and soul of the party, right?
So of course it's possible to find intemperate speech from people of the left. They will say things like, "I think Bush is a jackass. I think the Republicans are a bunch of jack-booted thugs (although that one seemed to have been monopolized by republican members of congress sympathetic to violent military groups and their struggle against federal tyranny during the Clinton administration), I wish Ashcroft would die, anybody but Bush".
But there is a difference in kind to the rhetoric of the right. It is of a piece, and it leads to action.
I, for one, haven't forgotten the spectacle of the mob of thugs sent by Tom deLay to Florida to intimidate the people working on the recount. It was a shocking scene, but so a part of what has become business as usual for the Republicans that it was barely remarked upon, and then only in the context of sore loser Dems.
Death threats, book burnings, physical intimidation, clinic bombings, para-military nut-jobs, brutally intolerant radio hosts who call for the death of entire groups of people, television shows cancelled, concerts cancelled, meetings and rallies cancelled, activists on "no-fly" lists, the steady stream of email to liberal columnists and commentators ("You peece of shit you arnt really a American maybe a bulet will teach you to love this country you pig), God's will and the final battle.
And someone saying that Bush is a fascist offsets all of this, makes it tit for tat. Everybody does it, politics as usual, nothing to see here.
Here's a simple test. Go to San Francisco, go to a bar, hell, go to a gay bar. Strike up a conversation in which it become evident that you are a die-hard Republican Bush supporter. People will call you a ninny, or try to talk you out of it, or shun you. Someone might even bore you to tears with a lecture about how "people like you are ruining the country".
Now go to a blue collar bar (like I have), in, say, Omaha, or anywhere in Texas, or Toledo, or Arizona. Let it be known that you're a serious leftist, tax and spend liberal, income redistribution, the whole nine yards. Savor the air of menace. Realize that unless you shut your mouth, you have a pretty good chance of getting your ass kicked.
And that is what this is really all about, at the end of the day. The kind of people who tend to ally themselves with which politics.
The Republican party has become the party of ass kicking. The party of "somebody needs to teach that faggot a lesson". The party of "maybe a little torture is what those rag heads had coming". The party of "kill 'em all and let God sort 'em out", the party of the end times.
And the national rhetoric reflects that. The itchy trigger finger. The sense that maybe it's time to clean house.
And of course for the vast majority of Republicans that's all it is, rhetoric. Just the taunting and threats of a bully who's not really ready to throw down.
But, you know, "we're at war". "Jesus is coming". "God hates it when the secularists win". And Rush, and Savage, and Dr. Laura, and Coulter, and Fox, they're egging you on. They're telling you you're right. These fags that you've heard about, these pussies that would piss on the graves of our brave boys, that would force your children to be gay, that hate America-- why wouldn't you take matters into your own hands? Isn't the punishment treason death? Aren't those the wages of sin?
But it's OK. Franken called Rush a big fat idiot. Balance is restored.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
Adda, It's a little obvious that you don't desire to be convinced away from your view. I could, and have in the past, typed pages of pages of "proof" that is often discounted or ignored by someone such as yourself. Heck you've already discredited the one I just posted. So enjoy your view and believe it is only a one way street. There are plenty of other people out there who are a little more open to the reality of the situation.
Nick
Nick, I would be happy to be persuaded by having it demonstrated that the left traffics in a consistent, widely disseminated rhetoric of:
1) the fundamental illegitimacy of the Republican party
2) the anti-Americanism of the Republican party
3) the treason (punishable by death, remember) of the Republican party
4) the delight the Republican party takes in damage to America and the
death of its fighting forces.
5) the Republican party's approval of terrorism and terrorist's approval of the
Republican party.
6) the use of violence or the threat of violence by forces of the left to silence
dissent from the right.
Linking to the odd cranky liberal calling Bush names doesn't cut it.
I'm talking about a consistent, broadly articulated world view that doesn't allow for opposition as a legitimate force.
My entire point is that isn't a two way street. Pretending that it is is just another technique for legitimizing extremist rhetoric and action.
I will certainly acknowledge reciprocal politics in many areas, such as corruption, tainted fund raising, self-serving speechifying, hypocrisy, log-rolling, pork filled legislation, etc. Left and right, it's politics as usual.
I don't, in other words, think that "Republicans are bad and Democrats are good". There is a version of American conservatism that I strongly disagree with yet find perfectly respectable. Small government, individual liberty, fiscal prudence, reluctance to indulge in foreign entanglements, hostility to "income redistribution", etc. Not my thing, but I can see how people of good will would come to this set of principles.
But the rhetoric I'm talking about is something different. It has real blood in it's eye. I think it is possible to decry the excesses of right wing thuggery without declaring the Republican party, or conservative values, null and void.
I would think that you would be more interested in repudiating this ugly turn in your own house than looking for weak examples that purport to balance the scales. Every single utterance and action does not have a mirror image.
Why would it?
Originally posted by addabox
Nick, I would be happy to be persuaded by having it demonstrated that the left traffics in a consistent, widely disseminated rhetoric of:
1) the fundamental illegitimacy of the Republican party
You're right. No one has ever called Bush an illegitimate president.
No one has ever used the word treason either.
No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.
Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."
Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.
Nick
Originally posted by trumptman
You're right. No one has ever called Bush an illegitimate president.
No one has ever used the word treason either.
No one claims that the Republican party hates anything. Of course a Google search doesn't seem to turn up anything.
Likewise Michael Moore never made a picture claiming that Bush allowed 9/11. Likewise Al Franken never wrote a book with a chapter called "Operation Ignore."
Again I could go on and on as well. But we will see if you even give any of these any credence.
Nick
It's not that I don't give these examples credence, it's that they are materially different than what I'm talking about.
For instance, your link to treason concerns the supreme court's decision in re the 2000 election. The author is concerned with the torturous legal reasoning the court used in justifying stopping the recount, and regards it as a grave blow to constitutional government, an opinion shared by quite a few legal scholars.
Conversely, the current right wing bandying about of "treason" seems to center on anyone criticizing the president, or criticizing America's behavior, or simply being "a liberal" since in the modern parlance being a liberal is tantamount to being a traitor.
Perhaps you could link to a reasoned legal argument as to how expounding liberal views is treasonous, which would be the appropriate analogue to the Nation article.
As far as calling the right haters, are you even looking at the right wing quotes I've been citing? If the right wants to call the left a bunch of hypocrites, or cry-babies, or no-nothings, or, yes, haters, fine and dandy by me. that really is politics as usual.
But that's not what I'm talking about. Can you really not see the difference? The rabbi is musing about spilling a little blood to set things right. Michael Savage believes in our hearts we want to indiscriminately nuke an Arab country. Ann Coulter thinks shooting John Walker Linhdh would serve as an example to liberals, putting them on notice that they, too, could be shot. Rush is absolutely equating the Democratic party with al Qaeda.
The Denver Post columnist is somewhat sympathetically citing a letter writer that thinks liberals should be lined up and shot.
And that's the stuff that goes on and on. And you think accusing Bush of failing to stop 9/11 when he might of had the chance is "the same". A specific critique, even if wrong, of failed policy, of missed opportunities, is somehow the same as calling for blood of liberals.
I don't know how else to say it. If you can't distinguish between "Liberals are traitorous dogs and al Qaeda wants Kerry for president", or, say, a gallery owner getting her face punched in because she showed the wrong painting, and "Bush has done a terrible job of prosecuting the the on terror and should be voted out" or "we hate that asshole let's work to defeat him" then, I guess, you can't or won't acknowledge my point.
I can keep this up for quite a while, but I would like to ask this of you, Rageous:
Where is the reciprocal leftist rhetoric and action? If it is always "both sides", as you assert, could you link to some nationally syndicated voices of the left that are calling for the death of conservatives, the spilling of blood to cleanse the homeland, the nuking of other countries, the delegitimizing of republican par
Well it kinda makes sense doesn't it? We're the people that want peace. Can you imagine a bunch of peace activists beating the shit out of a Republican?
Originally posted by Wrong Robot
Liberal has become a bad word.
Has become? When was it ever anything else??
Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.
Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?
Dave
Originally posted by DaveGee
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
I love posts like this. So wrong, so blinkered. Hilarious.
You ARE sitting over a huge blob of oil. That's for starters. All oil is priced in dollars, hence the word 'petrodollar.' For someone to trade in energy, they need dollars, and when oil is pumped out of the ground a unique magic trick is created. Inflation-free money is created and pumped into the US economy. Even if it's Saudis selling oil to the French someone had to get hold of dollars. There ain't anything else super-special about America. It's easier to be a millionaire in America, and it's not your fucking tax system that makes it so.
In those 'socialist' countries you know so little about (I presume you mean Europe), more people have a higher standard of living, better access to good healthcare and they say they are happier then people in the US say they are. There is much smaller homicide rate, infant mortality is lower, the press is more free, women have a shot at leading their countries, we're less obese, we're now taller (better food), you can buy a beer years younger, drugs are easily available but less of a problem ... and we get to take longer holidays to enjoy our short lives. But we get taxed more.
Please pick one of the above and I'll find the statistic for you.
I'll keep the tax thanks; money does not make you happy. The above do.
Are those countries 'better' then the US? Well, I'd never say that. I DO think it's fair to say that you get told a bunch of bullshit about the rest of the world and about how fucking great America is though.
Oh, and I AM a millionaire by the way bubba, a real live one; capitalism Europe style seems to work for me. As in I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me.
Originally posted by DaveGee
Has become? When was it ever anything else??
Sorry but I'm posting from a state (NJ) where the glorious liberal gov thinks it's okay to add a special and exclusive tax just for millionaires! Why? Well as McGreedy's ads say - 'because they're doing just fine'... Sorry but that kind of logic has always made my skin crawl. Oh and before anyone asks, NO I'm not a millionaire (but hey some day who knows) either way, to charge people an additional/exclusive tax just because they are 'doing just fine' (and BTW who says they are 'doing just fine' anyway - how the F does McGreedy know?!?! Did he call each and every one of them personally?!?!) Anyway this liberal crap is so.... is so... hell it's just wrong.
Apologies to all you people living in communist or socialist societies - if you like it GREAT but I don't. I like being able to be as successful as I can be and if my future child is so bless he could become a future billionaire - Unless you're sitting over a huge blob of oil there aren't too many other places where people could even dream such a thing.
Libs please don't screw things up here in the US... Why not just move somewhere that is already much further on it's way to your kind of paradise? I could name quite a few places but I'm sure you know them already. You could always come back here for things like clean water, GOOD healthcare and other such 'luxuries'. Oh wait, if you actually lived in one of those places chances are you wouldn't be able to afford to come back here and pay for such niceties.
Hmm maybe you should think about that for a minute. Eh?
Dave
Hey Dave--
Just curious why you think you get to define what America "really" is, thereby rendering "liberals" as people who should move somewhere else.
How about this--why don't you move elsewhere? Somewhere where unfettered capitalism (and you've never seen it, it's pretty ferocious) is in full cry. Say one of the developing regions of the world, where profit ranks above human life. Low taxes though!
That way, we can start to clear out the mindlessly greedy people whose antipathy to taxes and social services stand in the way of America having decent health care, access to top notch education, an infra-structure that isn't starting to crumble, and national policies that aren't completely in hock to the corporations that pay for our political system.
Because your philosophy strikes me as un-American, un-civic, and unpatriotic. I think you should get out. Really. Get the hell out of my country. People like you screw it up for everybody else.
From this point forward I vow to fight for the following:
- Limit or cap what people can make each year. Anything over or above lets say $100,000 per year shall simply be taken from all individuals and redistributed to others - better yet, why not anything over $50,000!
- Freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with my liberal agenda.
- Twelfth trimester abortions should now be legal and government funded. This way, the 'terrible twos' don't have to be so terrible after all. A woman's right to choose will be the corner stone of the new world order.
- Smokers will now be shot on sight - unless said smoker is smoking pot or crack.
- Three martini lunches call for jail time - two joint coffee breaks are just fine.
- Sexual harassment will be reclassified as acceptable behavior depending on the persons ideology.
- Abolishment of all judeo christian religions - We just don't like em and they have no place in our new more tolerant world.
- Death penalty abolished (except for abortions and smokers).
- Under our new single party systems - election days should be replaced with reeducation days - lets round up all those wrong thinking individuals - do your duty America.
- Cutting the head off someone you don't like is a-okay! Just don't put underwear on before hand cause then your just asking for trouble!
Boy wouldn't this be nice - well we can dream can't we...
Dave
P.S. Come on folks don't let me steal all the lime light - The new liberal party is always looking for new and creative ways to improve the lives of everyone - wether they like it or not.
Originally posted by DaveGee
You guys are SO right! I'm ashamed I've been so wrong for so long.
From this point forward I vow to fight for the following:
- Limit or cap what people can make each year. Anything over or above lets say $100,000 per year shall simply be taken from all individuals and redistributed to others - better yet, why not anything over $50,000!
- Freedom of speech for everyone that agrees with my liberal agenda.
- Twelfth trimester abortions should now be legal and government funded. This way, the 'terrible twos' don't have to be so terrible after all. A woman's right to choose will be the corner stone of the new world order.
- Smokers will now be shot on sight - unless said smoker is smoking pot or crack.
- Three martini lunches call for jail time - two joint coffee breaks are just fine.
- Sexual harassment will be reclassified as acceptable behavior depending on the persons ideology.
- Abolishment of all judeo christian religions - We just don't like em and they have no place in our new more tolerant world.
- Death penalty abolished (except for abortions and smokers).
- Under our new single party systems - election days should be replaced with reeducation days - lets round up all those wrong thinking individuals - do your duty America.
Boy wouldn't this be nice - well we can dream can't we...
Dave
Hmmm I think my Troll-o-meter blew a fuse
Originally posted by ericg
Hmmm I think my Troll-o-meter blew a fuse
What you DON'T agree with the new liberal laws of the land? It's the reeducation camp for you buddy.
Be a dear.
Originally posted by Harald
Just for a laugh, could you explain what your response had to do with my post?
Be a dear.
After reading your post I saw the light and changed my evil ways. I now fully understand that US just got lucky with those 'petrol dollars' and there isn't anything special with the way our country was founded or is run - Boy, with all of the older more established and wiser countries in this world it sure was a lucky break that US currency was chosen to drive that industry. Question I have is why with the world being filled such superior countries, why didn't they see this coming and why haven't they simply stopped it? Everyone on holiday that month?
Oh BTW if I'm not prying, where did you make your millions and why haven't you given more of it away?? Isn't being a millionaire a bit excessive?? Other people are dying in this world and your money can prevent it now! Cough it up you greedy man - You clearly have no problem demanding the same of others and being a millionaire you must 'doing just fine' so lets crack open that little piggy bank of yours and empty it till it HURTS (really hurts)!
When your net worth gets down to the national average for whatever country you live in I let you stop - but not a moment sooner.
Dave
Originally posted by DaveGee
What you DON'T agree with the new liberal laws of the land? It's the reeducation camp for you buddy.
And now my Troll-o-meter has a meltdown...