After reading your post I saw the light and changed my evil ways. I now fully understand that US just got lucky with those 'petrol dollars' and there isn't anything special with the way our country was founded or is run - Boy, with all of the older more established and wiser countries in this world it sure was a lucky break that US currency was chosen to drive that industry. Question I have is why with the world being filled such superior countries, why didn't they see this coming and why haven't they simply stopped it? Everyone on holiday that month?
Oh BTW if I'm not prying, where did you make your millions and why haven't you given more of it away?? Isn't being a millionaire a bit excessive?? Other people are dying in this world and your money can prevent it now! Cough it up you greedy man - You clearly have no problem demanding the same of others and being a millionaire you must 'doing just fine' so lets crack open that little piggy bank of yours and empty it till it HURTS (really hurts)!
When your net worth gets down to the national average for whatever country you live in I let you stop - but not a moment sooner.
Oh Dave, you're good value. I like you.
What's funny is that actually went out of my way to say that I wasn't saying 'my' country was better then yours, but you missed that (even better then I thought).
Don't forget that you kicked it off with your tirade about 'liberals' and countries with 'socialist' policies ... but ignore the fact those countries have fewer murders, happier people, *better* health care, fewer people on Prozac, longer holidays and fewer social problems.
But you have a stronger economy and lower taxes. Good for you fella; hope that works out for you. I'll stick with my happier, healthier and safer thing if you don't mind!
What's funny is that actually went out of my way to say that I wasn't saying 'my' country was better then yours, but you missed that (even better then I thought).
Don't forget that you kicked it off with your tirade about 'liberals' and countries with 'socialist' policies ... but ignore the fact those countries have fewer murders, happier people, *better* health care, fewer people on Prozac, longer holidays and fewer social problems.
But you have a stronger economy and lower taxes. Good for you fella; hope that works out for you. I'll stick with my happier, healthier and safer thing if you don't mind!
We can agree to disagree nothing wrong with that. By your own admission your higher taxes pays extortion payments to the undesirable unwashed ghetto folks so they leave you alone. Great, so long as they don't start demanding you up the payoff. And BTW good luck with that and before you say you never said anything like that - these are your words, "I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me."
It's points like this that we'll never agree on....
Punish those who do well or live in an appropriate manner
Reward those who don't.
Sorry but I don't see myself ever agreeing with such ideals...
As for people being happy? Happy is a relative word and state of mind - I'm HAPPY that people in the US are 'less than content' it makes people strive to better their lot in life - you can (and I'm sure will) disagree with me but it's that 'less than content' feeling that has made the US into the most successful in the world. If all the people in europe are content then that's wonderful.
As for **better** healthcare - I'll leave that one alone.
ll keep the tax thanks; money does not make you happy. The above do.
Are those countries 'better' then the US? Well, I'd never say that. I DO think it's fair to say that you get told a bunch of bullshit about the rest of the world and about how fucking great America is though.
Oh, and I AM a millionaire by the way bubba, a real live one; capitalism Europe style seems to work for me. As in I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me.
If F911 is really about the Bush/Suadi connection exclusively then I will be very dissapointed . . . though real, I don't think that that connection is as important to the corrupt decisions that have caracterized this presidency . . or are involved with 911. . . .
Besides Hitchens is right, Clarke says he authorized thse flights out of the US . . . it was a big mistake . . . but I don't thhink that it was a cabal of insiders
But still, Ill see the film before I let a disgruntled hack like Hitchens tell me what to think . . . even if he is eloquent.
MSN has some exclusive video clips from the movie as well as other things. It's interesting to see what hollywood stars went to the premier and are on our side.
If F911 is really about the Bush/Suadi connection exclusively then I will be very dissapointed . . . though real, I don't think that that connection is as important to the corrupt decisions that have caracterized this presidency . . or are involved with 911. . . .
Besides Hitchens is right, Clarke says he authorized thse flights out of the US . . . it was a big mistake . . . but I don't thhink that it was a cabal of insiders
But still, Ill see the film before I let a disgruntled hack like Hitchens tell me what to think . . . even if he is eloquent.
How about a disgruntled, eloquent hack named George Stephanpoulos?
Moore doesn't even claim his film presents the truth.
Quote:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Random House defines "propaganda" as information, rumors, et cetera, deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, et cetera. By that definition, Fahrenheit 911 is propaganda, isn't it?
MOORE: Well, it's an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism, even though those who use the words "fair and balanced" often aren't that, but?
STEPHANOPOULOS: And your goal is to defeat President Bush.
MOORE: I would like to see Mr. Bush removed from the White House.
George even takes Moore apart on the Bin Laudin/Saudi/Bush connection as well. We've even seen the flying out claim asserted in the trailer as well. He doesn't say the entire film is about it, but he does characterize it as "a big chunk."
Quote:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Take the issue of the Saudi planes. You make a big issue, a big chunk in the film about this issue where a few days after Sept. 11, many members of the Osama bin Laden family, Saudi nationals, were taken out of the country. It was helped, arranged by the White House. You suggest it was done when the airspace was closed. You suggest that these people were not screened. And you also [suggest] there's a whole sinister subtext there that this was because of the Bush family ties to the bin Laden family. But the 9/11 commission report found that they didn't fly until the airspace was open, that they were screened by the FBI.
A bit more...
Quote:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but Richard Clarke, who's probably at the top of the White House enemy list, says that it was his decision, he takes responsibility for it. He doesn't think it was a mistake.
MOORE: Right. And he said that he's made mistakes, and he apologized to the 9/11 families for those mistakes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But that wasn't one of the mistakes.
MOORE: Well, I happen to think it was a mistake. And the FBI did not do the proper interrogation, as our FBI agent says in the movie.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You said you have one retired FBI agent in the movie, Jack Cloonan, I think his name is. But here's the 9/11 commission report. It says, "The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights that the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict those conclusions." Do you have any reason to doubt the credibility of the 9/11 commission?
MOORE: Well, first of all, that's their preliminary report. This is not the final report.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but then you make a pretty outrageous leap, though. You ? suggest that Bush has somehow gone easy on bin Laden because of these connections between the bin Laden family?
MOORE: I don't blame him for that. I don't blame him for that. Hey, if you gave me $1.4 billion, I'd take your call too.
Moore's op-ed appears to manipulate in a manner to contradict both Clarke and the 9/11 commission.
There's more of course, but there is a point in linking, letting others read and think as well. All I'm pointing out is that it appears Moore has stepped from documentary to propaganda in his quest to see Bush gone. When you have the sort of huge logical leaps that it appears journalists of even the left and right can point out, then it certainly should make any open-minded person question the conclusions drawn by Mr. Moore's film. But by all means see it and draw your own conclusions.
That all sounds dissapointing . . .after all, he doesn't need to stretch any truths to make an amazingly strong anti-Bush film: just lay out the situation and show the rhetoric for what it is and was, and voila! . . . why blow it all by stressing the week parts . . . .
So, who has definite plans for seeing the movie on Friday? I have a group of at least four people confirmed for the first showing at the local supermegacinemaplex. Of course dodgeball, the terminal, around the world in 80 days, riddick, garfield, stepford wives, harry potter, and shrek 2 have more showtimes....
From what I can tell, it looks like the movie will make a lot of money. I saw the 12:05 showing, which was surprisingly packed. Cinemark gave the movie one of it's two biggest theaters. At the end, a line of people a few columns deep gathered for the next show, something you usually see at night-- not in the afternoon.
The movie itself was entertaining at least. Lots of funny jabs at Bush and the people in his administration. They become relevant later when the movie focuses on the Iraq war. If there's one point it argues best, it's that the war was wrong-- we were duped into going to war and now it's killing innocent civilians and our soldiers. The Lila Lipscomb moments are persuasive.
The 1:25 show where I tried to go was sold out by 1:28. The beauty of this movie may end up being that it will appeal to the masses who don't bother to read newspapers and other factually critical sources. Sort of ingenius really; basically demonstrate (by their own words and deeds) how corrupt Bush and his men are, but in a whimsical way that won't bore Joe Average. If the general public doesn't go for the more scholarly stuff, give it to 'em in a package they can relate to and have some fun with it.
Nice little First Ammendment exercise in free speech and political criticism.
The net effect would be the same, were Joe Average to be motivated enough to read some real papers and scholarly works... many will see Bush in a way that they haven't bothered to consider until now. That is is not only a manipulative bastard, but easily manipulated himself by men who consider themselves visionaries when by and large they are teetering on the brink of facism instead of ardent protectors of freedom, as they always seem to imply.
I have a feeling this movie will be in twice as many theatres a week from now, as it is now... at least in major urban areas. While I realize Moore is a bit of hack himself, he does have a knack for making entertainment out of distubring political footage and interviews. Some of the stuff is surely over-done on purpose (to get laughs or whatever), but some of those interviews and answers to direct questions you cannot write off simply because Michael Moore was the one who put them in front of you.
In some of these instances, there is going to be no getting around what was said on camera (but which the speaker never figured would end up on a movie screen).
Ran across a free ticket today and saw the movie. It's definitely worth a viewing. It compiles a fairly vast amount of information that could otherwise be lost and probably needs two viewings several weeks apart.
Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in select theaters on June 23rd. If the drawn faces of audience members leaving some of the first screenings in New York City are any indication, this film fucks you up. (Hey Fahrenheit marketing people, put that blurb on your poster!) Those people willing to speak?many were dumbstruck and declined to talk, walking off in dazed silence?responded with intense emotion.
"I cried," said Tom Allsup. "And I cried again."
"People laughed, but were polite," says Sheila Schwid.
"We talked back to the screen," says Casey Krugman.
Or, as one attendee joked, "I laughed, I cried, I wanted the Bush family dead!"
Comments
Originally posted by DaveGee
After reading your post I saw the light and changed my evil ways. I now fully understand that US just got lucky with those 'petrol dollars' and there isn't anything special with the way our country was founded or is run - Boy, with all of the older more established and wiser countries in this world it sure was a lucky break that US currency was chosen to drive that industry. Question I have is why with the world being filled such superior countries, why didn't they see this coming and why haven't they simply stopped it? Everyone on holiday that month?
Oh BTW if I'm not prying, where did you make your millions and why haven't you given more of it away?? Isn't being a millionaire a bit excessive?? Other people are dying in this world and your money can prevent it now! Cough it up you greedy man - You clearly have no problem demanding the same of others and being a millionaire you must 'doing just fine' so lets crack open that little piggy bank of yours and empty it till it HURTS (really hurts)!
When your net worth gets down to the national average for whatever country you live in I let you stop - but not a moment sooner.
Oh Dave, you're good value. I like you.
What's funny is that actually went out of my way to say that I wasn't saying 'my' country was better then yours, but you missed that (even better then I thought).
Don't forget that you kicked it off with your tirade about 'liberals' and countries with 'socialist' policies ... but ignore the fact those countries have fewer murders, happier people, *better* health care, fewer people on Prozac, longer holidays and fewer social problems.
But you have a stronger economy and lower taxes. Good for you fella; hope that works out for you. I'll stick with my happier, healthier and safer thing if you don't mind!
Originally posted by Harald
Oh Dave, you're good value. I like you.
What's funny is that actually went out of my way to say that I wasn't saying 'my' country was better then yours, but you missed that (even better then I thought).
Don't forget that you kicked it off with your tirade about 'liberals' and countries with 'socialist' policies ... but ignore the fact those countries have fewer murders, happier people, *better* health care, fewer people on Prozac, longer holidays and fewer social problems.
But you have a stronger economy and lower taxes. Good for you fella; hope that works out for you. I'll stick with my happier, healthier and safer thing if you don't mind!
We can agree to disagree nothing wrong with that. By your own admission your higher taxes pays extortion payments to the undesirable unwashed ghetto folks so they leave you alone. Great, so long as they don't start demanding you up the payoff. And BTW good luck with that and before you say you never said anything like that - these are your words, "I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me."
It's points like this that we'll never agree on....
Punish those who do well or live in an appropriate manner
Reward those who don't.
Sorry but I don't see myself ever agreeing with such ideals...
As for people being happy? Happy is a relative word and state of mind - I'm HAPPY that people in the US are 'less than content' it makes people strive to better their lot in life - you can (and I'm sure will) disagree with me but it's that 'less than content' feeling that has made the US into the most successful in the world. If all the people in europe are content then that's wonderful.
As for **better** healthcare - I'll leave that one alone.
Dave
Have a nice day.
ll keep the tax thanks; money does not make you happy. The above do.
Are those countries 'better' then the US? Well, I'd never say that. I DO think it's fair to say that you get told a bunch of bullshit about the rest of the world and about how fucking great America is though.
Oh, and I AM a millionaire by the way bubba, a real live one; capitalism Europe style seems to work for me. As in I AM NOT A SOCIALIST. I DO like it here, and if I get taxed a bit more so that kids in the ghetto don't feel like they have to shoot me to get my shit, then that's fine with me.
This is one of my favorite posts of all time.
We done?
Here's a nice scathing review from Mr. Hitchens at Slate.
The Lies of Michael Moore
Nick
Originally posted by addabox
You're either with us or against us. This is war.
Why do I see parallels to the Baath party in Iraq?
p>s> After going through this thread, I am going to watch the movie just for kicks. Pirated DVDs, here I come...
Originally posted by trumptman
(tasting) mmmm...still too rare for my tastes.
Here's a nice scathing review from Mr. Hitchens at Slate.
The Lies of Michael Moore
Nick
If F911 is really about the Bush/Suadi connection exclusively then I will be very dissapointed . . . though real, I don't think that that connection is as important to the corrupt decisions that have caracterized this presidency . . or are involved with 911. . . .
Besides Hitchens is right, Clarke says he authorized thse flights out of the US . . . it was a big mistake . . . but I don't thhink that it was a cabal of insiders
But still, Ill see the film before I let a disgruntled hack like Hitchens tell me what to think . . . even if he is eloquent.
MSN has some exclusive video clips from the movie as well as other things. It's interesting to see what hollywood stars went to the premier and are on our side.
Originally posted by pfflam
If F911 is really about the Bush/Suadi connection exclusively then I will be very dissapointed . . . though real, I don't think that that connection is as important to the corrupt decisions that have caracterized this presidency . . or are involved with 911. . . .
Besides Hitchens is right, Clarke says he authorized thse flights out of the US . . . it was a big mistake . . . but I don't thhink that it was a cabal of insiders
But still, Ill see the film before I let a disgruntled hack like Hitchens tell me what to think . . . even if he is eloquent.
How about a disgruntled, eloquent hack named George Stephanpoulos?
This Week
Note some of the following parts...
Moore doesn't even claim his film presents the truth.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Random House defines "propaganda" as information, rumors, et cetera, deliberately spread widely to help or harm a person, group, movement, et cetera. By that definition, Fahrenheit 911 is propaganda, isn't it?
MOORE: Well, it's an op-ed piece. It's my opinion about the last four years of the Bush administration. And that's what I call it. I'm not trying to pretend that this is some sort of, you know, fair and balanced work of journalism, even though those who use the words "fair and balanced" often aren't that, but?
STEPHANOPOULOS: And your goal is to defeat President Bush.
MOORE: I would like to see Mr. Bush removed from the White House.
George even takes Moore apart on the Bin Laudin/Saudi/Bush connection as well. We've even seen the flying out claim asserted in the trailer as well. He doesn't say the entire film is about it, but he does characterize it as "a big chunk."
STEPHANOPOULOS: Take the issue of the Saudi planes. You make a big issue, a big chunk in the film about this issue where a few days after Sept. 11, many members of the Osama bin Laden family, Saudi nationals, were taken out of the country. It was helped, arranged by the White House. You suggest it was done when the airspace was closed. You suggest that these people were not screened. And you also [suggest] there's a whole sinister subtext there that this was because of the Bush family ties to the bin Laden family. But the 9/11 commission report found that they didn't fly until the airspace was open, that they were screened by the FBI.
A bit more...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but Richard Clarke, who's probably at the top of the White House enemy list, says that it was his decision, he takes responsibility for it. He doesn't think it was a mistake.
MOORE: Right. And he said that he's made mistakes, and he apologized to the 9/11 families for those mistakes.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But that wasn't one of the mistakes.
MOORE: Well, I happen to think it was a mistake. And the FBI did not do the proper interrogation, as our FBI agent says in the movie.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You said you have one retired FBI agent in the movie, Jack Cloonan, I think his name is. But here's the 9/11 commission report. It says, "The FBI has concluded that nobody was allowed to depart on these six flights that the FBI wanted to interview in connection with the 9/11 attacks, or who the FBI later concluded had any involvement in those attacks. To date, we have uncovered no evidence to contradict those conclusions." Do you have any reason to doubt the credibility of the 9/11 commission?
MOORE: Well, first of all, that's their preliminary report. This is not the final report.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but then you make a pretty outrageous leap, though. You ? suggest that Bush has somehow gone easy on bin Laden because of these connections between the bin Laden family?
MOORE: I don't blame him for that. I don't blame him for that. Hey, if you gave me $1.4 billion, I'd take your call too.
Moore's op-ed appears to manipulate in a manner to contradict both Clarke and the 9/11 commission.
There's more of course, but there is a point in linking, letting others read and think as well. All I'm pointing out is that it appears Moore has stepped from documentary to propaganda in his quest to see Bush gone. When you have the sort of huge logical leaps that it appears journalists of even the left and right can point out, then it certainly should make any open-minded person question the conclusions drawn by Mr. Moore's film. But by all means see it and draw your own conclusions.
Nick
Oh well . . . we'll see.
From what I can tell, it looks like the movie will make a lot of money. I saw the 12:05 showing, which was surprisingly packed. Cinemark gave the movie one of it's two biggest theaters. At the end, a line of people a few columns deep gathered for the next show, something you usually see at night-- not in the afternoon.
The movie itself was entertaining at least. Lots of funny jabs at Bush and the people in his administration. They become relevant later when the movie focuses on the Iraq war. If there's one point it argues best, it's that the war was wrong-- we were duped into going to war and now it's killing innocent civilians and our soldiers. The Lila Lipscomb moments are persuasive.
Nice little First Ammendment exercise in free speech and political criticism.
The net effect would be the same, were Joe Average to be motivated enough to read some real papers and scholarly works... many will see Bush in a way that they haven't bothered to consider until now. That is is not only a manipulative bastard, but easily manipulated himself by men who consider themselves visionaries when by and large they are teetering on the brink of facism instead of ardent protectors of freedom, as they always seem to imply.
I have a feeling this movie will be in twice as many theatres a week from now, as it is now... at least in major urban areas. While I realize Moore is a bit of hack himself, he does have a knack for making entertainment out of distubring political footage and interviews. Some of the stuff is surely over-done on purpose (to get laughs or whatever), but some of those interviews and answers to direct questions you cannot write off simply because Michael Moore was the one who put them in front of you.
In some of these instances, there is going to be no getting around what was said on camera (but which the speaker never figured would end up on a movie screen).
Originally posted by trumptman
(tasting) mmmm...still too rare for my tastes.
Here's a nice scathing review from Mr. Hitchens at Slate.
The Lies of Michael Moore
Nick
What a stunning inditement of Moore's film.
Michael Moore's Fahrenheit 9/11 opened in select theaters on June 23rd. If the drawn faces of audience members leaving some of the first screenings in New York City are any indication, this film fucks you up. (Hey Fahrenheit marketing people, put that blurb on your poster!) Those people willing to speak?many were dumbstruck and declined to talk, walking off in dazed silence?responded with intense emotion.
"I cried," said Tom Allsup. "And I cried again."
"People laughed, but were polite," says Sheila Schwid.
"We talked back to the screen," says Casey Krugman.
Or, as one attendee joked, "I laughed, I cried, I wanted the Bush family dead!"
From here
BTW . . . is it true that the Carlysle Group just bought Loews Theatre Company?
Giant?