Checked out Think Secret's forums for the first time in a long time. Guess who's got a few post there? Our very own, lovable Codename. He even lists AppleInsider.com as his location. In the "i of Newton" thread, he says, "It will be a dolphin with a hot wire running through it." Still cryptic, but not quite so mystic when he's over there. Anyway, if its Nick, why isn't he spicing up his own forums more? They've always been kind of a bore.
<strong>3 processors? But the G5 isn't coming out in Jan according to AtAT, unless we have 2 gens of G4, current and Apollo. They have always been right on in my recent memory so I will have to go with them and pray that I have pleasantly surprised.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When did AtAT say that? There was a joke about it in their last report but that's all it was... a joke. Did they say something earlier?
Macman, os9 is not better than linux! not by a long shot! And personally, I think linux is better than OSX. I'm an Apple hardware junkie, but for OS, I prefer linux. It just rocks. It flies on a 250 mhz PBG3. All the apps are free. many of them rock.
Just for a lark I did a Google search on "Macintosh G5".
Wow.
There is a huge amount of "reporting" of the same single source quoted by TheRegister and MOSR. Even CNN got into it. Its clear that everybody is ready for the G5, everybody is hoping for the G5, and nobody is expecting to actually see a G5. But we'll all be disappointed when it doesn't materialize. I hope Jobs is wearing body armour if they aren't actually going to deliver it.
One thing that surprised me, however, was that there were people seriously expecting the G5 back at MWNY. I had only heard 1 GHz G4 rumours (and even those weren't met). The only thing I had been hoping for was DDR.
Ryan @ MOSR must be tickled pink -- his site is mentioned in connection with this all over the place.
The CNN story was interesting because they quoted a Moto rep who downplayed how soon the G5 would arrive, what it would be, and also indicated it would use a process technology that Moto doesn't have available yet (0.10 micron).
In the end we really have zero "truth", and won't have any until the 7th.
Macman, os9 is not better than linux! not by a long shot! And personally, I think linux is better than OSX. I'm an Apple hardware junkie, but for OS, I prefer linux. It just rocks. It flies on a 250 mhz PBG3. All the apps are free. many of them rock.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can you fill me in?
I don't quite understand the structure of Linux ... MUST the apps be free? Or can you write an app and charge for it?
Like, let's say - Apple did something - ahem "revolutionary", and sold a dev kit for Cocoa (not Carbon)to run atop Linux, that included a user interface very much like Aqua (or, at least as close as they can get on an Intel box) ... could Apple legally sell such a thing?
Companies like Intel and AMD have release dates for a reason....its a shame Apple has to take this route. Ultimately, its done Apple, and its investors and customers, more harm than good. Everyone likes a pleasant surprise (like the iPod) but this processor business (and the fact that Apple treats them like Christmas goodies) only reinforces Apple's reputation as a boutique firm.
I don't quite understand the structure of Linux ... MUST the apps be free? Or can you write an app and charge for it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure; there are a number of commercial, closed-source apps for Linux. Quake 3 comes immediately to mind, and I think there's also a decent office suite (Corel?).
It's just the nature of it that makes most of the apps free and open-source. I might add that very few are polished, user-level apps like you'd expect on Mac and Windows.
[quote]Originally posted by OverToasty:
<strong>Like, let's say - Apple did something - ahem "revolutionary", and sold a dev kit for Cocoa (not Carbon)to run atop Linux, that included a user interface very much like Aqua (or, at least as close as they can get on an Intel box) ... could Apple legally sell such a thing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but it's much more likely that they would just have "OS X for Intel-architecture", not running atop anything. After all, they have the whole BSD layer, which performs the same function as Linux. In fact, it's a certainty that they have something like this running internally as a contingency plan.
i think i get it, dessert being a place where there is no water. aka aqua. if there is no aqua then what would it use? rosetta stone i think. so maybe dolphin or whatever is tablet? i hope not cuz i dont want one. sorry
<strong>i think i get it, dessert being a place where there is no water. aka aqua. if there is no aqua then what would it use? rosetta stone i think. so maybe dolphin or whatever is tablet? i hope not cuz i dont want one. sorry</strong><hr></blockquote>
is this english??
what has this place become???
btw desert is with 1 's' dessert is somthing you have after dinner (you always want seconds, hence the 2nd 's')(same thing with dinner and diner)-I just wanted to point that little titbit of info out...
<strong>sometimes i wish we could communicate by thought because i have a horrible time trying to type what i am thinking, hence the low post count, oh well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
eh, or it could be that we're both tired...
I mean it IS almost 4 in the morning for me.
After re-reading your post I kinda understand what you are getting at, but I was really just making fun of the # of "codemanes" in your post... heh
It's been a while and much has happened in the interim, but some things never change, especially the over optimistic and over pessimistic fellings shared on this board. But it's good to know some things never change.
One thing i don't know is how this rumor about the G5 is so widespread. So far I have yet to see one in any lab allthough I don't doubt they exist; inside Apple labs.
What we have seen though, is widespread use of the 7460 which is basically a 7450 with an improved method of manufacter. Still this is nothing to sneeze at.
They offer linear performance over the 7450 at better speeds. The range so far has been ~900-1400MHz but it is hard to give exact numbers due to the variety of motherboards they exist on.
I was shocked when the newer motherboard we were working on were not released at the Expo this past summer.
Fully working DDR-SDRAM motherboards were ready with a full assortment of modern motherboard features including Fibre Firewire at speeds up to 1600Mbps with a fibre port and 2 lower speed (800Mb) normal ports. USB1.1 was still there but the board had support for DDR-SDRAM and an advanced system bus running at 266MHz. They were to include CPU's running at up to 1GHz. Perhaps faster CPU's were hard to come by.
Of couse they could have put that plan on ice and wait for the recently announced 333Mhz DDR-SDRAM. The board was fully compatible with the newer SDRAM standard and easy to impliment. this of course would imply the cpu bus to the main controller would be accordingly sped up to provice sufficient bandwidth.
Internally on the main controller (memory+PCI+peripherals - there is no seperate southbridge controller) there is a hyper transport link from PCI controller and peripherals such as ATA/133, USB, audio (also new), etc.
Firewire and ethernet have their own seperate connections. This is an advanced peice of silicon. No, to me the only reason to release this board that is all ready this Expo is simple; many of the advanced features would go unused.
Perhaps there would have been a lack of advanced firewire peripherals. Or maybe they wanted to see the outcome of the memory wars between RAMBUS and the DDR consortium (there was in fact RAMBUS based prototypes of G4 systems floating around that we never came in contact with).
In just over a month we will see a leap in performance from Apple's high end. It should be enough to justify their role in high end applications for years to come. We'll see.
Apple has been so kind as to send some advanced information on their hardware roadmaps. Normally this is so uncommon as to be unheard of! But there are such diverging hardware plans for the upcoming year(s) that it has been made necessary. the line of work we're in demands we have advance knowledge of these plans. They are of the magnitude of when they transitioned over to the PowerPC from 680X0 or the transition to PCI from NuBus. Soon (in a couple of Quarters) Apple's hardware will be radically different than what it is now.Some of the more obscure stuff are the methods of input, output, but some other details focus on SOC develpments from Motorola and Apple and to some extent, IBM. Future personal devices from Apple will have more of an intimate relationship with Apple's desktop hardware, and to a point an integral relationship. Future desktop systems (iMac type machines and modular machines) will have bundled gadgets suited for specific uses (for example: an iPod bundled with an iMac where the iPod would slide in a slot in the imac made for it) depending on the desktop system it comes with. Some of the examples cited indicated to me atleast, that Apple want's to expand it's core business from just consumer and professional graphics artists to business and media creation.
Some of the ideas are novel but not so revolutionary. But other ideas are simply innovative and original. It gives you confidence that Apple not only wants to live on the cutting edge but thrive there. Some of this will become apparent this upcoming expo. The next couple of years will be busy for us because new opportunities have been presented to us. Some will come to fruition soon hopefully.
I'm afraid I have been kept out of the loop. In fact most of our department has been kept out. While we have been working on G4 based Macs, some of our colleagues have not only had access to advanced machines but intimate knowledge of them. I only came to find out about them recently. It has been abnormally secretive.The good news is that the machines are VASTLY superior to the ones we have in our possesion. I believe they are based on the MPC8500 processor we know as the G5 and the speeds are nothing short of breakthrough (in Apple terms). The documentation I saw detailed machines in the 1.2, 1.4 and 1.6GHz range. I have yet to see the cases. But it may be that this week they will have to let us in on it as our department will eventually be dealing exclusively with them. Talk to you soon.
Here are some more details on G5 based Mac's. The G5 does not use the MPX protocol to communicate with onboard devices but a never before used protocol called RapidIO. RapidIO is very similar to a highspeed serial bus like Firewire, but works at higher speed because it is a bus strictly for PCB (the actual motherboard). Included on die is a 333MHz 64bit memory controller for DDR-SDRAM. But the controller is flexible. It is unknown what speed the controller will run the memory in Apple machines. The 512KB L2 cache has a 256bit interface with the core that is 8-way set associate. The L3 cache interface can address up to 8MB or 16MB, I don't fully understand the docs I got on them. But it is 2 way set associative. I have little information on motherboard specifics. I also have little information on PCI specifics and this is where most of my job concentrates on. Seems very little hardware testing has been done outside Apple labs and what has is very secretive. I can only assume that the PCI bridge is not that different than past PowerMacs and therefore did not warrent excessive testing. I hope this is the case.
Comments
<strong>3 processors? But the G5 isn't coming out in Jan according to AtAT, unless we have 2 gens of G4, current and Apollo. They have always been right on in my recent memory so I will have to go with them and pray that I have pleasantly surprised.</strong><hr></blockquote>
When did AtAT say that? There was a joke about it in their last report but that's all it was... a joke. Did they say something earlier?
So here's what the crystal revealed: as we suspected, the PowerPC G5 won't be making an
appearance (not for another six months, anyway), and instead, we'll get faster Power Mac G4s
starting at 933 MHz and punching well past the gigahertz barrier.
Macman, os9 is not better than linux! not by a long shot! And personally, I think linux is better than OSX. I'm an Apple hardware junkie, but for OS, I prefer linux. It just rocks. It flies on a 250 mhz PBG3. All the apps are free. many of them rock.
my 2 cents...
<strong>From the 12.18 episode of AtAt:
So here's what the crystal revealed: as we suspected, the PowerPC G5 won't be making an
appearance (not for another six months, anyway), and instead, we'll get faster Power Mac G4s
starting at 933 MHz and punching well past the gigahertz barrier.</strong><hr></blockquote>
1Ghz ain't much of a barrier to 'punch' thru when it's still less than half the speed of Intel and a year late; Mhz Myth or not.
At this rate, sooner or later, even the photoshop bake-offs will stop working - and once that happens, Apple's really in trouble.
Apple needs a revolution - soon.
Wow.
There is a huge amount of "reporting" of the same single source quoted by TheRegister and MOSR. Even CNN got into it. Its clear that everybody is ready for the G5, everybody is hoping for the G5, and nobody is expecting to actually see a G5. But we'll all be disappointed when it doesn't materialize. I hope Jobs is wearing body armour if they aren't actually going to deliver it.
One thing that surprised me, however, was that there were people seriously expecting the G5 back at MWNY. I had only heard 1 GHz G4 rumours (and even those weren't met). The only thing I had been hoping for was DDR.
Ryan @ MOSR must be tickled pink -- his site is mentioned in connection with this all over the place.
The CNN story was interesting because they quoted a Moto rep who downplayed how soon the G5 would arrive, what it would be, and also indicated it would use a process technology that Moto doesn't have available yet (0.10 micron).
In the end we really have zero "truth", and won't have any until the 7th.
<strong>
Macman, os9 is not better than linux! not by a long shot! And personally, I think linux is better than OSX. I'm an Apple hardware junkie, but for OS, I prefer linux. It just rocks. It flies on a 250 mhz PBG3. All the apps are free. many of them rock.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Can you fill me in?
I don't quite understand the structure of Linux ... MUST the apps be free? Or can you write an app and charge for it?
Like, let's say - Apple did something - ahem "revolutionary", and sold a dev kit for Cocoa (not Carbon)to run atop Linux, that included a user interface very much like Aqua (or, at least as close as they can get on an Intel box) ... could Apple legally sell such a thing?
<strong>In the end we really have zero "truth", and won't have any until the 7th.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Ahhhh, enlightenment.
But c'mon, hasn't anybody 'round here snooped thru Apple's garbage at least once? Or at least tried to clean Steve's pool?
Repeat after me: "Phill, you've lost weight!" ... I know it's hard to say, but dammit man, think of the cause!
Even the smallest weasel can change the course of history.
<strong>
I don't quite understand the structure of Linux ... MUST the apps be free? Or can you write an app and charge for it?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Sure; there are a number of commercial, closed-source apps for Linux. Quake 3 comes immediately to mind, and I think there's also a decent office suite (Corel?).
It's just the nature of it that makes most of the apps free and open-source. I might add that very few are polished, user-level apps like you'd expect on Mac and Windows.
[quote]Originally posted by OverToasty:
<strong>Like, let's say - Apple did something - ahem "revolutionary", and sold a dev kit for Cocoa (not Carbon)to run atop Linux, that included a user interface very much like Aqua (or, at least as close as they can get on an Intel box) ... could Apple legally sell such a thing?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes, but it's much more likely that they would just have "OS X for Intel-architecture", not running atop anything. After all, they have the whole BSD layer, which performs the same function as Linux. In fact, it's a certainty that they have something like this running internally as a contingency plan.
Alex
<strong>i think i get it, dessert being a place where there is no water. aka aqua. if there is no aqua then what would it use? rosetta stone i think. so maybe dolphin or whatever is tablet? i hope not cuz i dont want one. sorry</strong><hr></blockquote>
is this english??
what has this place become???
btw desert is with 1 's' dessert is somthing you have after dinner (you always want seconds, hence the 2nd 's')(same thing with dinner and diner)-I just wanted to point that little titbit of info out...
-Paul
<strong>sometimes i wish we could communicate by thought because i have a horrible time trying to type what i am thinking, hence the low post count, oh well.</strong><hr></blockquote>
eh, or it could be that we're both tired...
I mean it IS almost 4 in the morning for me.
After re-reading your post I kinda understand what you are getting at, but I was really just making fun of the # of "codemanes" in your post... heh
-Paul
Where did ya go man? You've been way to quiet and we could really use something to chat about while we wait for 'd-day'...
You too codename...
Dave
[ 01-01-2002: Message edited by: DaveGee ]</p>
Jeez :eek:
[quote] You heard it here first: G2000 <hr></blockquote>
<strong>Here's another quote from codename over at Think Secret. It's in the iPhoto? iCam? thread.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
That guy isn't codename (our codename) I read some of his other posts and it sure didn't sound like our codename...
Dave
------------------------------------------------------------------------
It's been a while and much has happened in the interim, but some things never change, especially the over optimistic and over pessimistic fellings shared on this board. But it's good to know some things never change.
One thing i don't know is how this rumor about the G5 is so widespread. So far I have yet to see one in any lab allthough I don't doubt they exist; inside Apple labs.
What we have seen though, is widespread use of the 7460 which is basically a 7450 with an improved method of manufacter. Still this is nothing to sneeze at.
They offer linear performance over the 7450 at better speeds. The range so far has been ~900-1400MHz but it is hard to give exact numbers due to the variety of motherboards they exist on.
I was shocked when the newer motherboard we were working on were not released at the Expo this past summer.
Fully working DDR-SDRAM motherboards were ready with a full assortment of modern motherboard features including Fibre Firewire at speeds up to 1600Mbps with a fibre port and 2 lower speed (800Mb) normal ports. USB1.1 was still there but the board had support for DDR-SDRAM and an advanced system bus running at 266MHz. They were to include CPU's running at up to 1GHz. Perhaps faster CPU's were hard to come by.
Of couse they could have put that plan on ice and wait for the recently announced 333Mhz DDR-SDRAM. The board was fully compatible with the newer SDRAM standard and easy to impliment. this of course would imply the cpu bus to the main controller would be accordingly sped up to provice sufficient bandwidth.
Internally on the main controller (memory+PCI+peripherals - there is no seperate southbridge controller) there is a hyper transport link from PCI controller and peripherals such as ATA/133, USB, audio (also new), etc.
Firewire and ethernet have their own seperate connections. This is an advanced peice of silicon. No, to me the only reason to release this board that is all ready this Expo is simple; many of the advanced features would go unused.
Perhaps there would have been a lack of advanced firewire peripherals. Or maybe they wanted to see the outcome of the memory wars between RAMBUS and the DDR consortium (there was in fact RAMBUS based prototypes of G4 systems floating around that we never came in contact with).
In just over a month we will see a leap in performance from Apple's high end. It should be enough to justify their role in high end applications for years to come. We'll see.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Apple has been so kind as to send some advanced information on their hardware roadmaps. Normally this is so uncommon as to be unheard of! But there are such diverging hardware plans for the upcoming year(s) that it has been made necessary. the line of work we're in demands we have advance knowledge of these plans. They are of the magnitude of when they transitioned over to the PowerPC from 680X0 or the transition to PCI from NuBus. Soon (in a couple of Quarters) Apple's hardware will be radically different than what it is now.Some of the more obscure stuff are the methods of input, output, but some other details focus on SOC develpments from Motorola and Apple and to some extent, IBM. Future personal devices from Apple will have more of an intimate relationship with Apple's desktop hardware, and to a point an integral relationship. Future desktop systems (iMac type machines and modular machines) will have bundled gadgets suited for specific uses (for example: an iPod bundled with an iMac where the iPod would slide in a slot in the imac made for it) depending on the desktop system it comes with. Some of the examples cited indicated to me atleast, that Apple want's to expand it's core business from just consumer and professional graphics artists to business and media creation.
Some of the ideas are novel but not so revolutionary. But other ideas are simply innovative and original. It gives you confidence that Apple not only wants to live on the cutting edge but thrive there. Some of this will become apparent this upcoming expo. The next couple of years will be busy for us because new opportunities have been presented to us. Some will come to fruition soon hopefully.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
I'm afraid I have been kept out of the loop. In fact most of our department has been kept out. While we have been working on G4 based Macs, some of our colleagues have not only had access to advanced machines but intimate knowledge of them. I only came to find out about them recently. It has been abnormally secretive.The good news is that the machines are VASTLY superior to the ones we have in our possesion. I believe they are based on the MPC8500 processor we know as the G5 and the speeds are nothing short of breakthrough (in Apple terms). The documentation I saw detailed machines in the 1.2, 1.4 and 1.6GHz range. I have yet to see the cases. But it may be that this week they will have to let us in on it as our department will eventually be dealing exclusively with them. Talk to you soon.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Here are some more details on G5 based Mac's. The G5 does not use the MPX protocol to communicate with onboard devices but a never before used protocol called RapidIO. RapidIO is very similar to a highspeed serial bus like Firewire, but works at higher speed because it is a bus strictly for PCB (the actual motherboard). Included on die is a 333MHz 64bit memory controller for DDR-SDRAM. But the controller is flexible. It is unknown what speed the controller will run the memory in Apple machines. The 512KB L2 cache has a 256bit interface with the core that is 8-way set associate. The L3 cache interface can address up to 8MB or 16MB, I don't fully understand the docs I got on them. But it is 2 way set associative. I have little information on motherboard specifics. I also have little information on PCI specifics and this is where most of my job concentrates on. Seems very little hardware testing has been done outside Apple labs and what has is very secretive. I can only assume that the PCI bridge is not that different than past PowerMacs and therefore did not warrent excessive testing. I hope this is the case.
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Cheers!
Dave