Blu-Ray vs. HD-DVD (Update)

Posted:
in Future Apple Hardware edited January 2014
Microsoft....at it again with pushing an inferior technology...



http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20050627/...rosoft_toshiba



I just pray that the all the clueless masses don't jump on the HD-DVD bandwagon because it's "Microsoft." Anyways, I guess if your an HD-DVD fan boy, this is good news.
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Comments

  • Reply 1 of 367
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Fixed the link above.
  • Reply 2 of 367
    dave k.dave k. Posts: 1,306member
    Microsoft will lose. Sony will win.



    Millions of Blu-Ray DVD players will ship with each PS3 which will guarantee Sony's success.



    HD-DVD is as good as dead.
  • Reply 3 of 367
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Yawn



    Not again. You guys don't have anything new to say. Let's spell this out.



    XBOX 360 HD. Ballmer was all coy and vague when asked whether we'd see a HD-DVD version of the Xbox 360. Believe me it's coming.



    $299 for the Xbox 360

    $499 for the Xbox 360 HD



    Makes total sense.



    Enough with the inferior crap. Neither side has the definitive advantage. PS3 means nothing because out of the 3 million potential buyers what percentage will have HDMI enabled HDTVs? Not even %50 folks.



    Both formats are coming and I haven't a clue which format wins because there simply isn't enough info out to make an "informed" opinion on who could/would win.



    Summary for all those with thick heads.



    Neither format is inherently inferior or superior. Certain aspects of each format are but on a whole it's a dead heat.



    Game devices will have little impact because many game players won't have HDMI enabled HDTV which will be required for PS3 and likely Xbox 360 HD. So tack on another $1500 to the purchase for many.



    Don't blame Microsoft for anything. They're aligning with Toshiba because Sony could be a threat to their multimedia efforts. It's strictly business.
  • Reply 4 of 367
    jcgjcg Posts: 777member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    ...Both formats are coming and I haven't a clue which format wins because there simply isn't enough info out to make an "informed" opinion on who could/would win...



    The format that will win is the one that the Porn industry adopts, unless it moves to internet delivery/download as a standard in which case it will be left to the movie studio's and rental industry to decide.



    The consumer's will use the format that they can get content on, not the one that is "Superior." The computer industry will most likely move to the format eventually "Wins" the content "War," unless the content "War" is lost to legal downloads which is unlikely in the short term given bandwith constraints. However in the longer term dowloadable content is the direction that the industry will move to and then it won't matter what format you "store" your backup copy of the movie to as long as the media is large enough to store the content.
  • Reply 5 of 367
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    JCG



    Yes IP/TV is going to factor into things. Also who's going to be the first to align themselves with Netflix/Blockbuster for rentals?



    Here's hoping that universal drives show up sooner rather than later. I'm already sick of this war.
  • Reply 6 of 367
    xoolxool Posts: 2,460member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JCG

    The format that will win is the one that the Porn industry adopts, unless it moves to internet delivery/download as a standard in which case it will be left to the movie studio's and rental industry to decide.



    The consumer's will use the format that they can get content on, not the one that is "Superior." The computer industry will most likely move to the format eventually "Wins" the content "War,"




    I agree, especially how the porn industry will shape standards. This will also impact video production, as turnaround time is quick and if someone can go buy a camera, plug it in to Final Cut, and burn an HD master, that format will have a huge head start.



    Meanwhile the video game consoles will be pumping out content long before Hollywood. While I may hold off updating my movie collection until I know which format wins, I'll still go buy titles for my platform of choice. And with XBox being released before PS3, I expect it will surely help the HD-DVD camp.



    But for computer use I just want vast and speedy storage. I've never used CD-RW or DVD-RW, just CD-R and DVD-R. With blanks so cheap, why burn at slow speeds when I could just use another disc. I hope for Blueray as I think it is more forward thinking, but we'll see how things end up.
  • Reply 7 of 367
    anandanand Posts: 285member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JCG

    The format that will win is the one that the Porn industry adopts, unless it moves to internet delivery/download as a standard in which case it will be left to the movie studio's and rental industry to decide.



    The consumer's will use the format that they can get content on, not the one that is "Superior." The computer industry will most likely move to the format eventually "Wins" the content "War," unless the content "War" is lost to legal downloads which is unlikely in the short term given bandwith constraints. However in the longer term dowloadable content is the direction that the industry will move to and then it won't matter what format you "store" your backup copy of the movie to as long as the media is large enough to store the content.




    Thank you. That was the best, most direct post I have seen today.
  • Reply 8 of 367
    blackcatblackcat Posts: 697member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    [B]XBOX 360 HD. Ballmer was all coy and vague when asked whether we'd see a HD-DVD version of the Xbox 360. Believe me it's coming.



    $299 for the Xbox 360

    $499 for the Xbox 360 HD



    Makes total sense.



    No, making total sense is making Xbox 360 HD ready *without* a $200 add-on. Either they are serious about squashing PS3 or they ain't. PS3 will definitely be blu-ray HD ready at whatever cost it comes in at, you can bet its close to the 360 price.



    I do think Sony has this one sewn up, purely on PS2 -> PS3 upgrades.



    But quite why everybody is so worked up over new tech that requires a $1500+ TV is beyond me
  • Reply 9 of 367
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    I agree, especially how the porn industry will shape standards. This will also impact video production, as turnaround time is quick and if someone can go buy a camera, plug it in to Final Cut, and burn an HD master, that format will have a huge head start.



    Hehehe you can



    Choose your format in DVD SP 4



    You can author Type 1 HD-DVD discs right now for HD-DVD players coming in Q4. I think Blu-Ray has Sonic making some authoring tools. We're almost there.



    Quote:

    No, making total sense is making Xbox 360 HD ready *without* a $200 add-on. Either they are serious about squashing PS3 or they ain't. PS3 will definitely be blu-ray HD ready at whatever cost it comes in at, you can bet its close to the 360 price.



    Sony will take a loss but they won't take a huge loss. I'm not hearing anything about a $300 PS3 more like $500. Microsoft was smart to keep the price down on the Xbox 360. There are plenty of people that assume the PS3 is going to be $299 and I think they are sadly mistaken. We'll see how many people plunk down $400 plus.



    Compromise is difficult here because the formats are different enough to make a hybrid difficult but similar enough to make going it alone feasible.



    I'm resigned to having both players because I'm not waiting for a victor before signing up. I hope someday to have a nice universal player. DVD-Audio/SACD players are now $119 so costs eventually come down enough.
  • Reply 10 of 367
    marzetta7marzetta7 Posts: 1,323member
    Enough with the inferior crap.



    No...more with the inferior crap. Here is yet another article stating that the HD-DVD will not be playing movies in 1080P:



    http://news.designtechnica.com/featu...e25_page3.html



    And for those of you who don't like to read, here's what should stand out:



    "Their first player will be available in November and priced under $1,000. It will feature HD DVD, DVD, and CD playback in either true 720p or 1080i resolution."





    "Neither format is inherently inferior or superior. Certain aspects of each format are but on a whole it's a dead heat."



    So let's see, Blu-Ray has better durability (Durabis), more capacity (Up to 200GB), and better resolution (1080P). So what exactly is inferior about Blu-Ray to HD-DVD....?



    A: Nothing is inferior, other than HD-DVD MAY and that's a big MAY cost the MANUFACTURER less as compared to Blu-Ray. I can care less if it's going to cost a corporation more to make discs. Besides, it has been stated time and time again the Blu-Ray discs will be the same price to the end consumer because the cost will be the same or less to manufacture as do current DVDs.



    So how do you come to the conclusion that neither format is inherently inferior or superior?...Don't know, you'll have to pull the wool over others' eyes. Moreover, you're right about one thing, and that is that this is strictly a business move,...despite the fact that HP and Dell who happen to be some of the biggest supporters of Microsoft are in the Blu-Ray camp, Microsoft simply wants an interactive layer on HD-DVD whereas I believe Blu-Ray will be running some sort of Java(Sun Microsystems) layer. And I don't know about you guys, but I want Microsoft as far away from my movie experience as possible.



    I try to see the merits in both formats, truly I do..., but the more I read, the more HD-DVD looks like a cheap joke.
  • Reply 11 of 367
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Marzetta7,



    Their first player will be available in November and priced under $1,000. It will feature HD DVD, DVD, and CD playback in either true 720p or 1080i resolution."



    My emphasis added. There are a handful of devices that accept a 1080p input. There's no point in offer 1080p output when 2% of sets can receive it. The reports of recording 1080i seem to be bogus as no one has been able to confirm the HD-DVD specification on this. Wouldn't matter anyways because if 1080i is the format then it's recording 50-60 frames per second which easily deinterlace to 1080p 24 if you want to using Faroudja, HQV or the many other deinterlacers.



    Quote:

    So let's see, Blu-Ray has better durability (Durabis), more capacity (Up to 200GB), and better resolution (1080P). So what exactly is inferior about Blu-Ray to HD-DVD....?



    Go do your homework. Durabis is optional and if you got to the AVS forums you'll see that they are looking at spin coat technology that is cheaper than Durabis. So durability claims are moot. I've already debunked your 1080p hype and first generation Blu-Ray only supports up to 50/54GB discs so you're selling me on vapor.



    Quote:

    Besides, it has been stated time and time again the Blu-Ray discs will be the same price to the end consumer because the cost will be the same or less to manufacture as do current DVDs.



    You're likely getting this from some of the recent BDA press release. I take their statements and the HD-DVD Promotion groups press release with a grain of salt. There's much we don't know including replication time and yield numbers. That's why I said there's not enough information and I mean verifiable info on costing and production capability.



    Currently I'd sum of some things as :



    Production Costs- HD-DVD is probably the leader but the BDA is getting the costing down for Blu-Ray. May be even in a 18 months. It'll depend on the spin coat process.



    Capacity- Blu-Ray wins. I don't think HD-DVDs 45GB Triple Layer discs will be supported in first generation HD-DVD.



    Authoring- This one is tough. BDA has identified more features of Blu-Ray that their opponents. There is a Java authoring mode, There are two transparent overlays for buttons/graphics and subtitles in Blu-Ray and their is an interface where as hard drives can be added. Blu-Ray sounds superior here however HD-DVD authoring specs are very hard to find.



    Price- HD-DVD was designed to provide a small price delta between DVD and HD-DVD. Similar numerical apertures and protection layers make 4layer discs improbably but increase the durabiliy without the need for a spin coat or Durabis like protection layer. This doesn't manifest itself a a cost for consumer but if i'm a studio I might like the potential savings of HD-DVD.



    Computer application- Blu-Ray advantage here but I'm not sure that cuts across and helps movie distribution.



    We're going to find out what both formats have in 6-9 months. It's still a bit close to call because Blu-Ray has a huge list of supporters but HD-DVD has Microsoft's support and that's not trivial. The battle lines are drawn but we'll soon see defections on both sides.



    Hell I'll buy both. With ebay and craigslist available selling stuff is pretty damn easy nowadays. Why should I hold off for some truce that'll never come.
  • Reply 12 of 367
    vinney57vinney57 Posts: 1,162member
    1080i opposed to 1080p is an irrelevance at this time. The source material will all be 1080p24 for film and 720p60 for sports which both formats can handle today. Any other future formats are a way down the probablity tunnel.



    As someone who creates DVD's as part of their work, my preference and bet would be on HD-DVD simply for the fact that the transition will be easier and cheaper. Although the BRD spec adds some nice programming possibilities there will be a significant additional investment for authoring and certification, and manufacturing itself will be more expensive.
  • Reply 13 of 367
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Microsoft will not release two versions of the Xbox - they will either go all HDVD, all Blueray, or all DVD. Having a non-homogonous mix of hardware in the field would make it harder to write software for the platform.



    IMHO, Xbox incorporating HDVD is the only hope for that format. Microsoft will sell enough units to keep competetion alive. I don't buy the argument that few gamers will have HD sets - the gaming demograpics are aging, and getting more wealthy. Gamers are the key to survival for both formats, and the 100+ million PS3s guarentees the survival of Bluray.



    For Microsoft, there is considerable risk in any of the three choices.



    DVD - may lock them into inferior format, they won't be able to change it up for 4-5 years, because changing it would cause the mixed hardware problem.

    HDVD - what if it dies?

    Bluray - adopting this means giving Sony a cut of Xbox revenue
  • Reply 14 of 367
    cwestphacwestpha Posts: 48member
    -.-



    1) xbox 360 comes with a hard drive standard

    2) Blue-ray is technecly supprior but is much more expencive and the tools arent as good as HD DVD.

    3) HD DVD is cheaper, is going to be for sale sooner, and has better tools for it. Problem is its capacity isnt as good.



    Who will win? Sure wont be the consumer.
  • Reply 15 of 367
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Microsoft will not release two versions of the Xbox - they will either go all HDVD, all Blueray, or all DVD. Having a non-homogonous mix of hardware in the field would make it harder to write software for the platform.



    Xbox Halo edition nuff said. The Xbox specs are already here. DVD player for now but HD options must be coming for the future. Why else would Microsoft announce an alliance with HD-DVD?



    Quote:

    IMHO, Xbox incorporating HDVD is the only hope for that format. Microsoft will sell enough units to keep competetion alive. I don't buy the argument that few gamers will have HD sets - the gaming demograpics are aging, and getting more wealthy. Gamers are the key to survival for both formats, and the 100+ million PS3s guarentees the survival of Bluray.



    No you trivialize a wee bit too much here. Not only do you need a HDTV but to playback HD-DVD or Blu-Ray you will need HDMI or DVI with HDCP protection. That cuts HDTV early adopter right out. Plus Sony hasn't committed topricing yet but somehow I doubt 3 million HDTV owners will suddenly start popping for Blu-Ray movies. That potential "stength" has fallacy written all over it.



    DVD - may lock them into inferior format, they won't be able to change it up for 4-5 years, because changing it would cause the mixed hardware problem.



    This is what HD-DVD supporters have been trying to get across to people. The format structure of HD-DVD means moving from DVD isn't a problem. It's Blu-Ray that breaks tradition with the past. This is why DVD Studio Pro allows you to burn a disc that has Standard Def content and High Def content on the same disc. The HD content will play in the 4.6 version of DVD Player or a HD-DVD set top box. The SD video will play everywhere.



    HDVD - what if it dies?



    What if Blu-Ray dies?



    Bluray - adopting this means giving Sony a cut of Xbox revenue



    Yup. Microsoft doesn't want to lose the media player market to the PS3
  • Reply 16 of 367
    twotwo Posts: 17member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JCG

    The format that will win is the one that the Porn industry adopts, unless it moves to internet delivery/download as a standard in which case it will be left to the movie studio's and rental industry to decide.



    The consumer's will use the format that they can get content on, not the one that is "Superior." The computer industry will most likely move to the format eventually "Wins" the content "War," unless the content "War" is lost to legal downloads which is unlikely in the short term given bandwith constraints. However in the longer term dowloadable content is the direction that the industry will move to and then it won't matter what format you "store" your backup copy of the movie to as long as the media is large enough to store the content.




    Don't forget the Wal~Mart factor. Whichever format gets into Wal~Mart quicker and cheaper will have the biggest user base. That means more average Joe's that can buy their porn or discounted movie titles on that format. I think that will be a bigger factor than even porn this time around now that ~20% of all retail sales are from there.
  • Reply 17 of 367
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by two

    Don't forget the Wal~Mart factor. Whichever format gets into Wal~Mart quicker and cheaper will have the biggest user base. That means more average Joe's that can buy their porn or discounted movie titles on that format. I think that will be a bigger factor than even porn this time around now that ~20% of all retail sales are from there.



    Wal-mart shoppers do not buy $1000 HD-DVD players. For the first 3 years, 99% of these new players will be game consoles.

    Wal-mart will stock both the Xbox and the PS3, it is too big a market to leave to others.



    Game consoles will flood the market, and they don't need any movies to be available before they are successful. The movies will follow the market share of game consoles, because they will vastly outnumber dedicated HD-DVD players.
  • Reply 18 of 367
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Not only do you need a HDTV but to playback HD-DVD or Blu-Ray you will need HDMI or DVI with HDCP protection. That cuts HDTV early adopter right out.



    That is not going to work for the home theater industry. Most high-end home theaters are run with $50K CRT projectors, and they will find a way to get HDTV VGA out of those boxes to power those projectors.



    Maybe we have to get a HDMI->VGA unit sourced from Singapore or something, but it will happen.
  • Reply 19 of 367
    cwestphacwestpha Posts: 48member
    Walmart will back HD DVD probebly. It requires minimal change in the production of DVDs and the DVD player. Thats why HD DVD is cheaper and is going to be to market well before Blue-Ray.



    Then again DVD+R won the DVD wars even though it was the more expencive format. It just worked better. I suspect its going to be a Betamax vs VCR thing again. The first out, cheapest, and one that has the largest liberary (read allows porn) will win. Doesnt look good for BlueRay in that case.
  • Reply 20 of 367
    e1618978e1618978 Posts: 6,075member
    Quote:

    Walmart will back HD DVD probebly. It requires minimal change in the production of DVDs and the DVD player. Thats why HD DVD is cheaper and is going to be to market well before Blue-Ray.



    How can you think that?



    How many years until HD-DVD player prices drop down to Walmart prices? The format war will be decided long before then - Walmart will have zero impact, and will just go with whoever wins.



    The PS3 is due out early next year - there is only a 6 month difference between HD-DVD and Blue-ray.
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