Intel touts power of upcoming Yonah laptop chip

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  • Reply 61 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by TenoBell

    At this point there really is no way of knowing any of this.



    Apple has given no indication of anything. All we can say for sure is they will be using Intel processors by June.




    At one point Apple said they'd have 3Ghz G5s within a year.



    Nothing is certain.
  • Reply 62 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by TenoBell

    At this point there really is no way of knowing any of this.



    Apple has given no indication of anything. All we can say for sure is they will be using Intel processors by June.




    I agree. My speculation above is just my analysis. I think it would be foolhearty for Apple to do their own motherboard, but they very well could. If they don't use Napa, then they will have shot themselves in the foot (in my opinion).
  • Reply 63 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sCreeD



    I said "I know," not "I always do." I admit I got sucked by the eye pr0n.



    Anyway, no board in any recent line was "off the shelf" because of them being for a PowerPC. Even for an Intel chip, I just can't see Apple trusting an OEM and letting go of that control.



    [Exit clause] Let me amend that a wee bit. Maybe-- what if-- Apple had influence in the Viiv specs. Hm, that'd be something.




    hahahahhaha! it's not ME this time that mentioned pr0n...! YEAH
  • Reply 64 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by jasenj1

    Not me. I've been wanting a new machine for a couple years now. If the first gen MacIntel laptops aren't compelling enough, my wife will just spend the money on something frivolous like furniture or carpets.



    - Jasen.






    heh. there are many many segments of society that consider buying the latest apple mac to be frivolous. i'm with you though, furniture and its associated depreciation is total bollocks[still my favourite word this week]
  • Reply 65 of 144
    tenobelltenobell Posts: 7,014member
    Quote:

    I think it would be foolhearty for Apple to do their own motherboard.

    If they don't use Napa, then they will have shot themselves in the foot (in my opinion).



    Would you mind elaborating?
  • Reply 66 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by atomicham

    I agree. My speculation above is just my analysis. I think it would be foolhearty for Apple to do their own motherboard, but they very well could. If they don't use Napa, then they will have shot themselves in the foot (in my opinion).



    The motherboard itself is not a particuarly big deal -- it is the chips on it that matter. It will be interesting to see if Apple goes with Intel motherboard chips. I expect that they will because it will save them pots of money and time, and doing their own chips gives them a fairly minimal advantage (if any at all). Apple can then focus on industrial design (i.e. the actual motherboard, its configuration, additional parts, and the case) where they've been doing well in recent years.
  • Reply 67 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    case design shouldn't matter. It's only rarely that their cases have major problems, even though they get a lot of attention when they do.



    I think you missed the point here, it's not that a new case might have problems in and of itself - it is that a new, tiny powerbook case might cause problems for the new Intel chips with respect to heat management.



    The giant aluminum G5 tower is already designed for hot desktop chips (the G5), and has plenty of room for air to circulate - it would have been very surprising if there had been any ventilation issues with putting a P4 in there, which has already been proven to work fine in much smaller PC cases.



    But putting a new, untested chip architecture into the smallest possible casing is unlikely to be something they will get perfectly right first time. It is quite likely that either the case will be bulkier than it needs to be, in which case those who wait will get a slimmer laptop, or the case will be too small in which case the early adopters will get melted cpus or burned laps.



    I'm not necessarily advocating that you not buy the first revision, incidentally (I have a revision A 15" aluminium powerbook and have had no problems with it), I am simply clarifying the issue.
  • Reply 68 of 144
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,570member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Programmer

    The motherboard itself is not a particuarly big deal -- it is the chips on it that matter. It will be interesting to see if Apple goes with Intel motherboard chips. I expect that they will because it will save them pots of money and time, and doing their own chips gives them a fairly minimal advantage (if any at all). Apple can then focus on industrial design (i.e. the actual motherboard, its configuration, additional parts, and the case) where they've been doing well in recent years.



    That's right. The board is just wiring. Apple has either designed or had a hand in the design of so many of its chips over the years that we forget that it might not be necessary any more. Even the first WiFi chip was designed by Lucent with the help of Apple.



    There are all of these small Asian mobo manufacturers out there who manage to come up with new board designs every 3 to 6 months. This isn't a big thing. It's just a matter of the form factor. If Apple sticks with the new BX form, they might not have to do anything. If they need a custom board, Intel could work one up for them easily. Intel sells almost half the Mobo's out there.
  • Reply 69 of 144
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,570member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Socrates

    I think you missed the point here, it's not that a new case might have problems in and of itself - it is that a new, tiny powerbook case might cause problems for the new Intel chips with respect to heat management.



    The giant aluminum G5 tower is already designed for hot desktop chips (the G5), and has plenty of room for air to circulate - it would have been very surprising if there had been any ventilation issues with putting a P4 in there, which has already been proven to work fine in much smaller PC cases.



    But putting a new, untested chip architecture into the smallest possible casing is unlikely to be something they will get perfectly right first time. It is quite likely that either the case will be bulkier than it needs to be, in which case those who wait will get a slimmer laptop, or the case will be too small in which case the early adopters will get melted cpus or burned laps.



    I'm not necessarily advocating that you not buy the first revision, incidentally (I have a revision A 15" aluminium powerbook and have had no problems with it), I am simply clarifying the issue.




    I understand what you are saying. But Apple is not alone any more. Intel has vast facilities to help with these design questions. Apple surely won't have any more of a problem than any other PC manufacturer has.



    Look at Sony's small laptops, for example. No problem there. The same can be said about other's. Apple can figure this out just as well. I don't see their first products in this space to have any more problems than anyone else's.



    As usual, I always express caution about ordering something the first day it is announced. NEVER get your fingers tapping out an order as soon as Apple announces the product. People who do that are asking for trouble. It isn't worth the bragging rights some people insist upon.



    Wait a couple of weeks to a month before ordering. Look on Macfixit, Macintouch, here, and other places to see if any problems have surfaced that might be a problem for you. The same thing is true with software.



    But, you don't have to wait 6 months to a year for a totally new revision to come out. Any small problems generally manifest themselves fairly quickly. Those that don't, can come at any time. Sometimes the first model is fine, and it's the second one with the problems.



    So, you might never buy anything if you worry too much. Apple has been pretty good over the years if it can be shown that the problem is endemic to the design. They have extended guarantees for problems like case cracks, screen problems, etc.



    With all of the experience that PC companies have had over the years with small, light notebooks, and the like, with hotter chips than the Yonah will be, I can't see any major problem popping up. And, as I've said, if there is, we should know pretty quickly.
  • Reply 70 of 144
    smalmsmalm Posts: 677member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Socrates

    But putting a new, untested chip architecture into the smallest possible casing is unlikely to be something they will get perfectly right first time.



    For thermal design a CPU is just a hot spot. I don't see Apple having a problem they can't handle here. A lot of cooling solutions can be found in the market already and I'm shure Apple's engineers know them all.
  • Reply 71 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    That's right. The board is just wiring. Apple has either designed or had a hand in the design of so many of its chips over the years that we forget that it might not be necessary any more. Even the first WiFi chip was designed by Lucent with the help of Apple.



    Sometimes we forget that Apple doesnt design anything. People who work for Apple design the products that Apple releases. People leave, people make mistakes, bugs happen.



    There are a number of factors to consider,

    a new cpu ( bugs happen )

    a chipset ( bugs happen )

    a new case ( bugs happen )

    a new OS ( bugs happen )

    a new board ( bugs happen )



    Thats a lot of new stuff going into these new machines. Im sure that lots of it will go right, Apple have been working on this for a long time. But Im also sure that plenty of things will go wrong. It would be wise to wait for a few machines to get out in the wild and see what doesnt work properly. It can take a lot of arm twisting to get Apple to acknowledge a widespread fault.



    Of course, on the other hand, if Apple release an intel mini Ill be buying about 5 of them, theres really nothing comparable in the intel space for running dev servers.
  • Reply 72 of 144
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,570member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by mmmpie

    Sometimes we forget that Apple doesnt design anything. People who work for Apple design the products that Apple releases. People leave, people make mistakes, bugs happen.



    There are a number of factors to consider,

    a new cpu ( bugs happen )

    a chipset ( bugs happen )

    a new case ( bugs happen )

    a new OS ( bugs happen )

    a new board ( bugs happen )



    Thats a lot of new stuff going into these new machines. Im sure that lots of it will go right, Apple have been working on this for a long time. But Im also sure that plenty of things will go wrong. It would be wise to wait for a few machines to get out in the wild and see what doesnt work properly. It can take a lot of arm twisting to get Apple to acknowledge a widespread fault.



    Of course, on the other hand, if Apple release an intel mini Ill be buying about 5 of them, theres really nothing comparable in the intel space for running dev servers.




    We know that the "company" doesn't actually *do* anything.



    But Apple has a better record than most. Even laptops that were hot ram without problems. Heat just can't be avoided at times. But as long as it's understood, it can be directed where it won't harm the computer.



    Bugs happen. But meaningful bugs in hardware are rare. Software is tougher than hardware. Hardware can be tested and characterized much more easily than software can.



    Evderyone will be using the same chips. That's certainly no reason to avoid the system.



    Cases shouldn't be much of a problem. No more of a problem than before. You might as well say that every time Apple comes out with a new case, we should wait a year before buying. Only a very small percentage of people ever have a problem with a case, even when it turns out that the design WAS defective. The first Titaniums had problems with the first iteration. But, even then, less than 1% of the people who had them had a problem (other than with the paint, but that's cosmetic).



    Motherboards are not hard to do. It's basic electronics design. I've designed a number of high performance boards over the years. It's much easier today, despite the greater complexity and higher frequencies involved.



    It's unlikely that Apple will continue to design all of it's own chipsets, or even most of them. Possibly, none of them.



    The OS seems to be fine. It's the only real area of contention. But within a couple of weeks we will see if there are any real problems. As I said eariler, check in with Maxfixit, Macinrough, her, and other sites. Any problems will quickly surface, as well as any workarounds.



    Basically, Apple's problems should be no worse than other PC manufacturer. They are all transitioning over to Express. 30% of all new PC's now will have it by the end of 2005. Apple has successfully made that transition with remarkably little fuss. Going to Express is a bigger move electronically than going to a new cpu.



    Software availability will be the biggest question. A lot of companies have already announced that they are ready. There will be far greater compliance with this switch than there ever was when Apple went to the PPC in the first place.



    Think positive.
  • Reply 73 of 144
    It's not just design and bugs though with a first revision, it's also manufacturing. It usually takes them a couple of months to find out what's failing or causing issues in a new product - any product. Whilst it rarely leads to an immediate Rev B, just little tweaks are often done by the manufacturing company in situ.



    But I'm waiting for a Rev B. anyway as I don't find Yonah very compelling at all. It's not the great leap forward that Merom promises to be. In the great scheme of things I think the Yonah books will go down as a road apple.
  • Reply 74 of 144
    smalmsmalm Posts: 677member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aegisdesign

    I don't find Yonah very compelling at all.



    That's understandable - it's only the fastest laptop cpu ever
  • Reply 75 of 144
    Originally posted by smalM

    That's understandable - it's only the fastest laptop cpu ever




    until AMD's "yamato"
  • Reply 76 of 144
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aegisdesign



    Can't disagree with your first statements, I do have issues with below though.

    Quote:



    But I'm waiting for a Rev B. anyway as I don't find Yonah very compelling at all. It's not the great leap forward that Merom promises to be. In the great scheme of things I think the Yonah books will go down as a road apple.



    Well rev B could very well be Yonah also. I doubt that but waiting may be setting yourself up for disappointment. As to the follow ons to Yonah which ideally would be 64 bit, yeah they have a certain appeal there is no doubt there. Merom should be very nice indeed when it gets here.



    That however doesn't imply that the advancement will be as compelling as the switch from PPC to Yonah. Frankly this should result in huge improvements over existing Apple Laptops to a far greater extent than the Yonah to Merom change.



    I see the situation a little differently than you I geuss. The Yonah machines should be ideal for anybody that needs a significant speed boost right away. Hopefully that will come with a significant battery tiem boost also. At the same time though these machines will not be very usefull to people who need a 64 bit environment for whatever reason.



    Dave
  • Reply 77 of 144
    It's got nothing to do with 64bit although I'm dissapointed that Apple didn't completely skip IA32. But that's more for the instruction set and removal of so much legacy crap rather than the 64bit address space.



    Yonah is the last gasp in the old Pentium M architecture. Merom/Conroe is a new architecture. What comes after Yonah is what's interesting.



    If there's an Intel laptop in January then it's premature for me. Ill let the crash test dummies sort out Rev A and Rev B if that's what it takes but I see no point in them before OSX 10.5 and available applications and there's nothing on the desktop in the next year to beat the G5s so I guess I'm out for a year at least until the smoke has cleared.



    edit: meant OSX 10.5 of course
  • Reply 78 of 144
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aegisdesign

    For most people, most of the time, a 1.67Ghz G4 is faster than they need.



    That may very well be, after all how much speed does one need to run Wordstar. The flip side of the coin is that modern software continues to make use of CPU resources that are available to it. Once a program becomes sluggish there is a ligitimate need for faster hardware.



    Even worst is the reality of modern day OS'es and user patterns that end up with multiple applications taking up CPU resources. In the end it is unwise to try to define what "most people" need in the way of CPU resources. Even what an individual is satisfied with at one moment can be a hinderance toproductivity the next.





    Quote:

    They only need the Dual-core 2+Ghz chips of pissing contests in forums.



    Nope not at all, each and everyone of us has differrent needs. On top of that each persons needs vary as they exploit the hardware at hand. Besides dual core offers the most natural fit for the advancement we see in OS'es and user patterns. To claim a pissing match is pretty much the same as admitting that one pisses into the wind.



    Thanks

    dave
  • Reply 79 of 144
    Quote:

    Originally posted by wizard69

    The Yonah machines should be ideal for anybody that needs a significant speed boost right away.



    That'll depend on the applications. If Adobe, Macromedia and Apple don't release Intel natives versions of the software I use then there's no speed boost.
  • Reply 80 of 144
    wizard69wizard69 Posts: 13,377member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by aegisdesign

    It's got nothing to do with 64bit although I'm dissapointed that Apple didn't completely skip IA32. But that's more for the instruction set and removal of so much legacy crap rather than the 64bit address space.



    I disagree with the bit about 64 bit as I see that as very important part of the equation. That address space is very important for the future.



    As to legacy support that is an issue. With modern process sizes though no a big deal.

    Quote:



    Yonah is the last gasp in the old Pentium M architecture. Merom/Conroe is a new architecture. What comes after Yonah is what's interesting.



    Well yes and no. Yonah is interesting due to the significant improvment it should give Apple portables. That is given that Apple implements leading edge systems and not go to conservative. That is not to be underestimated.



    Please understand I'm not discounting Merom, just that I'm not convinced that it will be as big a jump performance wise as Yonah will be over the current systems.

    Quote:



    If there's an Intel laptop in January then it's premature for me. Ill let the crash test dummies sort out Rev A and Rev B if that's what it takes but I see no point in them before OSX 10.4 and available applications and there's nothing on the desktop in the next year to beat the G5s so I guess I'm out for a year at least until the smoke has cleared.



    Well deskstops maybe, though I would not be surprised to see Apple offer somthing very interesting by mid 2006.



    As to portables I geuss it depends on what your needs are. Frankly if Apple doesn't have something soon in 2006 then we will likely see many people moving away from Apple hardware altogether. The simple reality is that DOTHAN provides a marginally better to superior solution than anything Apple has now. YONAH has the potential to make that reality significantly worst for Apple's PPC based machines. Its a business reality that Apples portables are currently a questionable investment. With the Arrival of YONAH, there will be no question at all.



    So yeah MEROM would be nice thechnically. The corporate reality is that YONAH is an imperative. If Apple doesn't have YONAH early in Jan or Feb. they will have signifcant issues selling laptops.



    Dave
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