Well I'd like to thank you all for an informative post on the battle between Blu-ray and HD-DVD. I am fully aware of the need for one if not both in the immediate future, but I have some questions/comments concerning the need for either in the distant future as a medium for playing movies and games.
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
Outside of the space needed for the higher resolution and better quality audio what else is this going to be used for? Do we honestly believe that we are going to get more features for the same price? In most cases, the entertainment industry only gives more when they need to get the audience to open their wallets again and not before.
I get the boxed set compressed into one disc theory and I drool over the thought. This is cool for TV shows, but as I will explain later is already becoming outdated.
I am a very big fan of video games, in fact I work in the industry, and I just don't see the need for all this space. Granted more and more developers are crying that they can't fit everything on DVDs anymore but that doesn't mean that it's needed. Sure some developers can do marvelous things with FMVs and Audio (which take up the bulk of this space), but does more of them make a better game - almost everytime the answer is no.
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.
TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.
Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.
Outside of the PS3 and Wii dropping - these are what's really really good in non-portable Video Games
Console: GTA - announces next-generation GTA will have episodic content through XBOX Live
PC: World of Warcraft - over 6 million subscribers online-only game
PC: Spore - this thing can probably fit on a CD and has more gameplay possibilities than anything out right now
Console: Xbox Live Arcade - don't even need to pop a disc in
With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.
The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----
I'll take off my HD DVD hat and answer as squarely as I can.
Quote:
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
For premium features size is an issue. Say you want lossless audio and HD video well you'd need 18Mbps for 7.1 Lossless audio on top of whatever you video bitrate you have. Only a 50GB disc is going to be able to give you a 2hr movie and 7.1 lossless audio. That's Blu-Ray right now because of the extra space. Some people feel that lossless audio though is overkill for the space it requires.
For video games I think people overestimate just how much space 3D textures take up. I don't expect to see 50GB PS3 games anytime soon. I think the way to deal with size is to have compressed textures on disc that get stored on a HDD option for the player and Massively Multiplayer online games handling the rest.
Quote:
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
Yup in the next decade On Demand will eventually usurp both physical formats. I look for cable ops to start using the the more efficient codecs which will reduce the bitstarved macroblocking that I see on a daily basis with Comcast HD feeds. It's inevitable that On Demand will take over. In fact Microsoft and Disney persued iHD the interactive layers because it's small and can work in a IPTV environment. The writing is on the wall for those with large pipes. Eventually you'll just choose your movie and bam ..streamed to your HD with DVR like control.
I agree that we have to look at the sign of the times and realize that access trumps many things. Why spend $20 for that movie you will only watch a few times when you can just view it for a portion of that whenever you want?
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
Thanks for the post, first off, and welcome to the forum.
I think you answered your own question on this one. You have the convenience of consolidated TV shows or movies on one disc, convenience of one disc or very little number of discs for backup purposes, and the convenience of extra storage for better video games. I think it comes down to what you define as "better" video games, because, as I see it, from a graphics and audio perspective, games have gotten better with time, and more storage. They ought to improve moreso given that they have a future-proof path of storage available to them, especially in regards to Blu-ray. If your referring to the game experience as being "better" as far as enjoyment or the theme is concerned, I think it is quite a debatable point as to whether or not games have gotten better.
Quote:
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.
TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.
Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.
In a nutshell, once the global network infrastructure can support it, I believe online distribution of full-length HD movies (in 1920 X 1080 resolution) or TV shows will be it, however, we are far from it, and in the meantime Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, if the a la carte model from iTunes has shown anyone anything, people like to own the content they purchase not just subscribe to it, thus another reason why Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, you have those individuals who want the most excellent quality, and not compressed versions of media or versions that are inferior found on cable,...again another reason why Blu-ray of HD DVD will continue to have its place.
Quote:
With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.
The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----
Who said anything about having to buy your whole collection again? If you don't want to, you don't have too. Both formats will upconvert your existing DVD media to either 1080i or 1080P. The fact is, with this generation of HD media in the form of Blu-ray or HD DVD, we can go back, at least with DVDs that we own and continue to enjoy them. Regarding purchasing any future media on disc, you say you won't,....but do you really mean it?
JUN. 22 12:08 P.M. ET Samsung Electronics said Thursday it is "fully committed" to Blu-Ray, a DVD format backed by Sony Corp., as well as a number of Hollywood studios, including Disney, MGM and Twentieth Century Fox.
Samsung said its new Blu-ray DVD player, the BD-P1000, will be available on June 25, at the expected price of $999.
The announcement comes two days after Sony Pictures released the first seven films on DVD in the Blu-ray format.
It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.
Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]
Toshiba knows they can't outdo the marketing muscle of the BDA. They best thing they can do is set a price point that is attractive and wait for the component costs to come down and pull them out of the red.
It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.
Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]
You beat me to it! Good find.
In any case, I can't say I share the same outlook as the individual at the end of the article. I just don't see how one company (Toshiba), with one player (or two if you want to include the $799 model, still wondering what that increase in price gives you), will be able to compete with 6 companies (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Panasonic, and Sharp) with 7 players--one from each + the PS3.
Time will tell though, that's for sure. The holidays will be an interesting time indeed!
Samsung not ready to confirm dual-format Blu-ray and HD drive yet
23 June 2006 - Pocket-lint has an update to yesterday's story about Samsung possibly bringing out a dual-format Blu-ray and High Definition optical drive.
Samsung has released a statement that reads: "Samsung Electronics is fully committed to the Blu-ray format and currently only has plans to introduce a Blu-ray player to the market. Samsung is looking forward to a very successful launch of the BD-P1000 which will be available on retail shelves June 25th for a $999 MAP price in the United States."
A report on DigitalWorld Tokyo had cited a Samsung manager confirming that Samsung has plans to bring out a dual-format player.
He was quoted as saying: "We don't have a plan to make an HD-DVD-only player but are considering a universal player."
"We are preparing HD-DVD now and if we launch a universal player it will be the end of this year or early next year."
Samsung need to worry about producing ANY sort of player that doesn't have some sort of issue. Even their DVD players have had a variety of problems that have never been resolved. Samsung you've done well but you're not Sony yet.
Marzetta7 if it's true that we are still in the early adoption phase then it matters little that their are 7 BD players and 3 HD DVD. Clearly there isn't really enough differentiation between the players yet to make the choice anything more personal than tapping into an aethetic preference for casing.
Looking forware to 2nd generation stuff but glad that both formats are shipping now. HD movies and lower cost front projection equals total bliss.
I don't agree completely with each point; however, the fact is that--personally--I am not convinced that there is any mass-market need for any of this (unless the studios basically say, if you want to buy our great movie "TITLE", you have to buy it in a HD format). I am beginning to hope that both formats die miserably. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even need those stupid plastic discs for content; although, it is very, very difficult to beat the bandwidth of FedEx.
I'll stay out of the HD evolution for a couple of more years (my tv has worked for over 15, and for as much as I use it, it is fine).
1. Nobody likes false starts. With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i...For Toshiba to release a player that didn?t support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio
Holy smokes did this guy get ANYTHING right in this first point? Funny there are so few TVs that offer 1080p inputs and even fewer that offer a 1:1 pixel map for 1080p (others use wobulation to share mirrors) thus I don't really get why he's "underwhelmed" about 1080i and no disc has shipped with 720p. It's obvious the he doesn't understand the benefits of de-interlacing with Inverse Telecine. Dolby TrueHD 2-channel is MANDATORY which means support is in EVERY player so if it's not on the disc it's the studios fault. Let's hope the next one is better. Keep in mind DVD launched without Paramount, Disney and others who wanted DIVX to thrive
2. Format Wars Don?t Sell Players
Yes but they don't necessarily prohibit the success of formats either. Universal DVD Burners are the most recent success of to warring formats. Consumers are pretty adept and weighing the pros and cons of different formats. There's always competition.
3. HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology
They don't have to be. They simply need to be valued over today's DVD. The killer app here isn't the HD content but the rapidly decreasing prices of large screen TVs and projectors. NTSC looked fine until TVs got larger than 32". DVDs looked fine until 60" and larger TV and projected screens. At my day gig we sell decent projectors for $800 and nothing beats the experience of sharp video on a large screen.
4. Studios are Conservative, Greedy and Unmotivated
Many companies hate change. Theres inherent risk in change and if they can profit and keep the status quo that's what they feel comfortable with.
5. Playstation3 Cannot Save the World
On one hand I believe the PS3 could have a major impact on BD-ROM sales but there's the possibility that many people simply purchase it as a game console.
6. Those Who Ignore History?
Consumers are even more ambivalent about audio than they are about video. How many wall mounted plasmas do you see flanked by thin "lifestyle" speakers that sound like crap? Audio was never a big deal with people. Many profess to have a "tin ear" and DVD-A and SACD made fatal flaws. No digital hookup meant the use of 6 analog cable and the media pricing was higher than CD. People had been complaining for years about CD pricing so creating a more expensive format was not a way to engender the product into the hearts of people. Not to mention it's difficult to have a 5.1 playback system tweaked right.
7. People Want Technology that?s 15 Minutes Ahead of Its Time
It's a good thing to have SD mixed in with HD. After becoming acclimated to HD you realize how sucky SD is. There's your motive for HD movies right there.
8. Enthusiasts Are Getting Tired (and Smarter)
Yes but being an enthusiast is also knowing the new tech comes out to replace old tech. When one enthusiast retires he/she passes the torch on to the next one.
9. A Skeptical News Media Doesn?t Help
I?ll admit it, we?re part of the ?problem? (though I?d like to think we?re saving consumers from making the next big mistake). An increasingly skeptical news media isn?t buying into the hype of HD DVD and Blu-ray, especially not after wasting millions of editorial words on DVD-Audio and SACD, only to watch the software and technology dwindle into obscurity. Even after almost 6 years, most consumers continue to proffer puzzled looks when these audio formats are mentioned. The new DVD formats are getting plenty of press, mind you, but with the Toshiba flop and lack of software, the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (at least not yet) is hard to avoid.
Well the rule is that negative attention provokes more response. That's why the news is riddled with "dramatic" stories. I wouldn't call millions of editorial words wasted. You could be sitting in an unemployment line as another option so I think. I trust the news media when I want to read creative writing passed off as accurate reporting. I think the reality is a lot closer to news media being rather clueless and of no help for consumers.
10. Broadband and IPTV to Compete?
Certainly is an option worth looking into. Having more sources of movies and entertainment only seek to broaden and enrich my choices. I'd prefer both avenues.
Summary:
There's far too many people trying to tell me why I shouldn't like HD DVD or Blu-Ray. Their myopic view simply is shutting off the overall picture. If you have an HDTV and you want to see the best picture possible you get HD on your cable or you purchase one of these players. Whether you consider the player to be a good value or not rest soley on your own preferences.
HVD discs were said to be enterprise ready this year and capable of holding 3.9TB per disc.
That's the kind of thing I want to see from a next-gen disc format.
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray offer enough storage to warrant such expensive upgrades. Hardly anyone will have HDTVs or fast enough computers to play HD media so getting HD movies is pointless.
In terms of computer storage, most people will probably just get single layer discs like they still do with DVD, even though it's been around for years. For HD-DVD, that gives you the equivalent of 3 DVDs of space and Blu-Ray gives you 5.
I don't see me ever getting anything related to HD-DVD. 3 DVD's worth just isn't enough. 5 DVD's worth I would consider if the burner came below £200 and discs below £5.
When people can demonstrate technology that gives you 1TB+ on a disc, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD look quite pathetic.
CD -> DVD = 700MB -> 9.4GB = 13 times increase
DVD -> Blu-Ray = 9.4GB -> 50GB = 5 times increase
DVD -> HVD = 9.4GB -> 3.9TB = 415 times increase
I think it would be great if they could make HVD discs 1TB each at the size of miniature CDs. I've never liked the size of standard CDs/DVDs. Mini discs just seem much stronger and would make it easier to design smaller computers. Plus that's what they use in a lot of films. When you see them using a standard size disc in Mission Impossible, it looks clumsy but those tiny UMD size discs look great and would even be usable on an ipod.
If we're talking about formats that have been developed primarily for movie distribution and PC recording then that changes things quite a bit.
HVD certainly sounds appealing but not as a movie distribution format but more of an archiving solution.
While neither HD DVD or Blu-Ray offer a 13x increase in space there wasn't a need to require such a space increase. Music has always been easier to compress than video. A more appropriate comparison would have been to compare VHS to DVD. I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.
The next problem is that we're simply looking from the wrong point of view here. The goal is to have transperancy from the master to the distributed format. Humans tend to default to thinking linearly and assume that more data means higher quality but there's a limit to what we can perceive.
Both Blu-Ray and HD DVD will come close to showing you what the master looks like. I'm not sure HVD would translate into a better viewing experience unless we're talking about a new codec
I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.
In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:
Quote:
How much could we store on a VHS video tape? Let's do a back of the envelope calculation:
Your AV Mac can digitize 320x240 video at 30 frames per second.
Let's ignore colour, since the VHS recorder won't record that very accurately, and lets assume that although the digitizer reads 256 levels of grey, we can only rely on recording 16 grey levels on the VHS tape with accuracy. Let's also allow for some horizontal smearing of the scan lines and only read 60 samples per line instead of the full 240.
With these somewhat conservative estimates, we get:
320 lines x 60 samples per line x 4 bits per sample x 30 frames per second = 2304000 bits per second = 2.3Mb/sec = 288 kbytes per second.
That makes 17 megabytes per minute, storing 2.7 GB on a 160 minute VHS tape.
In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:
The universe is a very consistent entity. One of the major rules is that you can't get something for nothing. One such example is that you can't magically get tremendous resilience to noise (digital) without the cost of a huge amount of (analog) message data.
VHS is an analog format, and hence it is difficult to make a good estimate on the amount of bits and bytes it can successfully hold without knowing a lot more about the format itself. Beyond that, in order to calculate the theoretical digital-data-equivalence of an analog format, you need to know the bandwidth limits of the analog [VHS] signal, and whether or not it uses an SSB filter (analog TV broadcast does).
IIRC, VHS tapes are too slow for use as digital playback devices. At one point, there were people using VHS tapes to store digital data, but the drive motor had to be made much faster in order to make it at all useful. The VHS media and read head have a relatively poor slew rate, so the bits have to be stretched way beyond the length that would provide 2.7GB of data.
By Glen Dickson -- Broadcasting & Cable, 6/26/2006
In this story:
PLAYERS DELAYED
MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
UPDATE DISCS
Twentieth Century Fox executives are showing off HD movies that Fox will be releasing this year on the new Blu-Ray optical-disc format.
Blu-Ray, which will deliver video in 1080-line progressive-scan high-definition and provide up to five times the storage of regular DVDs, is in competition with the HD-DVD format. Sony, Dell, a host of consumer-electronics manufacturers, and all the major movie studios except Universal support Blu-Ray.
PLAYERS DELAYED
The technology?s expansion has been hurt, however, by several delays in the introduction of players from Sony, Samsung and Pioneer. Samsung?s first Blu-Ray player, which will sell for around $1,000, is now hitting stores.
Sony Pictures has released its first seven titles. Among them are the Arnold Schwarzenegger classic The Terminator and Vin Diesel-vehicle XXX.
Meanwhile, the competing HD-DVD format is already on the market, backed by technology companies including Microsoft and Toshiba, as well as by the Universal, Warner Bros. and Paramount studios. Toshiba players priced at $500-$800 hit stores in April, although, with limited distribution, units are hard to find.
MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
HD-DVD content continues to trickle out from the studios. Warner Bros. announced June releases of HD-DVD titles, such as Syriana, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Lethal Weapon. But until the Blu-Ray battle with HD-DVD is resolved, many consumers are likely to be sitting on the sidelines.
To show off Blu-Ray earlier this month, Fox created a living-room environment at a Manhattan hotel, complete with a 65-inch Panasonic plasma 1080p display, to demonstrate several movies using prototype technology. Relying on a combination of a Pioneer Blu-Ray player and InterVideo WinDVD software, which provided the graphical user interface, Fox showed high-def clips from such movies as Independence Day and Master & Commander in stunning detail and clarity.
The demos only hinted at the full power of the 7.1-channel DTS-HD audio that is part of the Blu-Ray format, however, because DTS-HD?compatible consumer audio equipment is not yet available.
Another demonstration, which used a prototype Panasonic Blu-Ray player to show a clip from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, had no sound at all (the player is still under development, Fox explained).
Instead, this demo focused on the interactive features made possible by Blu-Ray?s use of the Java programming language. Among them: the ability for viewers to get a pop-up menu while watching the movie, launch graphic windows that give more information on individual actors, and save bookmarks of favorite scenes and store them on the flash memory of the Blu-Ray player itself. The next time the movie is cued up, the bookmarks immediately appear.
?The idea is to make it as consumer-friendly as possible,? explains Jacqueline Reed, executive director of DVD development for Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.
Blu-Ray players will also have the ability to connect to the Internet. A Java-based feature called BD Live will provide instant interactivity while a Blu-Ray disc is played, allowing a viewer to launch a streaming discussion with a movie?s director, says Clayton Biele, IT operations manager for Fox Domestic Home Entertainment.
UPDATE DISCS
Through BD Live, the content on Blu-Ray discs also can be securely updated, says Biele, letting users download supplemental language tracks as they become available.
Fox is planning to launch roughly 20 HD titles on Blu-Ray in the fourth quarter, including such blockbuster titles as Ice Age 2, X-Men: The Last Stand, Omen 666 and Garfield 2, along with catalog fare.
Individual titles will probably have a list price of under $40 but sell for under $30 in stores, says Steve Feldstein, senior VP of corporate and marketing communications, Fox Filmed Entertainment.
A Blu-Ray release this year of a Fox television property, such as 24, is also a possibility, Feldstein says, but he cautions that no firm plans are in place.
I think the Sammy has a bug in their player. It's been confimed that the Sammy is a 1080i player that takes the signal and runs it through a de-interlacer for final 1080p output. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the HDMI issues or not.
I think the Sammy has a bug in their player. It's been confimed that the Sammy is a 1080i player that takes the signal and runs it through a de-interlacer for final 1080p output. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the HDMI issues or not.
If that was the case shouldn't the picture still look the same through
HDMI & component?
The Panasonic guy was surprised by the difference in quality.
Comments
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
Outside of the space needed for the higher resolution and better quality audio what else is this going to be used for? Do we honestly believe that we are going to get more features for the same price? In most cases, the entertainment industry only gives more when they need to get the audience to open their wallets again and not before.
I get the boxed set compressed into one disc theory and I drool over the thought. This is cool for TV shows, but as I will explain later is already becoming outdated.
I am a very big fan of video games, in fact I work in the industry, and I just don't see the need for all this space. Granted more and more developers are crying that they can't fit everything on DVDs anymore but that doesn't mean that it's needed. Sure some developers can do marvelous things with FMVs and Audio (which take up the bulk of this space), but does more of them make a better game - almost everytime the answer is no.
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.
TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.
Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.
Outside of the PS3 and Wii dropping - these are what's really really good in non-portable Video Games
Console: GTA - announces next-generation GTA will have episodic content through XBOX Live
PC: World of Warcraft - over 6 million subscribers online-only game
PC: Spore - this thing can probably fit on a CD and has more gameplay possibilities than anything out right now
Console: Xbox Live Arcade - don't even need to pop a disc in
With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.
The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----
I'll take off my HD DVD hat and answer as squarely as I can.
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
For premium features size is an issue. Say you want lossless audio and HD video well you'd need 18Mbps for 7.1 Lossless audio on top of whatever you video bitrate you have. Only a 50GB disc is going to be able to give you a 2hr movie and 7.1 lossless audio. That's Blu-Ray right now because of the extra space. Some people feel that lossless audio though is overkill for the space it requires.
For video games I think people overestimate just how much space 3D textures take up. I don't expect to see 50GB PS3 games anytime soon. I think the way to deal with size is to have compressed textures on disc that get stored on a HDD option for the player and Massively Multiplayer online games handling the rest.
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
Yup in the next decade On Demand will eventually usurp both physical formats. I look for cable ops to start using the the more efficient codecs which will reduce the bitstarved macroblocking that I see on a daily basis with Comcast HD feeds. It's inevitable that On Demand will take over. In fact Microsoft and Disney persued iHD the interactive layers because it's small and can work in a IPTV environment. The writing is on the wall for those with large pipes. Eventually you'll just choose your movie and bam ..streamed to your HD with DVR like control.
I agree that we have to look at the sign of the times and realize that access trumps many things. Why spend $20 for that movie you will only watch a few times when you can just view it for a portion of that whenever you want?
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32554
release date fits in schedule?
Originally posted by liquidjin
1. Is all of this extra space even worth it to consumers?
Thanks for the post, first off, and welcome to the forum.
I think you answered your own question on this one. You have the convenience of consolidated TV shows or movies on one disc, convenience of one disc or very little number of discs for backup purposes, and the convenience of extra storage for better video games. I think it comes down to what you define as "better" video games, because, as I see it, from a graphics and audio perspective, games have gotten better with time, and more storage. They ought to improve moreso given that they have a future-proof path of storage available to them, especially in regards to Blu-ray. If your referring to the game experience as being "better" as far as enjoyment or the theme is concerned, I think it is quite a debatable point as to whether or not games have gotten better.
2. Don't the concepts of Blu-ray and HD-DVD go against the trend of all the industries that are supposed to support them?
HD is Digital Cable/Satellite first then Movies not the other way around. An HDTV would be pointless for most of the world if we could not eventually watch all of our daily programming with it as well as movies. With that said, we all know the direction the Cable companies and DSL providers are heading nowadays - On demand, high speed broadband, fiber to the curb, etc.... Where is there room for BR and HDDVD on the consumer side? They win on cost, convenience, and ROI.
TV shows are already downloadable is that just going to disappear? With the time it takes for a boxed set to come out where is the advantage of getting it on BD/HDDVD? The way I see it myself and most other people will download it, TIVO it, whatever it and then record it ourselves on to a BD or HD-DVD whatever format we prefer if at all, since we can always get them again.
Video games are still going to be on a hard copy format for the time being but all signs point towards other forms of distribution. For a bunch of reasons, the subscription model is taking the entertainment industry by storm. Granted all games are not going this route, but the ones targeted at the HD audience are at the very least exploring it.
In a nutshell, once the global network infrastructure can support it, I believe online distribution of full-length HD movies (in 1920 X 1080 resolution) or TV shows will be it, however, we are far from it, and in the meantime Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, if the a la carte model from iTunes has shown anyone anything, people like to own the content they purchase not just subscribe to it, thus another reason why Blu-ray or HD DVD will find its place. Moreover, you have those individuals who want the most excellent quality, and not compressed versions of media or versions that are inferior found on cable,...again another reason why Blu-ray of HD DVD will continue to have its place.
With that said, I'm in the camp stating that neither will win in the consumer market and this is all just hype to sell more TVs. Blu-ray however has a chance to become something used for backups if they can cost-effectively achieve those 100GB and 200GB capacities.
The world has moved on since VHS and DVD and just like with HDTV we can't go back. Who wants to buy their collection all over again only to have it rereleased who knows how many more times? I already have an HDTV and a XBOX 360, so when the PS3 drops I'll grab mine like most other people because I get a 1st generation HD player that can be used to play exclusive games I could not play otherwise. However, I won't be buying their media, made that mistake two too many times. Rental companies get another life - NetFlix <<<----
Who said anything about having to buy your whole collection again? If you don't want to, you don't have too. Both formats will upconvert your existing DVD media to either 1080i or 1080P. The fact is, with this generation of HD media in the form of Blu-ray or HD DVD, we can go back, at least with DVDs that we own and continue to enjoy them. Regarding purchasing any future media on disc, you say you won't,....but do you really mean it?
Originally posted by k_munic
this sounds like a HDDVDBluRayComboDrive, aka Superdrive II :
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=32554
release date fits in schedule?
Doubt it. I think Samsung's plans for a Universal player is more of a worst case scenario, kind of like Sony's venture with NEC...
http://www.businessweek.com/ap/finan...h_down&chan=tc
Samsung backs commitment to Blu-ray
JUN. 22 12:08 P.M. ET Samsung Electronics said Thursday it is "fully committed" to Blu-Ray, a DVD format backed by Sony Corp., as well as a number of Hollywood studios, including Disney, MGM and Twentieth Century Fox.
Samsung said its new Blu-ray DVD player, the BD-P1000, will be available on June 25, at the expected price of $999.
The announcement comes two days after Sony Pictures released the first seven films on DVD in the Blu-ray format.
It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.
Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]
Toshiba knows they can't outdo the marketing muscle of the BDA. They best thing they can do is set a price point that is attractive and wait for the component costs to come down and pull them out of the red.
Originally posted by Splinemodel
EETimes, iSuppli, tear down a Toshiba HD-DVD reader
It turns out that it actually costs ~$674 in materials, so the fact that Sony will be losing money on the PS3 seems to be a moot point: Toshiba is losing over $200 per unit.
Desperation is a stinky cologne. [sorry, couldn't resist]
You beat me to it! Good find.
In any case, I can't say I share the same outlook as the individual at the end of the article. I just don't see how one company (Toshiba), with one player (or two if you want to include the $799 model, still wondering what that increase in price gives you), will be able to compete with 6 companies (Sony, Samsung, Pioneer, Philips, Panasonic, and Sharp) with 7 players--one from each + the PS3.
Time will tell though, that's for sure. The holidays will be an interesting time indeed!
http://www.pocket-lint.co.uk/news.php?newsId=3746
Samsung not ready to confirm dual-format Blu-ray and HD drive yet
23 June 2006 - Pocket-lint has an update to yesterday's story about Samsung possibly bringing out a dual-format Blu-ray and High Definition optical drive.
Samsung has released a statement that reads: "Samsung Electronics is fully committed to the Blu-ray format and currently only has plans to introduce a Blu-ray player to the market. Samsung is looking forward to a very successful launch of the BD-P1000 which will be available on retail shelves June 25th for a $999 MAP price in the United States."
A report on DigitalWorld Tokyo had cited a Samsung manager confirming that Samsung has plans to bring out a dual-format player.
He was quoted as saying: "We don't have a plan to make an HD-DVD-only player but are considering a universal player."
"We are preparing HD-DVD now and if we launch a universal player it will be the end of this year or early next year."
Marzetta7 if it's true that we are still in the early adoption phase then it matters little that their are 7 BD players and 3 HD DVD. Clearly there isn't really enough differentiation between the players yet to make the choice anything more personal than tapping into an aethetic preference for casing.
Looking forware to 2nd generation stuff but glad that both formats are shipping now. HD movies and lower cost front projection equals total bliss.
10 Reasons Both Formats Will Fail
I don't agree completely with each point; however, the fact is that--personally--I am not convinced that there is any mass-market need for any of this (unless the studios basically say, if you want to buy our great movie "TITLE", you have to buy it in a HD format). I am beginning to hope that both formats die miserably. In a perfect world, we wouldn't even need those stupid plastic discs for content; although, it is very, very difficult to beat the bandwidth of FedEx.
I'll stay out of the HD evolution for a couple of more years (my tv has worked for over 15, and for as much as I use it, it is fine).
Their Top 10
1. Nobody likes false starts. With the debut of HD DVD at an underwhelming 720p/1080i...For Toshiba to release a player that didn?t support true HD at 1080p (even though the software does), and with no lossless audio
Holy smokes did this guy get ANYTHING right in this first point? Funny there are so few TVs that offer 1080p inputs and even fewer that offer a 1:1 pixel map for 1080p (others use wobulation to share mirrors) thus I don't really get why he's "underwhelmed" about 1080i and no disc has shipped with 720p. It's obvious the he doesn't understand the benefits of de-interlacing with Inverse Telecine. Dolby TrueHD 2-channel is MANDATORY which means support is in EVERY player so if it's not on the disc it's the studios fault. Let's hope the next one is better. Keep in mind DVD launched without Paramount, Disney and others who wanted DIVX to thrive
2. Format Wars Don?t Sell Players
Yes but they don't necessarily prohibit the success of formats either. Universal DVD Burners are the most recent success of to warring formats. Consumers are pretty adept and weighing the pros and cons of different formats. There's always competition.
3. HD DVD and Blu-ray are NOT Quantum Leaps in Technology
They don't have to be. They simply need to be valued over today's DVD. The killer app here isn't the HD content but the rapidly decreasing prices of large screen TVs and projectors. NTSC looked fine until TVs got larger than 32". DVDs looked fine until 60" and larger TV and projected screens. At my day gig we sell decent projectors for $800 and nothing beats the experience of sharp video on a large screen.
4. Studios are Conservative, Greedy and Unmotivated
Many companies hate change. Theres inherent risk in change and if they can profit and keep the status quo that's what they feel comfortable with.
5. Playstation3 Cannot Save the World
On one hand I believe the PS3 could have a major impact on BD-ROM sales but there's the possibility that many people simply purchase it as a game console.
6. Those Who Ignore History?
Consumers are even more ambivalent about audio than they are about video. How many wall mounted plasmas do you see flanked by thin "lifestyle" speakers that sound like crap? Audio was never a big deal with people. Many profess to have a "tin ear" and DVD-A and SACD made fatal flaws. No digital hookup meant the use of 6 analog cable and the media pricing was higher than CD. People had been complaining for years about CD pricing so creating a more expensive format was not a way to engender the product into the hearts of people. Not to mention it's difficult to have a 5.1 playback system tweaked right.
7. People Want Technology that?s 15 Minutes Ahead of Its Time
It's a good thing to have SD mixed in with HD. After becoming acclimated to HD you realize how sucky SD is. There's your motive for HD movies right there.
8. Enthusiasts Are Getting Tired (and Smarter)
Yes but being an enthusiast is also knowing the new tech comes out to replace old tech. When one enthusiast retires he/she passes the torch on to the next one.
9. A Skeptical News Media Doesn?t Help
I?ll admit it, we?re part of the ?problem? (though I?d like to think we?re saving consumers from making the next big mistake). An increasingly skeptical news media isn?t buying into the hype of HD DVD and Blu-ray, especially not after wasting millions of editorial words on DVD-Audio and SACD, only to watch the software and technology dwindle into obscurity. Even after almost 6 years, most consumers continue to proffer puzzled looks when these audio formats are mentioned. The new DVD formats are getting plenty of press, mind you, but with the Toshiba flop and lack of software, the fact that the Emperor has no clothes (at least not yet) is hard to avoid.
Well the rule is that negative attention provokes more response. That's why the news is riddled with "dramatic" stories. I wouldn't call millions of editorial words wasted. You could be sitting in an unemployment line as another option so I think. I trust the news media when I want to read creative writing passed off as accurate reporting. I think the reality is a lot closer to news media being rather clueless and of no help for consumers.
10. Broadband and IPTV to Compete?
Certainly is an option worth looking into. Having more sources of movies and entertainment only seek to broaden and enrich my choices. I'd prefer both avenues.
Summary:
There's far too many people trying to tell me why I shouldn't like HD DVD or Blu-Ray. Their myopic view simply is shutting off the overall picture. If you have an HDTV and you want to see the best picture possible you get HD on your cable or you purchase one of these players. Whether you consider the player to be a good value or not rest soley on your own preferences.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Holographic_Versatile_Disc
http://www.hvd-alliance.org/abouthvd/hvd_faq.html
HVD discs were said to be enterprise ready this year and capable of holding 3.9TB per disc.
That's the kind of thing I want to see from a next-gen disc format.
Neither HD-DVD nor Blu-Ray offer enough storage to warrant such expensive upgrades. Hardly anyone will have HDTVs or fast enough computers to play HD media so getting HD movies is pointless.
In terms of computer storage, most people will probably just get single layer discs like they still do with DVD, even though it's been around for years. For HD-DVD, that gives you the equivalent of 3 DVDs of space and Blu-Ray gives you 5.
I don't see me ever getting anything related to HD-DVD. 3 DVD's worth just isn't enough. 5 DVD's worth I would consider if the burner came below £200 and discs below £5.
When people can demonstrate technology that gives you 1TB+ on a disc, both Blu-Ray and HD-DVD look quite pathetic.
CD -> DVD = 700MB -> 9.4GB = 13 times increase
DVD -> Blu-Ray = 9.4GB -> 50GB = 5 times increase
DVD -> HVD = 9.4GB -> 3.9TB = 415 times increase
I think it would be great if they could make HVD discs 1TB each at the size of miniature CDs. I've never liked the size of standard CDs/DVDs. Mini discs just seem much stronger and would make it easier to design smaller computers. Plus that's what they use in a lot of films. When you see them using a standard size disc in Mission Impossible, it looks clumsy but those tiny UMD size discs look great and would even be usable on an ipod.
If we're talking about formats that have been developed primarily for movie distribution and PC recording then that changes things quite a bit.
HVD certainly sounds appealing but not as a movie distribution format but more of an archiving solution.
While neither HD DVD or Blu-Ray offer a 13x increase in space there wasn't a need to require such a space increase. Music has always been easier to compress than video. A more appropriate comparison would have been to compare VHS to DVD. I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.
The next problem is that we're simply looking from the wrong point of view here. The goal is to have transperancy from the master to the distributed format. Humans tend to default to thinking linearly and assume that more data means higher quality but there's a limit to what we can perceive.
Both Blu-Ray and HD DVD will come close to showing you what the master looks like. I'm not sure HVD would translate into a better viewing experience unless we're talking about a new codec
Originally posted by hmurchison
I assure you VHS holds more than 700MB worth of data.
In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:
How much could we store on a VHS video tape? Let's do a back of the envelope calculation:
Your AV Mac can digitize 320x240 video at 30 frames per second.
Let's ignore colour, since the VHS recorder won't record that very accurately, and lets assume that although the digitizer reads 256 levels of grey, we can only rely on recording 16 grey levels on the VHS tape with accuracy. Let's also allow for some horizontal smearing of the scan lines and only read 60 samples per line instead of the full 240.
With these somewhat conservative estimates, we get:
320 lines x 60 samples per line x 4 bits per sample x 30 frames per second = 2304000 bits per second = 2.3Mb/sec = 288 kbytes per second.
That makes 17 megabytes per minute, storing 2.7 GB on a 160 minute VHS tape.
Originally posted by kupan787
In case anyone really cares, here is what I found:
The universe is a very consistent entity. One of the major rules is that you can't get something for nothing. One such example is that you can't magically get tremendous resilience to noise (digital) without the cost of a huge amount of (analog) message data.
VHS is an analog format, and hence it is difficult to make a good estimate on the amount of bits and bytes it can successfully hold without knowing a lot more about the format itself. Beyond that, in order to calculate the theoretical digital-data-equivalence of an analog format, you need to know the bandwidth limits of the analog [VHS] signal, and whether or not it uses an SSB filter (analog TV broadcast does).
IIRC, VHS tapes are too slow for use as digital playback devices. At one point, there were people using VHS tapes to store digital data, but the drive motor had to be made much faster in order to make it at all useful. The VHS media and read head have a relatively poor slew rate, so the bits have to be stretched way beyond the length that would provide 2.7GB of data.
http://www.broadcastingcable.com/ind...leID=CA6346827
Fox Makes Blu-Ray Push
By Glen Dickson -- Broadcasting & Cable, 6/26/2006
In this story:
PLAYERS DELAYED
MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
UPDATE DISCS
Twentieth Century Fox executives are showing off HD movies that Fox will be releasing this year on the new Blu-Ray optical-disc format.
Blu-Ray, which will deliver video in 1080-line progressive-scan high-definition and provide up to five times the storage of regular DVDs, is in competition with the HD-DVD format. Sony, Dell, a host of consumer-electronics manufacturers, and all the major movie studios except Universal support Blu-Ray.
PLAYERS DELAYED
The technology?s expansion has been hurt, however, by several delays in the introduction of players from Sony, Samsung and Pioneer. Samsung?s first Blu-Ray player, which will sell for around $1,000, is now hitting stores.
Sony Pictures has released its first seven titles. Among them are the Arnold Schwarzenegger classic The Terminator and Vin Diesel-vehicle XXX.
Meanwhile, the competing HD-DVD format is already on the market, backed by technology companies including Microsoft and Toshiba, as well as by the Universal, Warner Bros. and Paramount studios. Toshiba players priced at $500-$800 hit stores in April, although, with limited distribution, units are hard to find.
MOVIES TRICKLE OUT
HD-DVD content continues to trickle out from the studios. Warner Bros. announced June releases of HD-DVD titles, such as Syriana, Kiss Kiss Bang Bang and Lethal Weapon. But until the Blu-Ray battle with HD-DVD is resolved, many consumers are likely to be sitting on the sidelines.
To show off Blu-Ray earlier this month, Fox created a living-room environment at a Manhattan hotel, complete with a 65-inch Panasonic plasma 1080p display, to demonstrate several movies using prototype technology. Relying on a combination of a Pioneer Blu-Ray player and InterVideo WinDVD software, which provided the graphical user interface, Fox showed high-def clips from such movies as Independence Day and Master & Commander in stunning detail and clarity.
The demos only hinted at the full power of the 7.1-channel DTS-HD audio that is part of the Blu-Ray format, however, because DTS-HD?compatible consumer audio equipment is not yet available.
Another demonstration, which used a prototype Panasonic Blu-Ray player to show a clip from The League of Extraordinary Gentlemen, had no sound at all (the player is still under development, Fox explained).
Instead, this demo focused on the interactive features made possible by Blu-Ray?s use of the Java programming language. Among them: the ability for viewers to get a pop-up menu while watching the movie, launch graphic windows that give more information on individual actors, and save bookmarks of favorite scenes and store them on the flash memory of the Blu-Ray player itself. The next time the movie is cued up, the bookmarks immediately appear.
?The idea is to make it as consumer-friendly as possible,? explains Jacqueline Reed, executive director of DVD development for Twentieth Century Fox Home Entertainment.
Blu-Ray players will also have the ability to connect to the Internet. A Java-based feature called BD Live will provide instant interactivity while a Blu-Ray disc is played, allowing a viewer to launch a streaming discussion with a movie?s director, says Clayton Biele, IT operations manager for Fox Domestic Home Entertainment.
UPDATE DISCS
Through BD Live, the content on Blu-Ray discs also can be securely updated, says Biele, letting users download supplemental language tracks as they become available.
Fox is planning to launch roughly 20 HD titles on Blu-Ray in the fourth quarter, including such blockbuster titles as Ice Age 2, X-Men: The Last Stand, Omen 666 and Garfield 2, along with catalog fare.
Individual titles will probably have a list price of under $40 but sell for under $30 in stores, says Steve Feldstein, senior VP of corporate and marketing communications, Fox Filmed Entertainment.
A Blu-Ray release this year of a Fox television property, such as 24, is also a possibility, Feldstein says, but he cautions that no firm plans are in place.
the video quality of Samsung's new BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player
over componenet vs HDMI & the component looked better.
Story Here.
Originally posted by mello
I just read an interesting artical on DigitalBits.com that compares
the video quality of Samsung's new BD-P1000 Blu-ray Disc player
over componenet vs HDMI & the component looked better.
Story Here.
I think the Sammy has a bug in their player. It's been confimed that the Sammy is a 1080i player that takes the signal and runs it through a de-interlacer for final 1080p output. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the HDMI issues or not.
Originally posted by hmurchison
I think the Sammy has a bug in their player. It's been confimed that the Sammy is a 1080i player that takes the signal and runs it through a de-interlacer for final 1080p output. I'm not sure if this is the reason for the HDMI issues or not.
If that was the case shouldn't the picture still look the same through
HDMI & component?
The Panasonic guy was surprised by the difference in quality.