Its not just the cpu that changed, the motherboard and graphics cards changed as well.
Stil not sure I see a "few hundred dollars" in component cost difference. Apple has been using the same basic components as the rest of the industry for years.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
No longer do Big endian firmware / drivers have to be written for the graphics cards.
That is a sunk cost, not a component cost.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
No longer does apple develop their motherboards (intel does, which are usually priced cheap),
You are assuming a lot here. Like that Apple actually went that route. Maybe yes, maybe no.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
and now they are buying cpu's from one of the biggest cpu suppliers in the world.
Which only means anything if their chip price (to Apple) is cheaper than what Apple was getting before. Perhaps it is. Even so, I think you are optimistic hoping for a "few hundred dollar" price change.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
The #'s that support that theory are given to us from dell.. one of the cheapest suppliers on the market. They show the #'s for the core duo motherboard and cpu... they show how cheap it CAN be.
And Dell is willing to accept lower profit margins...another part of the cost of the product.
Stil not sure I see a "few hundred dollars" in component cost difference. Apple has been using the same basic components as the rest of the industry for years.
That is a sunk cost, not a component cost.
True but its still a cost
Quote:
You are assuming a lot here. Like that Apple actually went that route. Maybe yes, maybe no.
Trust me, they are intel boards. Obiviously these photos are too small to show it, but intel is stamped on the boards which will be shown in the new iMac apple repair guides Disassembled iMac photos
Quote:
Which only means anything if their chip price (to Apple) is cheaper than what Apple was getting before. Perhaps it is. Even so, I think you are optimistic hoping for a "few hundred dollar" price change.
I'm talking as a whole counting all the changes to cheaper hardware. Face it, x86 hardware is much cheaper than ppc hardware.
Quote:
And Dell is willing to accept lower profit margins...another part of the cost of the product.
True... but that doesn't change the fact that the hardware is cheaper.
Did you not follow the link at the 6th post (with the included image)???
I don't know where you're seeing that list price... so I don't know what config you're looking at... but as you can see from the post above... it is in deed 1149 with a 17" display for a 1.66ghz core duo.
I just followed links for notebooks and came to this page, which shows the list price of the Inspiron E1705 as $2456, with a sale of $250 off, putting it at $2206. I see your link too, but I don't know why there's such a difference.
True... but that doesn't change the fact that the hardware is cheaper.
No...but profit is a "cost" of the end product...and if Apple's margins are 2x what Dell's are, then you are likely to see much less of a cost reduction.
Still not sure where you are going to find a "few hundred dollars". Let's take a "few hundred dollars" and call it $400-$500 (which is what "a few" means to me). That suggests that the $1299 iMac would be $799-$899! And the $1699 would be $1199 - $1299. I am seriously skeptical that Apple has that much room to work on those products.
In the end, I don't really care much...because it (their price) is worth it to me.
Still not sure where you are going to find a "few hundred dollars". Let's take a "few hundred dollars" and call it $400-$500 (which is what "a few" means to me). That suggests that the $1299 iMac would be $799-$899! And the $1699 would be $1199 - $1299. I am seriously skeptical that Apple has that much room to work on those products.
In the end, I don't really care much...because it (their price) is worth it to me.
"Few" has always been described to me as 2-3. When I meant few I meant two. Perhaps this is where we got off foot. I just think that 2k and 2.5k are too easy of numbers. I believe the price could easily be cheaper. And it is! I mean look at the dev discount. You get the same machine for 1599.99. Thats 400 off... which is STILL a profit to apple (which they have told the devs.. email an ADC rep if you don't believe me). The edu sales are 1799.99 and apple still turns a profit.
And as you said, in the end I don't really care much because I do pay dev discount prices. But I think for apple's reputation, a lot more people are going to be comparing apple's hardware to comparable pc hardware and justify the difference in the OS... Believe me I won't be the first / last one to bring this subject up. I've been hoping for someone to throw in some real world #'s into this thread, but I guess i am unfortunate.
There is almost no chance that Apple is paying less for the core duo than they did for the G4, unless they negotiated one hell of a deal with Intel.
One of the things that the G4 had going for it was that it was dirt, and I mean dirt, cheap. So you're looking at a fairly long in the tooth inexpensive embedded processor vs. Intel's brand new best they got dual core.
The idea that the change to Intel somehow equaled reduced parts costs was never based on anything at all, as far as I can tell, other than some vague notion that because Intel sells so many chips they are inclined to sell them for less, which is simply not true, and a failure to appreciate how very inexpensive G4s actually are.
I would guess that, far from gouging on a now cheaper to manufacture laptop, Apple actually has absorbed a cut in their margins in order to maintain something like parity with their previous PowerBook pricing.
"Few" has always been described to me as 2-3. When I meant few I meant two.
Ahhh...well that makes some difference.
( As I've always heard it ... "couple" == 2-3, "few" == 4-5, "several" == 6-7 )
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
I just think that 2k and 2.5k are too easy of numbers.
Well, I'll bet that Apple works very hard at trying to figure out the right pricing for their products. I doubt it is easy. There are a number of factors that must go into it. Apple will never compete with Dell on margins. They cannot, they are different kinds of companies. Maybe this means Apple will eventually go out of (the computer) business.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
I believe the price could easily be cheaper.
Well, you can believe it all you want, that won't make it true. You have no idea what their component and overhead costs are. You can make some educated guesses, but unless you are real industry insider, I'd bet you'll be wrong.
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
And it is! I mean look at the dev discount. You get the same machine for 1599.99. Thats 400 off... which is STILL a profit to apple (which they have told the devs.. email an ADC rep if you don't believe me). The edu sales are 1799.99 and apple still turns a profit.
So? You don't know how much of a profit is left...and it may well be too little to justify selling in large quantities (they sell to developers at a steep discount, sacrificing some profit, for a reason...to get them to develop application so they can sell more computers to everyone else).
Quote:
Originally posted by emig647
a lot more people are going to be comparing apple's hardware to comparable pc hardware and justify the difference in the OS... Believe me I won't be the first / last one to bring this subject up.
No doubt. And Apple will have to deal with that. In the end, I think it will make very little difference.
( As I've always heard it ... "couple" == 2-3, "few" == 4-5, "several" == 6-7 )
No doubt. And Apple will have to deal with that. In the end, I think it will make very little difference.
lol, I asked a friend what few meant to him and he said 3-7... sorry for the misunderstanding.
Anyways, like I said... I was in NO WAY trying to say apple should be competing with dell on prices. I don't want anyone to think I was saying that. I was trying to show a price difference in the same hardware and show that it should be cheaper. Before we had nothing to compare to. Apples were the only ones with ppc architecture. Now you can literally sit the mac book pro next to the competing laptops and ask what has what feature. You can have the exact same laptop... and you can bet that there will be a price difference. But others are right, apple has different margins etc. They develop software, etc.
Yes apple will have to deal with that. The problem I see is apple's market share not growing a large amount like I had hoped with this switch. I was thinking prices would at the very least come a little bit with the architecture switch. In all fairness I'll give apple another 18 months for prices to slide down a bit. I'm sure it costs a lot of money for this switch.
As i've stated in other threads, the mac book pro is simply a developer machine... nothing else. It was released to get more universal binaries out quicker. Apple would have shot themselves in the foot by just releasing a mac mini and ibook with intel first... no one would buy them! why? because no x86 software is out of them yet because there hasn't been a real x86 apple developer machine yet. And developers wouldn't buy a mac mini / ibook to dev on. Now there is a nice dev machine... now we can expect more software... So we'll have to wait and see what happens over the course of the next "couple" of years :P
Apple's margins are typically over 20% versus the industry average of 6-11%
Which, at this price level, should make the Mac about $140 more, not $440 (let alone $600).
If Dell is making ~10% off a $1400 sale, then, if Apple has the same component costs but charges $2000, then Apple is raking in ~57%.
If Apple were merely making 20% off the same component costs, it would be charging roughly $1530.
But, then again, we all know the reality. Apple goes through--or at least historically has gone through--a much more stringent quality assurance process than bargain outlets like Dell. Apple uses better materials, designs things thoughtfully and carefully (generally...coughPB5300cough). Dell relies on technophobes like my wife's parents. They buy a Dell because it's cheap. They use it for a year or 18 months. It dies, they bring it to the shop and it gets resusitated for a few more months, and dies again. They see a great price on a new Dell...and buy it.
Not kidding: They've bought three computers since December 2001, and they'll probably get a new one in the summer/fall. My wife and I still only have our Quicksilver, bought in August 2001. Yes, it's getting long in the tooth--and I'm actually trying to find an excuse to upgrade--but there's no compelling reason. It will probably be January-April 2007 when we buy a new comp. (rassum-frassum ).
The Apple is 1" thin, comes with a built-in USB2 webcam, a power adapter with a magnetic connecter, a solid-state track pad, an aluminium case, a much brighter (and beautiful) display - there is no comparison between the two displays (!!), a much nicer keyboard, the PCI-express cardslot (not sure if this is in the Dell), EFI bios (superfast boot time), a remote control, etc.
The Apple is 1" thin, comes with a built-in USB2 webcam, a power adapter with a magnetic connecter, a solid-state track pad, an aluminium case, a much brighter (and beautiful) display - there is no comparison between the two displays (!!), a much nicer keyboard, the PCI-express cardslot (not sure if this is in the Dell), EFI bios (superfast boot time), a remote control, etc.
Yes on the PCI-express card slot... hence the Nvidia 7800 go upgrade.
I just want to point out that I'm not saying the prices should be the same. I'm simply stating that apple's prices have not changed, even though the price of hardware should have gone down. Don't you think they should be at least a few hundred cheaper?
Actually I don't think they should be any cheaper. It's obvious DELL just assembles cheap PC's using the cheapest possible components they can find. They cut costs everywhere. They are even using older (and cheaper) RAM. Buying that almost outdated RAM in mass quantities will get it to you at great prices because the manufacturing of it will be over shortly, and the vendor will want it gone. Yeah, you'll get a great deal, but in the long run your computer is outdated that much faster. If you take into account the resale price of an Apple vs. a DELL the DELL is actually costing you a few hundred more. They don't offer half of what Apple offers IMO. A Mac, and the Mac OS is worth a few dollars more to me. I like fact that they supply everything, and are the beginning, and end of the solution. Tech support is something I've never had to use, because everything worked right out of the box, and all the upgrades (software, and hardware) did too. And I've still never had a Virus.
Bottom line. DELL is a mass assembly system. That's about it. You get absolute basic hardware with no frills, and that's not what Apple is about. Comparing the two user bases as if they compete for something is almost ridiculous in itself. One group is out for cheap up front, the other saves money in the long run by buying a quality machine manufactured with long term quality, and and less system maintenance in mind. A better OS help too.
No kidding, you'd think I took away their first born child or something...
THE INTENTION OF THE PAGE WAS NOT TO COMPARE A DELL TO A MAC. IT WAS TO USE THE DELL AS A PRICE POINT.
THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW, LIKE, OMG!
so, can we use something other than dell as a pricepoint? why even use dell, really...just b/c they are the biggest sellers or something? they sell cuz they're seen as cheap...duh.
Comments
Originally posted by emig647
Its not just the cpu that changed, the motherboard and graphics cards changed as well.
Stil not sure I see a "few hundred dollars" in component cost difference. Apple has been using the same basic components as the rest of the industry for years.
Originally posted by emig647
No longer do Big endian firmware / drivers have to be written for the graphics cards.
That is a sunk cost, not a component cost.
Originally posted by emig647
No longer does apple develop their motherboards (intel does, which are usually priced cheap),
You are assuming a lot here. Like that Apple actually went that route. Maybe yes, maybe no.
Originally posted by emig647
and now they are buying cpu's from one of the biggest cpu suppliers in the world.
Which only means anything if their chip price (to Apple) is cheaper than what Apple was getting before. Perhaps it is. Even so, I think you are optimistic hoping for a "few hundred dollar" price change.
Originally posted by emig647
The #'s that support that theory are given to us from dell.. one of the cheapest suppliers on the market. They show the #'s for the core duo motherboard and cpu... they show how cheap it CAN be.
And Dell is willing to accept lower profit margins...another part of the cost of the product.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Stil not sure I see a "few hundred dollars" in component cost difference. Apple has been using the same basic components as the rest of the industry for years.
That is a sunk cost, not a component cost.
True but its still a cost
You are assuming a lot here. Like that Apple actually went that route. Maybe yes, maybe no.
Trust me, they are intel boards. Obiviously these photos are too small to show it, but intel is stamped on the boards which will be shown in the new iMac apple repair guides Disassembled iMac photos
Which only means anything if their chip price (to Apple) is cheaper than what Apple was getting before. Perhaps it is. Even so, I think you are optimistic hoping for a "few hundred dollar" price change.
I'm talking as a whole counting all the changes to cheaper hardware. Face it, x86 hardware is much cheaper than ppc hardware.
And Dell is willing to accept lower profit margins...another part of the cost of the product.
True... but that doesn't change the fact that the hardware is cheaper.
Originally posted by emig647
Did you not follow the link at the 6th post (with the included image)???
I don't know where you're seeing that list price... so I don't know what config you're looking at... but as you can see from the post above... it is in deed 1149 with a 17" display for a 1.66ghz core duo.
I just followed links for notebooks and came to this page, which shows the list price of the Inspiron E1705 as $2456, with a sale of $250 off, putting it at $2206. I see your link too, but I don't know why there's such a difference.
Originally posted by emig647
True but its still a cost
Yes, but it is not a component cost.
Originally posted by emig647
Trust me, they are intel boards.
OK. So Intel does the engineering and design...for $. It is still quite possible the boards were designed for Apple...not off the shelf designs.
Originally posted by emig647
I'm talking as a whole counting all the changes to cheaper hardware. Face it, x86 hardware is much cheaper than ppc hardware.
Show me the #s and I'll "face it".
Originally posted by emig647
True... but that doesn't change the fact that the hardware is cheaper.
No...but profit is a "cost" of the end product...and if Apple's margins are 2x what Dell's are, then you are likely to see much less of a cost reduction.
Still not sure where you are going to find a "few hundred dollars". Let's take a "few hundred dollars" and call it $400-$500 (which is what "a few" means to me). That suggests that the $1299 iMac would be $799-$899! And the $1699 would be $1199 - $1299. I am seriously skeptical that Apple has that much room to work on those products.
In the end, I don't really care much...because it (their price) is worth it to me.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Still not sure where you are going to find a "few hundred dollars". Let's take a "few hundred dollars" and call it $400-$500 (which is what "a few" means to me). That suggests that the $1299 iMac would be $799-$899! And the $1699 would be $1199 - $1299. I am seriously skeptical that Apple has that much room to work on those products.
In the end, I don't really care much...because it (their price) is worth it to me.
"Few" has always been described to me as 2-3. When I meant few I meant two. Perhaps this is where we got off foot. I just think that 2k and 2.5k are too easy of numbers. I believe the price could easily be cheaper. And it is! I mean look at the dev discount. You get the same machine for 1599.99. Thats 400 off... which is STILL a profit to apple (which they have told the devs.. email an ADC rep if you don't believe me). The edu sales are 1799.99 and apple still turns a profit.
And as you said, in the end I don't really care much because I do pay dev discount prices. But I think for apple's reputation, a lot more people are going to be comparing apple's hardware to comparable pc hardware and justify the difference in the OS... Believe me I won't be the first / last one to bring this subject up. I've been hoping for someone to throw in some real world #'s into this thread, but I guess i am unfortunate.
One of the things that the G4 had going for it was that it was dirt, and I mean dirt, cheap. So you're looking at a fairly long in the tooth inexpensive embedded processor vs. Intel's brand new best they got dual core.
The idea that the change to Intel somehow equaled reduced parts costs was never based on anything at all, as far as I can tell, other than some vague notion that because Intel sells so many chips they are inclined to sell them for less, which is simply not true, and a failure to appreciate how very inexpensive G4s actually are.
I would guess that, far from gouging on a now cheaper to manufacture laptop, Apple actually has absorbed a cut in their margins in order to maintain something like parity with their previous PowerBook pricing.
Originally posted by emig647
"Few" has always been described to me as 2-3. When I meant few I meant two.
Ahhh...well that makes some difference.
( As I've always heard it ... "couple" == 2-3, "few" == 4-5, "several" == 6-7 )
Originally posted by emig647
I just think that 2k and 2.5k are too easy of numbers.
Well, I'll bet that Apple works very hard at trying to figure out the right pricing for their products. I doubt it is easy. There are a number of factors that must go into it. Apple will never compete with Dell on margins. They cannot, they are different kinds of companies. Maybe this means Apple will eventually go out of (the computer) business.
Originally posted by emig647
I believe the price could easily be cheaper.
Well, you can believe it all you want, that won't make it true. You have no idea what their component and overhead costs are. You can make some educated guesses, but unless you are real industry insider, I'd bet you'll be wrong.
Originally posted by emig647
And it is! I mean look at the dev discount. You get the same machine for 1599.99. Thats 400 off... which is STILL a profit to apple (which they have told the devs.. email an ADC rep if you don't believe me). The edu sales are 1799.99 and apple still turns a profit.
So? You don't know how much of a profit is left...and it may well be too little to justify selling in large quantities (they sell to developers at a steep discount, sacrificing some profit, for a reason...to get them to develop application so they can sell more computers to everyone else).
Originally posted by emig647
a lot more people are going to be comparing apple's hardware to comparable pc hardware and justify the difference in the OS... Believe me I won't be the first / last one to bring this subject up.
No doubt. And Apple will have to deal with that. In the end, I think it will make very little difference.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
Ahhh...well that makes some difference.
( As I've always heard it ... "couple" == 2-3, "few" == 4-5, "several" == 6-7 )
No doubt. And Apple will have to deal with that. In the end, I think it will make very little difference.
lol, I asked a friend what few meant to him and he said 3-7... sorry for the misunderstanding.
Anyways, like I said... I was in NO WAY trying to say apple should be competing with dell on prices. I don't want anyone to think I was saying that. I was trying to show a price difference in the same hardware and show that it should be cheaper. Before we had nothing to compare to. Apples were the only ones with ppc architecture. Now you can literally sit the mac book pro next to the competing laptops and ask what has what feature. You can have the exact same laptop... and you can bet that there will be a price difference. But others are right, apple has different margins etc. They develop software, etc.
Yes apple will have to deal with that. The problem I see is apple's market share not growing a large amount like I had hoped with this switch. I was thinking prices would at the very least come a little bit with the architecture switch. In all fairness I'll give apple another 18 months for prices to slide down a bit. I'm sure it costs a lot of money for this switch.
As i've stated in other threads, the mac book pro is simply a developer machine... nothing else. It was released to get more universal binaries out quicker. Apple would have shot themselves in the foot by just releasing a mac mini and ibook with intel first... no one would buy them! why? because no x86 software is out of them yet because there hasn't been a real x86 apple developer machine yet. And developers wouldn't buy a mac mini / ibook to dev on. Now there is a nice dev machine... now we can expect more software... So we'll have to wait and see what happens over the course of the next "couple" of years :P
Originally posted by nowayout11
Apple's margins are typically over 20% versus the industry average of 6-11%
Which, at this price level, should make the Mac about $140 more, not $440 (let alone $600).
If Dell is making ~10% off a $1400 sale, then, if Apple has the same component costs but charges $2000, then Apple is raking in ~57%.
If Apple were merely making 20% off the same component costs, it would be charging roughly $1530.
But, then again, we all know the reality. Apple goes through--or at least historically has gone through--a much more stringent quality assurance process than bargain outlets like Dell. Apple uses better materials, designs things thoughtfully and carefully (generally...coughPB5300cough). Dell relies on technophobes like my wife's parents. They buy a Dell because it's cheap. They use it for a year or 18 months. It dies, they bring it to the shop and it gets resusitated for a few more months, and dies again. They see a great price on a new Dell...and buy it.
Not kidding: They've bought three computers since December 2001, and they'll probably get a new one in the summer/fall. My wife and I still only have our Quicksilver, bought in August 2001. Yes, it's getting long in the tooth--and I'm actually trying to find an excuse to upgrade--but there's no compelling reason. It will probably be January-April 2007 when we buy a new comp. (rassum-frassum
The Apple is 1" thin, comes with a built-in USB2 webcam, a power adapter with a magnetic connecter, a solid-state track pad, an aluminium case, a much brighter (and beautiful) display - there is no comparison between the two displays (!!), a much nicer keyboard, the PCI-express cardslot (not sure if this is in the Dell), EFI bios (superfast boot time), a remote control, etc.
Originally posted by vgoklani
The two are completely different in design:
The Apple is 1" thin, comes with a built-in USB2 webcam, a power adapter with a magnetic connecter, a solid-state track pad, an aluminium case, a much brighter (and beautiful) display - there is no comparison between the two displays (!!), a much nicer keyboard, the PCI-express cardslot (not sure if this is in the Dell), EFI bios (superfast boot time), a remote control, etc.
Yes on the PCI-express card slot... hence the Nvidia 7800 go upgrade.
dell sells though the web or phone - apple has apple (retail) stores with skilled workers.
dell uses cheap hardware - apple uses higher quality hardware (tft's, ram etc)
dell copies - apple inovates
if you don't want to pay for mac os x, isight, remote control, cool/great/smart hardware etc etc: then you should buy a dell!
edit: typo
Originally posted by Blackcat
The sound of points being missed is getting deafening in this thread
No kidding, you'd think I took away their first born child or something...
THE INTENTION OF THE PAGE WAS NOT TO COMPARE A DELL TO A MAC. IT WAS TO USE THE DELL AS A PRICE POINT.
Originally posted by emig647
THE INTENTION OF THE PAGE WAS NOT TO COMPARE A DELL TO A MAC. IT WAS TO USE THE DELL AS A PRICE POINT.
I, for one, didn't miss the point. But did try to address/challenge some of the assumptions built into using Dell pricing as a benchmark.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I, for one, didn't miss the point. But did try to address/challenge some of the assumptions built into using Dell pricing as a benchmark.
yah I'm not naming any names
Originally posted by emig647
I just want to point out that I'm not saying the prices should be the same. I'm simply stating that apple's prices have not changed, even though the price of hardware should have gone down. Don't you think they should be at least a few hundred cheaper?
Actually I don't think they should be any cheaper. It's obvious DELL just assembles cheap PC's using the cheapest possible components they can find. They cut costs everywhere. They are even using older (and cheaper) RAM. Buying that almost outdated RAM in mass quantities will get it to you at great prices because the manufacturing of it will be over shortly, and the vendor will want it gone. Yeah, you'll get a great deal, but in the long run your computer is outdated that much faster. If you take into account the resale price of an Apple vs. a DELL the DELL is actually costing you a few hundred more. They don't offer half of what Apple offers IMO. A Mac, and the Mac OS is worth a few dollars more to me. I like fact that they supply everything, and are the beginning, and end of the solution. Tech support is something I've never had to use, because everything worked right out of the box, and all the upgrades (software, and hardware) did too. And I've still never had a Virus.
Bottom line. DELL is a mass assembly system. That's about it. You get absolute basic hardware with no frills, and that's not what Apple is about. Comparing the two user bases as if they compete for something is almost ridiculous in itself. One group is out for cheap up front, the other saves money in the long run by buying a quality machine manufactured with long term quality, and and less system maintenance in mind. A better OS help too.
Originally posted by emig647
No kidding, you'd think I took away their first born child or something...
THE INTENTION OF THE PAGE WAS NOT TO COMPARE A DELL TO A MAC. IT WAS TO USE THE DELL AS A PRICE POINT.
THANKS FOR LETTING US KNOW, LIKE, OMG!
so, can we use something other than dell as a pricepoint? why even use dell, really...just b/c they are the biggest sellers or something? they sell cuz they're seen as cheap...duh.