Intel hurries next-generation chips

1235789

Comments

  • Reply 81 of 175
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,951member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    Because you aren't doing what every company in the world does. you have to add the cost of the server software in as well. Once you account for that, things change dramatically.



    The software is something else, but that software has to be significantly cheaper to make up for the hardware + OS cost difference. Then there are concerns whether there is sufficient necessary software that runs on OS X.



    Quote:

    Free Linux distro's don't count, as few companies go that route. The ones that do, have much higher costs, as they have to take on the entire support load themselves.



    HP has $800 for the starter Linux server OS. That doesn't sound like free to me. But that does include support, more money for more support. Apple offers some pretty pricey support options for the server as well, even a decent warranty length is extra.
  • Reply 82 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by atomicham

    [B]Why should I take notice when the only systems I am concerned with are linux-based?



    Linux solutions, as I pointed out, are not cheaper, the commercial packages are more expensive when the number of clients go past a couple of dozen.





    Quote:

    What makes you believe that I lack the knowledge? Are you aware that while there is support for PCI-X, the vendors are pushing their products towards PCI-Express? Myrinet 10g is PCI-Express. The PCI-Express solution is the long-term trend. Even as CPUs become obsolete, I would like to keep my infrastructure. The infrastructure is a much higher outlay of cost than the actual computers, so I do not wish to purchase twice.



    I go by what people say. When you say that those solutions aren't available for PCI X, you show a lack of knowledge, or carelessness in your statements. I'm certainly not denying that Express solutions are coming out, and a few are here now. But that's not what you said. You said that InfiniBand and Raid weren't available for the current machines. I pointed out out that you are wrong.



    Quote:

    Furthermore, the optimized network and MPI drivers for the interconnects are all written for Linux. Virginia Tech (who spent upwards of 50x what I will) developed their own drivers. I don't have that sort of time or capability. I have to rely on existing support to manage and update the cluster.



    That's true. But, as I also pointed out, those drivers are available to anyone.



    Quote:

    Xserve RAID is a very nice solution. I never even introduced the topic. You can try to twist and alter the argument, but the computational power of Apple's Xserve solution is neither cost or power feasible any longer.



    You did introduce the topic when you said that RAID wasn't available for the G5 Xserves. So, while my original statement was that Apple's problem has been that they don't have 2 and 3 U machines, the rest is not correct.



    Quote:

    Those are excellent systems. But, don't introduce successful systems of 1-2 years ago as current arguments because pricing and performance have changed.



    My response was not to the current usefulness of the G5 itself, which, by the way, is still selling pretty well. It still has advantages for many classes of work. When SSE 4 comes out with Conroe and Woodcrest, later this year, things will be different, but not yet.



    [QUOTE]

    Heh. We are only talking about the present. You jump on me because I don't take into account the price of systems sold two years ago, then agree that Apple's current solutions are practically obsolete. Thank you for taking up our time.



    Heh yourself. The G5 will be useful until the new systems come out, as you should know. When everyone else's systems come out, so will Apple's.



    No one asked you to reply, you're wasting your own time.



    Quote:

    I have to spend my budget in the next 2 months. Apple cannot compete in the current situation. I hope that changes this fall with Woodcrest, I love Apple products; however, the world has options, and the current options are superior. Licensing is a non-issue for those of us who are not using Windows.



    If you insist on using Linux, then this discussion isn't even interesting, because the OS is the differentiating factor. Once that's taken out of the equation, the argument must be based upon other factors. But, with the OS in play, the situation is different.
  • Reply 83 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    [QUOTE]Originally posted by JeffDM

    [B]The software is something else, but that software has to be significantly cheaper to make up for the hardware + OS cost difference. Then there are concerns whether there is sufficient necessary software that runs on OS X.[QUOTE]



    It's the OS I'm talking about Jeff.





    Quote:

    HP has $800 for the starter Linux server OS. That doesn't sound like free to me. But that does include support, more money for more support. Apple offers some pretty pricey support options for the server as well, even a decent warranty length is extra.



    Go ahead and measure the costs for 10 seats, then measure for 25, then for 100. You will see startling differences.



    And don't forget that many companies do NOT want to use Linux. It's very easy for people to point to a free distro of Linux, and say the costs are very low. But, when you add the costs up, you find that they are not. They are expensive. Non Microsoft estimates for Linux costs are that they are right up there with MS's products. In that server space, Apple machines with OS X Server are much cheaper. All around.



    If you are doing the PC method of costing, you are making a big error.



    What is the reason for not buying a Mac? The up front cost is higher. But, every year, for a couple of decades, IDG does their cost survey. What do they find? In a corporation, using Mac's brings IT costs DOWN. By as much as 35% over the five year period that is always used for these calculations of total ownership costs.



    In fact, it turns out that even if a company has SOME Macs, and the rest PC's, the costs are still lower, and they get lower, the more PC's are exchanged for Mac's.



    This is true in the server space as well. But, the more Xserves are added, the less each one costs, if the client numbers get larger, because there are no more license fees being added on.



    Check out how much IBM, Novell, and Red Hat charge for client licenses, and the initial server OS cost. Then check out how much the continuing service costs. Apple is cheaper.



    If you then check out MS's prices, they are much higher.



    But, when you look at the IT department, you will find that it requires more specialty (rare and therefore expensive) personnel for Linux, then somewhat less for MS, then the least for OS X. When you factor that in, you will understand the consequences.
  • Reply 84 of 175
    Fair enough, but OS X server is terrible for most applications that don't involve number crunching.
  • Reply 85 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by theapplegenius

    Fair enough, but OS X server is terrible for most applications that don't involve number crunching.



    Not true at all. it is not always good for certain types of web serving. But as an application, or file server, it is superb.
  • Reply 86 of 175
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    Apple charges $499 for a 5 seat license, I think it is. But they only charge $999 for a 10 and up seat license.



    Mac OS X Server (10-client license) US$499



    Mac OS X Server (Unlimited client license) US$999



    There is absolutely ZERO way that Microsoft can touch that pricing structure?
  • Reply 87 of 175
    http://cgi.ebay.com/Conroe-2-4Ghz-10...QQcmdZViewItem



    There's one of those next-gen chips if anyone wants to try it.
  • Reply 88 of 175
    benroethigbenroethig Posts: 2,782member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    I don't see the second empty socket as being a problem. One of the main reasons why Apple hasn't gotten into the server market in a bigger way, outside of their own base, is because companies say that there is no upgrade path. It isn't the low end anyone cares about. Apple's server solution is about the cheapest on the market anywhere.



    The complaints I read about among corporate customers in ComputerWorld, InfoWorld, and others, is that Apple has no 2 or 3 height, 4 cpu, and 8 cpu solutions. This is what they want to see,



    As long as Apple refuses to cater to that market, they will never gain the amount of marketshare they could.



    And, it can't be said that a two core chip will be the answer, because everyone will be supplying, not only two chip, two core solutions, but four chip, two core (per chip) solutions. And later, four core. Apple will still be behind.



    They also have to fix the problems with threads that cause their web servers to slow down unacceptably. The talk of Avi leaving, and Mach leaving with him is interesting. Personally, I hope it happens. Avi was one of the developers of Mach, with him out of the way, the path is clear. For all we know, the decision was already made to leave Mach, and Avi left to enable that to happen without embarrassment to either him, or Apple.




    If all PowerMacs and xserves are shipped basically identical except for the CPU, it should helps things.
  • Reply 89 of 175
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by theapplegenius

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Conroe-2-4Ghz-10...QQcmdZViewItem



    There's one of those next-gen chips if anyone wants to try it.






    WTF? What motherboard would that be used with? Desktop motherboards for the Core Solo/Duo are only now starting to trickle out... And where did he get that Conroe? Stolen from Apple R&D?
  • Reply 90 of 175
    I guess you could use the BadAxe 975x or the P5WD2-E Premium from Asus. Those work.
  • Reply 91 of 175
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    I'm an AMD guy so all I know is socket 939. What are the socket names/numbers for the Core and Conroe and Woodcrest?



    Holy **** the Intel Core Duo boxed is cheaper than an AMD Athlon64 X2 (dual core) and benches slightly better.



    Damn... Intel is back with a vengeance this 2006. Resistance is futile. Hope AMD can hold the fort to some degree though.



    Once more motherboards come out for Core Duo it's use in desktops will probably give some solid competition to AMD's X2.



    A huge segment of the general PC market is still single core though. Joe and Jane Average don't need dual core machines



    Dual core will probably pick up though in the business IT environment though because of a lot of background processes running (antivirus, network backup and updates, etc.)



    I wonder what Intel's targets are for Core Duo in the desktop business IT market. I know it's going for Centrino Duo in the laptop market (then again I wonder about dual core for the average laptop user)
  • Reply 92 of 175
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Apple's iMac Core Duo is well-designed, ahead of the market, looks great, runs cool, has a great OS, even runs Windows, you can play Windows games on it. Pity lotsa people don't know about it "It's too expensive...I can get a Dell for $etc"
  • Reply 93 of 175
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sunilraman

    Apple's iMac Core Duo is well-designed, ahead of the market, looks great, runs cool, has a great OS, even runs Windows, you can play Windows games on it. Pity lotsa people don't know about it "It's too expensive...I can get a Dell for $etc"



    And it is then your job to remind them about the built-ins (monitor, iSight, wireless, speakers), not to mention the included software (which is actually useful, as opposed to the crap that usually comes on a new Windows box) like iPhoto, iMovie, iDVD, GarageBand, iWeb, iTunes, Mail, Preview, Safari, etc. ?



    All in all, way better deal than a Dell, any day?
  • Reply 94 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacRonin

    Mac OS X Server (10-client license) US$499



    Mac OS X Server (Unlimited client license) US$999



    There is absolutely ZERO way that Microsoft can touch that pricing structure?




    Well, they dropped the price even more since I last looked! Even better.
  • Reply 95 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sunilraman

    WTF? What motherboard would that be used with? Desktop motherboards for the Core Solo/Duo are only now starting to trickle out... And where did he get that Conroe? Stolen from Apple R&D?



    There are Conroe's out there. I know some people at a couple of companies who are working with them now. I would expect that Apple is playing with both Conroe and Woodcrest as well.
  • Reply 96 of 175
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,509member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by sunilraman

    I'm an AMD guy so all I know is socket 939. What are the socket names/numbers for the Core and Conroe and Woodcrest?



    Holy **** the Intel Core Duo boxed is cheaper than an AMD Athlon64 X2 (dual core) and benches slightly better.



    Damn... Intel is back with a vengeance this 2006. Resistance is futile. Hope AMD can hold the fort to some degree though.



    Once more motherboards come out for Core Duo it's use in desktops will probably give some solid competition to AMD's X2.



    A huge segment of the general PC market is still single core though. Joe and Jane Average don't need dual core machines



    Dual core will probably pick up though in the business IT environment though because of a lot of background processes running (antivirus, network backup and updates, etc.)



    I wonder what Intel's targets are for Core Duo in the desktop business IT market. I know it's going for Centrino Duo in the laptop market (then again I wonder about dual core for the average laptop user)




    There is al least one PC desktop board for the Yonah out there now. I read a review of one, but don't remember where now.



    The review was good, by the way. They thought that the chip, officially a laptop chip, as we all know, was more than suitable for a desktop.



    Sheesh. they didn't have to test a PC mobo to find that out! We knew it already.
  • Reply 97 of 175
    thereubsterthereubster Posts: 402member
    Conroes are definitely out there in significant numbers, check the Intel forum at xtremesystems.org if you want to see benchmarks. Interestingly, not a peep anywhere on the net about Woodcrest. Intel obviously have them locked down REAL tight.
  • Reply 98 of 175
    macroninmacronin Posts: 1,174member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Thereubster

    Conroes are definitely out there in significant numbers, check the Intel forum at xtremesystems.org if you want to see benchmarks. Interestingly, not a peep anywhere on the net about Woodcrest. Intel obviously have them locked down REAL tight.



    Probably because Apple has asked them to, and want to get 'first post' rank with releasing the new Mac Pro with two dual-core Woodcrest CPUs?



    And dual QuadroFXs in SLI mode?!



    ;^p
  • Reply 99 of 175
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by MacRonin

    Probably because Apple has asked them to, and want to get 'first post' rank with releasing the new Mac Pro with two dual-core Woodcrest CPUs?



    And dual QuadroFXs in SLI mode?!



    ;^p




    and starting at $9999....! w00t!
  • Reply 100 of 175
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    There is al least one PC desktop board for the Yonah out there now. I read a review of one, but don't remember where now.



    The review was good, by the way. They thought that the chip, officially a laptop chip, as we all know, was more than suitable for a desktop.



    Sheesh. they didn't have to test a PC mobo to find that out! We knew it already.






    here's the Asus one I read about recently for Core

    ?N4L-VM DH?



    http://www.hexus.net/content/item.php?item=4850

Sign In or Register to comment.