Apple's Mac Pro to sport twin engines

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  • Reply 41 of 215
    admactaniumadmactanium Posts: 812member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JeffDM

    You have that backwards. A good disc to disc copy program can start a write shortly after the read starts, saving the read time of the disc. With record to disc image then write from disc image, the whole disc has to be read before you can start writing a disc.



    Where recording to disc image saves time is when you are writing multiple copies of a DVD. Then having multiple writing drives would save time as well so long as there is software to do that.




    fair enough. i must not do those thing enough to make it worth the effort to put another internal drive in. i've used a firewire dvd burner and my internal at the same time and it works just fine. then again, i don't dupe discs very often. i burn them from images, but i don't do very high volume so i don't think i'd pay for an extra drive just to save a few minutes on the rare occassions where i need to make more than one copy of a disc.
  • Reply 42 of 215
    @homenow@homenow Posts: 998member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by mwswami

    Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.



    Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199

    Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699

    High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499



    The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.




    If that is the case then I hope for Apple's sake that they come out with a Mac line to complement the iMac and MacPro. Your price range amounts for another "Price Hike" for the PowerMac/MacPro line which has for most of it's life with PowerPC's hovered around $1599, with low end models making it as low as $1299 and topping out at $1999. Apple really does need a non-AIO model that sells for less than $2000 and preferably no higher than $1599. There are many reasons for this, though I admit fewer with the latest version of the 20" iMac. I fear that without a model like this Apple will find it harder to grow market share, and they risk slowing down the upgrade cycle in the graphics markets where large monitors are always needed but not always the fastest processor for all tasks. Then there is the "Switcher" market from gamers to "Geeks" who might be attracted to a Mac IF they had a more affordable tower.
  • Reply 43 of 215
    apparatusapparatus Posts: 78member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Archstudent

    yea I agree.. there should be a basic tower option which starts at the very basics but that can be customised on the apple store with the things that person wants to buy.. I don't need an inbuilt isight or any of that...



    something like the equivalent of the old 8600s would be sweet.. Just a simple, rugged box, but with more flexibilty and choice in terms of the parts that are going inside.




    Yeah that's what I'm talking about. It would be so sweet.
  • Reply 44 of 215
    thttht Posts: 3,977member
    I've been surprised that Apple is willing to use the top of the line Intel chips in their systems.



    MBP has 2 and 2.16. MB has 1.83 and 2. iMac has 1.83 and 2 GHz Core Duos. Even the Mac mini has Core Solo and Core Duos instead of Celeron M or Celerons.



    So I would wager that Apple will have 2x2.33 GHz, 2x2.67 GHz and 2x3.0 GHz Xeon powered Mac Pros. Perhaps the only drawback will be the lack of 2 PCIe x16 slots.
  • Reply 45 of 215
    tacojohntacojohn Posts: 980member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by futuretheory9

    Come on Adobe!! Not buying anything until I gets mys creative suites



    I use photoshop on a daily basis and it's not too shabby on my new macbook. I really only have edited web graphics so far though (nothing major)...



    Not my 300dpi 8' banners yet...
  • Reply 46 of 215
    tkntkn Posts: 224member
    The processor is unknown because Intel probably doesn't know yet. It tends to be a last minute thing of what is ready at the time.



    Hopefully smaller boards mean more room in the case for drives and internal expansions necessary for a pro mac and maybe two form factors with a smaller mid-tower.
  • Reply 47 of 215
    shanmugamshanmugam Posts: 1,200member
    i read somewhere

    5130, 5140, 5150, 5160 are xeon not woodcrest???
  • Reply 48 of 215
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shanmugam

    i read somewhere

    5130, 5140, 5150, 5160 are xeon not woodcrest???






    Incorrect.



    Xeon 5000 sequence is Dempsey last of the Netburst.



    Xeon 5100 sequence is Woodcrest.
  • Reply 49 of 215
    Quote:

    Originally posted by mwswami

    Given that even the entry level laptops are dual core, I believe that we will see an all Quad-core lineup for the Mac Pro - i.e. dual Woodcrests across the board.



    Entry: 2 x Xeon 5130 (2.0 GHz) $2199

    Mid: 2 x Xeon 5140 (2.33 GHz) $2699

    High: 2 x Xeon 5150 (2.67 GHz) $3499



    The 5160 will be available only as a BTO option (+ $500) on the High end. Note that the 5130, 5140, 5150, and 5150 are expected to be priced at $316, $455, $690, and $851 respectively.




    I think they can fit 2 x 2.0 Xeons for $2000. That's $650 for processors, $300 for graphics card, even if $700 for everything else, that's $350 profit, a margin of 15%, and even with $200 off on education sales, they still rake in $150 on each sale.



    Also, Dell and HP will have Conroes at 2.67 GHz in $1500 boxes. A Mac Pro can't have a Conroe unless it's an overclocked Extreme version (which is more expensive than 2 Woodcrests, I think, or close to it). 4 cores will be Apple's way of defining the Mac Pro. And the rest of the lines will be dual core.



    In January or so, the top of the line Mac Pro can go dual-quad core with the quad-core processor coming out after Woodcrest, but the low and mid end will be quad-core from this July to whenever Apple can fit a quad-core single chip in the iMac (obviously with speed bumps)



    (note that all of the preceding was educated guessing)
  • Reply 50 of 215
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Louzer

    Well, some might want to put a CD or CD-RW in one, so they can get a fast-access drive (your standard DVD-RW drives tend (or tended) to have slower mechanisms). Also, it allows you to keep reference CDs (hell, or game CDs) in the freakin' drive without having to swap out at times.



    Well, now, it doesn't say much about your argument when you start swearing (even with substitute swear words) to make your point. Reference CDs should be copied to hard drive for the fastest access anyway, which negates your fast-access argument. No CD drive can match a 7200rpm SATA drive for access time. And most of us aren't so caught up in games that we desperately need to start them up instantly. Wait, wasn't this an argument about "pros"? How much gaming do pros do? You're coming up with a lot of "this could be useful" scenarios, but nothing compelling.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by Louzer

    Why saddle users with a boatload of clutter on their desktop? This is one of my biggest complaint with my G5 tower. I've got three ugly firewire enclosures messily stacked on top of each other. Everyone talks about how nice and clean apples computers are, but then they force their users to add on all this extra crap that ruins the look.



    Maybe not all of us care about the "look." Maybe we just don't want something huge, heavy and unwieldy.



    Quote:

    Another example - USB ports. Most macs have 2 or 3. (2 if you have a wired keyboard). And on the tower, one's up front. So you're forced to buy a USB PCI card (if you have a tower) or an ubly USB hub just to plug in a couple of devices.



    Again, check my earlier posts and you'll see I've complained about the dearth of USB ports on Macs. They're cheap to add, take up little space and are useful for a great many people, unlike a second optical drive. I know I've got printer, camera, PDA, graphics tablet, keyboard, mouse, Shuttlepro and several other devices hooked up to mine. Other people won't need quite so many but certainly more than the 3 on the PowerMac and 4 on the Mini. (BTW, how is it that someone who supposedly knows so much about Apples doesn't know that USB keyboards usually include two USB ports, so plugging the mouse into one still leaves another available, for no net loss of ports?) I don't expect Apple to give us 20 or so just to suit me, but seeing as how some of the cheapest PC motherboards have 8, I wouldn't mind if they matched that.



    Quote:

    And if we go on this philosophy, Apple might as well get rid of the PCI slots, extra drive bays, and anything else internal, since, really, how many people actually use them? Apple should just make the new Tower the size of the mini, if you're going to base it on how many people will use it.



    In point of fact, you may notice that I did suggest getting rid of all but one PCI/PCIe slot (in addition to any that may be necessary for the graphics card). PCI slots really aren't that useful anymore, even for pros. If Apple adds enough USB ports, you won't need a USB card. Or you could always get a hub. Not the best solution, but it's out there for those who need it. What else would you need PCI for? Pro audio card? USB 2.0 versions exist. Video capture card? That's so 20th century. Either you use a USB or Firewire device that has plenty of bandwidth for capping broadcast video, or if you're shooting your own stuff on HD camcorders, the Firewire port is all you need to get the data in for editing.



    Quote:

    Am I the only person who puts their computer on the floor under their desk?



    You do know you're not supposed to do that? PCs shouldn't be placed on the floor because then you'll get all that wonderful dust sucked in by the fans, whereupon they'll build up on internal components and reduce heat dissipation. BTW, above, you gripe about "three ugly Firewire enclosures" on top of your G5. If it's all under your desk, why do you care how ugly they are?
  • Reply 51 of 215
    rolorolo Posts: 686member
    My guess would be the new Mac Pro uses Intel's Glidewell workstation platform and the Woodcrest chips. According to this article, Glidewell uses the Green Creek memory controller hub and PCI-E-only for graphics. I have no idea how many slots will be 16-lane or 8-lane. Don't confuse Bensley with Glidewell because they are not the same.



    Green Creek would use a 1333 MHz FSB for each processor. Glidewell is made for twin CPU sockets so if Apple wants to use one platform and processor type for the Mac Pro, all models would be twin duos. That means Woodcrest (Xeon 5100 series) across the board. I can't really see Apple using two entirely different platforms for the Mac Pro.



    A Quad 3 GHz system would be mighty fast and powerful. I'd hope for 4 drive bays using a pair of SATA-2 buses.



    Unlike the Quad G5, the 3 GHz Mac Pro won't need liquid cooling. Apple can save some money there and it's probably also cost effective for Intel to be designing the mobos. Let's hope the Mac Pro's pricing will be close to existing PM pricing but I suspect it'll be a bit more.
  • Reply 52 of 215
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    Well, now, it doesn't say much about your argument when you start swearing (even with substitute swear words) to make your point. Reference CDs should be copied to hard drive for the fastest access anyway, which negates your fast-access argument. No CD drive can match a 7200rpm SATA drive for access time. And most of us aren't so caught up in games that we desperately need to start them up instantly. Wait, wasn't this an argument about "pros"? How much gaming do pros do? You're coming up with a lot of "this could be useful" scenarios, but nothing compelling.



    I think the logic is that if you're copying a DVD, rather than waiting for the DVD to copy all the way to the Hard Disk, you can start writing while still reading, which saves some work. So while the Hard Drive method does work faster, the dual-DVD drive way does less work. That said, I also think it's pretty useless.



    I too want more USB ports. Headset, printer, iPod, and already I can't fit all of them on my iBook. I hope for 4-5, especially since they don't take up that much room, and there are a lot more USB peripherals than Firewire.



    I'd like (in terms of ports)

    4-5 USB ports

    1 FW 800

    2-3 FW 400

    2 x gigabit Ethernet
  • Reply 53 of 215
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    (BTW, how is it that someone who supposedly knows so much about Apples doesn't know that USB keyboards usually include two USB ports, so plugging the mouse into one still leaves another available, for no net loss of ports?)



    This assumes that a person likes the current Apple desktop keyboard, and as you say, the Bluetooth keyboard doesn't count. I don't like the key's feel on those keyboards.



    One thing left out of your argument for no card slots is that sometimes standards advance. A three year old consumer Mac wouldn't be able to take full advantage of a current iPod, but I can plug one card into my eight year old Xeon (which still sees daily use) and it's good to go.



    Sometimes, ports fail. My G5 ethernet jack died last week, if it weren't for a spare network card in a slot, I wouldn't be able to control when the unit can go to be repaired. Sure, the latest ones have dual ethernet but I'm not replacing computers at the drop of a hat.



    External devices add a lot of cable mess that could have been avoided with an internal device. For each device expected to operate externally, that means two cables, one cable for power, another for data, when some of those devices could be tucked away internally with no external cabling at all. I have thirteen cables connected to my G5 right now.
  • Reply 54 of 215
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    Personally, I really don't see the need. What are you going to do with two drives? Direct copy DVDs? Seems about the only thing you can do. You shouldn't burn two DVDs at once, although that may not be so much of an issue with today's fast SATA drives and buffer underrun protection. Besides, there's an easy and fairly inexpensive way to add a second optical drive for the few who need it. It's called a Firewire or USB 2.0 enclosure, which every pro "who has the money to buy these things" can easily afford several of if they desperately needed them. Why saddle the vast majority (admit it, people who don't use two opticals are the vast majority, be it 85% or 99%) with an empty 5.25" bay? It'd be sort of like when Apple gave every G3 and G4 a Zip drive bay. A few people put a Zip in there. A few more stuffed in a hard drive. But an awful lot left it empty, just a waste of space.



    It isn't just for optical drives. This gives the opportunity to add a hot removable HD rack for a 3.5" HD. Or a tape backup. for those who would want a Blu-Ray, and an HD DVD drive, it would also be useful.
  • Reply 55 of 215
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JeffDM

    You have that backwards. A good disc to disc copy program can start a write shortly after the read starts, saving the read time of the disc. With record to disc image then write from disc image, the whole disc has to be read before you can start writing a disc.



    Where recording to disc image saves time is when you are writing multiple copies of a DVD. Then having multiple writing drives would save time as well so long as there is software to do that.




    Yes. Dragon Burn does that.
  • Reply 56 of 215
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by a_greer

    Wow, with oil at $70/barrel, the gas cost must be a bitch



    What is the FRPG rating? (Frames Rendered Per Gallon)




    Good one!
  • Reply 57 of 215
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JeffDM

    This assumes that a person likes the current Apple desktop keyboard, and as you say, the Bluetooth keyboard doesn't count. I don't like the key's feel on those keyboards.



    There are plenty of other USB keyboards from other manufacturers. And pretty much every one I've seen has USB ports. The only recent, decent model I know of that doesn't have one is the Microsoft Natural Ergonomic 4000.



    Quote:

    One thing left out of your argument for no card slots is that sometimes standards advance. A three year old consumer Mac wouldn't be able to take full advantage of a current iPod, but I can plug one card into my eight year old Xeon (which still sees daily use) and it's good to go.



    Read it again. I did not argue for no slots. I argued for one free slot over and above what the video card uses, which for the vast majority of users, even pro users, is enough. Indeed, there are more than a few pro users who don't have any PCI slots and don't miss them. Those are the ones who own 17" Powerbook/Macbook Pros as their sole system.



    Quote:

    External devices add a lot of cable mess that could have been avoided with an internal device. For each device expected to operate externally, that means two cables, one cable for power, another for data, when some of those devices could be tucked away internally with no external cabling at all. I have thirteen cables connected to my G5 right now.



    OTOH, it can be fairly argued that external has its own advantages, which for some people quite possibly outweigh the clutter of a few wires. How about easy portability and installation on multiple machines? Removing, installing or transporting exposed, static-sensitive PCIe cards is not for the faint of heart and certainly can't be done while a machine is on or even sleeping. Anybody can hot-plug a USB or Firewire device.



    Quote:

    Originally posted by melgross

    It isn't just for optical drives. This gives the opportunity to add a hot removable HD rack for a 3.5" HD. Or a tape backup. for those who would want a Blu-Ray, and an HD DVD drive, it would also be useful.



    So none of this can be done with USB 2.0 or Firewire? A hot-swappable rack will still make the OS complain if you just pull it without ejecting/unmounting the volume first, same as with a USB/Firewire drive.
  • Reply 58 of 215
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,991member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    So none of this can be done with USB 2.0 or Firewire? A hot-swappable rack will still make the OS complain if you just pull it without ejecting/unmounting the volume first, same as with a USB/Firewire drive.



    That's not the point. you seem to think that the only way we should be allowed to add anything is externally. Not so.



    I have two machines on the floor, under my desk. And, no, they don't get full of dirt.



    I have connected to the dual G5, a 4 bay SCSI case with one CD-RW, and three hot drives, a 4 bay Firewire 400 case with one DVD-RW, and two hot drives, and one multifunction Firewire, USB 2, multi card slot reader, a 2 bay Firewire 800 case with two hot drives, a portable PATA to SATA case, and, finally, a 2 bay hot drive SATA case.



    I still would like a 5.25" bay available in the machine.



    If you think my system is nuts, I can direct you to guys with systems that make mine look simple! And it doesn't include the other devices connected.
  • Reply 59 of 215
    shanmugamshanmugam Posts: 1,200member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Incorrect.



    Xeon 5000 sequence is Dempsey last of the Netburst.



    Xeon 5100 sequence is Woodcrest.




    oops, i messed up 5100 with 5000 ...



    another 15 days to go!...



    GREATEST CPU design after Pentium 4 introduced in Mac Pro, GAME on!.
  • Reply 60 of 215
    gargar Posts: 1,201member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by shanmugam

    oops, i messed up 5100 with 5000 ...



    another 15 days to go!...



    GREATEST CPU design after Pentium 4 introduced in Mac Pro, GAME on!.




    What makes the Pentium 4 the greatest CPU design in your opinion?
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