Apple's Mac Pro to sport twin engines

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  • Reply 61 of 215
    molokomoloko Posts: 21member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JeffDM

    One thing left out of your argument for no card slots is that sometimes standards advance. A three year old consumer Mac wouldn't be able to take full advantage of a current iPod, but I can plug one card into my eight year old Xeon (which still sees daily use) and it's good to go.



    ...External devices add a lot of cable mess that could have been avoided with an internal device. For each device expected to operate externally, that means two cables, one cable for power, another for data, when some of those devices could be tucked away internally with no external cabling at all. I have thirteen cables connected to my G5 right now.




    absolut - on the Pro Video side @least (Apple's recently claimed 1/2 million editors using FCStudio) just by itself, there are a lot of users who can do with a decent amount of internal drive bays & expect expandibility/future-proofing via expansion slots (well, @least future-safety :P) - as well as the ability to upgrade to workstation-class graphics on the higher end of this group (gimme my dual 16x & SLI, dangit!)



    this is not just a "can do with" either: it's something we EXPECT from a $2000 ? $3000 dollar machine from Apple, especially when an equivalent PC case & mobo we know to be fairly inexpensive (relatively speaking)



    my 2004 G5 2 x 2 is an awesome machine (still!) ? but the lack of drive bays is an unfortunate joke ? adding a Sonnet 3-bay bracket as I need more space ? internal bay got filled with a 300GB Maxtor a week after buying, and I don't want even more externals spread out around here when they SHOULD be able to be INSIDE the beast!



    an *awesome* option (and a really attractive option to potential midrange Pro switchers - ie: the smaller film, video & design shops - who's biggest gripe about the Mac I hear tends to be the machine's short desk-life) would also be the same mobo across the line, with 2 SOCKETS & 1 entry-speed Woodcrest (option to add 2nd chip) on the low-end and 2 x the best Intel can supply at the high end ? processor upgradeability really enhances the value (ie: life) of the machine ? and saves on the development of multiple concurrent mobo designs as has been the case through the G5 era



    it really would be *insanely great*TM if for once & for all Apple settled the debate between:



    "i'm a pro user who needs a pro box (ie: 6 x 3.5" drive bays, 4 PCIe slots for expansion in addition DUAL 16x PCIe for SLI, the workx - for $2000 ? $4000 - depending on processor(s)"



    and:



    "i'm a devout fan/gamer/enty-level design&media maker who'd like a decent mac with a bit of expansion (ie: smaller case, an extra drive bay & video-on-a-card for well under $2000)"



    by actually having a Pro Mac that's well into workstation territory (this means the case as well ;-)) and the midrange headless Mac (a Mac midi? ) so many users/fans/potential switchers have been cryin out for...



    listen up, Apple! puhleeze?
  • Reply 62 of 215
    murkmurk Posts: 935member
    According to my "trusted" sources....



    Employing Intel's "Conroe" Core 2 Duo/Core 2 Extreme processors, there will be 2, 4, and 8-core models available with DDR2-800 memory, multiple PCI Express x16-SLI graphics cards... Four-way SLI with high-end nVIDIA and ATi graphics cards is going to bring the Mac gamer to the forefront of performance in a very big way.



    Link



    Oh, I can't go through with it. The link is to MOSR. Sorry, the made me post this.
  • Reply 63 of 215
    @homenow@homenow Posts: 998member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by murk

    According to my "trusted" sources....



    Employing Intel's "Conroe" Core 2 Duo/Core 2 Extreme processors, there will be 2, 4, and 8-core models available with DDR2-800 memory, multiple PCI Express x16-SLI graphics cards... Four-way SLI with high-end nVIDIA and ATi graphics cards is going to bring the Mac gamer to the forefront of performance in a very big way.



    Link



    Oh, I can't go through with it. The link is to MOSR. Sorry, the made me post this.




    That's using nVidia's new "Reality Engine" to boost Steve's RDF circutry added to each unit right?
  • Reply 64 of 215
    molokomoloko Posts: 21member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by murk

    According to my "trusted" sources....



    Employing Intel's "Conroe" Core 2 Duo/Core 2 Extreme processors, there will be 2, 4, and 8-core models available with DDR2-800 memory, multiple PCI Express x16-SLI graphics cards... Four-way SLI with high-end nVIDIA and ATi graphics cards is going to bring the Mac gamer to the forefront of performance in a very big way.



    Link



    Oh, I can't go through with it. The link is to MOSR. Sorry, the made me post this.




    arrh. the ecstacy. the agony. we can only dream on*

    (even if the multi-Conroe fantasy were possible )



    *think that's how the MOSR theme-tune goes....
  • Reply 65 of 215
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    Read it again. I did not argue for no slots. I argued for one free slot over and above what the video card uses, which for the vast majority of users, even pro users, is enough. Indeed, there are more than a few pro users who don't have any PCI slots and don't miss them. Those are the ones who own 17" Powerbook/Macbook Pros as their sole system.



    Say a pro wants to capture HD-SDI data and save it to Xserve RAID. Oops, one slot isn't enough.
  • Reply 66 of 215
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by JeffDM

    Say a pro wants to capture HD-SDI data and save it to Xserve RAID. Oops, one slot isn't enough.



    Come, now. You have a full broadcast suite with at least $15,000 of SDI and Fibre Channel cards alone (and probably several times that), not to mention an Xserve RAID, and they couldn't add another Mac just to handle the capture? Maybe every Mac Pro should have quad processors, as well, since a tiny segment of users need all that power. As somebody noted, Apple once didn't pigeonhole all "Pro" users into the "I need everything but the kitchen sink in my tower" camp. The Quad G5 motherboard is very different from the Dual G5 motherboard. If they can engineer both, they can engineer a smaller motherboard and case for non-video pros which doesn't have too many superfluous features that we're forced to pay for just because we need more power than an iMac provides.
  • Reply 67 of 215
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 32,977member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    Come, now. You have a full broadcast suite with at least $15,000 of SDI and Fibre Channel cards alone (and probably several times that), not to mention an Xserve RAID, and they couldn't add another Mac just to handle the capture? Maybe every Mac Pro should have quad processors, as well, since a tiny segment of users need all that power. As somebody noted, Apple once didn't pigeonhole all "Pro" users into the "I need everything but the kitchen sink in my tower" camp. The Quad G5 motherboard is very different from the Dual G5 motherboard. If they can engineer both, they can engineer a smaller motherboard and case for non-video pros which doesn't have too many superfluous features that we're forced to pay for just because we need more power than an iMac provides.



    I can't argue that. you are correct to a great extent.



    Biut there should be machines for both extremes. I wholeheartedly endorse a one slot machine. But I also would very much want one that is much more expandable. There are video solutions that fit within one machine. Not all production studios are big enough to afford that bank of equipment either. The independent person is beginning to do this work, but needs a less expensive solution than a fully equiped facility.
  • Reply 68 of 215
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Kolchak

    Come, now. You have a full broadcast suite with at least $15,000 of SDI and Fibre Channel cards alone (and probably several times that), not to mention an Xserve RAID, and they couldn't add another Mac just to handle the capture?



    How do you get the data from one machine to the next? I'm not sure dual gigE can handle HD-SDI, and why require adding a second machine when any reasonable observer would see that a single machine could do the same job better? Why make the pro product even less competitive than it already is?



    I really don't see why card slots are undesirable such that there is a merit in removing any the pro machine. Card slots aren't expensive, nor do they take excessive amounts of space. I don't see how offering fewer slots for a lesser Quad machine would cut size and a cut price. The current Quad is competing against the HP xw9300 and I'm not certain the G5 Quad is necessarily competitive against it other than it runs OS X and it looks nicer.
  • Reply 69 of 215
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,426member
    The other day someone was saying how the Mac Pro's won't have SLI or Crossfire or the like. This image from the latest new york conference that intel showed off conroe with proves that intel DOES have something like that:







    I guarantee apple will have some sort of dual pci-express x16 deal in their mac pros. As you can see it IS an intel motherboard (look at the intel stamp by the cpu).
  • Reply 70 of 215
    You are missing a bit of the equation here. The motherboard is the easy bit, it's getting decent drivers from ATI or NVidia for these solutions that'll be the sticker. I'm going to go out on a limb and guess no on this one, if only because of the huge cost/performance that really only the heavy gamers that don't so much use Macs anyway will go for.



    Will it work in BootCamp? Likely.
  • Reply 71 of 215
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,426member
    SLI wasn't created for games. Sure it benefits games but the main reason SLI was made was for workstations to do modeling quicker... ultimately real time rendering. When I think of dual pci-exp x16, I think of a nice semi-rendered model being worked with in maya and cinema. That is the whole point. There aren't many gamers out there that will go buy two quadros or two 7950's and stick them in a machine... that'd be 1k to 4k just in graphics cards.
  • Reply 72 of 215
    bregaladbregalad Posts: 816member
    The MacPro is aimed at "Pro" users so it needs to come stock with a "Pro" video card (not that stinking 6600 that can't handle Aperture) and room for an internal RAID 5 configuration.



    I akso think there's a enormous hole in Apple's pricing. There's a gap of $1100 between the top iMac and a PowerMac with a 20" screen. That hole is begging to be filled with something that will appeal to anyone who wants some expansion, but doesn't need that internal RAID 5, dual Ethernet, pair of 30" displays, etc.



    I think Apple needs to come out with a real media center computer to fit in between the iMac and MacPro. In other words bring back the pizza box or cube size comptuer. It would have a desktop processor (Conroe), four RAM slots, replaceable video card, 3.5" HD, full size optical drive and, to stop the whiners, one PCI-e slot.



    For me such a design would be the perfect home computer and perfect media center. The 3.5" HD and tray loading DVD-RW would be cheaper than those in the Mac Mini while offering improved performance. Having a replaceable video card and PCI-e slot would make this machine appeal to gamers and anyone else in the majority who don't buy a new Mac every 18 months.



    Price for this mythical perfect computer: US$1499. My credit card is waiting.
  • Reply 73 of 215
    hmurchisonhmurchison Posts: 12,341member
    Wouldn't you want a RAID 0 configuration for a workstation? Or at the least RAID 1 if you want redundancy. RAID 5 is simply going to slow you down because of the need to process parity read/writes.



    Better graphics are a must. Doesn't need to be 7950 GX2's or anything but something beefier than 6600. How about Nvidia 7000 series?
  • Reply 74 of 215
    emig647emig647 Posts: 2,426member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Better graphics are a must. Doesn't need to be 7950 GX2's or anything but something beefier than 6600. How about Nvidia 7000 series?



    Long as it's greater than 7600... just a beefed up 6600.
  • Reply 75 of 215
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,949member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bregalad

    I think Apple needs to come out with a real media center computer to fit in between the iMac and MacPro. In other words bring back the pizza box or cube size comptuer.



    If it's going to be a media center, it should be the same 17" wide form factor as most other home theater gear such as a cable box and reciever / amp. A cube won't work well, but a pizza box could work.
  • Reply 76 of 215
    Quote:

    Originally posted by hmurchison

    Better graphics are a must. Doesn't need to be 7950 GX2's or anything but something beefier than 6600. How about Nvidia 7000 series?



    I'm no expert on this but if you want to be able to use Blu-Ray and HD-DVD drives in the future you will need the Nvidia 700 series:



    Quote:

    Nvidia ready for HD decoding - Lionel -



    Source : http://www.nvidia.com

    NVidia unveiled their PureVideo HD technology. It consists in three main points:

    - the material acceleration of formats decoding that will be used with Blu-Ray and HD-DVD (H264, VC-1 and MPEG-2).

    - post-treatment of decoded videos in order to optimize their quality up to 1080p.

    - the HDCP support that seems to become a standard whether you like it or not.



    The two first points will be available with most of the Geforce 7xxx video cards. On the other hand, HDCP support will require buying new products the specific chips required for material authentification.

    In the PC world the first compatible video cards are arriving. But it's not enough. The screen must also have a HDCP protection, or it won't be able to display anything, or at best an altered signal.

    If the lastest 24 and 30" Dell displays are already compatible, it's not the case for Apple.

    In a near future, according to the majors will, you won't be able to use an unsupported display as a HD tv, even if you plug it to a more recent computer with a Blu-Ray or HD-DVD reader.



    Source: http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-06-10/#5596



    So I guess this also mean new Cinema Displays



    Oh and btw I don't know if you guys know this yet but Intel is working on water cooling very similar to the ones used in the G5's http://www.hardmac.com/news/2006-06-10/#5596
  • Reply 77 of 215
    smalmsmalm Posts: 669member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by emig647

    The other day someone was saying how the Mac Pro's won't have SLI or Crossfire or the like. This image from the latest new york conference that intel showed off conroe with proves that intel DOES have something like that:







    I guarantee apple will have some sort of dual pci-express x16 deal in their mac pros. As you can see it IS an intel motherboard (look at the intel stamp by the cpu).




    You are confusing the physical PCIe slot and the electrical PCIe lanes.

    Look at the G5. It has four x16 slots, one with 16 lanes, one with 8 lanes and two with 4 lanes.

    In (nearly all) SLI solutions the x16 slot with 16 lanes is divided into two x16 slots with 8 lanes each.

    This is what you see on that picture.
  • Reply 78 of 215
    thttht Posts: 3,952member
    Quote:

    Originally posted by Bregalad

    I akso think there's a enormous hole in Apple's pricing. There's a gap of $1100 between the top iMac and a PowerMac with a 20" screen. That hole is begging to be filled with something that will appeal to anyone who wants some expansion, but doesn't need that internal RAID 5, dual Ethernet, pair of 30" displays, etc.



    Many many many people have been wanting this for a very very long time. It's an old conversation:



    1 CPU

    2 memory slots

    1 PCIe x16 slot (AGP in older days)

    1 PCIe x2 slot (PCI in older days)

    1 5.25" external bay for optical

    1 3.5" internal bay for hard drive

    Usual accoutrements of ports

    $999-$1499 for standard config range



    So far nothing.



    Quote:

    I think Apple needs to come out with a real media center computer to fit in between the iMac and MacPro. In other words bring back the pizza box or cube size comptuer. It would have a desktop processor (Conroe), four RAM slots, replaceable video card, 3.5" HD, full size optical drive and, to stop the whiners, one PCI-e slot.



    I have no idea what a home theater PC or media center computer is, but if it's an entertainment electronic, it needs to be about $500 with DSL/Cable modems built-in, an HDMI/DVI port, a nifty remote control, audio ports, a gigantic hard drive (250 MB?), and easy access to an Apple movie store with lots of movies. DVD maybe.



    Everything else is a computer.
  • Reply 79 of 215
    sunilramansunilraman Posts: 8,133member
    Originally posted by futuretheory9

    I dare say that at those speeds in a dual dual-core configuration, adobe apps will run tolerably, if not just as fast as mid-range G5 under Rosetta. Well at least creative suite...After Effects is not happy in Rosetta at all. This is a very painful wait for all involved, really sucks if you need build a creative team with workstations right now, what the heck do you buy? Just can't justify buying 6 G5s now, but there's also work to be done.



    Apple would be doing it's creative pro customers a huge favor and probably make some money buy offering current G5 inventory on a 1 year lease or have a buy back promotion so that we can get some work done with a powerPC machine but not break the bank with a move to the clearly superior Intel machines in a year when Adobe has their products up to speed.






    This is so far in this forum the most sensible and intelligent response to the issue of Adobe CS2 use (and by proxy Macromedia Studio8 ) by professionals in this time of Intel transition.



    You have well encapsulated the challenges facing those who need to work with Mac Adobe/Macromedia in this time of transition. Potatochop and Dreamweaver not so much a challenge but Flash 8 and certainly AfterEffects in Rosetta might be too slow with Intel machines currently, and a Quad Mac Pro Intel may be too expensive to be worth it when one can get by with a dual G5 PowerMac.



    The 1 year G5 lease and buy back etc. ideas are absolutely brilliant. Perfect for riding out the transition until Universal Adobe/Macromedia CS3. I would say option to go 1.5 year lease may be needed just to play it safe. Remember that Adobe CS3 is a *major* undertaking as it has to incorporate a lot of Macromedia products in a sensible way. The integration may not be super tight but they still need time to figure out and deliver on the combined Adobe/Macromedia CS3 Suite: WinXP/2000 and Universal Intel/PPC.



    eBay is your best solution right now to get G5s and then sell them when you're ready to go Mac Pro Adobe CS3
  • Reply 80 of 215
    thttht Posts: 3,952member
    Apple will likely have an Apple-ized version of the typical Greencreek board for the Mac Pro. Ie, it won't have any legacy stuff, will have limited expansion, and will have some of Apple's unique features like Firewire 800. I wouldn't be surprised with a unique cooling features to keep the computer quiet.



    As I recall, the Greencreek northbridge supports either one PCIe x16 slot with x16 signaling or 2 PCIe x8 slots with x8 signaling (or 2 PCI x16 physical slots with x8 signaling). The southbridge has lots of x4 and x2 PCIe capability.



    ----



    Tyan Tempest i5000XT (S2696)







    Processor

    ? Dual LGA771 sockets

    ? Supports up to two Intel® Xeon®

    "Dempsey / Woodcrest" processors

    ? Dual-Core, 1333/1066/667MHz FSB; VRD 11.0



    Chipset

    ? Intel® "Greencreek" MCH + ESB2-M chipset

    ? Winbond 82627EHF Super I/O chip



    Memory

    ? Eight [8] 240-pin DDR2 FBDIMM sockets

    ? Four memory channels; supports ECC DIMMs

    ? Supports maximum of 32/16GB of DDR2-533/667



    Expansion Slots

    ? Two (2) PCI-E x16 slots (one x4 sig. from EBS2-M)

    ? One (1) PCI-E x8 slot (x4 sig. from EBS2-M)

    ? Two (2) PCI-X 133/100MHz slots from EBS2-M

    ? One (1) PCI 32-bit 33MHz slot

    ? Total of six expansion slots



    Integrated I/O

    ? One 9-pin 16550 UART serial port

    ? Six USB 2.0 ports (4 at rear; 2 via headers)

    ? PS/2 mouse and keyboard connectors

    ? Six standard SATA2 connectors

    ? Two RJ-45 10/100/1000 LAN ports

    ? One IDE and one floppy ports

    ? Eight SAS ports



    System Management

    ? SMSC EMC 6W201 Hardware Monitor

    ? CPU thermal & voltage monitor support

    ? Five (5) fan headers (4-pin configuration)



    Integrated Audio Controller

    ? HDA link; SPDIF in/out port in rear

    ? RealTek ALC880 controller (High-Def. Audio)

    ? Stacked Mic-in/Line-in/Line-out rear ports

    ? Front panel audio header

    ? CD-in, Aux-in headers (4-pin configuration)

    \t

    Integrated SATA Controller

    ? Six (6) SATA 2.0 ports running at 3.0Gb/s

    ? RAID 0, 1, and 10 supported



    Integrated SAS Controller

    ? LSI 1068E SAS controller with PCI-E x4 interface

    ? Eight SAS ports



    Integrated FireWire (1394a) Controller

    ? TI TSB43AB22 1394a controller

    ? 1394a channel for rear (connector)

    ? 1394a channel for front (header)



    Integrated LAN Controllers

    ? Intel® Gigabit from ESB2 (w/ dual pors "Gilgal")

    - ASF 2.0; two RJ-45 ports with LED



    BIOS

    ? Phoenix BIOS® on 8Mbit Flash ROM

    ? Supports APM 1.2, ACPI 2.0

    ? Serial Console Redirect

    ? PXE via Ethernet, USB device boot

    ? PnP, DMI 2.0, WfM 2.0 Power Management

    ? User-configurable H/W monitoring

    ? Auto-configuration of hard disk types

    ? Multiple boot options

    ? 48-bit LBA support



    Form Factor

    ? SSI / Extened ATX footprint (12" x 13")



    Power

    ? EPS12V / SSI (24 + 8 + 4 pin) power connectors



    Regulatory

    ? FCC Class B (Declaration of Conformity)

    ? European Community CE (DoC); BSMI
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