just to put it on context, by 2005 estimates, the general cost of living in the US is about 3.98 times higher than in china, so, in PPP (price purchasing parity) terms, that is equivalent to a salary of 398 dollars a month in the US.
(working 15 hours a day in china is the same as working 15 hours a day in the US, is not that they have superpowers and don't need to rest)
hooray for apple for hiring people who allow us to have (relatively) cheap iPods!
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
But it does mean higher profits, which translates into higher stock prices for its investors. And I don't see too many people on these boards complaining about that (even if they are down a bit from their recent highs).
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
Apple Computer's iconic digital music players are built primarily by female works who sometimes earn as little as $50 per week, according to an article in the print edition of Mail on Sunday.
----> A typical factory worker's salary is about $250/month according to the factories I visited in China 1 month ago. So there's nothing new here.
The report, dubbed "iPod City," offers a rare glimpse inside Apple's massive iPod manufacturing facilities, which are owned by Foxconn and situated in China.
By itself, Foxconn's Longhua facility is reported to house over 200,000 workers -- or a population larger the British city of Newcastle. Its exterior gates flaunt billboards encouraging anyone over the age of 16 to apply for a job.
----> This is good work for local people, as "distasteful" as it may sound to us lilywhite Americans.
Inside Longhua, workers labor a 15-hour day building iPods, for which they usually earn about $50 per month.
----> $50/month ---This contradicts the earlier part of this report, and sounds too low. Probably the first figure is correct.
When they're not on the assembly lines, they live in secluded dormitories that each house 100 people and prohibit visitors from the outside world. The workers are allowed "a few possessions" and a "bucket to wash their clothes."
----> Most factory workers live multiple people to a room---up to 6 or 8 in a room at the places I visited---they don't mention that workers get free food and housing.
"We have to work too hard and I am always tired. It's like being in the army," Zang Lan, one of the workers at Longhua, told the Mail. "They make us stand still for hours. If we move we are punished by being made to stand still for longer. The boys are made to do pushups."
----> Sounds like they took one whiner out of...what...200,000(!)...to make it sound worse than it is...
According to the report, the iPod nano is made in a five-story factory called "E3" that is secured by armed police officers. The super-slim digital music player is said to include over 400 parts which arrive from component manufacturers all over the world.
Another factory in Suzhou, Shanghai, manufacturers iPod shuffles and is completely surrounded by barbed wire. At this facility, 50,000 workers are housed outside the plant and earn about $99 per month. However, they must pay out of pocket for their accommodations and food, "which takes up half their salaries."
----> I didn't go to Suzhou, but Guangdong is pretty squalid in it's conditions...very dirty.
One security guard told the Mail that the iPod shuffle production lines are staffed by women workers because "they are more honest than male workers."
According to the report, Apple is just one of thousands of companies that now use Chinese facilities to manufacture its products. China's low wages, long hours and industrial secrecy, make the country attractive to business, especially as increased competition and consumer expectations force companies to deliver products at lower prices. [ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
The general case is that greater profits lead to higher stock prices (over time). But thanks for the lesson in stock analysis.
Quote:
Originally posted by scavanger
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
However likely this is, it's not an accusation to make without first hand knowledge. Especially since the source was so lax in their reporting. I'm all for lobbying China institues wage labour institutions that mandate maximum work days, and workplace conditions, the minimum wage bit while useless in our country, would probably help at least until jobs keep pace with workers.
I do have first-hand reporting. I went to about 6 different factories in China and they run the gamut. Some are very advanced and would compare with the top factories in the US, and some are downright primitive, where more hands on deck substitute for adequate machinery that could accomplish the same thing quicker, but it's more expensive. But c'mon... slave labor?... I didn't see anything like that. All factories have barbed wire fences and an armed guard, the people would walk off with every damn thing that isn't nailed down otherwise. \
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
So, you're of the opinion that averagely-paid US American workers would be able to manufacture an iPod at no additional cost?
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
The AVERAGE income per HOUSEHOLD in China is $1,100.00 PER YEAR! This is very hard for Americans to understand, as most of you could spend that in your car in a couple of months. Sad, but true. I think that writing an article that does nothing but strike an emotional response, that really doesn't help the China economy, but rather links the ipod as a main cause, makes people mad at Apple. This in turn could reduce the amount of ipods sold, and in turn reduces that now $2600 per year for one individual in the household. and the room and board, to NOTHING!
I am so sorry that they are not as Fat, Soft and Spoiled as we have become, but a poor written article like this one, can only make matters worse. Right now this employment is 2.2x the Household average with room and board. No matter how you slice it, it sucks, but it is an upward trend that must continue.
Quite likely that Dell and HP are using facilities of similar if not identical companies to manufacture their products, it's just Apple that is being singled out here. Apple's just getting the press because of the high profile of the iPod product.
It's also worth noting that China's economy is not nearly so homogenous as ours is; A huge percentage of the population are essentially non wage earning farmers, contrasting some of their major cities which are urban examples of western capitalism. This large disparity makes things like "average wages" a bit more vague; is it the average wage of the population as a whole, or the wage of the average laborer? Likely those two figures are fairly different.
I think your numbers may be dated (or otherwise misrepresentative).
As this article illustrates, the per-capita income for the poorest 20 per cent was about US$890 (annually).
You are so right. I just checked. My figures are from two years ago. The total average is $1,100 (US). the lower 20 percent stands at $890. Thanks for pointing that out. But all the same, the point of my reply stands.
Even Bush asked for money from Japan after 9-11 and then where was the support for Japan ? Most American companies now send orders direct to China and side step Japan.
I agree the US exploits Japan.. but on the other hand, Japan makes way better cars.
It somehow evens out in the end.
After reading a previous post, I'm personally boycotting Apple for NOT opening up one of these factories in Djibouti.
But, in the end, this can't be enslavement because it's voluntary. These people can either work here or work at some place even crappier, or not work at all out of protest of not making $6/hr like they would in America. Any one of these options would shut down this factory immediately, and it would move to Djibouti.
The article mentioned by this topic was heavily slanted using language. "<i>Only</i> $X/wk", "<i>Forced</i> to stand."
You journalism majors should take note: this is how you're going to convince the world to destroy itself in the future!
Oh, BTW, I'm working at a job where I would be formally disciplined if I sat down while not on break--warehouse worker for a small business. I just started back there today after leaving to go to school for a few months. It doesn't pay very much but I'm working there because nobody else would hire me for such weird hours and for short a time. I can't spend more than $5/day on food with my budget, and in America, that's nothin.
Where's my offensive 12 year-old to fend off the capitalists?
just to put it on context, by 2005 estimates, the general cost of living in the US is about 3.98 times higher than in china, so, in PPP (price purchasing parity) terms, that is equivalent to a salary of 398 dollars a month in the US.
(working 15 hours a day in china is the same as working 15 hours a day in the US, is not that they have superpowers and don't need to rest)
Yeah, forgetting the fact that China is really composed of 2 different cultures: those living in cities, and those not living in cities.
In cities in china, the cost of living is probably 50 times higher than those living in rural areas.
They have little specs of 3rd world all over, and that's where the cost of living is insanely low.
Therefore, that cost of living figure is officially moot.
The discrepency in the economy is so wacky, the PRC government actually actively tries to keep rural citizenry from entering the city, especially vendors. It doesn't matter what they're selling, vendors carrying a metric ton of absolutely anything in a caravan (not the car, silly) can offload everything in a few hours, and undercut absolutely any local vendor.
It works really well for china. Now they have the modern city culture which does all the modern stuff, and the factory workers who are living better than they were, but far below what the city folk are used to. It's like a country with a US and a Mexico built write in, only they have the authoritarianism in place to keep the nation divided.
I'd also like to add that I read an article about illegal immigrants from North Korea flocking to china to get a better life. It's not very successful, most of the time, because North Koreans are much shorter than chinese (on average, due to the government trading food for weapons) and speak a different language.
I think the reason Korean writing looks so crazy was actually a plot by the chinese to make everyone else's writing look crazy to koreans.. but I'm crazy, so what do I know... or do I..
Communism is anarchic? Lol. So who's going to be the one to manage and prioritize the employment of all that property after its private ownership is abolished? And how are you going to keep all the drones shuffling from their state provided housing to their state provided jobs and back, all working towards the common utopian goal?
Apparently, the "genius" Marx didn't understand the law of unintended consequences. Or maybe he knew all along that his communism was totalitarian by its very nature.
You are making the usual error of mistaking the communist party with the state government.
The Communist party may control the state, but the state isn't Communist. There has never been a Communist state. Those states have been socialist. Chucker is correct. In the Communist system, the state withers away, because as people learn and believe the Communist ideal, the state no longer has a function.
In reality, Kruschov (Russian spelling) was correct when he said that "No one is a born Communist". And therin lies the problem. People have to be forced to live under a socialist system, ruled by those in the Communist party. We know what that leads to.
Comments
(working 15 hours a day in china is the same as working 15 hours a day in the US, is not that they have superpowers and don't need to rest)
Originally posted by scavanger
Maybe with Walmart, but not so much with Apple.
Wrong. Macs were a lot more expensive when they were still manufactured in Cork (and other places).
Originally posted by area51boy2000
hooray for apple for hiring people who allow us to have (relatively) cheap iPods!
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
Originally posted by Takeo
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
I'm afraid that you are incorrect sir.
Originally posted by schmidm77
But it does mean higher profits, which translates into higher stock prices for its investors. And I don't see too many people on these boards complaining about that (even if they are down a bit from their recent highs).
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
Originally posted by AppleInsider
Apple Computer's iconic digital music players are built primarily by female works who sometimes earn as little as $50 per week, according to an article in the print edition of Mail on Sunday.
----> A typical factory worker's salary is about $250/month according to the factories I visited in China 1 month ago. So there's nothing new here.
The report, dubbed "iPod City," offers a rare glimpse inside Apple's massive iPod manufacturing facilities, which are owned by Foxconn and situated in China.
By itself, Foxconn's Longhua facility is reported to house over 200,000 workers -- or a population larger the British city of Newcastle. Its exterior gates flaunt billboards encouraging anyone over the age of 16 to apply for a job.
----> This is good work for local people, as "distasteful" as it may sound to us lilywhite Americans.
Inside Longhua, workers labor a 15-hour day building iPods, for which they usually earn about $50 per month.
----> $50/month ---This contradicts the earlier part of this report, and sounds too low. Probably the first figure is correct.
When they're not on the assembly lines, they live in secluded dormitories that each house 100 people and prohibit visitors from the outside world. The workers are allowed "a few possessions" and a "bucket to wash their clothes."
----> Most factory workers live multiple people to a room---up to 6 or 8 in a room at the places I visited---they don't mention that workers get free food and housing.
"We have to work too hard and I am always tired. It's like being in the army," Zang Lan, one of the workers at Longhua, told the Mail. "They make us stand still for hours. If we move we are punished by being made to stand still for longer. The boys are made to do pushups."
----> Sounds like they took one whiner out of...what...200,000(!)...to make it sound worse than it is...
According to the report, the iPod nano is made in a five-story factory called "E3" that is secured by armed police officers. The super-slim digital music player is said to include over 400 parts which arrive from component manufacturers all over the world.
Another factory in Suzhou, Shanghai, manufacturers iPod shuffles and is completely surrounded by barbed wire. At this facility, 50,000 workers are housed outside the plant and earn about $99 per month. However, they must pay out of pocket for their accommodations and food, "which takes up half their salaries."
----> I didn't go to Suzhou, but Guangdong is pretty squalid in it's conditions...very dirty.
One security guard told the Mail that the iPod shuffle production lines are staffed by women workers because "they are more honest than male workers."
According to the report, Apple is just one of thousands of companies that now use Chinese facilities to manufacture its products. China's low wages, long hours and industrial secrecy, make the country attractive to business, especially as increased competition and consumer expectations force companies to deliver products at lower prices.
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
Originally posted by scavanger
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
The general case is that greater profits lead to higher stock prices (over time). But thanks for the lesson in stock analysis.
Originally posted by scavanger
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
Regarding what specifically?
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
I hope I haven't upset a libertarian socialist ... whenever I open my mouth about globalisation I seem to do that.
You also seem extremely uninformed. Libertarians are nowhere NEAR socialists.
www.lp.org
Originally posted by ChevalierMalFet
However likely this is, it's not an accusation to make without first hand knowledge. Especially since the source was so lax in their reporting. I'm all for lobbying China institues wage labour institutions that mandate maximum work days, and workplace conditions, the minimum wage bit while useless in our country, would probably help at least until jobs keep pace with workers.
I do have first-hand reporting. I went to about 6 different factories in China and they run the gamut. Some are very advanced and would compare with the top factories in the US, and some are downright primitive, where more hands on deck substitute for adequate machinery that could accomplish the same thing quicker, but it's more expensive. But c'mon... slave labor?... I didn't see anything like that. All factories have barbed wire fences and an armed guard, the people would walk off with every damn thing that isn't nailed down otherwise.
Originally posted by Takeo
You see... this is the mistake everyone makes. The money all these thousands of companies save by using sweatshop labor does NOT get passed on to the consumer. The very thought is laughable. The money they save goes to line their pockets. DUH!
So, you're of the opinion that averagely-paid US American workers would be able to manufacture an iPod at no additional cost?
Talk about delusional.
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
You also seem extremely uninformed. Libertarians are nowhere NEAR socialists.
www.lp.org
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
I am so sorry that they are not as Fat, Soft and Spoiled as we have become, but a poor written article like this one, can only make matters worse. Right now this employment is 2.2x the Household average with room and board. No matter how you slice it, it sucks, but it is an upward trend that must continue.
Originally posted by ReCompile
The AVERAGE income per HOUSEHOLD in China is $225.00 PER YEAR!
I think your numbers may be dated (or otherwise misrepresentative).
As this article illustrates, the per-capita income for the poorest 20 per cent was about US$890 (annually).
It's also worth noting that China's economy is not nearly so homogenous as ours is; A huge percentage of the population are essentially non wage earning farmers, contrasting some of their major cities which are urban examples of western capitalism. This large disparity makes things like "average wages" a bit more vague; is it the average wage of the population as a whole, or the wage of the average laborer? Likely those two figures are fairly different.
Originally posted by Chris Cuilla
I think your numbers may be dated (or otherwise misrepresentative).
As this article illustrates, the per-capita income for the poorest 20 per cent was about US$890 (annually).
You are so right. I just checked. My figures are from two years ago. The total average is $1,100 (US). the lower 20 percent stands at $890. Thanks for pointing that out. But all the same, the point of my reply stands.
Originally posted by miquet
Even Bush asked for money from Japan after 9-11 and then where was the support for Japan ? Most American companies now send orders direct to China and side step Japan.
I agree the US exploits Japan.. but on the other hand, Japan makes way better cars.
It somehow evens out in the end.
After reading a previous post, I'm personally boycotting Apple for NOT opening up one of these factories in Djibouti.
But, in the end, this can't be enslavement because it's voluntary. These people can either work here or work at some place even crappier, or not work at all out of protest of not making $6/hr like they would in America. Any one of these options would shut down this factory immediately, and it would move to Djibouti.
The article mentioned by this topic was heavily slanted using language. "<i>Only</i> $X/wk", "<i>Forced</i> to stand."
You journalism majors should take note: this is how you're going to convince the world to destroy itself in the future!
Oh, BTW, I'm working at a job where I would be formally disciplined if I sat down while not on break--warehouse worker for a small business. I just started back there today after leaving to go to school for a few months. It doesn't pay very much but I'm working there because nobody else would hire me for such weird hours and for short a time. I can't spend more than $5/day on food with my budget, and in America, that's nothin.
Where's my offensive 12 year-old to fend off the capitalists?
Originally posted by benjags
just to put it on context, by 2005 estimates, the general cost of living in the US is about 3.98 times higher than in china, so, in PPP (price purchasing parity) terms, that is equivalent to a salary of 398 dollars a month in the US.
(working 15 hours a day in china is the same as working 15 hours a day in the US, is not that they have superpowers and don't need to rest)
Yeah, forgetting the fact that China is really composed of 2 different cultures: those living in cities, and those not living in cities.
In cities in china, the cost of living is probably 50 times higher than those living in rural areas.
They have little specs of 3rd world all over, and that's where the cost of living is insanely low.
Therefore, that cost of living figure is officially moot.
The discrepency in the economy is so wacky, the PRC government actually actively tries to keep rural citizenry from entering the city, especially vendors. It doesn't matter what they're selling, vendors carrying a metric ton of absolutely anything in a caravan (not the car, silly) can offload everything in a few hours, and undercut absolutely any local vendor.
It works really well for china. Now they have the modern city culture which does all the modern stuff, and the factory workers who are living better than they were, but far below what the city folk are used to. It's like a country with a US and a Mexico built write in, only they have the authoritarianism in place to keep the nation divided.
I'd also like to add that I read an article about illegal immigrants from North Korea flocking to china to get a better life. It's not very successful, most of the time, because North Koreans are much shorter than chinese (on average, due to the government trading food for weapons) and speak a different language.
I think the reason Korean writing looks so crazy was actually a plot by the chinese to make everyone else's writing look crazy to koreans.. but I'm crazy, so what do I know... or do I..
Originally posted by schmidm77
Communism is anarchic? Lol. So who's going to be the one to manage and prioritize the employment of all that property after its private ownership is abolished? And how are you going to keep all the drones shuffling from their state provided housing to their state provided jobs and back, all working towards the common utopian goal?
Apparently, the "genius" Marx didn't understand the law of unintended consequences. Or maybe he knew all along that his communism was totalitarian by its very nature.
You are making the usual error of mistaking the communist party with the state government.
The Communist party may control the state, but the state isn't Communist. There has never been a Communist state. Those states have been socialist. Chucker is correct. In the Communist system, the state withers away, because as people learn and believe the Communist ideal, the state no longer has a function.
In reality, Kruschov (Russian spelling) was correct when he said that "No one is a born Communist". And therin lies the problem. People have to be forced to live under a socialist system, ruled by those in the Communist party. We know what that leads to.