You have GOT to be kidding. Slave labor conditions and you justify it as some necessary step on the glorious road to capitalistic paradise? You wouldn't subject yourself or a family member to those conditions for five minutes, but you'll sit there in your comfortable middle-class existance and claim this is actually good for people? You should be deeply, deeply ashamed. Your comments are some of the most disgusting I have ever seen on the Internet, and that's really saying something.
Here's a quick history lesson to augment your Alabama public school system education. It only took a thousand years in the west for the free market to generate a minumum wage and workers' rights. Due to nothing but blind luck, you now sit on your ass in Starbucks the beneficiary of a millenium of slave and child labor, which of course gives you the moral highground to tell those ingrate dollar a day workers how good they got it.
What you are saying isn't totally correct, and the part that is, about the time it took for developed countries to get where we are, only illustrates how difficult it all is.
If you read the Times or the WSJ, you will see that companies in China are already having to give workers higher salaries, better working conditions, etc. The complaint there is that as conditions in the countryside have been improving, the factories are having a labor shortage! Hard to believe, but true.
Others there have complained that China is already losing its status as the lowest cost producer to Vietnam, and other countries.
So, the cycle continues. I'm not sure what you would suggest as a viable solution. There isn't enough money in the world to pay Chinese, Indian, and other low wage earners competitive wages, working conditions, and benefits at this time. That will take generations. I remember when the Japanese were earning much less than we were. Not any more. The same thing has been happening in S Korea, and Taiwan.
It's sad to see this, but it's been happening for a very long time. Nothing new.
Look at what happened in E Germany when the reunification occured. Despite W Germany pouring a $100 billion a year into the east, the living wage, unemployment, and living conditions there have remained well behind the west. And with that trillion dollars, a mere 16 million people couldn't be dragged into equality. What do you think it would take to drag the 95 times larger Chinese population into rough equality with the developed nations? India? Indonesia? Etc.?
My theory has been that it will take over 50 years. But it will happen. Then, most of the world will be on a roughly even footing, except for Africa. That will take even longer.
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
Actually, the first one making an assertion is responsible for providing the proof.
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
No. look up the terms. A libertarian is, if anything, the exact opposite of a socialist. The libertarian believes that one shouldn't pay taxes of any kind, except perhaps for the defense of the country. The government should make no laws constraining business in any way, and that we, as individuals, should be allowed to do just about anything we wish.
You are confusing libertarian with liberal. A libertarian is to the right of George (gotta love him!) Bush. A liberal is to the left of Bill Clinton.
I agree the US exploits Japan.. but on the other hand, Japan makes way better cars.
It somehow evens out in the end.
After reading a previous post, I'm personally boycotting Apple for NOT opening up one of these factories in Djibouti.
But, in the end, this can't be enslavement because it's voluntary. These people can either work here or work at some place even crappier, or not work at all out of protest of not making $6/hr like they would in America. Any one of these options would shut down this factory immediately, and it would move to Djibouti.
The article mentioned by this topic was heavily slanted using language. "<i>Only</i> $X/wk", "<i>Forced</i> to stand."
You journalism majors should take note: this is how you're going to convince the world to destroy itself in the future!
Oh, BTW, I'm working at a job where I would be formally disciplined if I sat down while not on break--warehouse worker for a small business. I just started back there today after leaving to go to school for a few months. It doesn't pay very much but I'm working there because nobody else would hire me for such weird hours and for short a time. I can't spend more than $5/day on food with my budget, and in America, that's nothin.
Where's my offensive 12 year-old to fend off the capitalists?
Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.
just becuase we all suffered a hundred years ago, doesnt mean that others have to suffer now, or are you into some kind of 'penalty' for industrialisation?. clearly one would have hoped that civilisation would have advanced to the extent that even though people work in factories they should be treated better than the 19th century. also the issue isnt just about wages. its about issues such as forced overtime, unfair dismissials, a lack of any system to check that there are any under age workers. ...
It's kind of like teenagers going through puberty. It just has to happen for us to grow up.
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
Wow. What part of the world is that? Libertarians are free marketeers. That's not socialism. There are some anarchist libertarians, but I would hazard a guess that most are socially liberal, but personally conservative.
Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.
yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.
It's so sad to see a bunch of selfish mental midgets trying to justify a Chinese woman working 15 hours a day for 40 bucks a week, just so they can feel good about themselves and not try and do anything to stop it.
yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.
Despite what you think, we're still much better than many other places. We actually allow most foreign companies buy up American firms even though our companies can't do so in their countries. NAFTA has hurt our workers more than our partners, and we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.
We certainly aren't perfect. I don't agree with many of the farm subsidies, but I can understand the defense of what is left of the steel industry, considering how important it is for national security.
But, some countries have very strong protectionist feelings. If we matched them piece by piece, there would be little international trade at all.
we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.
Master of the sweeping statement.
I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.
I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.
I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.
The UL standards spec the electrical characteristics of a device. The physical characteristics are left to other standards bodies.
The DIN standards characterize both. In the US it is legal to utilize either standard for imported equipment. We had imported equipment from Europe that used DIN electricals.
But, in Europe, only DIN standard electricals are allowed. American equipment won't physically fit the DIN standard. Parts have to be DIN certified. It cost much more for an American company to do that. Also, DIN standard parts, such as contactors are spec'd much closer to the size. There is very little overload capacity built-in. American parts are spect'd so that there is more overload capacity. This leads to bigger parts that don't fit the DIN rails.
So, European equipment sold here is built in Europe with European parts, while American equipment for export to Europe must be fitted with European parts assembled in Europe because the unit must be inspected both before and after assembly. So, the parts must be bought there. Not enough equipment is sold there for American manufacturers to make a lot of DIN spec parts, and they still must be assembled there.
I'm refering to the photo lab equipment I bought for my lab.
I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.
To be more precise, the Germans have the DIN standard, which has traditionally been the strictest. Britain has the British Standard or BS Kitemark. I'm sure other European countries have their own also. These national standards however are gradually being superseded by European Community normalised standards in order that there's one standard Europe wide. That's so that there's a single market and each country can compete fairly with each other without barriers. As you can imagine, it takes a while for everyone to agree on them. Standards in Greece aren't as strict as Germany.
If you look on the back of your Mac you'll see a 'CE' mark indicating it conforms to European normalised standards. These CE standards generally are a dumbing down so that poorer nations don't have to meet Germany, Britain or France's higher standards.
Your suggestion that Europe produces standards in order to prevent competition is way off although I can understand why meeting DIN standards might be seen as such.
European agricultural standards are always fun ones for us Brits though. At one point Europe produced a standard for bananas that wasn't curvy. This seems to have been because Britain buys most of it's bananas from (British) Commonwealth countries where they're curvy. The French didn't like that. Neither did the USA. Funnily enough, the Daily Mail didn't like that either.
$100 a month is not a fantastic wage in a developing country. It is A wage, which is more than a lot have. But an internationally responsible corporation would not pay such a scant wage and subject people to 15-hour per day workdays. Period.
As a related aside, I live in a country where the average wage is 200 Euro / Month with 40% unemployment. A family of four with this can afford a one-room apartment, a loaf of bread per day, veggies and fresh stuff, and maybe eat a nice meal with meat once per week. The family has almost no extra to make any sort of safety net, so they are 100% dependent on that job, and if that job goes away, the living conditions deteriorate rapidly. And because employment prospects are dim, the worker earning the salary will do practically anything to keep the job, whether it's pushups or 15-hour days or a paycut. The worker has no power whatsoever.
And this is in a country with a reasonable standard-of-living, somewhere like China this would be magnified 10x. I'm shocked at the number of people calling this a 'good thing for the Chinese.'
Comments
Originally posted by scavanger
Shame that all the money they save on labor doesn't translate into lower prices for the products.
Why do you think they are there in the first place? Competition on prices.
Originally posted by Ensign Pulver
Please, please, please go fuck yourself.
You have GOT to be kidding. Slave labor conditions and you justify it as some necessary step on the glorious road to capitalistic paradise? You wouldn't subject yourself or a family member to those conditions for five minutes, but you'll sit there in your comfortable middle-class existance and claim this is actually good for people? You should be deeply, deeply ashamed. Your comments are some of the most disgusting I have ever seen on the Internet, and that's really saying something.
Here's a quick history lesson to augment your Alabama public school system education. It only took a thousand years in the west for the free market to generate a minumum wage and workers' rights. Due to nothing but blind luck, you now sit on your ass in Starbucks the beneficiary of a millenium of slave and child labor, which of course gives you the moral highground to tell those ingrate dollar a day workers how good they got it.
What you are saying isn't totally correct, and the part that is, about the time it took for developed countries to get where we are, only illustrates how difficult it all is.
If you read the Times or the WSJ, you will see that companies in China are already having to give workers higher salaries, better working conditions, etc. The complaint there is that as conditions in the countryside have been improving, the factories are having a labor shortage! Hard to believe, but true.
Others there have complained that China is already losing its status as the lowest cost producer to Vietnam, and other countries.
So, the cycle continues. I'm not sure what you would suggest as a viable solution. There isn't enough money in the world to pay Chinese, Indian, and other low wage earners competitive wages, working conditions, and benefits at this time. That will take generations. I remember when the Japanese were earning much less than we were. Not any more. The same thing has been happening in S Korea, and Taiwan.
It's sad to see this, but it's been happening for a very long time. Nothing new.
Look at what happened in E Germany when the reunification occured. Despite W Germany pouring a $100 billion a year into the east, the living wage, unemployment, and living conditions there have remained well behind the west. And with that trillion dollars, a mere 16 million people couldn't be dragged into equality. What do you think it would take to drag the 95 times larger Chinese population into rough equality with the developed nations? India? Indonesia? Etc.?
My theory has been that it will take over 50 years. But it will happen. Then, most of the world will be on a roughly even footing, except for Africa. That will take even longer.
Originally posted by scavanger
Maybe with Walmart, but not so much with Apple.
The Apple part of your assertion is completely unsupported. You apparently don't read much financial information.
Originally posted by scavanger
That is not always the case. Great example was the Tech Bubble in late 90s, almost none of the companies made a profit, but they had a huge stock price. Stock prices are far more complicated then that, also a stock that is at 100 dollars isn't always more expensive then a 10 dollar stock. I personally think that Apple's stock is coming into line where it should be.
Also, Apple still has extremely high margins in the computer industry, they are exploiting cheap labor while still charging a premium for their products, where as other companies like Dell exploit cheap labor but have very low margins.
Also Chris, if you can give some examples or even something more then 1 line answers to prove your arguement.
Actually, the first one making an assertion is responsible for providing the proof.
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
You also seem extremely uninformed. Libertarians are nowhere NEAR socialists.
www.lp.org
Unless they're in New York.
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
No. look up the terms. A libertarian is, if anything, the exact opposite of a socialist. The libertarian believes that one shouldn't pay taxes of any kind, except perhaps for the defense of the country. The government should make no laws constraining business in any way, and that we, as individuals, should be allowed to do just about anything we wish.
You are confusing libertarian with liberal. A libertarian is to the right of George (gotta love him!) Bush. A liberal is to the left of Bill Clinton.
Originally posted by slughead
I agree the US exploits Japan.. but on the other hand, Japan makes way better cars.
It somehow evens out in the end.
After reading a previous post, I'm personally boycotting Apple for NOT opening up one of these factories in Djibouti.
But, in the end, this can't be enslavement because it's voluntary. These people can either work here or work at some place even crappier, or not work at all out of protest of not making $6/hr like they would in America. Any one of these options would shut down this factory immediately, and it would move to Djibouti.
The article mentioned by this topic was heavily slanted using language. "<i>Only</i> $X/wk", "<i>Forced</i> to stand."
You journalism majors should take note: this is how you're going to convince the world to destroy itself in the future!
Oh, BTW, I'm working at a job where I would be formally disciplined if I sat down while not on break--warehouse worker for a small business. I just started back there today after leaving to go to school for a few months. It doesn't pay very much but I'm working there because nobody else would hire me for such weird hours and for short a time. I can't spend more than $5/day on food with my budget, and in America, that's nothin.
Where's my offensive 12 year-old to fend off the capitalists?
Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.
I'm confused...
Originally posted by marklar
...
just becuase we all suffered a hundred years ago, doesnt mean that others have to suffer now, or are you into some kind of 'penalty' for industrialisation?. clearly one would have hoped that civilisation would have advanced to the extent that even though people work in factories they should be treated better than the 19th century. also the issue isnt just about wages. its about issues such as forced overtime, unfair dismissials, a lack of any system to check that there are any under age workers. ...
It's kind of like teenagers going through puberty. It just has to happen for us to grow up.
Originally posted by fuyutsuki
I've spoken to a few, and at least in this part of the world they're pretty much standard socialist + escape clause for everything any "socialist government" has ever done to its people. The whole thing's a dream ... anarchy + perfect benevolence to your fellow man? I'm far from authoritarian myself, but it sounds like wishful hooey with religious (afterlife perfection) undertones!
Wow. What part of the world is that? Libertarians are free marketeers. That's not socialism. There are some anarchist libertarians, but I would hazard a guess that most are socially liberal, but personally conservative.
Originally posted by melgross
Unless they're in New York.
If this is so, I'd be utterly aghast. What has happened to the ideas put forth by Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, et al.
Originally posted by SpamSandwich
If this is so, I'd be utterly aghast. What has happened to the ideas put forth by Ayn Rand, Thomas Jefferson, et al.
Well, we have all kinds here in NYC. From the far right to the far left.
Originally posted by melgross
Japan exploits as well. They prevent many US goods from being sold at competitive prices with high tarifs. Their banking and other business laws are heavily biased against foreign companies.
yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.
Originally posted by Apparatus
It's so sad to see a bunch of selfish mental midgets trying to justify a Chinese woman working 15 hours a day for 40 bucks a week, just so they can feel good about themselves and not try and do anything to stop it.
okay, you first
Originally posted by shigzeo
yeah, that is "free market" mate. forget it. at least you live in a country that if it shouts loud enough (and it does), people will listen. like for instance ups sueing canadian gov because nafta makes other nations pay homage to usa. don't bring up usa and bias, it has done everything to preserve (even at federal level) its dominance over other nations and markets.
Despite what you think, we're still much better than many other places. We actually allow most foreign companies buy up American firms even though our companies can't do so in their countries. NAFTA has hurt our workers more than our partners, and we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.
We certainly aren't perfect. I don't agree with many of the farm subsidies, but I can understand the defense of what is left of the steel industry, considering how important it is for national security.
But, some countries have very strong protectionist feelings. If we matched them piece by piece, there would be little international trade at all.
Originally posted by melgross
we haven't developed standards designed for the purpose of keeping other products out of our market as the Europeans have done.
Master of the sweeping statement.
I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Master of the sweeping statement.
I'm sure both the US and Europe have done both. The 1967 safety requirements on cars comes immediately to mind as it decimated European car imports into the USA. And we still can't export beef into the USA without pumping it full of hormones which are banned here.
I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.
The UL standards spec the electrical characteristics of a device. The physical characteristics are left to other standards bodies.
The DIN standards characterize both. In the US it is legal to utilize either standard for imported equipment. We had imported equipment from Europe that used DIN electricals.
But, in Europe, only DIN standard electricals are allowed. American equipment won't physically fit the DIN standard. Parts have to be DIN certified. It cost much more for an American company to do that. Also, DIN standard parts, such as contactors are spec'd much closer to the size. There is very little overload capacity built-in. American parts are spect'd so that there is more overload capacity. This leads to bigger parts that don't fit the DIN rails.
So, European equipment sold here is built in Europe with European parts, while American equipment for export to Europe must be fitted with European parts assembled in Europe because the unit must be inspected both before and after assembly. So, the parts must be bought there. Not enough equipment is sold there for American manufacturers to make a lot of DIN spec parts, and they still must be assembled there.
I'm refering to the photo lab equipment I bought for my lab.
Originally posted by melgross
I'll give a good example then. WE have the UL standards, they have the DIN standards.
To be more precise, the Germans have the DIN standard, which has traditionally been the strictest. Britain has the British Standard or BS Kitemark. I'm sure other European countries have their own also. These national standards however are gradually being superseded by European Community normalised standards in order that there's one standard Europe wide. That's so that there's a single market and each country can compete fairly with each other without barriers. As you can imagine, it takes a while for everyone to agree on them. Standards in Greece aren't as strict as Germany.
If you look on the back of your Mac you'll see a 'CE' mark indicating it conforms to European normalised standards. These CE standards generally are a dumbing down so that poorer nations don't have to meet Germany, Britain or France's higher standards.
Your suggestion that Europe produces standards in order to prevent competition is way off although I can understand why meeting DIN standards might be seen as such.
European agricultural standards are always fun ones for us Brits though. At one point Europe produced a standard for bananas that wasn't curvy. This seems to have been because Britain buys most of it's bananas from (British) Commonwealth countries where they're curvy. The French didn't like that. Neither did the USA. Funnily enough, the Daily Mail didn't like that either.
As a related aside, I live in a country where the average wage is 200 Euro / Month with 40% unemployment. A family of four with this can afford a one-room apartment, a loaf of bread per day, veggies and fresh stuff, and maybe eat a nice meal with meat once per week. The family has almost no extra to make any sort of safety net, so they are 100% dependent on that job, and if that job goes away, the living conditions deteriorate rapidly. And because employment prospects are dim, the worker earning the salary will do practically anything to keep the job, whether it's pushups or 15-hour days or a paycut. The worker has no power whatsoever.
And this is in a country with a reasonable standard-of-living, somewhere like China this would be magnified 10x. I'm shocked at the number of people calling this a 'good thing for the Chinese.'