Please note that Emagic will continue as a seperate division, so I think that Logic will continue as a product.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
JLL How do you know that eMagic will continue as a separate division? Won't Apple just tweak and rebadge the Logic line of applications as their own now? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>For those of us not familiar with audio apps can someone give us a thumbnail sketch of emagic and how they rank in the world of pro and consumer apps?</strong><hr></blockquote>
One could say that Logic Audio Platinum is THE senquenser, at leat in the pro market. It is often with ProTools as it runs natively on TDM hardware (what PT uses), Cubase and Nuendo do not, Im not sure about Digital Performer.
It is not that popular in the consumer/hoddyist market, because of its high price and long learning curve, Apple could surely do something to those two things. I think the best way to do this would be to make MicroLogicAV or Logic Audio Silver more mac like, and bundle it with ever sold mac, that would be sweet.
[quote]Apple are reportedly pissed at Digidesign for arse-ing around for so long with Protools for OSX <hr></blockquote>
I wouldn't be so sure of that. More ss than any other app ported from 9 yet, Protools is probably the most difficult. Digidesign has been waiting for 10.2, the support needed in the OS just hasn't been there. With ProTools, you have an incedibly complex system that needs low level access to hardware and must work in perfect sync. Digi won't release a buggy product becasue they have clients that rely on ProTools for billing hours.
However, this is not to say that this isn't a shot across the bow for Digidesign. However, I think that the two products fill different niches.
This is more of a threat to Mark of the Unicorn and Steinberg, I think, than Digidesign (Avid). In fact, because Logic Audio is the only one of the three big audio/midi sequencers (Logic, Cubase, Digital Performer) to closely integrate with Pro Tools, this acquisition actually positions Apple to exert pressure in two ways -- upon Logic, and upon Pro Tools (slightly and indirectly, but still...)
it's a good point to say that no one will probably develop sequencers for mac anymore. logic is so good already, and will only get much better now, that no other companies will be able to compete on the platform.
<strong>it's a good point to say that no one will probably develop sequencers for mac anymore. logic is so good already, and will only get much better now, that no other companies will be able to compete on the platform.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Geez - I hope this isn't the case. I use MicroLogic AV and whilst it is solid, the gui is pretty mundane. I've also been checking the Logic Gold programme on the eMagic website. Same gui layout (for the most part), understandably, but with more buttons for more features.
MOTU's Digital Performer kicks Logic's butt in terms of having a slick gui - and industry leading features (granted most were propietory such as Free MIDI and MTS, but they were always ahead of the game). Secondly, MOTU's hardware (aside from the ludicrously expensive top end ProTools hardware) is the hardware that most people rely on day in day out for their DAWs. To this end, I would suggest that MOTU's integration of hardware and software is (was?) superior to the competition.
<strong>For those of us not familiar with audio apps can someone give us a thumbnail sketch of emagic and how they rank in the world of pro and consumer apps? I've heard names like Motu and Pro Tools and such tossed about but have have no idea what they mean.
BTW - ting5 - thanks for the scoop.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Logic is positioned beside Nuendo and now Cubase SX as the leading VST platforms. MOTU is a hardware maker who also makes an app that is not widely used (their hardware is their meal ticket), while Pro Tools is a TDM platform with both hardware and software. Someone said earlier that Pro Tools is more of an "environment" but that isn't necessarily true anymore.
The VST platfom which Apple is aligning beside is an open one which allows 3rd Party companies to develop hardware which works with the VST software. Pro Tools is the same thing only closed - meaning you can only buy products which Digidesign makes. This makes the Pro Tools hardware high priced because the market is cornered.
As VST effects processing units for your PCI slot become more available it is becoming a very rich "environment". I already have 2 PCI hardware processors by two different companies to add effects to my music. I believe this open system is a good one and promotes competition in the hardware.
Which brings us to Apple getting involved in the "open" system. This is great news and although I'm not a Logic fan I will now watch it's releases with more interest. It is natural that Apple has chosen the more upgradable VST platform as this is more akin to the movement happening with Final Cut in the video market.
People getting the same work done with smaller setups.
If Apple could translate the guts of Logic into an iApp with the functionality of say... Pro Tools Free, I think it could sell a lot of machines. There are a lot of hobbyist musicians out there who would really benefit from an iMusic or whatever, like the aspiring filmmaker hit the goldmine finding iMovie. I really like the direction Apple is headed with these recent acquisitions. Now if we just had a breakthrough new Power Mac...
Geez - I hope this isn't the case. I use MicroLogic AV and whilst it is solid, the gui is pretty mundane. I've also been checking the Logic Gold programme on the eMagic website. Same gui layout (for the most part), understandably, but with more buttons for more features.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a pretty huge difference between Micrologic and Logic Audio Platinum, not all of which is immediately apparent from looking at screen shots of the main user interface.
How long until it disappears from Apple's website?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are also features there on Digidesign and Steinberg. Just because Apple bought Emagic doesn't mean they want to eradicate these other companies completely. I'm sure they'd love it if Logic took a position in the audio/midi market similar to their position with FCP in the DV market, but if actually benefits Apple if Digi/Steinberg/MOTU keep making products for the Mac.
Well, if they had to buy somebody, I'm glad they bought the best - eMagic - I just hope they actually got God with the deal (Programmer Gerhard Lengeling), not just a compendium of the best ideas he had yesterday, now to be updated by committee.
Gerhard was so committed back when I met the guy, that he took his PowerBook with Logic's source code with him everywhere, lunch, dinner, meetings, it didn't matter, just in case he had an idea.
(It's too bad women don't find this sexier, cause if they did, the world would be a much better place, especially in a few generations ... but I digress ...)
... there's a war which has been simmering for quite some time now, but is due to break open fairly widely, fairly soon.
And it's all due to DSP.
Thanks to the G4's AltiVec engine (and hopefully, the soon to be released DDR capable 7500 G4's, followed - cross the fingers - with next years G5's) ... the whole purpose of having proprietary DSP cards is slowly going out the window. Anybody's who's seen a demo of Reason on OSX (or even Nuendo on OS9!) knows that the days of proprietary and very expensive hardware DSP cards providing a compelling value proposition for a large number of users, are quickly coming to an close.
So it's going to get harder and harder for Digi to justify it's prices for it's hardware ...
There's clearly a move away from closed formats and towards open standards of file and data interchange which can take advantage of native DSP.
This is what's happening in Video, and I'm totally unsurprised that it's starting to happen in something that takes (generally) 1/10th video's bandwidth, Audio.
What I hope Apple can bring to the table in all of this is better cooperation with eMagic, on architecting a central killer, AltiVec DSP engine ... I mean, it's all well and good that eMAgic's got some cool Native stuff today, but man, with the coming wave of DDR AltiVec chips, there's going to be one hell of a lot of horsepower just waiting to be harnessed provided the write software could be written for it.
I'm hoping the new Apple/Emagic partnership could do this.
There's a pretty huge difference between Micrologic and Logic Audio Platinum, not all of which is immediately apparent from looking at screen shots of the main user interface.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Granted, I understand and acknowledge this - I was just cutting corners with my post and didn't want to delve into the merits of the technical wizadry which makes a programme tick. My main beef was that I preferred the gui/working environment of DP to what I saw on the eMagic web site.
[quote]Originally posted by sizzle chest:
<strong>
There are also features there on Digidesign and Steinberg. Just because Apple bought Emagic doesn't mean they want to eradicate these other companies completely. I'm sure they'd love it if Logic took a position in the audio/midi market similar to their position with FCP in the DV market, but if actually benefits Apple if Digi/Steinberg/MOTU keep making products for the Mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I didn't realise this since I didn't look around there... I hit that page directly as a link from the MOTU web site. Me being lazy. Apologies. (Sheesh - it's 2:25am , I gotta get some sleep!)
Bottom line is I hope the other companies continue to make their programmes and offer viable alternatives for the end user.
Whilst I'm happy with what this means for Apple's market share, I am beginning to become concerned if this results in companies such as MOTU biting the dust. We've already seen Opcode go down... I wouldn't want that to happen to MOTU/Steinberg/Digi.
No matter, sizzle chest, you talk sense. I hope that music software thrives on the Mac platform and becomes a key drawing card which entices others to *switch*. As I said, it's about time Apple put some effort into promoting music/audio software tools.
Thanks Jamie - I understand that - my question was that if this is going to develop into something similar to FCP, then wouldn't they (Apple) instead just rebadge the eMagic line of programmes as Apple ones?
Please note that Emagic will continue as a seperate division, so I think that Logic will continue as a product.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a very good point. Have any of the other Apple buyouts had statements to this effect or just Emagic? Perhaps it will remain just as it is except no more Windows version and better integration with OS X.
This is a very good point. Have any of the other Apple buyouts had statements to this effect or just Emagic? Perhaps it will remain just as it is except no more Windows version and better integration with OS X.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If this is the case, then am I right in surmising that Apple's buyout policy was primarily to cease Widows music apps from Emagic, and - at the same time - hopefully pick up their market share. I feel like I'm missing something. Surely, they'll want to release some software as their own, won't they?
I would have thought that we'll see a trickle down effect and be provided with some new Apple branded products. Perhaps, sepcifically in the education sector. Also, what about MIDI/audio hardware... do you think Apple will go there now?
I don't get Apple saying that Emagic will remain as a separate entity. What does this achieve for them after a buy-out?
How does this compare with the FCP scenario - I can't remember who they bought out there... can somebody point me in the right direction please for a comparison. Thanks.
Just because Emagic remains a distinct entity & brand, doesn't mean they're completely autonomous from Apple. For example, it's safe to say that Emagic did not volunteer to cancel Windows product development, which accounted for over 1/3 of their revenue. Certainly that was one of Apple's terms for the deal, in exchange for which Emagic gets a bunch of money and a special degree of technical support & guidance from Apple. I fully expect this will remove any doubt as to which audio/midi sequencer will end up being the best option for OSX. I had been leaning toward upgrading Digital Performer as soon as the OSX version came out, and now I'll certainly wait and see what comes from Emagic/Apple.
Comments
<strong>
Please note that Emagic will continue as a seperate division, so I think that Logic will continue as a product.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
JLL How do you know that eMagic will continue as a separate division? Won't Apple just tweak and rebadge the Logic line of applications as their own now? <img src="confused.gif" border="0">
<strong>For those of us not familiar with audio apps can someone give us a thumbnail sketch of emagic and how they rank in the world of pro and consumer apps?</strong><hr></blockquote>
One could say that Logic Audio Platinum is THE senquenser, at leat in the pro market. It is often with ProTools as it runs natively on TDM hardware (what PT uses), Cubase and Nuendo do not, Im not sure about Digital Performer.
It is not that popular in the consumer/hoddyist market, because of its high price and long learning curve, Apple could surely do something to those two things. I think the best way to do this would be to make MicroLogicAV or Logic Audio Silver more mac like, and bundle it with ever sold mac, that would be sweet.
[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: Decurion ]</p>
I wouldn't be so sure of that. More ss than any other app ported from 9 yet, Protools is probably the most difficult. Digidesign has been waiting for 10.2, the support needed in the OS just hasn't been there. With ProTools, you have an incedibly complex system that needs low level access to hardware and must work in perfect sync. Digi won't release a buggy product becasue they have clients that rely on ProTools for billing hours.
However, this is not to say that this isn't a shot across the bow for Digidesign. However, I think that the two products fill different niches.
<strong>
JLL How do you know that eMagic will continue as a separate division? </strong><hr></blockquote>
From the <a href="http://www.apple.com/pr/library/2002/jul/01emagic.html"; target="_blank">Apple Press Release</a>:
[quote]Emagic will operate as a wholly owned division of Apple.<hr></blockquote>
J :cool:
2nd- i'm a little worried.
there is no turning back now. Apple is going to HAVE TO offer the whole widget now cause who will develop for a platform that provides it's own apps.
midi and audio have been too complicated for too long.
mac simple + logic = good.
<strong>it's a good point to say that no one will probably develop sequencers for mac anymore. logic is so good already, and will only get much better now, that no other companies will be able to compete on the platform.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Geez - I hope this isn't the case. I use MicroLogic AV and whilst it is solid, the gui is pretty mundane. I've also been checking the Logic Gold programme on the eMagic website. Same gui layout (for the most part), understandably, but with more buttons for more features.
MOTU's Digital Performer kicks Logic's butt in terms of having a slick gui - and industry leading features (granted most were propietory such as Free MIDI and MTS, but they were always ahead of the game). Secondly, MOTU's hardware (aside from the ludicrously expensive top end ProTools hardware) is the hardware that most people rely on day in day out for their DAWs. To this end, I would suggest that MOTU's integration of hardware and software is (was?) superior to the competition.
Did anybody ever see <a href="http://www.apple.com/creative/musicaudio/motu/"; target="_blank">this</a>?
How long until it disappears from Apple's website?
<strong>For those of us not familiar with audio apps can someone give us a thumbnail sketch of emagic and how they rank in the world of pro and consumer apps? I've heard names like Motu and Pro Tools and such tossed about but have have no idea what they mean.
BTW - ting5 - thanks for the scoop.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Logic is positioned beside Nuendo and now Cubase SX as the leading VST platforms. MOTU is a hardware maker who also makes an app that is not widely used (their hardware is their meal ticket), while Pro Tools is a TDM platform with both hardware and software. Someone said earlier that Pro Tools is more of an "environment" but that isn't necessarily true anymore.
The VST platfom which Apple is aligning beside is an open one which allows 3rd Party companies to develop hardware which works with the VST software. Pro Tools is the same thing only closed - meaning you can only buy products which Digidesign makes. This makes the Pro Tools hardware high priced because the market is cornered.
As VST effects processing units for your PCI slot become more available it is becoming a very rich "environment". I already have 2 PCI hardware processors by two different companies to add effects to my music. I believe this open system is a good one and promotes competition in the hardware.
Which brings us to Apple getting involved in the "open" system. This is great news and although I'm not a Logic fan I will now watch it's releases with more interest. It is natural that Apple has chosen the more upgradable VST platform as this is more akin to the movement happening with Final Cut in the video market.
People getting the same work done with smaller setups.
BM
<strong>
Have you used the Mac OS X version??</strong><hr></blockquote>
I wish I had, but it's still not released
bye.
<strong>
Geez - I hope this isn't the case. I use MicroLogic AV and whilst it is solid, the gui is pretty mundane. I've also been checking the Logic Gold programme on the eMagic website. Same gui layout (for the most part), understandably, but with more buttons for more features.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's a pretty huge difference between Micrologic and Logic Audio Platinum, not all of which is immediately apparent from looking at screen shots of the main user interface.
[quote]Originally posted by Mac+:
<strong>
Did anybody ever see <a href="http://www.apple.com/creative/musicaudio/motu/"; target="_blank">this</a>?
How long until it disappears from Apple's website?</strong><hr></blockquote>
There are also features there on Digidesign and Steinberg. Just because Apple bought Emagic doesn't mean they want to eradicate these other companies completely. I'm sure they'd love it if Logic took a position in the audio/midi market similar to their position with FCP in the DV market, but if actually benefits Apple if Digi/Steinberg/MOTU keep making products for the Mac.
<strong>
Looks like my wish of having "Office Production" is coming true. Apple only needs a decent 3D application to rule the roost! I nominate Maya!!
[ 07-01-2002: Message edited by: hmurchison ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
I was thinking about SoftImage but later thought kinda impossible cause it's under Avid
Gerhard was so committed back when I met the guy, that he took his PowerBook with Logic's source code with him everywhere, lunch, dinner, meetings, it didn't matter, just in case he had an idea.
(It's too bad women don't find this sexier, cause if they did, the world would be a much better place, especially in a few generations ... but I digress ...)
... there's a war which has been simmering for quite some time now, but is due to break open fairly widely, fairly soon.
And it's all due to DSP.
Thanks to the G4's AltiVec engine (and hopefully, the soon to be released DDR capable 7500 G4's, followed - cross the fingers - with next years G5's) ... the whole purpose of having proprietary DSP cards is slowly going out the window. Anybody's who's seen a demo of Reason on OSX (or even Nuendo on OS9!) knows that the days of proprietary and very expensive hardware DSP cards providing a compelling value proposition for a large number of users, are quickly coming to an close.
So it's going to get harder and harder for Digi to justify it's prices for it's hardware ...
There's clearly a move away from closed formats and towards open standards of file and data interchange which can take advantage of native DSP.
This is what's happening in Video, and I'm totally unsurprised that it's starting to happen in something that takes (generally) 1/10th video's bandwidth, Audio.
What I hope Apple can bring to the table in all of this is better cooperation with eMagic, on architecting a central killer, AltiVec DSP engine ... I mean, it's all well and good that eMAgic's got some cool Native stuff today, but man, with the coming wave of DDR AltiVec chips, there's going to be one hell of a lot of horsepower just waiting to be harnessed provided the write software could be written for it.
I'm hoping the new Apple/Emagic partnership could do this.
Hell, if they can't do it, nobody could.
<strong>
There's a pretty huge difference between Micrologic and Logic Audio Platinum, not all of which is immediately apparent from looking at screen shots of the main user interface.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Granted, I understand and acknowledge this - I was just cutting corners with my post and didn't want to delve into the merits of the technical wizadry which makes a programme tick. My main beef was that I preferred the gui/working environment of DP to what I saw on the eMagic web site.
[quote]Originally posted by sizzle chest:
<strong>
There are also features there on Digidesign and Steinberg. Just because Apple bought Emagic doesn't mean they want to eradicate these other companies completely. I'm sure they'd love it if Logic took a position in the audio/midi market similar to their position with FCP in the DV market, but if actually benefits Apple if Digi/Steinberg/MOTU keep making products for the Mac.</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, I didn't realise this since I didn't look around there... I hit that page directly as a link from the MOTU web site. Me being lazy. Apologies. (Sheesh - it's 2:25am , I gotta get some sleep!)
Bottom line is I hope the other companies continue to make their programmes and offer viable alternatives for the end user.
Whilst I'm happy with what this means for Apple's market share, I am beginning to become concerned if this results in companies such as MOTU biting the dust. We've already seen Opcode go down... I wouldn't want that to happen to MOTU/Steinberg/Digi.
No matter, sizzle chest, you talk sense. I hope that music software thrives on the Mac platform and becomes a key drawing card which entices others to *switch*. As I said, it's about time Apple put some effort into promoting music/audio software tools.
<strong>quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally posted by Mac+:
JLL How do you know that eMagic will continue as a separate division?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From the Apple Press Release:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Emagic will operate as a wholly owned division of Apple.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
J :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
Thanks Jamie - I understand that - my question was that if this is going to develop into something similar to FCP, then wouldn't they (Apple) instead just rebadge the eMagic line of programmes as Apple ones?
<strong>
Please note that Emagic will continue as a seperate division, so I think that Logic will continue as a product.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
This is a very good point. Have any of the other Apple buyouts had statements to this effect or just Emagic? Perhaps it will remain just as it is except no more Windows version and better integration with OS X.
<strong>
This is a very good point. Have any of the other Apple buyouts had statements to this effect or just Emagic? Perhaps it will remain just as it is except no more Windows version and better integration with OS X.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If this is the case, then am I right in surmising that Apple's buyout policy was primarily to cease Widows music apps from Emagic, and - at the same time - hopefully pick up their market share. I feel like I'm missing something. Surely, they'll want to release some software as their own, won't they?
I would have thought that we'll see a trickle down effect and be provided with some new Apple branded products. Perhaps, sepcifically in the education sector. Also, what about MIDI/audio hardware... do you think Apple will go there now?
I don't get Apple saying that Emagic will remain as a separate entity. What does this achieve for them after a buy-out?
How does this compare with the FCP scenario - I can't remember who they bought out there... can somebody point me in the right direction please for a comparison. Thanks.