I tried Logic a bit . . . I found it impenetrable . . . I use PTools and found that intuitive . . but the manual for Logic was nearly impossible to get even started on . .
MOTU is a hardware maker who also makes an app that is not widely used (their hardware is their meal ticket),
Where did you hear this? This is not true. Although their hardware is compatible with a variety of platforms and extremely popular, Digital Performer is also an extremely popular and widely-used software platform.
The VST platfom which Apple is aligning beside is an open one which allows 3rd Party companies to develop hardware which works with the VST software. Pro Tools is the same thing only closed - meaning you can only buy products which Digidesign makes.
This is true as far as audio hardware is concerned, but not MIDI hardware and not software.
This makes the Pro Tools hardware high priced because the market is cornered.
Actually, it's more expensive because the hardware is significantly more expensive to make than hardware such as the hardware MOTU makes and even DSP-based hardware from such companies as Universal Audio and TC Works. The hardware is also significanly more powerful, especially the new HD Process cards. Also, while the UA and TC cards work with a few software platforms, plugins that run on these cards are scarce...currently only plugins made by the manufacturers of the cards is supported, and although TC has announced a few others who will jump in soon, so far they're only supported by their own software.
>Not only that, I believe Emagic outsources their Logic control to an outside manufacturer.
Yes, this is true, it is manufactured by Mackie. They don't try to hide that fact.
>It's as good as a mixing board within the Logic enviornment. Yea I know, no I/O. It looks exactly like Digidesign's Pro Control which is also not a mixing board but a controller.
This is far from the truth. It looks similar in that is has eight 100 mm touch-sensitive faders and transport controls, but it's much smaller and doesn't give nearly as much feedback as the Pro Control does. Pro Control communicates with Pro Tools via Ethernet rather than MIDI, so it's not limited to the resolution MIDI offers. Also, while Pro Control doesn't offer audio inputs and outputs to Pro Tools, it does offer a very comprehensive control room routing system, with Logic Control does not. Having said that, it's a very powerful control surface, but there's a reason it's only a tenth the cost of Pro Control.
Just a few points which may or may not relate to some of the points on this or related threads.
I have to say I was completely blindsided by this latest element of Apple's ongoing programme of retail therapy: How do I feel about it? Enthusiastic!
A lot has been discussed about Emagic's future status and that of the brand. I would think that the "seperate division" thing is a practicality issue as much as anything. Emagic's management might have found it difficult to uproot key personnel from a stable lifestyle in Germany plus something of the company's culture may have been lost in any move to Silicon Valley.
Once you have decided to leave an acquisition in place, some thousands of miles from your corporate headquarters, you may as well continue to run it as a seperate brand, but making it very clear in marketing messages that Emagic is now (very much) A Division of Apple Computer and that the Logic products are highly OSX-optimised (which should be a primary aim).
This has several benefits: The two main ones being a) customers perceive the continuity of the brand and all of its values and b) the personnel continue to perceive themselves as independent free-thinkers whose brand values are recognised by their adoptive parent.
What are the possibilities?
I do think that iSound is a very real possibility Delivering a 4- or 8-track DAW with cut-down sequencing would be a great USP which would partner very nicely with iMovie and iDVD. The logic for this is overwhelming - the i- products (including iBook and iMac) would become the definitive multimedia environment for the K-12 marketplace and the domestic marketplace as well.
Using Apple's HUI team to apply the same quality of ergonomics that can be seen in FCP will result in a range of post-production applications with an integrated look-and-feel, analogous to the same evolution that various Adobe apps have undergone.
Apple could - if it wished - use Logic as a way to help Yamaha bring mLan into the mainstream as a de facto standard, which with Firewire over fibre coming up on the horizon (that Zayante purchase begins to make more sense than ever) would make a combination of Apple computers/Emagic software/mLan-equipped instruments a definitive solution both in studio and live performance environments.
The end-game is a full range of production and post-production tools which can deliver content into a variety of formats, including QT6 (and it's MPEG-4 successors and competitors), DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, HDTV, d-cinema as well as Blu-ray HD media.
If Apple could team up with Sony on the HD and d-cinema front, Apple would be one of the few companies who will be able to offer content producers a complete range of solutions that will allow the repurposing of audio/visual content from the 3G mobile phone to the multiplex cinema.
There are still a few gaps that need to be addressed: Hardware performance is a bete noire for many contributors here; there is still no mainstream multi-channel audio out being actively marketed either on the mobo or as a third-party solution.
If Apple is still interested in making purchases in the creative field, can I suggest <a href="http://www.dataton.se"; target="_blank">Dataton</a> who make interesting hardware and software for controlling multimedia presentations in environments such as exhibitions, museums, and sports stadiums.
Many years ago, I used to work for a company that did multi-image work for people like Toyota and Xerox Corp: I have to admit then when, after a long break away from the marketplace, I went to the launch of Standout I was blown away by the scale of the presentations that it made possible.
Using Firewire over Fibre (it's a noise and distance thing) as a medium for consolidating the control and content of several hundred presentation devices including cinema-class DLP rigs, high-definition audio, plasma displays, plus robotic elements is too neat a possibility not to research. It may not be a vast market, but the visibility and the profile is the thing that counts here.
<strong>Other than that, i dont really mind apple taking over emagic. I also couldnt care less about the windows veresion being dropped. These people arent left in the dark. There are dozens of other apps (including a few VERY capable, maybe even more so than logic) that they can go to. OR if they are really serious about music creation, they will buy a mac. The macinotosh platform has always been the choice platform for music production, and i see apple's &emagic as apple trying to carry that into the OS X days.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just because a lot of people use macs [i do] doesn't mean that's the ONLY capable OS/platform. What if microsoft bought Adobe & dropped mac support? and told you to go recompile gimp on the linux platform to use as your photoshop replacement?
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........
<strong>Have to agree with giant on the never touched logic comment. Logic and Protools are pretty much the elite.....the rest are in a lower class. </strong><hr></blockquote>
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........</strong><hr></blockquote>
In what sense is it "obsolete" in 2-3 months? Does the software stop working? Does it stop doing what it was advertised to do? Emagic has already said they will continue to support it even after they are no longer releasing Windows versions. Not only that, but there is word that they may issue a point release update prior to the 9/30 cutoff (5.1 or something).
Jeez, when I switched from PC to Mac for my audio work, I stopped upgrading my PC apps but I still use them sometimes. I still run Sound Forge 4.0 once in a while, even though 6.0 has been released, and it works fine.
The idea of a lawsuit, though, that's just hysterical. Software is not sold with a promise by its maker to continue releasing updates & upgrades into perpetuity. It's an unfortunate deal for LA Windows users (I know some of 'em) but a situation not without precedent in Mac circles, and I don't recall any class action lawsuits being filed (though people certainly do like to threaten them when such discontinuations occur).
What's with this upgrade hysteria people have, as if a previous version becomes unusable the moment a newer version (I hesitate to say "upgrade" because often a newer version is merely different, not better, and sometimes worse) becomes available?
Just because a lot of people use macs [i do] doesn't mean that's the ONLY capable OS/platform. What if microsoft bought Adobe & dropped mac support? and told you to go recompile gimp on the linux platform to use as your photoshop replacement?
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whilst the debate on the disenfranchisement of the 30% of Emagic users is perfectly valid and laudable (I can just imagine the view of WinXXX zealots if the tables were reversed), I can't help but feel that the argument is becoming more polarised than is strictly fair or necessary.
All the statement on Emagics website says is that "Emagic's Windows-based product offerings will be discontinued on September 30, 2002." In other words, you won't be able to buy it after that point, or (more accurately) it is "only available whilst current stocks last".
Discontinuing the sale of Logic for the Windows platform does not, by any logical leap, make that product obsolete.
In reality, Logic on Windows actually becomes obsolete (MS Word provides synonyms as: archaic; outmoded; outdated, etc.) the day MS makes Windows XP obsolete by not providing support for it in the PC standards for 2005 (or sometime after that).
The fact that Apple, in conjunction with the managers of Emagic, have decided that 5.2 (in all likelihood) marks the end of the Windows roadmap is not, IMHO, a valid cause to worry about legal action of any sort. Most companies will describe any statements regarding product development as "forward looking" and "subject to change and/or canellation without prior notice".
A thousand ambulance chasers will probably be willing to participate in some speculative "punt" in the courts, but the reality is that a win in a lower court in front of a typical corporate-bashing jury would probably be turned around at the appeal stage in front of a legally literate audience. Did hundreds of Data General sites sue EMC the day it announced that the computing platforms would be no more? No! Why? Because it would have been a waste of time and money!
What happens on 30/09 is not the end for Logic users who are using the product under Windows, merely the beginning of the end which will come sometime in 4-6 years (or even later) when you cannot buy hardware which supports WinXP anymore. Even 5 years usage of a product which costs $800 is a good deal by anyone's standards.
And anyone who is still using the same computer in 10 years time: Good luck to them.
<strong>You must have never touched Logic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually i've spent alot of time in my friend's little home recording studio playing around with Logic. Yes its a good program, but ProTools is far more intuitive. The GUI is the closest thing to perfection there is for a music app, it gets out of your way and puts the tools where you need them with out the slightest bit of hassle. Logic is good but it cant do it like ProTools.
As for everyone talking about the size of the Logic manual, have you seen the one that comes with ProTools? My manual is HUGE. It reads well though and is well-thought. It explains things in a way that manages to sink in without reading multiple times. (even though when i bought my protools rig i went through it 2x just so i would know protools inside out)
Actually i've spent alot of time in my friend's little home recording studio playing around with Logic. Yes its a good program, but ProTools is far more intuitive. The GUI is the closest thing to perfection there is for a music app, it gets out of your way and puts the tools where you need them with out the slightest bit of hassle. Logic is good but it cant do it like ProTools.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
One of the main reasons it's so hard is that you have a modular environment that allows you to work in just about any way you can think of. It's fun to see how different producers use logic, because no two do it the same. Pro-Tools tells you how to work. It's easier to use at first because it is much simpler and does less. Playing around at your friends house will not show you anything. You won't even realize the real differences until you've really worked with both making finished tracks. Emagic has a strong focus on making ergonomic products, and once you get used to using it you really appreciate it. While pro-tools definitly deals with audio objects in a much cleaner way, the overall versatility of logic trumps any of that. If you are just dealing with chunks of audio, then pro-tools is the way to go, no question. But if you are creating music in the digital environment, logic will give you the options you need. Emagic is a company geared toward the musician. Digidesign and Pro-Tools are focused on all digital audio needs, making it much better for general audio jobs.
I spent thousands for a Blue and White G3 and MOTU DP, and an 88key Yamaha and MU 50 tone generator.
First, MIDI sucks. It's hard. MOTU sucks. It's hard. The whole USB replaces serial was annoying, MOTU's own boxes didn't want to work with DP, so I finally got a MIDIMan USB.
I would love Apple forever if they made iMIDI or iMusic. Plus, my ol' High School just got 100,000 bucks for MIDI/computers. They have an NT ogre. I think I'll stop by and mention this news
Badtz, have you used MOTU? It's crap. Why does it have a proprietary, assugly GUI? Blech.
One of the main reasons it's so hard is that you have a modular environment that allows you to work in just about any way you can think of. It's fun to see how different producers use logic, because no two do it the same. Pro-Tools tells you how to work. It's easier to use at first because it is much simpler and does less. Playing around at your friends house will not show you anything. You won't even realize the real differences until you've really worked with both making finished tracks. Emagic has a strong focus on making ergonomic products, and once you get used to using it you really appreciate it. While pro-tools definitly deals with audio objects in a much cleaner way, the overall versatility of logic trumps any of that. If you are just dealing with chunks of audio, then pro-tools is the way to go, no question. But if you are creating music in the digital environment, logic will give you the options you need. Emagic is a company geared toward the musician. Digidesign and Pro-Tools are focused on all digital audio needs, making it much better for general audio jobs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Go tell that to the thousands and thousands of engineers/producers/mixers working in digital studios who have used both programs. Excuse my terminology when i said "playing around". I've done about a dozen projects with my friend in his studio and done some serious work in Logic. For you to tell me or any of the people i mentioned before that Logic trumps ProTools in versatality would just invoke a snicker.
Work at some studios and gain a little more experiance before you go around touting Logic in such a fashion (it is a great program dont get me wrong)
First, MIDI sucks. It's hard. MOTU sucks. It's hard. The whole USB replaces serial was annoying, MOTU's own boxes didn't want to work with DP, so I finally got a MIDIMan USB.
I would love Apple forever if they made iMIDI or iMusic.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
midi sucks? what do you mean ? why ?
about iMusic: that would be MicroLogic AV and a the midi interface MT4. Both emagic products. Plug-In your MidiMasterKeyboard and some "Tone Generator" and you can play music! You don't need apple for that.
Don't get me wrong: I think the aqusition of emagic is good for both companies
Go tell that to the thousands and thousands of engineers/producers/mixers working in digital studios who have used both programs. Excuse my terminology when i said "playing around". I've done about a dozen projects with my friend in his studio and done some serious work in Logic. For you to tell me or any of the people i mentioned before that Logic trumps ProTools in versatality would just invoke a snicker.
Work at some studios and gain a little more experiance before you go around touting Logic in such a fashion (it is a great program dont get me wrong)
</strong><hr></blockquote>
again: You obviously haven't used logic
And don't be such a baby. I'm conversing with you about the different aspects of audio software. You must have something to be insecure about if you get mad about a technical statement about software.
Badtz don't get me wrong..... Digital Performer is a very nice app. One of my good friends just purchased a Motu 828 and digital performer for his new Imac off my recommendation. I recommended it to him, thinking Apple was going to buy Motu and not emagic
I guess i was wrong on that one, but he is very happy after being an old school music maker. A die hard, not going to use a computer kind of guy. I wouldn't have told him to get Digital Performer if I thought it was second rate.
I meant it more from the cross platform side of things Logic and Protools were the top 2 for PC and Mac. Digital Performer was Mac only so I didn't mean to leave them out. My statement was aimed at cross platform choice.
<strong>... I wouldn't have told him to get Digital Performer if I thought it was second rate.
I meant it more from the cross platform side of things Logic and Protools were the top 2 for PC and Mac. Digital Performer was Mac only so I didn't mean to leave them out. My statement was aimed at cross platform choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough - but in the audio/MIDI sequencing world I am surprised that people aren't aware of MOTU's DP! It is used by countless US studio pros and, of course, many home users and is a top-end product as well.
Keyboard mag ran a sequencer shootout amongst the high end DAWs (within a reasonable budget - thus excluding ProTools) and MOTU came out very well. The competition did include Cubase and Logic as well. (Mind you, this was some time back and no sequencer comparison has since appeared).
Also, it is worth noting that DP 3.1 will include ProTools HD support I believe.
Emagic offers migration plan to existing Logic 5 Windows users
July 4th 2002
Emagic has always enjoyed a very close relationship with you, the users of our products - regardless of the platform you chose to use. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for your continued loyalty. Together, we have developed Logic into one of the most powerful systems of its kind, and now that Emagic is a member of the Apple family, Logic will become even better. Obviously, the platform does matter now and we would like to cordially invite all Logic Windows users to join us on the Macintosh.
It goes without saying that we will continue to service and support all Logic Windows owners according to the standard product warranty policies beyond September, 30th 2002. The Logic 5.2 subrelease that we recently announced is a perfect example of our commitment to servicing every existing user.
In addition, for those users of Logic 5 on Windows who wish to enjoy all the current and future benefits of Logic running on the Mac platform, Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st. This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well. The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly. We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.
Stay tuned as the next chapter in the success story of Emagic unfolds. This will be a very exciting one.
<strong> Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st. This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well. The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly. We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.
</strong><hr></blockquote>
And thus apple's plan begins to take effect. Sure you can continue to use your version of Logic without any additional cost, just go buy yourself a mac first. Great move by apple.
I had this amazing idea last night. Apple should now buy Native instruments. They are the largest developer of VST plug-ins, not to mention that their stuff is by far industry leading. Cutting off this supply to windows users would probably generate more switchers to the Mac than logic alone. At the moment, you can switch to Cubase and still use all of this stuff. Take NativeInstruments away from them too, and suddenly the PC has lost a major chunk of audio-development for professionals.
<strong>I had this amazing idea last night. Apple should now buy Native instruments. They are the largest developer of VST plug-ins, not to mention that their stuff is by far industry leading. Cutting off this supply to windows users would probably generate more switchers to the Mac than logic alone. At the moment, you can switch to Cubase and still use all of this stuff. Take NativeInstruments away from them too, and suddenly the PC has lost a major chunk of audio-development for professionals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
But I'll keep at it, I guess.
[QB]
MOTU is a hardware maker who also makes an app that is not widely used (their hardware is their meal ticket),
Where did you hear this? This is not true. Although their hardware is compatible with a variety of platforms and extremely popular, Digital Performer is also an extremely popular and widely-used software platform.
The VST platfom which Apple is aligning beside is an open one which allows 3rd Party companies to develop hardware which works with the VST software. Pro Tools is the same thing only closed - meaning you can only buy products which Digidesign makes.
This is true as far as audio hardware is concerned, but not MIDI hardware and not software.
This makes the Pro Tools hardware high priced because the market is cornered.
Actually, it's more expensive because the hardware is significantly more expensive to make than hardware such as the hardware MOTU makes and even DSP-based hardware from such companies as Universal Audio and TC Works. The hardware is also significanly more powerful, especially the new HD Process cards. Also, while the UA and TC cards work with a few software platforms, plugins that run on these cards are scarce...currently only plugins made by the manufacturers of the cards is supported, and although TC has announced a few others who will jump in soon, so far they're only supported by their own software.
>Not only that, I believe Emagic outsources their Logic control to an outside manufacturer.
Yes, this is true, it is manufactured by Mackie. They don't try to hide that fact.
>It's as good as a mixing board within the Logic enviornment. Yea I know, no I/O. It looks exactly like Digidesign's Pro Control which is also not a mixing board but a controller.
This is far from the truth. It looks similar in that is has eight 100 mm touch-sensitive faders and transport controls, but it's much smaller and doesn't give nearly as much feedback as the Pro Control does. Pro Control communicates with Pro Tools via Ethernet rather than MIDI, so it's not limited to the resolution MIDI offers. Also, while Pro Control doesn't offer audio inputs and outputs to Pro Tools, it does offer a very comprehensive control room routing system, with Logic Control does not. Having said that, it's a very powerful control surface, but there's a reason it's only a tenth the cost of Pro Control.
-Duardo
I have to say I was completely blindsided by this latest element of Apple's ongoing programme of retail therapy: How do I feel about it? Enthusiastic!
A lot has been discussed about Emagic's future status and that of the brand. I would think that the "seperate division" thing is a practicality issue as much as anything. Emagic's management might have found it difficult to uproot key personnel from a stable lifestyle in Germany plus something of the company's culture may have been lost in any move to Silicon Valley.
Once you have decided to leave an acquisition in place, some thousands of miles from your corporate headquarters, you may as well continue to run it as a seperate brand, but making it very clear in marketing messages that Emagic is now (very much) A Division of Apple Computer and that the Logic products are highly OSX-optimised (which should be a primary aim).
This has several benefits: The two main ones being a) customers perceive the continuity of the brand and all of its values and b) the personnel continue to perceive themselves as independent free-thinkers whose brand values are recognised by their adoptive parent.
What are the possibilities?
I do think that iSound is a very real possibility Delivering a 4- or 8-track DAW with cut-down sequencing would be a great USP which would partner very nicely with iMovie and iDVD. The logic for this is overwhelming - the i- products (including iBook and iMac) would become the definitive multimedia environment for the K-12 marketplace and the domestic marketplace as well.
Using Apple's HUI team to apply the same quality of ergonomics that can be seen in FCP will result in a range of post-production applications with an integrated look-and-feel, analogous to the same evolution that various Adobe apps have undergone.
Apple could - if it wished - use Logic as a way to help Yamaha bring mLan into the mainstream as a de facto standard, which with Firewire over fibre coming up on the horizon (that Zayante purchase begins to make more sense than ever) would make a combination of Apple computers/Emagic software/mLan-equipped instruments a definitive solution both in studio and live performance environments.
The end-game is a full range of production and post-production tools which can deliver content into a variety of formats, including QT6 (and it's MPEG-4 successors and competitors), DVD-Video, DVD-Audio, SACD, HDTV, d-cinema as well as Blu-ray HD media.
If Apple could team up with Sony on the HD and d-cinema front, Apple would be one of the few companies who will be able to offer content producers a complete range of solutions that will allow the repurposing of audio/visual content from the 3G mobile phone to the multiplex cinema.
There are still a few gaps that need to be addressed: Hardware performance is a bete noire for many contributors here; there is still no mainstream multi-channel audio out being actively marketed either on the mobo or as a third-party solution.
If Apple is still interested in making purchases in the creative field, can I suggest <a href="http://www.dataton.se"; target="_blank">Dataton</a> who make interesting hardware and software for controlling multimedia presentations in environments such as exhibitions, museums, and sports stadiums.
Many years ago, I used to work for a company that did multi-image work for people like Toyota and Xerox Corp: I have to admit then when, after a long break away from the marketplace, I went to the launch of Standout I was blown away by the scale of the presentations that it made possible.
Using Firewire over Fibre (it's a noise and distance thing) as a medium for consolidating the control and content of several hundred presentation devices including cinema-class DLP rigs, high-definition audio, plasma displays, plus robotic elements is too neat a possibility not to research. It may not be a vast market, but the visibility and the profile is the thing that counts here.
Just my $0.02, YMMV, etc.
<strong>Other than that, i dont really mind apple taking over emagic. I also couldnt care less about the windows veresion being dropped. These people arent left in the dark. There are dozens of other apps (including a few VERY capable, maybe even more so than logic) that they can go to. OR if they are really serious about music creation, they will buy a mac. The macinotosh platform has always been the choice platform for music production, and i see apple's &emagic as apple trying to carry that into the OS X days.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Just because a lot of people use macs [i do] doesn't mean that's the ONLY capable OS/platform. What if microsoft bought Adobe & dropped mac support? and told you to go recompile gimp on the linux platform to use as your photoshop replacement?
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........
<strong>Have to agree with giant on the never touched logic comment. Logic and Protools are pretty much the elite.....the rest are in a lower class. </strong><hr></blockquote>
There's MOTU/digital performer..........
<strong>
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........</strong><hr></blockquote>
In what sense is it "obsolete" in 2-3 months? Does the software stop working? Does it stop doing what it was advertised to do? Emagic has already said they will continue to support it even after they are no longer releasing Windows versions. Not only that, but there is word that they may issue a point release update prior to the 9/30 cutoff (5.1 or something).
Jeez, when I switched from PC to Mac for my audio work, I stopped upgrading my PC apps but I still use them sometimes. I still run Sound Forge 4.0 once in a while, even though 6.0 has been released, and it works fine.
The idea of a lawsuit, though, that's just hysterical. Software is not sold with a promise by its maker to continue releasing updates & upgrades into perpetuity. It's an unfortunate deal for LA Windows users (I know some of 'em) but a situation not without precedent in Mac circles, and I don't recall any class action lawsuits being filed (though people certainly do like to threaten them when such discontinuations occur).
What's with this upgrade hysteria people have, as if a previous version becomes unusable the moment a newer version (I hesitate to say "upgrade" because often a newer version is merely different, not better, and sometimes worse) becomes available?
<strong>
Just because a lot of people use macs [i do] doesn't mean that's the ONLY capable OS/platform. What if microsoft bought Adobe & dropped mac support? and told you to go recompile gimp on the linux platform to use as your photoshop replacement?
ALSO logic 5 was JUST updated and sold to PC users, who spent a good 300-800 bucks on software that is now obsolete in 2-3 months? wtf? I hope they get there money back! Or I could definitely see a possible lawsuit on their hands........</strong><hr></blockquote>
Whilst the debate on the disenfranchisement of the 30% of Emagic users is perfectly valid and laudable (I can just imagine the view of WinXXX zealots if the tables were reversed), I can't help but feel that the argument is becoming more polarised than is strictly fair or necessary.
All the statement on Emagics website says is that "Emagic's Windows-based product offerings will be discontinued on September 30, 2002." In other words, you won't be able to buy it after that point, or (more accurately) it is "only available whilst current stocks last".
Discontinuing the sale of Logic for the Windows platform does not, by any logical leap, make that product obsolete.
In reality, Logic on Windows actually becomes obsolete (MS Word provides synonyms as: archaic; outmoded; outdated, etc.) the day MS makes Windows XP obsolete by not providing support for it in the PC standards for 2005 (or sometime after that).
The fact that Apple, in conjunction with the managers of Emagic, have decided that 5.2 (in all likelihood) marks the end of the Windows roadmap is not, IMHO, a valid cause to worry about legal action of any sort. Most companies will describe any statements regarding product development as "forward looking" and "subject to change and/or canellation without prior notice".
A thousand ambulance chasers will probably be willing to participate in some speculative "punt" in the courts, but the reality is that a win in a lower court in front of a typical corporate-bashing jury would probably be turned around at the appeal stage in front of a legally literate audience. Did hundreds of Data General sites sue EMC the day it announced that the computing platforms would be no more? No! Why? Because it would have been a waste of time and money!
What happens on 30/09 is not the end for Logic users who are using the product under Windows, merely the beginning of the end which will come sometime in 4-6 years (or even later) when you cannot buy hardware which supports WinXP anymore. Even 5 years usage of a product which costs $800 is a good deal by anyone's standards.
And anyone who is still using the same computer in 10 years time: Good luck to them.
<strong>You must have never touched Logic.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Actually i've spent alot of time in my friend's little home recording studio playing around with Logic. Yes its a good program, but ProTools is far more intuitive. The GUI is the closest thing to perfection there is for a music app, it gets out of your way and puts the tools where you need them with out the slightest bit of hassle. Logic is good but it cant do it like ProTools.
As for everyone talking about the size of the Logic manual, have you seen the one that comes with ProTools? My manual is HUGE. It reads well though and is well-thought. It explains things in a way that manages to sink in without reading multiple times. (even though when i bought my protools rig i went through it 2x just so i would know protools inside out)
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Actually i've spent alot of time in my friend's little home recording studio playing around with Logic. Yes its a good program, but ProTools is far more intuitive. The GUI is the closest thing to perfection there is for a music app, it gets out of your way and puts the tools where you need them with out the slightest bit of hassle. Logic is good but it cant do it like ProTools.
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One of the main reasons it's so hard is that you have a modular environment that allows you to work in just about any way you can think of. It's fun to see how different producers use logic, because no two do it the same. Pro-Tools tells you how to work. It's easier to use at first because it is much simpler and does less. Playing around at your friends house will not show you anything. You won't even realize the real differences until you've really worked with both making finished tracks. Emagic has a strong focus on making ergonomic products, and once you get used to using it you really appreciate it. While pro-tools definitly deals with audio objects in a much cleaner way, the overall versatility of logic trumps any of that. If you are just dealing with chunks of audio, then pro-tools is the way to go, no question. But if you are creating music in the digital environment, logic will give you the options you need. Emagic is a company geared toward the musician. Digidesign and Pro-Tools are focused on all digital audio needs, making it much better for general audio jobs.
First, MIDI sucks. It's hard. MOTU sucks. It's hard. The whole USB replaces serial was annoying, MOTU's own boxes didn't want to work with DP, so I finally got a MIDIMan USB.
I would love Apple forever if they made iMIDI or iMusic. Plus, my ol' High School just got 100,000 bucks for MIDI/computers. They have an NT ogre. I think I'll stop by and mention this news
Badtz, have you used MOTU? It's crap. Why does it have a proprietary, assugly GUI? Blech.
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One of the main reasons it's so hard is that you have a modular environment that allows you to work in just about any way you can think of. It's fun to see how different producers use logic, because no two do it the same. Pro-Tools tells you how to work. It's easier to use at first because it is much simpler and does less. Playing around at your friends house will not show you anything. You won't even realize the real differences until you've really worked with both making finished tracks. Emagic has a strong focus on making ergonomic products, and once you get used to using it you really appreciate it. While pro-tools definitly deals with audio objects in a much cleaner way, the overall versatility of logic trumps any of that. If you are just dealing with chunks of audio, then pro-tools is the way to go, no question. But if you are creating music in the digital environment, logic will give you the options you need. Emagic is a company geared toward the musician. Digidesign and Pro-Tools are focused on all digital audio needs, making it much better for general audio jobs.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Go tell that to the thousands and thousands of engineers/producers/mixers working in digital studios who have used both programs. Excuse my terminology when i said "playing around". I've done about a dozen projects with my friend in his studio and done some serious work in Logic. For you to tell me or any of the people i mentioned before that Logic trumps ProTools in versatality would just invoke a snicker.
Work at some studios and gain a little more experiance before you go around touting Logic in such a fashion (it is a great program dont get me wrong)
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
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First, MIDI sucks. It's hard. MOTU sucks. It's hard. The whole USB replaces serial was annoying, MOTU's own boxes didn't want to work with DP, so I finally got a MIDIMan USB.
I would love Apple forever if they made iMIDI or iMusic.
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midi sucks? what do you mean ? why ?
about iMusic: that would be MicroLogic AV and a the midi interface MT4. Both emagic products. Plug-In your MidiMasterKeyboard and some "Tone Generator" and you can play music! You don't need apple for that.
Don't get me wrong: I think the aqusition of emagic is good for both companies
cheers
zero
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Go tell that to the thousands and thousands of engineers/producers/mixers working in digital studios who have used both programs. Excuse my terminology when i said "playing around". I've done about a dozen projects with my friend in his studio and done some serious work in Logic. For you to tell me or any of the people i mentioned before that Logic trumps ProTools in versatality would just invoke a snicker.
Work at some studios and gain a little more experiance before you go around touting Logic in such a fashion (it is a great program dont get me wrong)
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again: You obviously haven't used logic
And don't be such a baby. I'm conversing with you about the different aspects of audio software. You must have something to be insecure about if you get mad about a technical statement about software.
[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: giant ]
I had to take you're little smoker out.
[ 07-03-2002: Message edited by: giant ]</p>
I guess i was wrong on that one, but he is very happy after being an old school music maker. A die hard, not going to use a computer kind of guy. I wouldn't have told him to get Digital Performer if I thought it was second rate.
I meant it more from the cross platform side of things Logic and Protools were the top 2 for PC and Mac. Digital Performer was Mac only so I didn't mean to leave them out. My statement was aimed at cross platform choice.
<strong>Have to agree with giant on the never touched logic comment. Logic and Protools are pretty much the elite.....the rest are in a lower class.
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You left out Cubase, it also belongs in the elite class. :cool:
Steinberg is coming out with a cross-grade to CubaseSX for the disenfranchised PC Logic users.
<strong>... I wouldn't have told him to get Digital Performer if I thought it was second rate.
I meant it more from the cross platform side of things Logic and Protools were the top 2 for PC and Mac. Digital Performer was Mac only so I didn't mean to leave them out. My statement was aimed at cross platform choice.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Fair enough - but in the audio/MIDI sequencing world I am surprised that people aren't aware of MOTU's DP! It is used by countless US studio pros and, of course, many home users and is a top-end product as well.
Keyboard mag ran a sequencer shootout amongst the high end DAWs (within a reasonable budget - thus excluding ProTools) and MOTU came out very well. The competition did include Cubase and Logic as well. (Mind you, this was some time back and no sequencer comparison has since appeared).
Also, it is worth noting that DP 3.1 will include ProTools HD support I believe.
Emagic offers migration plan to existing Logic 5 Windows users
July 4th 2002
Emagic has always enjoyed a very close relationship with you, the users of our products - regardless of the platform you chose to use. We would like to take this opportunity to thank you very much for your continued loyalty. Together, we have developed Logic into one of the most powerful systems of its kind, and now that Emagic is a member of the Apple family, Logic will become even better. Obviously, the platform does matter now and we would like to cordially invite all Logic Windows users to join us on the Macintosh.
It goes without saying that we will continue to service and support all Logic Windows owners according to the standard product warranty policies beyond September, 30th 2002. The Logic 5.2 subrelease that we recently announced is a perfect example of our commitment to servicing every existing user.
In addition, for those users of Logic 5 on Windows who wish to enjoy all the current and future benefits of Logic running on the Mac platform, Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st. This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well. The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly. We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.
Stay tuned as the next chapter in the success story of Emagic unfolds. This will be a very exciting one.
<strong> Emagic will make a free cross-platform crossgrade available from August 1st. This free crossgrade offer will allow you to keep and use your current Logic 5 Windows version - Logic Audio 5, Gold 5 or Platinum 5 - on Macintosh as well. The offer will be available until December 31st 2002 for every registered Logic 5 Windows user, and details about how to apply will be released shortly. We would certainly be delighted to have you join us on the Mac.
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And thus apple's plan begins to take effect. Sure you can continue to use your version of Logic without any additional cost, just go buy yourself a mac first. Great move by apple.
<strong>I had this amazing idea last night. Apple should now buy Native instruments. They are the largest developer of VST plug-ins, not to mention that their stuff is by far industry leading. Cutting off this supply to windows users would probably generate more switchers to the Mac than logic alone. At the moment, you can switch to Cubase and still use all of this stuff. Take NativeInstruments away from them too, and suddenly the PC has lost a major chunk of audio-development for professionals.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Man..that would cause a PC Jihad.