Well, in my opinion the IM world is a divided mess of non-interoperable proprietary systems.
I have a hard time believing this fact will change soon. That is a shame because it holds IM back from becoming a mature communications platform like email or phone.
Worse than that: the very same is happening in the VoIP world. AS all these companies are connecting to the regular phonesystem but not to each other, this is actually splitting up the good old phone systems!
I fear there is no solution that apple can do against this besides introducing a system that is:
Oh yes please, I thing google tries to embrase atleast some standards and is bringing support for SIP. That would be the only wise way to go. What comes to IM, I really don't get why ICQ lost, they were the first and best ones and they invented all the good stuff. If I want to find someone/have lost my UIN# I go to ICQ.com and they can all be found there, but I never realized how on earth can you know that your friends MSN id is floverpower5886597745 @ hotmail.com? And don't even get me started with offline messages, so simple but still others don't implement it. AIM uses variant from same OSCAR protocol as ICQ, so it should have at least some of the features. With IM it's the same as every other microsoft products because they come bundled people use them, they get the job done, but never are they the best out there in feature wise. Unfortunately market penetration is the only thing that counts.
oh, well I stand corrected. So is AIM not available in Europe? I know it's AMERICA online, but I always figured it was open to other countries. My brother in Brazil uses it. I guess it would be weird if I used a program called Europe Online =/
As weir as it would be for you to use Europe Online, it will be for us here in Europe to use AMERICA online.
oh, well I stand corrected. So is AIM not available in Europe? I know it's AMERICA online, but I always figured it was open to other countries. My brother in Brazil uses it. I guess it would be weird if I used a program called Europe Online =/
AIM is available in Europe but it's not as popular as MSN, probably because you have to download it from AOL and AOL isn't as popular in Europe as in America, even after they got rid of 'America' in the AOL brandname here.
Here's some stats...
"The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February. MSN Messenger is also dominant in Latin America, reaching more than 90 percent of IM users, and in Europe and Asia Pacific, reaching more than 70 percent of IM users in each region. North America is the most competitive IM market, with MSN Messenger, AOL/Aim and Yahoo! Messenger each garnering between 27 percent and 37 percent of IM users in February."
??? I was just able to send a message to my cell phone and got back a reply. -- I don't have the phone set up to send messages so I didn't test iChats' ability to receive unannounced messages. (iChat 3.1.4/Tracfone)
I'm not sure any other free 'VoIP' clients are interoperable at this stage.
Gizmo will let you call other SIP providers networks although it's limited to using their own SIPPhone as a provider itself. You can't use it with a SIPGate or Vonage account for instance but you can dial them for free. The just added Asterisk support too so it's pretty good in an office environment. Fantastic software. Apple should get the Gizmo guys to fix iChat to use SIP.
X-Lite works with anyone but it's horrible, complex and doesn't often find it's way past firewalls.
Skype just works with itself. I think they're toast if they stick with that idea.
In the UK, many of the telecoms are really going for VoIP now. British Telecom are running adverts on TV for it and Orange are even giving away free VoIP routers, free calls to landlines and Orange mobiles off peak and free broadband.
I do hope Apple don't base a VoIP service on the USA and actually look outside at what's happening in Europe. The market is opening up here now so a closed VoIP service tied to .Mac would be stupid and nobody would use it.
More people use VoIP and IM in Europe than in America so they should take that on board. Knowing Apple though, they'll release a .Mac service that only works in the USA and gives you a US phone number that doesn't work with anyone else. \
Knowing Apple though, they'll release a .Mac service that only works in the USA and gives you a US phone number that doesn't work with anyone else. \
Exactly what I'm afraid of.
We need open standards here to be generally accepted before VoIP will really take on as a communication solution people can rely on to 'just work' (tm)
I guess it is available, but there is just nobody using it. Should they? (honest question - never tried it myself). I would estimate 95% of people doing IM here uses MSN, with the other 4,5% using google chat/skype chat because they hate the UI of MSN and the other 0,5% being geeks on jabber and such.
Yeah. It's known as AOL still, but they don't make a big deal about what it stands for.
I have an AIM account... but I use it with Adium and have a whole 2 contacts on it! It is correct that everyone uses MSN.
Sounds like feature creep to me. Is there ANYTHING that won't be rolled into the OS? I always think of the OS as PRIMARILY providing file management, memory management, task/application management, and I suppose peripheral device management; not GPS, VOIP, word processing, dish washing, etc., etc. I really have to think that one of the things strangling Vista is the HUGE number of "features" MS is rolling in - and then enabling and disabling the features for the various configurations of the OS.
Maybe I'm just living in the past and today's model is to tie the OS into as much as possible, and roll as many things into the OS as possible because a) it gives you bragging rights over the competition and b) it provides a system-wide framework for accessing all those features.
The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February.
North America is the most competitive IM market, with MSN Messenger, AOL/Aim and Yahoo! Messenger each garnering between 27 percent and 37 percent of IM users in February.
Why is Europe just giving the race away to MSN? There is more a chance it will become interoperable if they are close. If one is a clear leader (especially Microsoft) they won't ever share with anyone else.
Quote:
Sounds like feature creep to me. Is there ANYTHING that won't be rolled into the OS? I always think of the OS as PRIMARILY providing file management, memory management, task/application management, and I suppose peripheral device management; not GPS, VOIP, word processing, dish washing, etc., etc.
Apple's history so far seems to understand this. It doesn't seem they would integrate Mapping and GPS right into the OS itself. Safari, Mail, iChat, iCal, Address Book, etc are applications and not integrated into the OS.
But it would be great if Apple introduced Map and GPS applications that came with the OS.
well I guess that it's actually because no other IM client was really pushed here in Europe. Hotmail just came with messenger and soon everybody was using it.
But right now google chat is growing: it's hitchhiking on the succes of gmail now it is integrated into the gmail interface.
Why is Europe just giving the race away to MSN? There is more a chance it will become interoperable if they are close. If one is a clear leader (especially Microsoft) they won't ever share with anyone else.
Because it comes free with Windows and most people don't like 'America' On-Line in Europe. On Windows, it also does a heck more stuff than AIM does too or MSN on the Mac as well for that matter.
well I guess that it's actually because no other IM client was really pushed here in Europe. Hotmail just came with messenger and soon everybody was using it.
But right now google chat is growing: it's hitchhiking on the succes of gmail now it is integrated into the gmail interface.
I actually quite like it's minimalist style.
Just wanted to point out to everyone that you can use Google talk, i.e. gmail chat with iChat. Google talk uses the XMPP/Jabber protocol. See this link:
It's not MSN but hopefully it'll cheer up all you Europeans out there who can't use iChat...
8)
UPDATE:
It appears it is also possible to connect to msn users using jabber once you have an account (e.g. if you have a google talk account). Check out this wiki article:
Look down at the bottom in the Jabber ID section. I don't have time to try this out today or tomorrow, perhaps someone could try it out and let us know how it works....
Hopefully Apple will do for VOIP what it did for music and make an easy to use, slick software package. And to get said software mass distributed all they need to do is bundle it into the iTunes downloads. Then they can add the iPhone Wireless when the GSM phone is ready.
Comments
I have a hard time believing this fact will change soon. That is a shame because it holds IM back from becoming a mature communications platform like email or phone.
Worse than that: the very same is happening in the VoIP world. AS all these companies are connecting to the regular phonesystem but not to each other, this is actually splitting up the good old phone systems!
I fear there is no solution that apple can do against this besides introducing a system that is:
a. way better
b. completely non-proprietary
Originally posted by wmf
SIP! SIP! SIP!
Oh yes please, I thing google tries to embrase atleast some standards and is bringing support for SIP. That would be the only wise way to go. What comes to IM, I really don't get why ICQ lost, they were the first and best ones and they invented all the good stuff. If I want to find someone/have lost my UIN# I go to ICQ.com and they can all be found there, but I never realized how on earth can you know that your friends MSN id is floverpower5886597745 @ hotmail.com? And don't even get me started with offline messages, so simple but still others don't implement it. AIM uses variant from same OSCAR protocol as ICQ, so it should have at least some of the features. With IM it's the same as every other microsoft products because they come bundled people use them, they get the job done, but never are they the best out there in feature wise. Unfortunately market penetration is the only thing that counts.
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
oh, well I stand corrected. So is AIM not available in Europe? I know it's AMERICA online, but I always figured it was open to other countries. My brother in Brazil uses it. I guess it would be weird if I used a program called Europe Online =/
As weir as it would be for you to use Europe Online, it will be for us here in Europe to use AMERICA online.
Originally posted by DeaPeaJay
oh, well I stand corrected. So is AIM not available in Europe? I know it's AMERICA online, but I always figured it was open to other countries. My brother in Brazil uses it. I guess it would be weird if I used a program called Europe Online =/
AIM is available in Europe but it's not as popular as MSN, probably because you have to download it from AOL and AOL isn't as popular in Europe as in America, even after they got rid of 'America' in the AOL brandname here.
Here's some stats...
"The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February. MSN Messenger is also dominant in Latin America, reaching more than 90 percent of IM users, and in Europe and Asia Pacific, reaching more than 70 percent of IM users in each region. North America is the most competitive IM market, with MSN Messenger, AOL/Aim and Yahoo! Messenger each garnering between 27 percent and 37 percent of IM users in February."
http://www.comscore.com/press/release.asp?press=800
Originally posted by aresee
??? I was just able to send a message to my cell phone and got back a reply. -- I don't have the phone set up to send messages so I didn't test iChats' ability to receive unannounced messages. (iChat 3.1.4/Tracfone)
How did you do that ?
Originally posted by McDave
I'm not sure any other free 'VoIP' clients are interoperable at this stage.
Gizmo will let you call other SIP providers networks although it's limited to using their own SIPPhone as a provider itself. You can't use it with a SIPGate or Vonage account for instance but you can dial them for free. The just added Asterisk support too so it's pretty good in an office environment. Fantastic software. Apple should get the Gizmo guys to fix iChat to use SIP.
X-Lite works with anyone but it's horrible, complex and doesn't often find it's way past firewalls.
Skype just works with itself. I think they're toast if they stick with that idea.
In the UK, many of the telecoms are really going for VoIP now. British Telecom are running adverts on TV for it and Orange are even giving away free VoIP routers, free calls to landlines and Orange mobiles off peak and free broadband.
I do hope Apple don't base a VoIP service on the USA and actually look outside at what's happening in Europe. The market is opening up here now so a closed VoIP service tied to .Mac would be stupid and nobody would use it.
More people use VoIP and IM in Europe than in America so they should take that on board. Knowing Apple though, they'll release a .Mac service that only works in the USA and gives you a US phone number that doesn't work with anyone else.
Originally posted by aegisdesign
Knowing Apple though, they'll release a .Mac service that only works in the USA and gives you a US phone number that doesn't work with anyone else.
Exactly what I'm afraid of.
We need open standards here to be generally accepted before VoIP will really take on as a communication solution people can rely on to 'just work' (tm)
Originally posted by Harald
coughiPodpatentscough
ah harald -- always worth listening to what he has to say
Originally posted by hmurchison
Nah. "OS XI" just doesn't have the same visual appeal. Apple will likely rebrand OS X before hitting version 11
How would you pronounce that ? "
"Oh-essexy " ?
Originally posted by aegisdesign
How did you do that ?
Initiate a new chat and for the screenname, enter their cell number like this "+19195551234" (don't forget the 'plus'). Then type a message and bam.
Originally posted by Outsider
Initiate a new chat and for the screenname, enter their cell number like this "+19195551234" (don't forget the 'plus'). Then type a message and bam.
Make sure you initiate the chat by going to:
File -> New chat with person
Originally posted by dutch pear
I guess it is available, but there is just nobody using it. Should they? (honest question - never tried it myself). I would estimate 95% of people doing IM here uses MSN, with the other 4,5% using google chat/skype chat because they hate the UI of MSN and the other 0,5% being geeks on jabber and such.
Yeah. It's known as AOL still, but they don't make a big deal about what it stands for.
I have an AIM account... but I use it with Adium and have a whole 2 contacts on it! It is correct that everyone uses MSN.
Maybe I'm just living in the past and today's model is to tie the OS into as much as possible, and roll as many things into the OS as possible because a) it gives you bragging rights over the competition and b) it provides a system-wide framework for accessing all those features.
- Jasen.
The MSN Messenger application has the strongest penetration worldwide, with 61 percent of worldwide IM users utilizing the application in February.
North America is the most competitive IM market, with MSN Messenger, AOL/Aim and Yahoo! Messenger each garnering between 27 percent and 37 percent of IM users in February.
Why is Europe just giving the race away to MSN? There is more a chance it will become interoperable if they are close. If one is a clear leader (especially Microsoft) they won't ever share with anyone else.
Sounds like feature creep to me. Is there ANYTHING that won't be rolled into the OS? I always think of the OS as PRIMARILY providing file management, memory management, task/application management, and I suppose peripheral device management; not GPS, VOIP, word processing, dish washing, etc., etc.
Apple's history so far seems to understand this. It doesn't seem they would integrate Mapping and GPS right into the OS itself. Safari, Mail, iChat, iCal, Address Book, etc are applications and not integrated into the OS.
But it would be great if Apple introduced Map and GPS applications that came with the OS.
Originally posted by TenoBell
Why is Europe just giving the race away to MSN?
Uhh,, because we like it?
well I guess that it's actually because no other IM client was really pushed here in Europe. Hotmail just came with messenger and soon everybody was using it.
But right now google chat is growing: it's hitchhiking on the succes of gmail now it is integrated into the gmail interface.
I actually quite like it's minimalist style.
Originally posted by TenoBell
Why is Europe just giving the race away to MSN? There is more a chance it will become interoperable if they are close. If one is a clear leader (especially Microsoft) they won't ever share with anyone else.
Because it comes free with Windows and most people don't like 'America' On-Line in Europe. On Windows, it also does a heck more stuff than AIM does too or MSN on the Mac as well for that matter.
Originally posted by dutch pear
Uhh,, because we like it?
well I guess that it's actually because no other IM client was really pushed here in Europe. Hotmail just came with messenger and soon everybody was using it.
But right now google chat is growing: it's hitchhiking on the succes of gmail now it is integrated into the gmail interface.
I actually quite like it's minimalist style.
Just wanted to point out to everyone that you can use Google talk, i.e. gmail chat with iChat. Google talk uses the XMPP/Jabber protocol. See this link:
http://www.google.com/support/talk/b...y?answer=24076
It's not MSN but hopefully it'll cheer up all you Europeans out there who can't use iChat...
8)
UPDATE:
It appears it is also possible to connect to msn users using jabber once you have an account (e.g. if you have a google talk account). Check out this wiki article:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jabber
Look down at the bottom in the Jabber ID section. I don't have time to try this out today or tomorrow, perhaps someone could try it out and let us know how it works....
Originally posted by Corey
And to get said software mass distributed all they need to do is bundle it into the iTunes downloads.
Thereby giving many Windows users even more reason to hate Apple.
Bundling is teh evil.
Originally posted by meelash
[B]It's not MSN but hopefully it'll cheer up all you Europeans out there who can't use iChat...
It's not a matter of can't, more a matter of won't.