No, consumers think in terms of NEEDS. The guys' budget was such-and-such, so he NEEDED a computer that fit it. And for what he was doing (sound editing) he NEEDED a computer with expandability. Not so hard to understand, is it?
So your sage business advice to Apple.....
Offer a low cost desktop because some of your friends want expandability and don't have much money. If they are not offered said low cost desktop they will take their little bit of money and build a DIY box with stolen software. Which will deprive Apple of much needed revenue.
Apple should take this golden market research from such a coveted group of customers to develop, build, and market an entirely new desktop line.
Offer a low cost desktop because some of your friends want expandability and don't have much money.
More like, "There's a significant market out there that wants an expandable Mac that costs somewhat less than Fort Knox, Steve. Pretty please, it would help with marketshare some, especially with PC switchers, BTO fiends, gamers, and creative types."
Quote:
If they are not offered said low cost desktop they will take their little bit of money and build a DIY box with stolen software. Which will deprive Apple of much needed revenue.
Wow. You honestly hate the idea of an affordable expandable desktop Mac so much that you honestly believe that anyone who wants one is a criminal? That's hilarious. In a slightly scary way, of course.
C'mon Teno, say it with me: "Midrange expandable desktop Mac". It even sounds pretty as a phrase. And saying it aloud won't blot out the sun, or cause cats and dogs to cohabitate unnaturally. I promise.
Wow. You honestly hate the idea of an affordable expandable desktop Mac so much that you honestly believe that anyone who wants one is a criminal.
That's a pretty big leap.
I've actually written extensively on other threads about why Apple should make a midrange desktop. My reasoning is because of people who actually have money and will make real use of such a machine.
The Mac mini and $999 iMac would do more to attract new Mac users than a midrange desktop model. The midrange desktop would more take sales from people who would have bought the MacPro and $2000 iMac if the midrange was not available.
I don't think such a computer would help people who complain about cost, because such a computer would likely be around $1700 - $2000.
Instead of buying a PC comparable to the type of Mac he would like to buy he will build a DIY computer and a stolen copy of XP.
You honestly wonder why Apple would not put precious resources on the line to offer something for this type of person.
He's willing to pay extra to have a mac, just not as much as Apple asks him to.
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
So he's not building a corvette because the porshe is expensive. Apple sells a garage with a posche in it, he just needs the porsche. Why should he have to buy a garage? Sure, the garage matches the porsche's colors and is perfect for it, but he doesn't NEED a freakin garage!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
I do not understand this logic. Upgradability and money are mutually exclusive.
Upgradability is exponential. If you want a substantial boost in performance you gotta pay substantial money for it.
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
In a DIY machine, how much would it cost for such an upgrade? $150.
He is willing to pay MORE for the Apple product, but he can't afford ridiculous situations like that. Moreover, he doesn't feel like buying a new monitor after he's already spent $600 or so on the one he's got.
There's nothing unique about this situation! Stop being an apologist!
He's willing to pay extra to have a mac, just not as much as Apple asks him to.
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
An AMD that's as powerful as the most powerful Merom? Methinks there's an exaggeration somewhere. AMD's can be had cheap, but the Core 2's are creaming them in terms of performance. Unless you're Joe the Dragon.
Quote:
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
In a DIY machine, how much would it cost for such an upgrade? $150.
What idiot would upgrade from one mid-range card to another? The 5-10% boost in power isn't worth the $150. People that upgrade graphics cards fall into three categories:
A) People that bought a top of the line graphics card, and are upgrading to a new top of the line graphics card when it comes out.
People who bought a cheaper card, upgrading to a new top of the line graphics cards
C) Suckers.
Seriously. Not only is $2,124 not worth the performance increase in this case, but neither is $150.
The Mac mini and $999 iMac would do more to attract new Mac users than a midrange desktop model.
Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup? What could that shortcoming be? What could it possibly be? Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup? What could that shortcoming be? What could it possibly be? Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
Scene II
I have 5 top-end G5s in the studio that run faster than most of my guys can think. Sure there are processes that could be faster, but the thought that not only will I have to upgrade hardware, I will have to spend more to upgrade the applications as well. But hold it. Most of the apps we use are not yet udpdated for the new Macs.
Now let's see. Do I spend the money now and let my kids think Santa has left the planet or do I give them a good Christmas and a bonus to the staff.
O'yea, my wife is the controller. "You are going to invest in new machines to run old software that you have no idea how well it works or how much more productive is it or how much it will cost or… just so you can tell your buddies that we are 'hip!'
And now you tell me that we can't go to Hawaii for our holidays."
Scene II
"So my dear husband, you are telling me that we should get a MacPro for what? You are a consultant that you just needed that 'great' new laptop because you travel a lot and it could do everything that our older G5 could do better and faster but I won't be able to use it because it has all the business files on it and once you feel that all the old stuff is satisfactorily transferred to your new systems you will give it to me to replace my blueberry. No? What? You are going to give it to our son and I am getting his old Dell??!!!"
Scene III
"And you also want to get a 30" what?
Intermission
"Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup?" No.
And, "Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want?" Possibly. Or could it be that Apple isn't making the the kind of desktops that people don't need.
By the way, Apple's share of the desktop market is only falling in their own product line. At their combined computer sales growing at a rate in excess of 30%, I would say a lot of people are extremely happy. That is, except for my wife.
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
And you have no guarantee it will all work together and no warranty for the whole system. Most people do not want that, especially professional people.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
Why would you want to though? Both are perfectly adequate for the intended purpose.
And you'd have TWO iMacs then. Sell one of them on eBay. They hold their value extremely well.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
There's nothing unique about this situation! Stop being an apologist!
It's more unique than you think. Very rarely do either home users or professionals upgrade parts in systems and unless you're in the habit of upgrading every 6-12 months, most parts improve such that upgrading involves buying a load of other parts. eg. CPU sockets changing, memory technology changing, PCI->AGP->PCI-E....
In a couple of years your equipment is usually 'obsolete'.
Seriously. Not only is $2,124 not worth the performance increase in this case, but neither is $150.
Well I was TRYING to be nice to Apple.
The real situation is this: How do you upgrade an iMac from an x1600 to a x1900? Answer: YOU CAN'T!
In a DIY machine, you just buy the card, and put it in. With the ROM's out there, you can even buy a PC version, flash it, and put it in.
I was just using the 7600 as an example, but if you want to be all "well that's moot because nobody would ever even DO that" then fine, I'll point out that you can't pay ANY amount of money to get a top of the line video card in an iMac.
I try to be courteous but people focus on my examples, not my points.
And you have no guarantee it will all work together and no warranty for the whole system. Most people do not want that, especially professional people.
When was the last time a new PC had a hardware conflict?! I must have built hundreds of PCs, having it all "work together" is simply a matter of installing the drivers.
But I was just pointing out that DIY is a real option for savvy computer users who don't require a Mac.
I'm not saying Apple should compete with them on PRICE, I'm saying they should offer a $1000 iMac in a tower instead of attached to a monitor that not everyone needs. Make it a standard desktop! Even a small formfactor PC would do, but it'd be cheaper to do a tower.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Why would you want to though? Both are perfectly adequate for the intended purpose.
Uh, the 7600 was just an example, champ. Plus, "adequate" is hardly defined by you, it's defined by the customer.
If I really wanted to get mean, I'd point out that a top of the line card isn't even available in an iMac (as I did in another post) and therefore you can't upgrade to it for any amount of money.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
And you'd have TWO iMacs then. Sell one of them on eBay. They hold their value extremely well.
Wow, what an amazing hassel! I want to replace ONE simple component and I have to buy a new computer and sell my old one on e-bay!
Yeah, no WONDER people buy all-in-ones, they're so EASY!!
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
It's more unique than you think. Very rarely do either home users or professionals upgrade parts in systems and unless you're in the habit of upgrading every 6-12 months, most parts improve such that upgrading involves buying a load of other parts. eg. CPU sockets changing, memory technology changing, PCI->AGP->PCI-E....
That's a stretch. People upgrade their PC's all the time, especially computer users savvy enough to realize the advantages of a Mac over a PC (Mac users are usually more computer savvy).
Funny, last time I went to best buy, they had an entire aisle of graphics cards, and another aisle full of hard drives. I guess they're just there for show, right? nobody™ actually upgrades. they're probably all empty boxes
and are you saying PCIe is going obsolete any time soon? are you on the drugs?
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
By the way, Apple's share of the desktop market is only falling in their own product line. At their combined computer sales growing at a rate in excess of 30%, I would say a lot of people are extremely happy. Except for my wife, that is.
Congratulations on missing the point.
Do you think the huge increase in Apple's laptop market share is due to the kind of pros you refer to in your post, or other buyers? Of course there are pros who aren't buying Mac Pros yet because the software they need is not yet native. But the effect of these people is low (surely there must be people holding off on buying MacBook Pros for the same reason? And yet, laptop market share is still managing to go up).
No, the problem is not people waiting for software to be available. The problem is that Apple have no non-all-in-one between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. It is a massive gaping hole in their line-up and hopefully it will be filled at MacWorld in January.
On the other hand, maybe Apple feel that the desktop market is shrinking fast enough not to bother. We'll see.
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
Don't forget that it's laptop RAM too, therefore more expensive.
Do you think the huge increase in Apple's laptop market share is due to the kind of pros you refer to in your post, or other buyers? Of course there are pros who aren't buying Mac Pros yet because the software they need is not yet native. But the effect of these people is low (surely there must be people holding off on buying MacBook Pros for the same reason? And yet, laptop market share is still managing to go up).
No, the problem is not people waiting for software to be available. The problem is that Apple have no non-all-in-one between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. It is a massive gaping hole in their line-up and hopefully it will be filled at MacWorld in January.
On the other hand, maybe Apple feel that the desktop market is shrinking fast enough not to bother. We'll see.
Buddy, the whole computer market is shifting towards laptops. Just like Jobs predicted years ago.
Incidently, the desktop market includes the Mini, iMac and MacPro. Which for the majority, suffices. At $10 billion in the drawer, growing faster than anyone else and facing a significantly combined larger invested competition alone, the little guy, i.e., Apple, appears to be doing exactly what their market research indicates that they should.
And one thing that Steve understands quite well, build simplicity for the masses, build the best you can, and they will come.
Remember the adage, "The more choices you have, the longer it takes to make a decision." and the greater the chances that somebody will screw it up.
Buddy, the whole computer market is shifting towards laptops. Just like Jobs predicted years ago.
yes, I know that. I am having a slight tail-between-legs moment though, because I think I'm confusing two different recent reports. Does anyone have a link to the actual Gartner data that was released on Wednesday? I tried searching for it, but couldn't find it.
What I'm talking about is not that Apple's product mix, in terms of units sold, is becoming more and more tilted towards the laptop side. That's not a problem. What I am talking about is that Apple's share of the desktop segment of the whole computer industry is going down, whilst their share of laptops is going up*. If this is true, then it points to the fact that
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
the desktop market includes the Mini, iMac and MacPro. Which for the majority, suffices.
Is not true.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
At $10 billion in the drawer, growing faster than anyone else
This is completely beside the point. Yes, Apple is growing, yes they are doing phenomenally well overall. But that doesn't indicate one way or the other whether or not they could be doing a better job in the desktop space, or whether doing a better job would be worth it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Abster2core
And one thing that Steve understands quite well, build simplicity for the masses, build the best you can, and they will come.
Remember the adage, "The more choices you have, the longer it takes to make a decision." and the greater the chances that somebody will screw it up.
I understand the KISS concept perfectly. Apple's line-up is vastly less complex that its competitors, adding one more option to the line-up would hardly change this.
* but like I said, I'm confusing two different recent reports, so that might not actually be true.
Agree wholeheartedly with Mr H. How can desktop market share go up when Apple doesn't offer a mid range tower, which is the most commonly bought desk top system? I've said once and will say it again, this is the heart of the market. Apple can't avoid this forever. Perhaps when Quad core Xenons come out and can be put in the Mac Pro, Apple will intro a mid range tower. I think the mid range tower would hurt Mac Pro sales as much as iMac sales and perhaps this is what Appple fears as well. A dual Quad core Mac Pro should hopefully separate itself perfromance wise from a nice Conroe mid range system easing this concern.
When was the last time a new PC had a hardware conflict?! I must have built hundreds of PCs, having it all "work together" is simply a matter of installing the drivers.
That still does not guarantee that it will work. That's why businesses buy complete systems and not upgrade parts. It prevents situations when two manufacturers fight over which one is causing the incompatibility.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
Uh, the 7600 was just an example, champ. Plus, "adequate" is hardly defined by you, it's defined by the customer.
And most the world's customers buy PCs with considerably lesser graphics cards or no cards at all and are perfectly happy with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
If I really wanted to get mean, I'd point out that a top of the line card isn't even available in an iMac (as I did in another post) and therefore you can't upgrade to it for any amount of money.
You mean if you'd wanted to get silly. Who in their right mind is going to put a top of the line graphics card in a middle of the pack performance tower, never mind even an AIO?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
Wow, what an amazing hassel! I want to replace ONE simple component and I have to buy a new computer and sell my old one on e-bay!
No big deal. I do it all the time, or filter the older computers down to lesser needs or the kids.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
Yeah, no WONDER people buy all-in-ones, they're so EASY!!
Most people buy laptops. No real difference.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
That's a stretch. People upgrade their PC's all the time, especially computer users savvy enough to realize the advantages of a Mac over a PC (Mac users are usually more computer savvy).
I've worked in the computer industry for 20+ years now. First computer was an IBM PC-XT. Not once in 20 years has anyone from the IT dept came round an upgraded my machine with parts. It's always been a new computer every couple of years.
I've upgraded a couple myself but that's more because I've had old kit that could upgrade an even older computer. My SE/30 for instance is pimped out with 128MB of RAM and a 1.2GB hard drive because I had that spare.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
Funny, last time I went to best buy, they had an entire aisle of graphics cards, and another aisle full of hard drives. I guess they're just there for show, right? nobody? actually upgrades. they're probably all empty boxes
Very few are upgrades. Most are people building a new PC.
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
and are you saying PCIe is going obsolete any time soon? are you on the drugs?
Over time everything becomes obsolete. If you think PCIe won't be replaced with something better in 4 years time when you need a new card then it's not me on drugs.
I'm sure it'll still be around in some form but why would you want to put a modern card into a 4 year old motherboard or a 4 year old card into a modern motherboard?
Quote:
Originally Posted by slughead
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
When you spec an iMac, you can spec 1 1gb module or 2x512. They spec 2x512 so that the RAM runs at full speed. There is a reason. And I sell RAM on ebay all the time. If it's recent RAM you get about 2/3rds back at least.
Except for games a mini would do him better than a Powermac anyway. So here's the question for your friend. Why not buy a mini as well? The shortcomings of the mini are greatly reduced if you have a AMD gaming rig anyway and he gets the benefits of the audio stuff on OSX.
Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
No I've seen no evidence that a majority people want upgradable desktop towers. As someone mentioned towers are the only option given by most computer OEM's.
No one has been able to match Apple in creating an excellent AIO.
Quote:
What I am talking about is that Apple's share of the desktop segment of the whole computer industry is going down
Because Apple only competes in the midrange and high end market. You can only compare sales of Macs to sales of midrange and high end PC's. You cannot compare sales of Mac's to budget PC's. Of course by pure number more budget PC's are being sold.
Are the mini, iMac and MacPro selling comparatively less than desktop PC's of equivalent functionality and price? I've seen no report that says this is true.
Agree wholeheartedly with Mr H. How can desktop market share go up when Apple doesn't offer a mid range tower, which is the most commonly bought desk top system? I've said once and will say it again, this is the heart of the market. Apple can't avoid this forever. Perhaps when Quad core Xenons come out and can be put in the Mac Pro, Apple will intro a mid range tower. I think the mid range tower would hurt Mac Pro sales as much as iMac sales and perhaps this is what Appple fears as well. A dual Quad core Mac Pro should hopefully separate itself perfromance wise from a nice Conroe mid range system easing this concern.
Simple math
If Apple could make money configuring a low-end tower safely, and without cannibalizing its own products, it would.
The Mac works as well as it does, because it is in the best controlled environment that they can make it. Leaving the door open to let everybody in is not Apple's way of doing things. Apple is at this moment is more than satisfied to produce high quality equipment, an unsurpassed OS to run it, and powerful software to use on it, is their guarantee to keep Apple at the top of the ladder when it comes to service and support.
No matter what is said in these forums, Apple does take notice. Jobs declared years ago that the laptop was the way of the future. Soon after, his predications appeared to be true, until… And so because of the inadequacies of the processor, he switched. A move that many, including some of you here, predicted the spell of death for Apple.
Well, it proves that he may have been right all along. The whole computing world market is shifting to laptops. The only significant caveat is the iMac (which by the way is labelled by Apple as a desktop). Which, because of its screen size has now offered a new paradigm to consider.
For years, (remember the Radius (built by former Mac guys)), Apple has given us the one thing that everyone just took for granted. Bigger, more beautiful screens. With the ability to hook up or come with one of these babies, it is now harder to press going for a tower of any sort.
Now we can have the best of both worlds. Mobility. Power. Big Screen. And unless you are stuck in an office all day designing, video editing, photo manipulation, etc., the tower is the last thing that I would consider, especially if I am the boss and I don't want my staff hauling my equipment around town with them.
Remember the adage, "a rose by any other name is still a rose." So if I were to stuff a Mini or iMac in a 5 inch brief case and turn it on its end, I would get a tower.
Consider for the moment Apple's current line of desktops.
Mini 1.66 $599 to $1148
Mini .183 $799 to $1298
iMac 17" 1.83 $999 to $1327 (Sorry, big beautiful screen included)
iMac 17" 2.0 $1199 to $2373 (Sorry, big beautiful screen included)
iMac 24" 2.16 $1999 to $3373 (Sorry, whopping big beautiful screen included)
MacPro $2124 to $14227
I asked this question before. At what configuration and price would one propose for your mid range tower that would suffice this great market segment that Apple is missing on. With the proviso, i.e., you can guarantee, that it can be serviced & supported by Al, even though the back door has been removed–just so that you can Tim Allen it to your hearts content.
Because Apple only competes in the midrange and high end market. You can only compare sales of Macs to sales of midrange and high end PC's. You cannot compare sales of Mac's to budget PC's. Of course by pure number more budget PC's are being sold.
Are the mini, iMac and MacPro selling comparatively less than desktop PC's of equivalent functionality and price? I've seen no report that says this is true.
You do realise that you've just pretty much agreed with me? That's my whole point - Apple only compete in certain market segments (I'd disagree about the "mid-range" bit though, as they don't have a mid-range tower), the market is moving away from the segments that Apple does compete in, which is resulting in a decreasing desktop market share. If they keep on making the machines they currently make, and add one more config - a mid-range tower - they will then be fully competing in the mid-range space and their desktop market share will go up.
Comments
No, consumers think in terms of NEEDS. The guys' budget was such-and-such, so he NEEDED a computer that fit it. And for what he was doing (sound editing) he NEEDED a computer with expandability. Not so hard to understand, is it?
So your sage business advice to Apple.....
Offer a low cost desktop because some of your friends want expandability and don't have much money. If they are not offered said low cost desktop they will take their little bit of money and build a DIY box with stolen software. Which will deprive Apple of much needed revenue.
Apple should take this golden market research from such a coveted group of customers to develop, build, and market an entirely new desktop line.
Sounds like a winning plan.
So your sage business advice to Apple.....
Offer a low cost desktop because some of your friends want expandability and don't have much money.
More like, "There's a significant market out there that wants an expandable Mac that costs somewhat less than Fort Knox, Steve. Pretty please, it would help with marketshare some, especially with PC switchers, BTO fiends, gamers, and creative types."
If they are not offered said low cost desktop they will take their little bit of money and build a DIY box with stolen software. Which will deprive Apple of much needed revenue.
Wow. You honestly hate the idea of an affordable expandable desktop Mac so much that you honestly believe that anyone who wants one is a criminal? That's hilarious. In a slightly scary way, of course.
C'mon Teno, say it with me: "Midrange expandable desktop Mac". It even sounds pretty as a phrase. And saying it aloud won't blot out the sun, or cause cats and dogs to cohabitate unnaturally. I promise.
.
Wow. You honestly hate the idea of an affordable expandable desktop Mac so much that you honestly believe that anyone who wants one is a criminal.
That's a pretty big leap.
I've actually written extensively on other threads about why Apple should make a midrange desktop. My reasoning is because of people who actually have money and will make real use of such a machine.
The Mac mini and $999 iMac would do more to attract new Mac users than a midrange desktop model. The midrange desktop would more take sales from people who would have bought the MacPro and $2000 iMac if the midrange was not available.
I don't think such a computer would help people who complain about cost, because such a computer would likely be around $1700 - $2000.
Instead of buying a PC comparable to the type of Mac he would like to buy he will build a DIY computer and a stolen copy of XP.
You honestly wonder why Apple would not put precious resources on the line to offer something for this type of person.
He's willing to pay extra to have a mac, just not as much as Apple asks him to.
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
So he's not building a corvette because the porshe is expensive. Apple sells a garage with a posche in it, he just needs the porsche. Why should he have to buy a garage? Sure, the garage matches the porsche's colors and is perfect for it, but he doesn't NEED a freakin garage!!
I do not understand this logic. Upgradability and money are mutually exclusive.
Upgradability is exponential. If you want a substantial boost in performance you gotta pay substantial money for it.
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
In a DIY machine, how much would it cost for such an upgrade? $150.
He is willing to pay MORE for the Apple product, but he can't afford ridiculous situations like that. Moreover, he doesn't feel like buying a new monitor after he's already spent $600 or so on the one he's got.
There's nothing unique about this situation! Stop being an apologist!
He's willing to pay extra to have a mac, just not as much as Apple asks him to.
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
An AMD that's as powerful as the most powerful Merom? Methinks there's an exaggeration somewhere. AMD's can be had cheap, but the Core 2's are creaming them in terms of performance. Unless you're Joe the Dragon.
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
In a DIY machine, how much would it cost for such an upgrade? $150.
What idiot would upgrade from one mid-range card to another? The 5-10% boost in power isn't worth the $150. People that upgrade graphics cards fall into three categories:
A) People that bought a top of the line graphics card, and are upgrading to a new top of the line graphics card when it comes out.
C) Suckers.
Seriously. Not only is $2,124 not worth the performance increase in this case, but neither is $150.
The Mac mini and $999 iMac would do more to attract new Mac users than a midrange desktop model.
Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup? What could that shortcoming be? What could it possibly be? Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup? What could that shortcoming be? What could it possibly be? Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
Scene II
I have 5 top-end G5s in the studio that run faster than most of my guys can think. Sure there are processes that could be faster, but the thought that not only will I have to upgrade hardware, I will have to spend more to upgrade the applications as well. But hold it. Most of the apps we use are not yet udpdated for the new Macs.
Now let's see. Do I spend the money now and let my kids think Santa has left the planet or do I give them a good Christmas and a bonus to the staff.
O'yea, my wife is the controller. "You are going to invest in new machines to run old software that you have no idea how well it works or how much more productive is it or how much it will cost or… just so you can tell your buddies that we are 'hip!'
And now you tell me that we can't go to Hawaii for our holidays."
Scene II
"So my dear husband, you are telling me that we should get a MacPro for what? You are a consultant that you just needed that 'great' new laptop because you travel a lot and it could do everything that our older G5 could do better and faster but I won't be able to use it because it has all the business files on it and once you feel that all the old stuff is satisfactorily transferred to your new systems you will give it to me to replace my blueberry. No? What? You are going to give it to our son and I am getting his old Dell??!!!"
Scene III
"And you also want to get a 30" what?
Intermission
"Don't you think that the fact that Apple's share of the desktop market is falling whilst their share of the laptop market is rising rapidly points to a serious shortcoming in Apple's desktop lineup?" No.
And, "Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want?" Possibly. Or could it be that Apple isn't making the the kind of desktops that people don't need.
By the way, Apple's share of the desktop market is only falling in their own product line. At their combined computer sales growing at a rate in excess of 30%, I would say a lot of people are extremely happy. That is, except for my wife.
Epilog:
"A quad what…?"
Building your own PC is easy (1 hour including windows install time, plus 30 minutes of automated updates) and saves about 40% off dell or Apple (except in the case of the mac pro).
He's building an AMD system with about as much power as the 20" iMac and it'll probably cost him 60% less.
And you have no guarantee it will all work together and no warranty for the whole system. Most people do not want that, especially professional people.
Hey, how much does it cost to upgrade the video card in a 20" iMac from the x1600 to the 7600? Answer: $2,124. Why? You have to buy a whole new machine PLUS a monitor which you didn't even want just to get a better video card!
Why would you want to though? Both are perfectly adequate for the intended purpose.
And you'd have TWO iMacs then. Sell one of them on eBay. They hold their value extremely well.
There's nothing unique about this situation! Stop being an apologist!
It's more unique than you think. Very rarely do either home users or professionals upgrade parts in systems and unless you're in the habit of upgrading every 6-12 months, most parts improve such that upgrading involves buying a load of other parts. eg. CPU sockets changing, memory technology changing, PCI->AGP->PCI-E....
In a couple of years your equipment is usually 'obsolete'.
Seriously. Not only is $2,124 not worth the performance increase in this case, but neither is $150.
Well I was TRYING to be nice to Apple.
The real situation is this: How do you upgrade an iMac from an x1600 to a x1900? Answer: YOU CAN'T!
In a DIY machine, you just buy the card, and put it in. With the ROM's out there, you can even buy a PC version, flash it, and put it in.
I was just using the 7600 as an example, but if you want to be all "well that's moot because nobody would ever even DO that" then fine, I'll point out that you can't pay ANY amount of money to get a top of the line video card in an iMac.
I try to be courteous but people focus on my examples, not my points.
And you have no guarantee it will all work together and no warranty for the whole system. Most people do not want that, especially professional people.
When was the last time a new PC had a hardware conflict?! I must have built hundreds of PCs, having it all "work together" is simply a matter of installing the drivers.
But I was just pointing out that DIY is a real option for savvy computer users who don't require a Mac.
I'm not saying Apple should compete with them on PRICE, I'm saying they should offer a $1000 iMac in a tower instead of attached to a monitor that not everyone needs. Make it a standard desktop! Even a small formfactor PC would do, but it'd be cheaper to do a tower.
Why would you want to though? Both are perfectly adequate for the intended purpose.
Uh, the 7600 was just an example, champ. Plus, "adequate" is hardly defined by you, it's defined by the customer.
If I really wanted to get mean, I'd point out that a top of the line card isn't even available in an iMac (as I did in another post) and therefore you can't upgrade to it for any amount of money.
And you'd have TWO iMacs then. Sell one of them on eBay. They hold their value extremely well.
Wow, what an amazing hassel! I want to replace ONE simple component and I have to buy a new computer and sell my old one on e-bay!
Yeah, no WONDER people buy all-in-ones, they're so EASY!!
It's more unique than you think. Very rarely do either home users or professionals upgrade parts in systems and unless you're in the habit of upgrading every 6-12 months, most parts improve such that upgrading involves buying a load of other parts. eg. CPU sockets changing, memory technology changing, PCI->AGP->PCI-E....
That's a stretch. People upgrade their PC's all the time, especially computer users savvy enough to realize the advantages of a Mac over a PC (Mac users are usually more computer savvy).
Funny, last time I went to best buy, they had an entire aisle of graphics cards, and another aisle full of hard drives. I guess they're just there for show, right? nobody™ actually upgrades. they're probably all empty boxes
and are you saying PCIe is going obsolete any time soon? are you on the drugs?
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
By the way, Apple's share of the desktop market is only falling in their own product line. At their combined computer sales growing at a rate in excess of 30%, I would say a lot of people are extremely happy. Except for my wife, that is.
Congratulations on missing the point.
Do you think the huge increase in Apple's laptop market share is due to the kind of pros you refer to in your post, or other buyers? Of course there are pros who aren't buying Mac Pros yet because the software they need is not yet native. But the effect of these people is low (surely there must be people holding off on buying MacBook Pros for the same reason? And yet, laptop market share is still managing to go up).
No, the problem is not people waiting for software to be available. The problem is that Apple have no non-all-in-one between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. It is a massive gaping hole in their line-up and hopefully it will be filled at MacWorld in January.
On the other hand, maybe Apple feel that the desktop market is shrinking fast enough not to bother. We'll see.
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
Don't forget that it's laptop RAM too, therefore more expensive.
Congratulations on missing the point.
Do you think the huge increase in Apple's laptop market share is due to the kind of pros you refer to in your post, or other buyers? Of course there are pros who aren't buying Mac Pros yet because the software they need is not yet native. But the effect of these people is low (surely there must be people holding off on buying MacBook Pros for the same reason? And yet, laptop market share is still managing to go up).
No, the problem is not people waiting for software to be available. The problem is that Apple have no non-all-in-one between the Mac Mini and the Mac Pro. It is a massive gaping hole in their line-up and hopefully it will be filled at MacWorld in January.
On the other hand, maybe Apple feel that the desktop market is shrinking fast enough not to bother. We'll see.
Buddy, the whole computer market is shifting towards laptops. Just like Jobs predicted years ago.
Incidently, the desktop market includes the Mini, iMac and MacPro. Which for the majority, suffices. At $10 billion in the drawer, growing faster than anyone else and facing a significantly combined larger invested competition alone, the little guy, i.e., Apple, appears to be doing exactly what their market research indicates that they should.
And one thing that Steve understands quite well, build simplicity for the masses, build the best you can, and they will come.
Remember the adage, "The more choices you have, the longer it takes to make a decision." and the greater the chances that somebody will screw it up.
Buddy, the whole computer market is shifting towards laptops. Just like Jobs predicted years ago.
What I'm talking about is not that Apple's product mix, in terms of units sold, is becoming more and more tilted towards the laptop side. That's not a problem. What I am talking about is that Apple's share of the desktop segment of the whole computer industry is going down, whilst their share of laptops is going up*. If this is true, then it points to the fact that
the desktop market includes the Mini, iMac and MacPro. Which for the majority, suffices.
Is not true.
At $10 billion in the drawer, growing faster than anyone else
This is completely beside the point. Yes, Apple is growing, yes they are doing phenomenally well overall. But that doesn't indicate one way or the other whether or not they could be doing a better job in the desktop space, or whether doing a better job would be worth it.
And one thing that Steve understands quite well, build simplicity for the masses, build the best you can, and they will come.
Remember the adage, "The more choices you have, the longer it takes to make a decision." and the greater the chances that somebody will screw it up.
I understand the KISS concept perfectly. Apple's line-up is vastly less complex that its competitors, adding one more option to the line-up would hardly change this.
* but like I said, I'm confusing two different recent reports, so that might not actually be true.
When was the last time a new PC had a hardware conflict?! I must have built hundreds of PCs, having it all "work together" is simply a matter of installing the drivers.
That still does not guarantee that it will work. That's why businesses buy complete systems and not upgrade parts. It prevents situations when two manufacturers fight over which one is causing the incompatibility.
Uh, the 7600 was just an example, champ. Plus, "adequate" is hardly defined by you, it's defined by the customer.
And most the world's customers buy PCs with considerably lesser graphics cards or no cards at all and are perfectly happy with them.
If I really wanted to get mean, I'd point out that a top of the line card isn't even available in an iMac (as I did in another post) and therefore you can't upgrade to it for any amount of money.
You mean if you'd wanted to get silly. Who in their right mind is going to put a top of the line graphics card in a middle of the pack performance tower, never mind even an AIO?
Wow, what an amazing hassel! I want to replace ONE simple component and I have to buy a new computer and sell my old one on e-bay!
No big deal. I do it all the time, or filter the older computers down to lesser needs or the kids.
Yeah, no WONDER people buy all-in-ones, they're so EASY!!
Most people buy laptops. No real difference.
That's a stretch. People upgrade their PC's all the time, especially computer users savvy enough to realize the advantages of a Mac over a PC (Mac users are usually more computer savvy).
I've worked in the computer industry for 20+ years now. First computer was an IBM PC-XT. Not once in 20 years has anyone from the IT dept came round an upgraded my machine with parts. It's always been a new computer every couple of years.
I've upgraded a couple myself but that's more because I've had old kit that could upgrade an even older computer. My SE/30 for instance is pimped out with 128MB of RAM and a 1.2GB hard drive because I had that spare.
Funny, last time I went to best buy, they had an entire aisle of graphics cards, and another aisle full of hard drives. I guess they're just there for show, right? nobody? actually upgrades. they're probably all empty boxes
Very few are upgrades. Most are people building a new PC.
and are you saying PCIe is going obsolete any time soon? are you on the drugs?
Over time everything becomes obsolete. If you think PCIe won't be replaced with something better in 4 years time when you need a new card then it's not me on drugs.
I'm sure it'll still be around in some form but why would you want to put a modern card into a 4 year old motherboard or a 4 year old card into a modern motherboard?
What about RAM? the iMac's two RAM slots mean that if you want to go from the standard 2x512 to say two gigs, you have to toss both of the chips! Oh, I suppose you sell those on e-bay too, right?
When you spec an iMac, you can spec 1 1gb module or 2x512. They spec 2x512 so that the RAM runs at full speed. There is a reason. And I sell RAM on ebay all the time. If it's recent RAM you get about 2/3rds back at least.
Really, it's no big deal.
http://www.gainsaver.com/bNetStore/T...17975&Param5=0
Except for games a mini would do him better than a Powermac anyway. So here's the question for your friend. Why not buy a mini as well? The shortcomings of the mini are greatly reduced if you have a AMD gaming rig anyway and he gets the benefits of the audio stuff on OSX.
Vinea
Could it be that Apple aren't making the kind of desktops that people want? I wonder…
No I've seen no evidence that a majority people want upgradable desktop towers. As someone mentioned towers are the only option given by most computer OEM's.
No one has been able to match Apple in creating an excellent AIO.
What I am talking about is that Apple's share of the desktop segment of the whole computer industry is going down
Because Apple only competes in the midrange and high end market. You can only compare sales of Macs to sales of midrange and high end PC's. You cannot compare sales of Mac's to budget PC's. Of course by pure number more budget PC's are being sold.
Are the mini, iMac and MacPro selling comparatively less than desktop PC's of equivalent functionality and price? I've seen no report that says this is true.
Agree wholeheartedly with Mr H. How can desktop market share go up when Apple doesn't offer a mid range tower, which is the most commonly bought desk top system? I've said once and will say it again, this is the heart of the market. Apple can't avoid this forever. Perhaps when Quad core Xenons come out and can be put in the Mac Pro, Apple will intro a mid range tower. I think the mid range tower would hurt Mac Pro sales as much as iMac sales and perhaps this is what Appple fears as well. A dual Quad core Mac Pro should hopefully separate itself perfromance wise from a nice Conroe mid range system easing this concern.
Simple math
If Apple could make money configuring a low-end tower safely, and without cannibalizing its own products, it would.
The Mac works as well as it does, because it is in the best controlled environment that they can make it. Leaving the door open to let everybody in is not Apple's way of doing things. Apple is at this moment is more than satisfied to produce high quality equipment, an unsurpassed OS to run it, and powerful software to use on it, is their guarantee to keep Apple at the top of the ladder when it comes to service and support.
No matter what is said in these forums, Apple does take notice. Jobs declared years ago that the laptop was the way of the future. Soon after, his predications appeared to be true, until… And so because of the inadequacies of the processor, he switched. A move that many, including some of you here, predicted the spell of death for Apple.
Well, it proves that he may have been right all along. The whole computing world market is shifting to laptops. The only significant caveat is the iMac (which by the way is labelled by Apple as a desktop). Which, because of its screen size has now offered a new paradigm to consider.
For years, (remember the Radius (built by former Mac guys)), Apple has given us the one thing that everyone just took for granted. Bigger, more beautiful screens. With the ability to hook up or come with one of these babies, it is now harder to press going for a tower of any sort.
Now we can have the best of both worlds. Mobility. Power. Big Screen. And unless you are stuck in an office all day designing, video editing, photo manipulation, etc., the tower is the last thing that I would consider, especially if I am the boss and I don't want my staff hauling my equipment around town with them.
Remember the adage, "a rose by any other name is still a rose." So if I were to stuff a Mini or iMac in a 5 inch brief case and turn it on its end, I would get a tower.
Consider for the moment Apple's current line of desktops.
Mini 1.66 $599 to $1148
Mini .183 $799 to $1298
iMac 17" 1.83 $999 to $1327 (Sorry, big beautiful screen included)
iMac 17" 2.0 $1199 to $2373 (Sorry, big beautiful screen included)
iMac 20" 2.16 $1499 to $2923 (Sorry, bigger beautiful screen included)
iMac 24" 2.16 $1999 to $3373 (Sorry, whopping big beautiful screen included)
MacPro $2124 to $14227
I asked this question before. At what configuration and price would one propose for your mid range tower that would suffice this great market segment that Apple is missing on. With the proviso, i.e., you can guarantee, that it can be serviced & supported by Al, even though the back door has been removed–just so that you can Tim Allen it to your hearts content.
Because Apple only competes in the midrange and high end market. You can only compare sales of Macs to sales of midrange and high end PC's. You cannot compare sales of Mac's to budget PC's. Of course by pure number more budget PC's are being sold.
Are the mini, iMac and MacPro selling comparatively less than desktop PC's of equivalent functionality and price? I've seen no report that says this is true.
Quick! Start back-peddling now…