NPD says its weekly POS data is culled from a selective set of retailers that are part of its monthly panel, meaning it does not take into effect digital media player sales at Apple's own retail stores, among others.
Based on the above statement, the report is purely garbage.
No it is not garbage. It is usefull to know what the retail shares are. It is definetly not garbage to apple who would like to maintain a specific retail share vs online share (otherwise, why even bother selling retail?).
Just because the numbers are not all inclusive does not make them irrelevant.
Zune has now drifted back down to 75th on Amazon, so it appears that after a very brief period of "cool, it's got wireless!", followed by a merely brief period of "it's OK, I guess, if you really don't like Apple or iPods", Zune has settled into its actual position (for this Christmas, anyway): "meh".
I don't discount MS's ability to improve and extend the platform, but first impressions are hard to shake. I think they made a mistake rushing to get something out in time for Christmas, probably assuming that it would be "good enough". Instead, there's a lot of talk about incompatibility, flakey software, and how the wireless isn't nearly as nice as you might imagine at first blush.
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
according to news, zune has only 2.1% market share. it's now 5th in rank. Sandisk is 2nd again. game over.
Tied with.... the Walt Disney Corp.
Sandisk's rank tells you something about the wisdom of making your first and only offer hard drive based-- Sandisk doesn't even make a player over 8 GB. On account of being, um , sans discs.
Although I'm not sure what to make of the articles talk of Sandisk doing "50% price reductions" during Christmas to steal market share. Looking at their website, their players seem to be priced right in line with Apple's flash players. I wonder what the appeal is.
I'm guessing their product shipments are heavily skewed toward their 1 GB and below models, which are priced like the shuffle but have displays.
according to news, zune has only 2.1% market share. it's now 5th in rank. Sandisk is 2nd again. game over.
It's too soon to say, but such a quick drop is not a good thing. If it continues to stay low, then it's up to Microsoft whether it will be another Ultimate TV or another Windows Mobile.
The Zune has already fizzled out for now. No one is talking about it, I haven't seen one yet, and another key thing, even if a kid knows about it, parents certainly don't, and it won't be on the shopping list for the holidays this year.
Zune has now drifted back down to 75th on Amazon, so it appears that after a very brief period of "cool, it's got wireless!", followed by a merely brief period of "it's OK, I guess, if you really don't like Apple or iPods", Zune has settled into its actual position (for this Christmas, anyway): "meh".
I don't discount MS's ability to improve and extend the platform, but first impressions are hard to shake. I think they made a mistake rushing to get something out in time for Christmas, probably assuming that it would be "good enough". Instead, there's a lot of talk about incompatibility, flakey software, and how the wireless isn't nearly as nice as you might imagine at first blush.
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
I'm not sure it was a mistake on their part. They aren't in the position Apple was in back then.
When Apple first approached the music companies, there was no successful download store, or MP3 player associated with one.
Apple could dictate some of the terms because the companies were skeptical that it would work at all. So they granted him wide latitude.
But, at the same time, the did force DRM upon the product.
At this time, Apple is in the drivers seat, so to speak, and MS is coming from nowhere. Apple has 75% of the business, and Zune had none. The music companies, which are now not so happy with Apple, and its pricing, or DRM, simply told MS what they were willing to do to allow MS to come out with their product.
MS likely had very little say in the matter.
Just like Apple before them, they would prefer to set all of their own standards, but couldn't.
I'm not sure it was a mistake on their part. They aren't in the position Apple was in back then.
When Apple first approached the music companies, there was no successful download store, or MP3 player associated with one.
Apple could dictate some of the terms because the companies were skeptical that it would work at all. So they granted him wide latitude.
But, at the same time, the did force DRM upon the product.
At this time, Apple is in the drivers seat, so to speak, and MS is coming from nowhere. Apple has 75% of the business, and Zune had none. The music companies, which are now not so happy with Apple, and its pricing, or DRM, simply told MS what they were willing to do to allow MS to come out with their product.
MS likely had very little say in the matter.
Just like Apple before them, they would prefer to set all of their own standards, but couldn't.
UH, right, which is why I said
Quote:
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
At any rate, on the particular point of copy control on user generated files, I'm guessing MS didn't even try that hard. Doesn't it seem likely that MS approached the labels explicitly emphasizing their willingness to "work with" the industry, unlike that bastard Steve Jobs and his arrogant high-handedness?
Just seems like a no-brainer: "We will help you break the choke hold that Jobs has got you in. We know you hate it, just tell us what you want and we'll throw the might of MS behind the push and you can get a partner that understands how business is done, instead of some damn hippy who thinks he's all that".
So when it comes to something like "copy protection on everything wireless" does MS suddenly stand up and say "oh, hell no, the kids won't stand for it- lets work out a solution that protects your assets but allows some flexibility"?
I'm guessing not, because copy protection at that level is so completely unnecessary, if you're willing to spend a little time engineering a solution. I think I read somewhere that the official explanation is that "there is no way to distinguish between copyrighted and non-copyrighted material", but we know that is nonsense. It's just that it's the easiest solution, and the one that takes the least time to explain to the suits.
At any rate, on the particular point of copy control on user generated files, I'm guessing MS didn't even try that hard. Doesn't it seem likely that MS approached the labels explicitly emphasizing their willingness to "work with" the industry, unlike that bastard Steve Jobs and his arrogant high-handedness?
I imagine that Jobs approached the industry the same way. There wasn't any word of the industry being unhappy with Apple when the deal was first done. Just now, that Apple controls the downloads. Can't blame the industry for being nervous about that.
Quote:
Just seems like a no-brainer: "We will help you break the choke hold that Jobs has got you in. We know you hate it, just tell us what you want and we'll throw the might of MS behind the push and you can get a partner that understands how business is done, instead of some damn hippy who thinks he's all that".
Oh, I'm sure that there was at least the implication of that. I don't know if it was actually said out loud. If so, MS didn't get the best deal out of it.
Quote:
So when it comes to something like "copy protection on everything wireless" does MS suddenly stand up and say "oh, hell no, the kids won't stand for it- lets work out a solution that protects your assets but allows some flexibility"?
It's been said in articles, and I said it too, that MS has no power in the music download area. They only have a bad history with their "Plays For Sure" software and marketing. They would not likely have had the persuasivie abilities that Jobs had when the industry was swinging in the wind with internat sales. If they hit MS with too much , they wouldn't have lost sales at all, just some possible control, and what's to say that they trust MS all that much?
Quote:
I'm guessing not, because copy protection at that level is so completely unnecessary, if you're willing to spend a little time engineering a solution. I think I read somewhere that the official explanation is that "there is no way to distinguish between copyrighted and non-copyrighted material", but we know that is nonsense. It's just that it's the easiest solution, and the one that takes the least time to explain to the suits.
I don't know if they can tell the difference, but you are right in that what was done was the easiest solution.
Actually, this is good for Apple.
If they can tell the difference, and it was the easiest solution, then Apple can do their own solution that will put this one to shame. Apple doesn't shy away from doing what is hard, even if it takes longer. MS might have been time limited in needing to have product for this holiday season.
We just have to hope that whatever MS and the industry have done together has locked it in stone for them.
If they can tell the difference, and it was the easiest solution, then Apple can do their own solution that will put this one to shame. Apple doesn't shy away from doing what is hard, even if it takes longer. MS might have been time limited in needing to have product for this holiday season.
We just have to hope that whatever MS and the industry have done together has locked it in stone for them.
Exactly. I think Apple can go that extra mile, and do the spade work to make it palatable to the industry (of course bearing in mind that they have much more leverage to have some say in what is "palatable" than MS, at this point).
The dynamic that market share gives Apple-- "we're going to figure out what the best experience for the consumer is, and what works best for Apple (not necessarily in that order but not necessarily mutually exclusive) and then twist the industry's arm to implement it" gives them an a great position to maintain dominance with the iPod.
I think the Zune demonstrates that even if a rival has good ideas they may not be in a position to fully implement them. Of course, if the industry were smart, they would pick a rival to Apple and grant them all kinds of leeway and easing of restrictions, in order to improve the chances of creating some competition and to have the opportunity to play one vendor off of another to get what they want.
I think the Zune demonstrates that even if a rival has good ideas they may not be in a position to fully implement them. Of course, if the industry were smart, they would pick a rival to Apple and grant them all kinds of leeway and easing of restrictions, in order to improve the chances of creating some competition and to have the opportunity to play one vendor off of another to get what they want.
But smart they are not.
I don't think the Zune had any really good ideas, and the industry yeah, is dumb. For consumers time and time again Microsoft has not really had good outstanding ideas. Profitable and coherent ones anyway, instead of flashy gimmicks and just reaming cash up the consumer's rear hole. Call me an Apple zealot, but really, at this stage, only Apple *gets* it. Consumer/Enthusiast wise. Rivals better think about this long and hard, and the content owner industry better wake the FRACK UP and stop fighting Apple and instead *working with* Apple for leveraging their content into an expanding, profitable, and cutting edge arena. ...HD content alone offers a lot of upsell for developed nations and a huge market for re-selling their existing content. SD and music content, easier and almost faster, almost more convenient, expanded into developing countries at reasonable prices, offers a way to reduce the massive haemmoraging of money due to piracy.
that's the real issue, many out there are MS shills, they don't even give it a creative try, but consumers are also pushed by slick MS shill marketing as with any product (e.g. toys, how often do they work, look like the commercial...not often). but it's apple's job to show it's path and communicate it with consumers. the more apple integrates with peoples daily lives then those consumers will truly understand the difference, that's why the iphone, itv are soooooo important. i would love to be total apple all the time, and apple has near complete solution for my digital needs.
I was in Circuit City last night and wanting to show my roommate the difference in overall size andeweight of the Zune. This was impossible as their was no florr model to physically hold. They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things? All the other portable music/video players (e.g.: iPod, Creative, etc.) had retractable cords connected to alarm sensors attached but you could easily pick them up and examine the weigh, size, form function. I really think Circuit City purposely covered the Zune so iut couldn't be physically compared to other players. I even asked three different questions about it. They all said there was no open model to hold, two said that they heard how great it was, and one even told me it's lighter --and better-- than the iPod.
They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things?
They're just making sure people don't stand around the counter squirting pictures of their kids.
Yesterday I read an article about the Zune dropping to number 5 in sales.
Can you find that article? I'm curious what tehy could possibly mean by that, besides being number five in quantity behind Apple, SanDisk, Creative, and Samsung.
They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things? All the other portable music/video players (e.g.: iPod, Creative, etc.) had retractable cords connected to alarm sensors attached but you could easily pick them up and examine the weigh, size, form function. I really think Circuit City purposely covered the Zune so iut couldn't be physically compared to other players.
I saw a similar display and mount at Staples where the Zune got an end cap. I havne't been to any other stores, but it looked like the type of slick standardized display that would be given to many different chains. The best I can say is this part is probably not the store's fault at all.
Can you find that article? I'm curious what tehy could possibly mean by that, besides being number five in quantity behind Apple, SanDisk, Creative, and Samsung.
Your wish is my command, fortunately I don't delete my History very often
Comments
NPD says its weekly POS data is culled from a selective set of retailers that are part of its monthly panel, meaning it does not take into effect digital media player sales at Apple's own retail stores, among others.
Based on the above statement, the report is purely garbage.
No it is not garbage. It is usefull to know what the retail shares are. It is definetly not garbage to apple who would like to maintain a specific retail share vs online share (otherwise, why even bother selling retail?).
Just because the numbers are not all inclusive does not make them irrelevant.
I don't discount MS's ability to improve and extend the platform, but first impressions are hard to shake. I think they made a mistake rushing to get something out in time for Christmas, probably assuming that it would be "good enough". Instead, there's a lot of talk about incompatibility, flakey software, and how the wireless isn't nearly as nice as you might imagine at first blush.
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/11836/
according to news, zune has only 2.1% market share. it's now 5th in rank. Sandisk is 2nd again. game over.
also see this article. zune is gone!
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/11836/
according to news, zune has only 2.1% market share. it's now 5th in rank. Sandisk is 2nd again. game over.
Tied with.... the Walt Disney Corp.
Sandisk's rank tells you something about the wisdom of making your first and only offer hard drive based-- Sandisk doesn't even make a player over 8 GB. On account of being, um , sans discs.
Although I'm not sure what to make of the articles talk of Sandisk doing "50% price reductions" during Christmas to steal market share. Looking at their website, their players seem to be priced right in line with Apple's flash players. I wonder what the appeal is.
I'm guessing their product shipments are heavily skewed toward their 1 GB and below models, which are priced like the shuffle but have displays.
also see this article. zune is gone!
http://macdailynews.com/index.php/we...omments/11836/
according to news, zune has only 2.1% market share. it's now 5th in rank. Sandisk is 2nd again. game over.
It's too soon to say, but such a quick drop is not a good thing. If it continues to stay low, then it's up to Microsoft whether it will be another Ultimate TV or another Windows Mobile.
Zune has now drifted back down to 75th on Amazon, so it appears that after a very brief period of "cool, it's got wireless!", followed by a merely brief period of "it's OK, I guess, if you really don't like Apple or iPods", Zune has settled into its actual position (for this Christmas, anyway): "meh".
I don't discount MS's ability to improve and extend the platform, but first impressions are hard to shake. I think they made a mistake rushing to get something out in time for Christmas, probably assuming that it would be "good enough". Instead, there's a lot of talk about incompatibility, flakey software, and how the wireless isn't nearly as nice as you might imagine at first blush.
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
I'm not sure it was a mistake on their part. They aren't in the position Apple was in back then.
When Apple first approached the music companies, there was no successful download store, or MP3 player associated with one.
Apple could dictate some of the terms because the companies were skeptical that it would work at all. So they granted him wide latitude.
But, at the same time, the did force DRM upon the product.
At this time, Apple is in the drivers seat, so to speak, and MS is coming from nowhere. Apple has 75% of the business, and Zune had none. The music companies, which are now not so happy with Apple, and its pricing, or DRM, simply told MS what they were willing to do to allow MS to come out with their product.
MS likely had very little say in the matter.
Just like Apple before them, they would prefer to set all of their own standards, but couldn't.
I'm not sure it was a mistake on their part. They aren't in the position Apple was in back then.
When Apple first approached the music companies, there was no successful download store, or MP3 player associated with one.
Apple could dictate some of the terms because the companies were skeptical that it would work at all. So they granted him wide latitude.
But, at the same time, the did force DRM upon the product.
At this time, Apple is in the drivers seat, so to speak, and MS is coming from nowhere. Apple has 75% of the business, and Zune had none. The music companies, which are now not so happy with Apple, and its pricing, or DRM, simply told MS what they were willing to do to allow MS to come out with their product.
MS likely had very little say in the matter.
Just like Apple before them, they would prefer to set all of their own standards, but couldn't.
UH, right, which is why I said
Letting the recording industry dictate copy control on everything transmitted was a huge mistake, although probably required to get the industry to put some catalogue behind the Zune.
It's another disadvantage of trying to muscle into the market at this point: Steve had the luxury of negotiating with the record companies when they were still clueless about on-line sales. They're still clueless, but now they think they know where the money is, which makes them all the worse.
Just seems like a no-brainer: "We will help you break the choke hold that Jobs has got you in. We know you hate it, just tell us what you want and we'll throw the might of MS behind the push and you can get a partner that understands how business is done, instead of some damn hippy who thinks he's all that".
So when it comes to something like "copy protection on everything wireless" does MS suddenly stand up and say "oh, hell no, the kids won't stand for it- lets work out a solution that protects your assets but allows some flexibility"?
I'm guessing not, because copy protection at that level is so completely unnecessary, if you're willing to spend a little time engineering a solution. I think I read somewhere that the official explanation is that "there is no way to distinguish between copyrighted and non-copyrighted material", but we know that is nonsense. It's just that it's the easiest solution, and the one that takes the least time to explain to the suits.
UH, right, which is why I said
I was just elaborating.
At any rate, on the particular point of copy control on user generated files, I'm guessing MS didn't even try that hard. Doesn't it seem likely that MS approached the labels explicitly emphasizing their willingness to "work with" the industry, unlike that bastard Steve Jobs and his arrogant high-handedness?
I imagine that Jobs approached the industry the same way. There wasn't any word of the industry being unhappy with Apple when the deal was first done. Just now, that Apple controls the downloads. Can't blame the industry for being nervous about that.
Just seems like a no-brainer: "We will help you break the choke hold that Jobs has got you in. We know you hate it, just tell us what you want and we'll throw the might of MS behind the push and you can get a partner that understands how business is done, instead of some damn hippy who thinks he's all that".
Oh, I'm sure that there was at least the implication of that. I don't know if it was actually said out loud. If so, MS didn't get the best deal out of it.
So when it comes to something like "copy protection on everything wireless" does MS suddenly stand up and say "oh, hell no, the kids won't stand for it- lets work out a solution that protects your assets but allows some flexibility"?
It's been said in articles, and I said it too, that MS has no power in the music download area. They only have a bad history with their "Plays For Sure" software and marketing. They would not likely have had the persuasivie abilities that Jobs had when the industry was swinging in the wind with internat sales. If they hit MS with too much , they wouldn't have lost sales at all, just some possible control, and what's to say that they trust MS all that much?
I'm guessing not, because copy protection at that level is so completely unnecessary, if you're willing to spend a little time engineering a solution. I think I read somewhere that the official explanation is that "there is no way to distinguish between copyrighted and non-copyrighted material", but we know that is nonsense. It's just that it's the easiest solution, and the one that takes the least time to explain to the suits.
I don't know if they can tell the difference, but you are right in that what was done was the easiest solution.
Actually, this is good for Apple.
If they can tell the difference, and it was the easiest solution, then Apple can do their own solution that will put this one to shame. Apple doesn't shy away from doing what is hard, even if it takes longer. MS might have been time limited in needing to have product for this holiday season.
We just have to hope that whatever MS and the industry have done together has locked it in stone for them.
Actually, this is good for Apple.
If they can tell the difference, and it was the easiest solution, then Apple can do their own solution that will put this one to shame. Apple doesn't shy away from doing what is hard, even if it takes longer. MS might have been time limited in needing to have product for this holiday season.
We just have to hope that whatever MS and the industry have done together has locked it in stone for them.
Exactly. I think Apple can go that extra mile, and do the spade work to make it palatable to the industry (of course bearing in mind that they have much more leverage to have some say in what is "palatable" than MS, at this point).
The dynamic that market share gives Apple-- "we're going to figure out what the best experience for the consumer is, and what works best for Apple (not necessarily in that order but not necessarily mutually exclusive) and then twist the industry's arm to implement it" gives them an a great position to maintain dominance with the iPod.
I think the Zune demonstrates that even if a rival has good ideas they may not be in a position to fully implement them. Of course, if the industry were smart, they would pick a rival to Apple and grant them all kinds of leeway and easing of restrictions, in order to improve the chances of creating some competition and to have the opportunity to play one vendor off of another to get what they want.
But smart they are not.
I think the Zune demonstrates that even if a rival has good ideas they may not be in a position to fully implement them. Of course, if the industry were smart, they would pick a rival to Apple and grant them all kinds of leeway and easing of restrictions, in order to improve the chances of creating some competition and to have the opportunity to play one vendor off of another to get what they want.
But smart they are not.
I don't think the Zune had any really good ideas, and the industry yeah, is dumb. For consumers time and time again Microsoft has not really had good outstanding ideas. Profitable and coherent ones anyway, instead of flashy gimmicks and just reaming cash up the consumer's rear hole. Call me an Apple zealot, but really, at this stage, only Apple *gets* it. Consumer/Enthusiast wise. Rivals better think about this long and hard, and the content owner industry better wake the FRACK UP and stop fighting Apple and instead *working with* Apple for leveraging their content into an expanding, profitable, and cutting edge arena.
that's the real issue, many out there are MS shills, they don't even give it a creative try, but consumers are also pushed by slick MS shill marketing as with any product (e.g. toys, how often do they work, look like the commercial...not often). but it's apple's job to show it's path and communicate it with consumers. the more apple integrates with peoples daily lives then those consumers will truly understand the difference, that's why the iphone, itv are soooooo important. i would love to be total apple all the time, and apple has near complete solution for my digital needs.
I was in Circuit City last night and wanting to show my roommate the difference in overall size andeweight of the Zune. This was impossible as their was no florr model to physically hold. They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things? All the other portable music/video players (e.g.: iPod, Creative, etc.) had retractable cords connected to alarm sensors attached but you could easily pick them up and examine the weigh, size, form function. I really think Circuit City purposely covered the Zune so iut couldn't be physically compared to other players. I even asked three different questions about it. They all said there was no open model to hold, two said that they heard how great it was, and one even told me it's lighter --and better-- than the iPod.
They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things?
They're just making sure people don't stand around the counter squirting pictures of their kids.
They're just making sure people don't stand around the counter squirting pictures of their kids.
Or it's also protecting people from getting squirted
Yesterday I read an article about the Zune dropping to number 5 in sales.
Can you find that article? I'm curious what tehy could possibly mean by that, besides being number five in quantity behind Apple, SanDisk, Creative, and Samsung.
They couldn't/wouldn't get one from a box and the two they had on display were functional but were attached to the display with large metal brackets covering the backs and sides. It was a Hanibal Lecter setup for the Zune. Are people stealing these things? All the other portable music/video players (e.g.: iPod, Creative, etc.) had retractable cords connected to alarm sensors attached but you could easily pick them up and examine the weigh, size, form function. I really think Circuit City purposely covered the Zune so iut couldn't be physically compared to other players.
I saw a similar display and mount at Staples where the Zune got an end cap. I havne't been to any other stores, but it looked like the type of slick standardized display that would be given to many different chains. The best I can say is this part is probably not the store's fault at all.
Can you find that article? I'm curious what tehy could possibly mean by that, besides being number five in quantity behind Apple, SanDisk, Creative, and Samsung.
Your wish is my command, fortunately I don't delete my History very often
Your wish is my command, fortunately I don't delete my History very often
Cool. Thanks. I had the order tight expect for 4th place which is Memorex and I can't recall ever seeing a Memorex portable music player.
I am surprised to see that SanDisk's discounts brought to within .1 percent of equaling the iPod for that week.