Apple to re-enter the sub-notebook market

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  • Reply 161 of 248
    hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Instead of LED backlights why not go for OLED? Sony showed a couple of 11" OLEDs at CES last month reportedly clearing for mass production this year. (Be sure to check the video clip at the bottom on that link to see how thin these monitors are!) Now with an OLED you could reduce the screen from its current 5mm down to 2mm. This will cause problems with the camera though...



    But I guess OLEDs might be in the same league as a flash HD: coming real soon now, but not soon enough.



    I think it depends on where Apple wants to place this machine. If it is an 'accessory' Mac Book, one that you carry around next to a Mac Pro or iMac at home, then I can imagine it using merely a 32GB flash HD and nothing more.



    A while ago there were rumors of an 8-10" iPod / tablet / iTunes remote control. Maybe this subnotebook and that big iPod is one and the same?



    WWDC is far away, though. If anything the release date seems to suggest that it either relies on Leopard technology (resolution independence? multi-touch?) or on some components to be ready (flash HD? OLED?) - otherwise I do not see why Apple couldn't release it already.



    I still wish for a subnotebook that has two LCDs (or OLEDs to save battery and thickness) instead of one LCD plus a keyboard. That way a tiny laptop could still have a decent screen space (albeit with a bridge in the middle). And imagine if you could not only open it 180 degree completely flat, but a full 360 degree folding it all the way back to use it tablet style - if you wish.



    Now that would be something new in a subnotebook, that Apple - entering this segment late - could people wow with, that hasn't been seen before.

    Yet it's likely too expensive.
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  • Reply 162 of 248
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slewis View Post


    Save Express Card slots and eSATA for that dock



    Sebastian



    No, I'd like to see SATA E without the dock (if any) In the field, faster transfer will save battery life, and be more pleasant all around.
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  • Reply 163 of 248
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,717member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chucker View Post


    Optical drives reach nowhere near the bandwidths to make SATA useful, which is why machines ?*whether laptops or desktops ?*typically have a PATA bridge for the optical drive. The one big reason I can think of to have an SATA optical drive is to get rid of that bridge.



    SATA E would be better than USB 2 for that purpose, and would allow a small, fast, external HD. USB 2 is too slow for that as well, in my experience.
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  • Reply 164 of 248
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Except PATA is not hot-pluggable. External drives must be hot-pluggable or at least warm-pluggable. This could be circumvented by using Firewire or USB 2.0. Besides, nobody said the eSATA connector would be only for the optical drive. It could just as easily allow you to connect external hard drives, which could definitely benefit from the extra bandwidth. But even Firewire 400 is a too slow for today's 3.5" SATA hard drives. You'd need Firewire 800, and that's nearly dead as an interface. eSATA is the only interface with headroom for drives in the next few years.



    But nobody talked about using PATA to connect the drives externally. Naturally you'd use a FireWire or USB bridge, in which case there is plenty of enough bandwidth.



    Sure, if you want the flexibility of being able to connect an optical or hard drive with the same port?*but that seems silly. USB ports aren't going anywhere.
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  • Reply 165 of 248
    chuckerchucker Posts: 5,089member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    No, I'd like to see SATA E without the dock (if any) In the field, faster transfer will save battery life, and be more pleasant all around.



    You do realize that eSATA doesn't provide power, so you'll require an external adapter? And that it isn't bootable with Apple's firmware?



    Both things that USB 2.0 and FireWire do better?
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  • Reply 166 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    Why are you assuming moving parts=fragile? One word: iPod. Thinner than any ultralight, yet the hard drives hold up fine, except when subjected to too much shock. Other, non-moving parts are more likely to give problems with too-thin laptops, for instance the LCD glass, which could break if flexed too much or it the laptop is dropped. 3/4" does not make an subnotebook pointless. Many subnotebooks are thicker than that right now. Sony's TX series is 1" thick. Dell's subnotebook is 1.2. Try to distinguish between what you personally want and what's really necessary.



    Hmmm, yeah the Glass would be a problem. I'll have to do more research in that area, but the idea is to not flex it, so if Aluminum (according to my Macbook, plastic would not work, a bit on the bendy side) can be made Sturdy enough at a thin size, or maybe Titanium (OK now I'm guessing materials) then it would work.



    But if Dell's Sub Notebook is thicker then my well... Non Sub Notebook, then that's just funny.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 167 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Denton View Post


    I would guess that computer technology is far more resourse intensive and does more damage to the environment than producing books: save the planet and don't buy computers. \



    They save a lot of paper, Laptops these days don't use very much power, and... while I hate to admit it, HP is better than Apple when it comes to recycling. They claimed to have recycled as much as a Jumbo Jet (707 or something like that, I forgot) out of their products.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 168 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Denton View Post


    Let me get this straight: you think that it's possible for a computer company to make a clamshell style notebook that is thinner than an iPod Nano? Even the Motorola RAZR is 1/2" thick! You're completely dilusional! 3/4" might be possible today, and 1/2" might be possible in a few years, but I doubt that you will ever see a notebook that is less than 1/4" thick (unless, perhaps, the screen is completely removed and replaced with a holographic display!).



    Yes I think it's possible. The thickest parts of a notebook: the screen, the battery, the HDD, and the optical drive.



    The screen would be made ultra thin hopefully with LED backlights. There would be no HDD or Optical drive in this, and the battery could be made smaller and maybe be wider instead of thicker because it would be consuming far less battery power.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 169 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    Instead of LED backlights why not go for OLED? Sony showed a couple of 11" OLEDs at CES last month reportedly clearing for mass production this year. (Be sure to check the video clip at the bottom on that link to see how thin these monitors are!) Now with an OLED you could reduce the screen from its current 5mm down to 2mm. This will cause problems with the camera though...



    But I guess OLEDs might be in the same league as a flash HD: coming real soon now, but not soon enough.



    I think it depends on where Apple wants to place this machine. If it is an 'accessory' Mac Book, one that you carry around next to a Mac Pro or iMac at home, then I can imagine it using merely a 32GB flash HD and nothing more.



    A while ago there were rumors of an 8-10" iPod / tablet / iTunes remote control. Maybe this subnotebook and that big iPod is one and the same?



    WWDC is far away, though. If anything the release date seems to suggest that it either relies on Leopard technology (resolution independence? multi-touch?) or on some components to be ready (flash HD? OLED?) - otherwise I do not see why Apple couldn't release it already.



    I still wish for a subnotebook that has two LCDs (or OLEDs to save battery and thickness) instead of one LCD plus a keyboard. That way a tiny laptop could still have a decent screen space (albeit with a bridge in the middle). And imagine if you could not only open it 180 degree completely flat, but a full 360 degree folding it all the way back to use it tablet style - if you wish.



    Now that would be something new in a subnotebook, that Apple - entering this segment late - could people wow with, that hasn't been seen before.

    Yet it's likely too expensive.



    LED I think would be better for this. OLED has too short of a lifespan to be worth the bother. I admit, those screens are exactly what I'm thinking of, only they look even thinner then I thought. I think manufacturers are just about to give up on OLED though. It doesn't seem possible to extend it's lifespan anymore.



    I don't think an 8-10" iPod will ever see the light of day because it's just not practical. They're not one in the same, this thing is a Macbook



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 170 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    No, I'd like to see SATA E without the dock (if any) In the field, faster transfer will save battery life, and be more pleasant all around.



    It would be rather large though, and increase size.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 171 of 248
    nofeernofeer Posts: 2,427member
    if all you really need is a screen to read 8,5 inches, with the interface like the iphone you could use a smaller screen and simply zoom things up what about a 9 inch wide screen? what is the minimum size needed given the possibility of the iphone interface??
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  • Reply 172 of 248
    hobbithobbit Posts: 532member
    Quote:

    LED I think would be better for this. OLED has too short of a lifespan to be worth the bother.



    I don't think it's as bad. Sony quotes 18,000 hours for their blue OLEDs (up to 30-50,000 for red and green resp.). 18,000 doesn't seem much, but think about it, it means that if you use your screen 10 hours every day 365 days a year then they will last exactly 5 years. Meaning after 2.5 -3 years they are about half as bright as they were originally. I don't know about you, but I use my notebooks at best 3-4 years then I buy a new one as it's too old to use then current software. So I'd be happy with today's OLEDs lasting me 3-4 years (until reaching half-brightness). I can live with that. Such a life span might not be acceptable for a TV set, but it is for a laptop monitor.



    And there's one thing that I really like about OLEDs: their contrast. Blacks are true blacks - unlike any backlit LCD which is never truly black. That should make for a really nice monitor.



    Quote:

    I don't think an 8-10" iPod will ever see the light of day because it's just not practical. They're not one in the same, this thing is a Macbook



    I didn't literally mean we're talking iPod here. Apple - as a decoy - often assigns projects under false pretense. The iPhone was internally handled as new 'iPod' model - to cover up the fact that it is more than an iPod.

    I would not be surprised if the rumors of an 8-10" iPod were in fact diversions for a new subnotebook project. Hardware technicians involved might have been told they're working on a 'big screen iPod' (and spread/created the rumors as such) while in fact their technology was always intended for a secret subnotebook project.

    In that sense I meant I wouldn't be surprised if the big screen 'iPod' turned out to be the same as a MacBook subnotebook.
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  • Reply 173 of 248
    dentondenton Posts: 725member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slewis View Post


    They save a lot of paper, Laptops these days don't use very much power, and... while I hate to admit it, HP is better than Apple when it comes to recycling. They claimed to have recycled as much as a Jumbo Jet (707 or something like that, I forgot) out of their products.



    Sebastian



    I was talking about the amount of resources that are required to manufacture a computer as opposed to the resourses required to manufacture a book. There is no doubt that a book requires a lot of paper, which means that it requires trees and water for the pulp, metals for the machines in the factory, and coal to power the process (as well as metals, plastics (oil), and trees to deliver the power to the plant). But essentially, making a book is centuries old technology (including the machinery). The amount of resources required to manufacture a computer is much higher; and when you factor in recycling, this is even worse: a book is nearly 100% recyclable, but a computer is not (in fact, computers are toxic waste!).



    Now, if you're going to have a computer anyway, then the possibility of having your school texts on your computer may be better. Though, when the text is on your computer, it requires more power (coal, plastics, and trees) just to read the text, whereas no such extra resources are required to read a printed book.
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  • Reply 174 of 248
    kolchakkolchak Posts: 1,398member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Chucker View Post


    But nobody talked about using PATA to connect the drives externally. Naturally you'd use a FireWire or USB bridge, in which case there is plenty of enough bandwidth.



    Sure, if you want the flexibility of being able to connect an optical or hard drive with the same port?*but that seems silly. USB ports aren't going anywhere.



    Today's SATA hard drives are speced with transfer rates of up to 3Gb/sec. Even if it was half that under real world conditions, do you really think 480Mb/sec for USB 2.0 or 400Mb/sec that Firewire 400 provides (both theoretical maximums only) is anywhere close? Or even the 800Mb/sec Firewire 800?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Slewis View Post


    Hmmm, yeah the Glass would be a problem. I'll have to do more research in that area, but the idea is to not flex it, so if Aluminum (according to my Macbook, plastic would not work, a bit on the bendy side) can be made Sturdy enough at a thin size, or maybe Titanium (OK now I'm guessing materials) then it would work.



    You're definitely inexperienced with Apple laptops, aren't you? Thin metal can be just as flexible as thick plastic. Macbook Pros use aluminum cases, as do their predecessors. They're not ultrarigid. The original Powerbook G4 used a titanium case. It was not ultrarigid. Nothing as thin as you want will be rigid enough. Maybe boron fiber, but it's too expensive to use in a consumer electronics enclosure.
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  • Reply 175 of 248
    If it's a Mac Book I'd want:

    11'' Widescreen running 1280x800 (approximately)

    1.66 GHz C2D

    512MB Ram (however if its released with Leopard I'd suggest 1 GB.

    Combo-drive

    Ports: 2-USB 2.0, 1-FireWire 400, Power, expresscard 34, ethernet 10/100, Mini-DVI, kensigton security slot. I'm willing to lose a USB port if theres not enough room.

    Price Point - $799.00



    If its a Mac Book Pro:

    13.3'' Widescreen 1280x900

    2 GHz - 2.16 GHz C2D

    1GB Ram

    Superdrive

    Ports: probably same as current MB ports but with addition of a firewire 800 port.

    Price Point: 1699.00



    Please make the glossy screen an option. not everyone likes them.
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  • Reply 176 of 248
    I'd rather keep a USB port and lose the optical drive for weight and battery considerations. I have havd laptops for the past 7 years and only occasionally have I ever burned CDs or DVDs on them. More often than not, the optical drive is just added ballast I have to carry around.



    I need, however, to attach a mouse, a printer, my projector (it has a USB mouse function), and my iPod.
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  • Reply 177 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by hobBIT View Post


    I don't think it's as bad. Sony quotes 18,000 hours for their blue OLEDs (up to 30-50,000 for red and green resp.). 18,000 doesn't seem much, but think about it, it means that if you use your screen 10 hours every day 365 days a year then they will last exactly 5 years. Meaning after 2.5 -3 years they are about half as bright as they were originally. I don't know about you, but I use my notebooks at best 3-4 years then I buy a new one as it's too old to use then current software. So I'd be happy with today's OLEDs lasting me 3-4 years (until reaching half-brightness). I can live with that. Such a life span might not be acceptable for a TV set, but it is for a laptop monitor.



    And there's one thing that I really like about OLEDs: their contrast. Blacks are true blacks - unlike any backlit LCD which is never truly black. That should make for a really nice monitor.





    I didn't literally mean we're talking iPod here. Apple - as a decoy - often assigns projects under false pretense. The iPhone was internally handled as new 'iPod' model - to cover up the fact that it is more than an iPod.

    I would not be surprised if the rumors of an 8-10" iPod were in fact diversions for a new subnotebook project. Hardware technicians involved might have been told they're working on a 'big screen iPod' (and spread/created the rumors as such) while in fact their technology was always intended for a secret subnotebook project.

    In that sense I meant I wouldn't be surprised if the big screen 'iPod' turned out to be the same as a MacBook subnotebook.



    Hmmm... well maybe OLED could work.



    However, I did not know that Apple disguised their Products like that
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  • Reply 178 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Denton View Post


    I was talking about the amount of resources that are required to manufacture a computer as opposed to the resourses required to manufacture a book. There is no doubt that a book requires a lot of paper, which means that it requires trees and water for the pulp, metals for the machines in the factory, and coal to power the process (as well as metals, plastics (oil), and trees to deliver the power to the plant). But essentially, making a book is centuries old technology (including the machinery). The amount of resources required to manufacture a computer is much higher; and when you factor in recycling, this is even worse: a book is nearly 100% recyclable, but a computer is not (in fact, computers are toxic waste!).



    Now, if you're going to have a computer anyway, then the possibility of having your school texts on your computer may be better. Though, when the text is on your computer, it requires more power (coal, plastics, and trees) just to read the text, whereas no such extra resources are required to read a printed book.



    But in the end, you're printing fewer books anyways, and those things just take up a lot of space when a single computer can hold thousands of them.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 179 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Kolchak View Post


    You're definitely inexperienced with Apple laptops, aren't you? Thin metal can be just as flexible as thick plastic. Macbook Pros use aluminum cases, as do their predecessors. They're not ultrarigid. The original Powerbook G4 used a titanium case. It was not ultrarigid. Nothing as thin as you want will be rigid enough. Maybe boron fiber, but it's too expensive to use in a consumer electronics enclosure.



    Yes I am actually, my Macbook is actually my first Mac, and even before I would've never considered a Laptop over a desktop, so it's also my first Laptop and I'm in love with not having a single wire, accessing my Printer over my Airport Express, or playing music in the speakers, and soon... backing up my Data (now we just need Wireless Optical Drives and Scanners)



    But that's beside the point. If you can't find an alternative for Metal or Plastic in the case, then perhaps an alternative for the glass? Come to think of it... I don't think my screen uses glass... not that I can tell just by touching it if there is glass behind it.



    Sebastian
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  • Reply 180 of 248
    slewisslewis Posts: 2,081member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Bergermeister View Post


    I'd rather keep a USB port and lose the optical drive for weight and battery considerations. I have havd laptops for the past 7 years and only occasionally have I ever burned CDs or DVDs on them. More often than not, the optical drive is just added ballast I have to carry around.



    I need, however, to attach a mouse, a printer, my projector (it has a USB mouse function), and my iPod.



    The only reason I ever used my Optical Drive was to get Xcode off the Install Discs.



    However, for your Periphreals:

    Bluetooth, WiFi, Bluetooth, and USB in that order



    Sebastian
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