It's still a better card than the Mini has by a long way and even though you maybe can't replace the card at the purchase stage, you could quite easily do it yourself. The fact is that you cannot do anything with the Mini in that respect at all. You either buy it or don't.
No, we went over this on the other thread: the X1300 is about twice as good as the 950..
Also, the XPS comes with a half-height graphics slots. Good luck fitting anything decent in there.
The fact is, you cannot do anything with the Dell in that respect at all. You either buy it or you don't.
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
Also, the XPS comes with a half-height graphics slots. Good luck fitting anything decent in there.
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
The 950 also has pixel shaders. Vertices haven't been a bottleneck in over a decade, though, so lacking hardware T&L is a moot point.
I said "decent." No one in their right mind would "upgrade" a card to what's practically the same card in terms of performance.
Maybe the X2300 will still be half-height, but the low-end cards don't get updated as fast as the high end.
Quote:
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
Unless some of those components you want to upgrade include the graphics card.
Quote:
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
No, it's a budget chip. Just like the integrated graphics. Both are more than 95% of the population uses, neither is nearly good enough for the remaining 5%.
Quote:
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
Sort of. It's only ever two of the three, but you're right: Apple makes a profit on the mini.
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
Upgrades to it are limited. The video cards are very limited. Other than that one card, how many others at different spec points are there? No x86 machine allow much with cpu upgrades. It's not like older Mac's where you could remove the entire card, and replace it with a cpu ten times as fast. Those days are over for everyone.
The only thing you can't replace in the Mini of any importance, is the chipset, with the video. If you need that, then you're out. Otherwise, no.
Service? Ha! That's considered to be one of the major problems Dell has had in recent years. They went from excellent to poor. Dell himself cited service as one of the areas in which Dell has fallen down, and has promised that it would be one of his priorities. We'll see.
It's almost assured that when the 965 chip is out, Apple will go to that for the Mini. That will cure most of the graphics ills. for that class of machine it will be enough for the next year, until Intel improves it further, as they seem to be planning.
One will get most of the advantages of a low-medium gpu at a fraction of the price. For the market the Mini is in, that should do.
It's almost assured that when the 965 chip is out, Apple will go to that for the Mini. That will cure most of the graphics ills. for that class of machine it will be enough for the next year, until Intel improves it further, as they seem to be planning.
One will get most of the advantages of a low-medium gpu at a fraction of the price. For the market the Mini is in, that should do.
I agree. Many here pine for dedicated graphics in the mini and the Macbook. Both will keep IG, IMO, as IG gets better faster than dedicated graphics gets cheaper.
Vertices haven't been a bottleneck in over a decade, though, so lacking hardware T&L is a moot point.
Not so much bottleneck, more just not having graphical glitches. Also, it is a factor in some games I've tested. Also in 3D software. The GMA can barely push 100,000 vertices whereas the X1600 can do in excess of 2 million. There's way too much middle ground there and the x1300 could easily cover it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
I said "decent." No one in their right mind would "upgrade" a card to what's practically the same card in terms of performance.
True, those are around the same. You do get faster ones though. There are X1600 low profile cards on newegg. I don't expect there to be high end cards in that form factor, I'm just saying that it's nice to have options - there are actually 65 low profile cards on newegg that could go in the machine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by gregmightdothat
No, it's a budget chip. Just like the integrated graphics. Both are more than 95% of the population uses, neither is nearly good enough for the remaining 5%.
It's a budget chip that can still play F.E.A.R, albeit on lower settings. I even have to turn them down a bit on the x1600.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
It's almost assured that when the 965 chip is out, Apple will go to that for the Mini. That will cure most of the graphics ills.
It will relieve it a bit but I'm sure people will still be asking why they don't give the X1600 card as an option. Plus it's still two months away. So that'll be a whole 8 months without a Mini update.
Marvin, I'm going to be an ass here and just say, anyone even remotely serious about PC gaming wouldn't be caught dead with an X1300. Let alone buy any machine in 2007 with it standard since it will go straight into the bin. 8)
It will relieve it a bit but I'm sure people will still be asking why they don't give the X1600 card as an option. Plus it's still two months away. So that'll be a whole 8 months without a Mini update.
The 965 is a much better chip than the 950. With Intel showing interest in being a higher end graphics supplier, particularly with ATI being purchased by their rival, we will see continued improvement.
Does this mean that it will equal a mid level gpu at any time? Probably not. But, whatever comparative computer from the Windows world you are comparing the Mini to, the Mini is still a machine that Apple markets to a specific segment. It is also smaller. Some options are simply not practical. The 9xx series of chips offers graphics duty without adding other chips and supporting devices. This is what Apple wants.
Remember that Intel supplies about half of the worlds graphics chips with these chip-sets. Someone is using them!
I wouldn't be concerned that it will be 8 months before an update. The past is past, and we can do nothing about it. Just look to it hopefully being about 2 months away.
The 965 is a much better chip than the 950. With Intel showing interest in being a higher end graphics supplier, particularly with ATI being purchased by their rival, we will see continued improvement.
Does this mean that it will equal a mid level gpu at any time? Probably not. But, whatever comparative computer from the Windows world you are comparing the Mini to, the Mini is still a machine that Apple markets to a specific segment. It is also smaller. Some options are simply not practical. The 9xx series of chips offers graphics duty without adding other chips and supporting devices. This is what Apple wants.
Remember that Intel supplies about half of the worlds graphics chips with these chip-sets. Someone is using them!
I wouldn't be concerned that it will be 8 months before an update. The past is past, and we can do nothing about it. Just look to it hopefully being about 2 months away.
Bingo. There isn't a reasonable stock "HTPC Small Form Factor" PC Case let alone motherboard that one can purchase that comes anywhere remotely close to a Mac Mini. Or even MacMini+ExternalDrive+ElgatoEyeTV...
Marvin, I'm going to be an ass here and just say, anyone even remotely serious about PC gaming wouldn't be caught dead with an X1300. Let alone buy any machine in 2007 with it standard since it will go straight into the bin. 8)
Sure but I'm not talking about serious gaming - even the X1600 can't really do serious gaming. I just mean that Apple's lowest end shouldn't have such a huge difference in performance compared to the next level up because that doesn't give people any choice. The X1300 will play Half-Life 2 at maximum settings with no AA. The GMA can't do that.
3dmark06
X1600 = 1800
X1400 = 900
X1300 = 560
GMA 950 = 170
So the jump from the Mac Mini to the iMac with X1600 gives you an order of magnitude jump in graphics performance. I would be content if they used x1400s because that's only a factor of 2. More than a factor of 10 is taking the piss.
According to this forum, the X3000 should definitely be a good solution:
But their benchmarks are coming out at around 750 for 3dmark05 for the X3000 and the x1300 gets 1000 so it's about double the GMA. When the drivers are better optimized and we get it in the mac machines, I'm sure it will perform a bit better. Behold the future spec of the Mini:
You'll notice it has a TV tuner and two optical drives so that would equal a Mini + elgato + external HD as I'm sure you can replace one of the optical drives with a HD. And they are nice quiet mini-cd compatible tray loading drives.
Buy a used one. You might find it for a bit more than $1,000.
That's a bit low. I wouldn't expect that a used Mac Pro to be less than $2k unless it's the 2GHz version. I'd be suspicious of it if it were too much less than that.
That's a bit low. I wouldn't expect that a used Mac Pro to be less than $2k unless it's the 2GHz version. I'd be suspicious of it if it were too much less than that.
Sure, it does depend on the model. The low end model might be going for not much more than that. The cheapest model is $1,995 new.
And think of the advantage. If you buy the low end used model for that, you can then get faster chips when they come down even more in price, and end up with a really good deal overall, as the machines are all the same inside.
Sure, it does depend on the model. The low end model might be going for not much more than that. The cheapest model is $1,995 new.
And think of the advantage. If you buy the low end used model for that, you can then get faster chips when they come down even more in price, and end up with a really good deal overall, as the machines are all the same inside.
Perhaps then if one buys used Mac Pro, out of the 1st year warranty, then not as much "pain" and worry about seriously violating the warranty by swapping in the Clovertowns.
Is the AnandTech link the main one out there on the 8 core MacPro DIY ?? Other more recent hack/mods??
Perhaps then if one buys used Mac Pro, out of the 1st year warranty, then not as much "pain" and worry about seriously violating the warranty by swapping in the Clovertowns.
Is the AnandTech link the main one out there on the 8 core MacPro DIY ?? Other more recent hack/mods??
Comments
It's still a better card than the Mini has by a long way and even though you maybe can't replace the card at the purchase stage, you could quite easily do it yourself. The fact is that you cannot do anything with the Mini in that respect at all. You either buy it or don't.
No, we went over this on the other thread: the X1300 is about twice as good as the 950..
Also, the XPS comes with a half-height graphics slots. Good luck fitting anything decent in there.
The fact is, you cannot do anything with the Dell in that respect at all. You either buy it or you don't.
No, we went over this on the other thread: the X1300 is about twice as good as the 950..
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-...ist.844.0.html
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
Also, the XPS comes with a half-height graphics slots. Good luck fitting anything decent in there.
Ebay: 512MB Nvidia Geforce 7300 half-height PCI-e card = $72
The fact is, you cannot do anything with the Dell in that respect at all. You either buy it or you don't.
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-...ist.844.0.html
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
Ebay: 512MB Nvidia Geforce 7300 half-height PCI-e card = $72
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
Yeah but you have to run Windows on it, that's the real problem!
(Or Linux, but that doesn't help everyone)
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-...ist.844.0.html
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
The 950 also has pixel shaders. Vertices haven't been a bottleneck in over a decade, though, so lacking hardware T&L is a moot point.
Ebay: 512MB Nvidia Geforce 7300 half-height PCI-e card = $72
I said "decent." No one in their right mind would "upgrade" a card to what's practically the same card in terms of performance.
Maybe the X2300 will still be half-height, but the low-end cards don't get updated as fast as the high end.
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
Unless some of those components you want to upgrade include the graphics card.
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
No, it's a budget chip. Just like the integrated graphics. Both are more than 95% of the population uses, neither is nearly good enough for the remaining 5%.
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
Sort of. It's only ever two of the three, but you're right: Apple makes a profit on the mini.
i thought you were more interested in Leopard
Yeah I am, and I'm guessing I'll see that in new hardware - now get off my case.
http://www.notebookcheck.net/Mobile-...ist.844.0.html
3 times as fast in benchmarks but it also has pixel shaders and hardware T&L therefore it's more than just speed. Nonetheless, you agree they are shipping a better card in a cheaper machine.
Ebay: 512MB Nvidia Geforce 7300 half-height PCI-e card = $72
You can upgrade all the components easily, which you can't do with the Mini design.
You can upgrade the GPU, which you can't do at all in the Mini but the x1300 is a decent chip anyway.
Even if you couldn't do more to it, it's still cheaper with better service and better spec.
Upgrades to it are limited. The video cards are very limited. Other than that one card, how many others at different spec points are there? No x86 machine allow much with cpu upgrades. It's not like older Mac's where you could remove the entire card, and replace it with a cpu ten times as fast. Those days are over for everyone.
The only thing you can't replace in the Mini of any importance, is the chipset, with the video. If you need that, then you're out. Otherwise, no.
Service? Ha! That's considered to be one of the major problems Dell has had in recent years. They went from excellent to poor. Dell himself cited service as one of the areas in which Dell has fallen down, and has promised that it would be one of his priorities. We'll see.
One will get most of the advantages of a low-medium gpu at a fraction of the price. For the market the Mini is in, that should do.
It's almost assured that when the 965 chip is out, Apple will go to that for the Mini. That will cure most of the graphics ills. for that class of machine it will be enough for the next year, until Intel improves it further, as they seem to be planning.
One will get most of the advantages of a low-medium gpu at a fraction of the price. For the market the Mini is in, that should do.
I agree. Many here pine for dedicated graphics in the mini and the Macbook. Both will keep IG, IMO, as IG gets better faster than dedicated graphics gets cheaper.
Why? Why bother moving from the one niche unix platform to another niche unix platform?
If you're going to switch then Windows is the way to go...all other whining aside.
Vinea
Actually OS X is the most widely used "nix" OS in the world. Does it still qualify as a niche?
The 950 also has pixel shaders.
I wish Splinter Cell could find them.
Vertices haven't been a bottleneck in over a decade, though, so lacking hardware T&L is a moot point.
Not so much bottleneck, more just not having graphical glitches. Also, it is a factor in some games I've tested. Also in 3D software. The GMA can barely push 100,000 vertices whereas the X1600 can do in excess of 2 million. There's way too much middle ground there and the x1300 could easily cover it.
I said "decent." No one in their right mind would "upgrade" a card to what's practically the same card in terms of performance.
True, those are around the same. You do get faster ones though. There are X1600 low profile cards on newegg. I don't expect there to be high end cards in that form factor, I'm just saying that it's nice to have options - there are actually 65 low profile cards on newegg that could go in the machine.
No, it's a budget chip. Just like the integrated graphics. Both are more than 95% of the population uses, neither is nearly good enough for the remaining 5%.
It's a budget chip that can still play F.E.A.R, albeit on lower settings. I even have to turn them down a bit on the x1600.
It's almost assured that when the 965 chip is out, Apple will go to that for the Mini. That will cure most of the graphics ills.
It will relieve it a bit but I'm sure people will still be asking why they don't give the X1600 card as an option. Plus it's still two months away. So that'll be a whole 8 months without a Mini update.
It will relieve it a bit but I'm sure people will still be asking why they don't give the X1600 card as an option. Plus it's still two months away. So that'll be a whole 8 months without a Mini update.
The 965 is a much better chip than the 950. With Intel showing interest in being a higher end graphics supplier, particularly with ATI being purchased by their rival, we will see continued improvement.
Does this mean that it will equal a mid level gpu at any time? Probably not. But, whatever comparative computer from the Windows world you are comparing the Mini to, the Mini is still a machine that Apple markets to a specific segment. It is also smaller. Some options are simply not practical. The 9xx series of chips offers graphics duty without adding other chips and supporting devices. This is what Apple wants.
Remember that Intel supplies about half of the worlds graphics chips with these chip-sets. Someone is using them!
I wouldn't be concerned that it will be 8 months before an update. The past is past, and we can do nothing about it. Just look to it hopefully being about 2 months away.
The 965 is a much better chip than the 950. With Intel showing interest in being a higher end graphics supplier, particularly with ATI being purchased by their rival, we will see continued improvement.
Does this mean that it will equal a mid level gpu at any time? Probably not. But, whatever comparative computer from the Windows world you are comparing the Mini to, the Mini is still a machine that Apple markets to a specific segment. It is also smaller. Some options are simply not practical. The 9xx series of chips offers graphics duty without adding other chips and supporting devices. This is what Apple wants.
Remember that Intel supplies about half of the worlds graphics chips with these chip-sets. Someone is using them!
I wouldn't be concerned that it will be 8 months before an update. The past is past, and we can do nothing about it. Just look to it hopefully being about 2 months away.
Bingo. There isn't a reasonable stock "HTPC Small Form Factor" PC Case let alone motherboard that one can purchase that comes anywhere remotely close to a Mac Mini. Or even MacMini+ExternalDrive+ElgatoEyeTV...
Marvin, I'm going to be an ass here and just say, anyone even remotely serious about PC gaming wouldn't be caught dead with an X1300. Let alone buy any machine in 2007 with it standard since it will go straight into the bin.
Sure but I'm not talking about serious gaming - even the X1600 can't really do serious gaming. I just mean that Apple's lowest end shouldn't have such a huge difference in performance compared to the next level up because that doesn't give people any choice. The X1300 will play Half-Life 2 at maximum settings with no AA. The GMA can't do that.
3dmark06
X1600 = 1800
X1400 = 900
X1300 = 560
GMA 950 = 170
So the jump from the Mac Mini to the iMac with X1600 gives you an order of magnitude jump in graphics performance. I would be content if they used x1400s because that's only a factor of 2. More than a factor of 10 is taking the piss.
According to this forum, the X3000 should definitely be a good solution:
http://forums.vr-zone.com/archive/in.../t-101174.html
But their benchmarks are coming out at around 750 for 3dmark05 for the X3000 and the x1300 gets 1000 so it's about double the GMA. When the drivers are better optimized and we get it in the mac machines, I'm sure it will perform a bit better. Behold the future spec of the Mini:
http://www.newegg.com/Product/Produc...82E16883227007
As always, already available in a PC.
You'll notice it has a TV tuner and two optical drives so that would equal a Mini + elgato + external HD as I'm sure you can replace one of the optical drives with a HD. And they are nice quiet mini-cd compatible tray loading drives.
Buy a used one. You might find it for a bit more than $1,000.
That's a bit low. I wouldn't expect that a used Mac Pro to be less than $2k unless it's the 2GHz version. I'd be suspicious of it if it were too much less than that.
That's a bit low. I wouldn't expect that a used Mac Pro to be less than $2k unless it's the 2GHz version. I'd be suspicious of it if it were too much less than that.
Sure, it does depend on the model. The low end model might be going for not much more than that. The cheapest model is $1,995 new.
And think of the advantage. If you buy the low end used model for that, you can then get faster chips when they come down even more in price, and end up with a really good deal overall, as the machines are all the same inside.
Sure, it does depend on the model. The low end model might be going for not much more than that. The cheapest model is $1,995 new.
And think of the advantage. If you buy the low end used model for that, you can then get faster chips when they come down even more in price, and end up with a really good deal overall, as the machines are all the same inside.
Perhaps then if one buys used Mac Pro, out of the 1st year warranty, then not as much "pain" and worry about seriously violating the warranty by swapping in the Clovertowns.
Is the AnandTech link the main one out there on the 8 core MacPro DIY ?? Other more recent hack/mods??
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2832&p=6
While googling I found http://www.clovertown.com/ ...Heh.
Perhaps then if one buys used Mac Pro, out of the 1st year warranty, then not as much "pain" and worry about seriously violating the warranty by swapping in the Clovertowns.
Is the AnandTech link the main one out there on the 8 core MacPro DIY ?? Other more recent hack/mods??
http://www.anandtech.com/mac/showdoc.aspx?i=2832&p=6
While googling I found http://www.clovertown.com/ ...Heh.
I don't know of any other useful ones either.