As I mentioned in the other thread...there's no reason for a smaller MBP to be any cheaper. 13" is a bit on the large size but certainly more portable than a 15".
See my reply in the other thread to your reply. It's not just because it's smaller. that doesn't necessarily mean that production costs go down, however, many people, especially the people who don't know computer hardware, etc. in-depth, will expect a lower price, and Apple must price it there in order to stay competitive and appear reasonable to a large portion of its market. Thus, profit suffers on the machine due to the gap between production cost and sale price narrows.
And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.
And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
I don't know. Personally, the specs of the MacBook or the iBook of two years ago are good enough for me in a laptop. It's the gearheads who are never satisfied. I follow various forums and continually read comments by people who want a "new 12" PowerBook" and aren't satisfied with the MacBook.
Perhaps I should have left it to someone else to answer the question.
What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.
Not when there's people like myself who choose a macbook rather than a pro because we want the smalller size. True, we don't NEED the mbp if we do that as much as power users. But there is a segment of people who would get a "more expensive" version of the macbook for gaming. It's the video card issue. Nothing more.I would also venture to say that 13" laptop users are more likely to buy an external display for the home as well so there are profits to be had there as well.
What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.
Quote:
Originally Posted by iDave
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
"VIDEO CARD". As a gamer would say. You hear it a lot on the Apple Stores. The potential buyers ask if they can get the mbp gpu in mb size for gaming. And they are willing to pay the extra price to keep the smaller footprint but have the better graphics. It doesn't have to be the best in the lineup, just a decent one. Sort of like the entry level 15" mbp. And 15" isn't THAT much more real estate screenwise. Think about how many people who own mbp buy an external display anyway for the home/office.
Students and others that travel a lot need a small size but like to plug into an external monitor at home. Why buy two computers when you can do that?
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
Oveer the past few years I've had engineering friends who bought the 12" Powerbook.
Also, a guy I know who does Java development bought one.
They all bought them for the small size, and for the time, the power.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
It's not that small a niche. Very few people buy computers for games. The type of person who is looking for a small laptop isn't a gamer - the two are mutually exclusive. Gamers are a smaller niche IMHO, they're just more vocal online than normal people that have work to do.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
Why should every product be viewed from the perspective of a gamer? Is that the only market that matters? There may be a lot of them, but I don't think they make a majority of the market. It's starting to get annoying.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
That's exactly the point. Why are you even bringing the gamers into this? It's a whole different market. It's also not a market the Mac competes in anyway. If you want to go to a LAN party, you get the fastest Windows laptop that you can afford with features out the wazoo, plain and simple, because any little sacrifice you make playing on a Mac laptop (assuming the game even runs on a Mac) will probably get you fragged very quickly in a sea of Windows-optimized games. Nobody would buy a Windows ultraportable for gaming, either, so it's a moot point. Don't think about what you want. What you want isn't necessarily what others want. The market for ultraportables is for people who are willing to give up a bit of power and screen size in favor of something easier to carry day in and day out, for tasks like writing, web surfing, email, giving presentations and playing back movies, all of which are relatively simple but still not as easy to do on an iPhone. If you're not one of these people, it's foolish to say it doesn't fit your requirements. It's not meant to. You might as well be complaining that the Mac Mini can't do serious Photoshop work.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.
You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?
Well, this probably merits its own thread but here it is: TS claims that the next Macbook Pro will not get full HD display. I hope it will be not a yawner too. Has AI learned something about this?
Well, this probably merits its own thread but here it is: TS claims that the next Macbook Pro will not get full HD display. I hope it will be not a yawner too. Has AI learned something about this?
Normally, I'd say that you should ignore ThinkSecret, but I really don't see a compelling reason for Apple to offer it WUXGA. A buddy of mine that wants to get a WUXGA notebook says that they are very hard to find, it's only currently offered on like four models that he's found, which I take to mean that there's not much of a market for the resolution. I hope that changes when resolution independence is made commonly available, but that would be late this year at the earliest..
It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.
You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?
Well said.
And why not change that and take advantage of the new intel capabilities. What can be lost from increased sales from a new population? Do you have to be hardcore gamer to play games? No. People are fooling themselves if they think the market is too small to matter.Increased profits are increased profits. Do you know how many people play WoW? Look it up. Blizzard also makes an effort in that they make the code universal. And it's not available for console. Go to the Mac part of the WoW technical forum and look at all the posts coming from people who want to get a mac for gaming cause they are sick of Windows. And that's just one game.
And it isn't only gamers that want a portable laptop with a nice gpu. I am just using them as yet another example of who would be interested in a 13"mbp. Not everybody needs to be a hardcore video editor to enjoy that.
Comments
As I mentioned in the other thread...there's no reason for a smaller MBP to be any cheaper. 13" is a bit on the large size but certainly more portable than a 15".
See my reply in the other thread to your reply. It's not just because it's smaller. that doesn't necessarily mean that production costs go down, however, many people, especially the people who don't know computer hardware, etc. in-depth, will expect a lower price, and Apple must price it there in order to stay competitive and appear reasonable to a large portion of its market. Thus, profit suffers on the machine due to the gap between production cost and sale price narrows.
And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.
And unfortunately, said market isn't even too interested in machines with small screen sizes. The pro market likes to get all the screen size it can get without being too bulky. For some it's 17" but no larger, and for others, that's too big and prefer the 15.4". 13" and 11" would be far too small for the pro market to do the screen-heavy things demanded of them, like graphics programs, professional web developing, and video editing.
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
I don't know. Personally, the specs of the MacBook or the iBook of two years ago are good enough for me in a laptop. It's the gearheads who are never satisfied. I follow various forums and continually read comments by people who want a "new 12" PowerBook" and aren't satisfied with the MacBook.
Perhaps I should have left it to someone else to answer the question.
What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.
Not when there's people like myself who choose a macbook rather than a pro because we want the smalller size. True, we don't NEED the mbp if we do that as much as power users. But there is a segment of people who would get a "more expensive" version of the macbook for gaming. It's the video card issue. Nothing more.I would also venture to say that 13" laptop users are more likely to buy an external display for the home as well so there are profits to be had there as well.
What you want isn't necessarily what's good for the company. a 13" MBP would lower profits. I give it a 6.5% chance of ever happening.
Seems like there's a good bit of clamoring for a smaller MBP to me. Those who bought 12" PowerBooks a few years ago really want something to replace them with. I'd agree that a smaller computer doesn't necessarily need as much power, unless you also use it as your main computer connected to a bigger display.
+1
The clamoring is indeed there.
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
"VIDEO CARD". As a gamer would say. You hear it a lot on the Apple Stores. The potential buyers ask if they can get the mbp gpu in mb size for gaming. And they are willing to pay the extra price to keep the smaller footprint but have the better graphics. It doesn't have to be the best in the lineup, just a decent one. Sort of like the entry level 15" mbp. And 15" isn't THAT much more real estate screenwise. Think about how many people who own mbp buy an external display anyway for the home/office.
Students and others that travel a lot need a small size but like to plug into an external monitor at home. Why buy two computers when you can do that?
VIDEO CARD.
Students and others that travel a lot need a small size but like to plug into an external monitor at home. Why buy two computers when you can do that?
What do you mean by "video card"?
If you mean a seperate GPU, and memory, ok.
But, if you really mean "video card", I don't see it happening.
What do you mean by "video card"?
If you mean a seperate GPU, and memory, ok.
But, if you really mean "video card", I don't see it happening.
Yes that's what I meant.
1) A matte screen
2) A matte screen
What "pro" features does someone require if they want the smallest possible screen? The programs that require the intensive work that a pro machine can handle almost all need a big screen... Final Cut, Photoshop, Pro Tools/Logic etc... Seems like people just need an even smaller, thinner iBook... not a MacBook Pro.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
Oveer the past few years I've had engineering friends who bought the 12" Powerbook.
Also, a guy I know who does Java development bought one.
They all bought them for the small size, and for the time, the power.
That is exceptionally poor logic. Your examples are optimized for a very large displays. Pro simply professional; not every professional job revolves around video editing.
As a network consultant I need to have a small, highly mobile notebook. Having a dual-link DVI would make things easier for connecting to a larger display when I'm home. This means a dedicated GPU. I currently have a 12" Panasonic Toughbook and a MacBook when I'm on the road. I'd raelly like to have something around 10-11" and under 3 librae. I'd even prefer to have the optical drive be an external attachment as I rarely use the damn thing while traveling.
I only hope that Apple does make a bijou machine that they use the 4:3 ratio with a screen that small. Using the widescreen format makes a vertical footprint to small. I know widescreen is the cool thing to have and differentiates old/new and lower/higher priced purchases but with a small form factor it severely reduces it's potential usefulness. When sitting on a plane I have plenty of vertical room but no extra horizonal room.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
It's not that small a niche. Very few people buy computers for games. The type of person who is looking for a small laptop isn't a gamer - the two are mutually exclusive. Gamers are a smaller niche IMHO, they're just more vocal online than normal people that have work to do.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
Why should every product be viewed from the perspective of a gamer? Is that the only market that matters? There may be a lot of them, but I don't think they make a majority of the market. It's starting to get annoying.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
That's exactly the point. Why are you even bringing the gamers into this? It's a whole different market. It's also not a market the Mac competes in anyway. If you want to go to a LAN party, you get the fastest Windows laptop that you can afford with features out the wazoo, plain and simple, because any little sacrifice you make playing on a Mac laptop (assuming the game even runs on a Mac) will probably get you fragged very quickly in a sea of Windows-optimized games. Nobody would buy a Windows ultraportable for gaming, either, so it's a moot point. Don't think about what you want. What you want isn't necessarily what others want. The market for ultraportables is for people who are willing to give up a bit of power and screen size in favor of something easier to carry day in and day out, for tasks like writing, web surfing, email, giving presentations and playing back movies, all of which are relatively simple but still not as easy to do on an iPhone. If you're not one of these people, it's foolish to say it doesn't fit your requirements. It's not meant to. You might as well be complaining that the Mac Mini can't do serious Photoshop work.
Ok, that's why I was asking. People who want these small-screen notebooks are using them with a large screen display at home. If you're really concerned about a small weightless notebook, you'll still have to make sacrifices in function... especially for "gamers" I can't see many gamers wanting an ultra-portable MBP... The screen is usually a very important factor for gaming and it wouldn't be powerful enough compared to the inefficient PC monster laptops.
I can see some cool advantages, but it just seems to me that an ultra-small MBP would be a niche item.
It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.
You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?
Well, this probably merits its own thread but here it is: TS claims that the next Macbook Pro will not get full HD display. I hope it will be not a yawner too. Has AI learned something about this?
Normally, I'd say that you should ignore ThinkSecret, but I really don't see a compelling reason for Apple to offer it WUXGA. A buddy of mine that wants to get a WUXGA notebook says that they are very hard to find, it's only currently offered on like four models that he's found, which I take to mean that there's not much of a market for the resolution. I hope that changes when resolution independence is made commonly available, but that would be late this year at the earliest..
It seems as though you are assuming that if Apple produces one of these machines that they will then discontinue all of their other, larger, more powerful, machines, so that these gamers of yours will then have no choice from Apple.
You must know that it isn't the truth. Why must all of the choices from Apple appeal to gamers, who are not much of the Apple user base anyway?
Well said.
And why not change that and take advantage of the new intel capabilities. What can be lost from increased sales from a new population? Do you have to be hardcore gamer to play games? No. People are fooling themselves if they think the market is too small to matter.Increased profits are increased profits. Do you know how many people play WoW? Look it up. Blizzard also makes an effort in that they make the code universal. And it's not available for console. Go to the Mac part of the WoW technical forum and look at all the posts coming from people who want to get a mac for gaming cause they are sick of Windows. And that's just one game.
And it isn't only gamers that want a portable laptop with a nice gpu. I am just using them as yet another example of who would be interested in a 13"mbp. Not everybody needs to be a hardcore video editor to enjoy that.