I'm astonished that so many people were not only expecting some kind of ZFS support, but also expecting it to be the default filesystem for the O/S. Are you people mad? You certainly know jack shit about putting together a stable operating system.
Only a complete lunatic would trust their system disk to a filesystem that's totally new (on OS X) untried and untested. No company in their right mind would take a step like this.
And what about the current installed base? How did you propose the 10's of millions of OS X owners who will upgrade to Leopard would switch to using ZFS? The answer is that you can't; not without a complete system backup to external media, followed by a full restore after zapping the disk and creating a blank ZFS filesystem on it first. Who on earth is going to do that except your bravest hard core hackers.
ZFS isn't dead. It will appear in its own good time and when it does it'll be included as a data only (non-boot) technical preview. It WILL have bugs, and by their very nature some will nasty ones; because every new Unix filesystem I've seen released in the 20 years I've been in this business has had teething problems.
If Apple decide not to ship ZFS on Leopard right now, it's because it's way way too buggy. They know there are idiots out there who'll suck up the hype, ignore the warnings; dive into it head first; then wail like a spanked child when their precious data slides into the bit bucket.
Just have patience. It'll all come good in its own time.
Speaking to the Italian press on Monday, Apple's Europe boss stated that iPhone will be available only alongside a cellular contract when it arrives overseas later this year. Meanwhile, it looks like there's sorry news on the 'Flash on iPhone' and 'ZFS on Mac OS X' fronts.
Apple Europe frontman Pascal Cagni won't say precisely when and with which provider Apple plans to launch its iPhone in Europe, but when it does arrive it won't be offered with pre-paid plans that are popular in parts of the region.
Cagni told the Italian-language seeteB.IT that the Apple handset is slated for availability "at the end" of 2007 and will only be sold with a service contract.
Translation of relevant parts (thanks, Chris):
Q1) could you be more specific about the previous announcement that
the iPhone will be available in Europe in the 'fourth quarter'?
A: "We still don't know, the [release] period will be toward the end
of the year"
Q2) Have you chosen a carrier for Europe?
A: About the carrier, we still don't have any news to provide you. I
can say that for Italy, those of you very accustomed to pre-paid,
there will be issues with the iPhone.
Q3) then a more pointed question is asked: "...does this mean Apple
will pursue the same subscription only strategy in Europe & Italy (as
it is doing the US)?"
A: Yes, I can confirm that it has been decided that it will only be
offered by subscription"
iPhone to support YouTube
Meanwhile, there's sure to be some dashed hopes if iPhone arrives later this month without support for Adobe's Flash media format. Right now, Flash is looking more like a "maybe" than a guarantee.
Apple chief executive Steve Jobs told the New York Times that "you might see" Flash support come to iPhone, but YouTube support would be present regardless.
"Yeah, YouTube -- of course," he said. "But you don?t need to have Flash to show YouTube. All you need to do is deal with YouTube. And plus, we could get ?em to up their video resolution at the same time, by using h.264 instead of the old codec."
Jobs also confirmed that iPhone won't support Java. "[It's] not worth building in," he said. "Nobody uses Java anymore. It?s this big heavyweight ball and chain."
ZFS mystery
More certain appears to be the state of ZFS on Mac OS X, or lack thereof. Brian Croll, Apple's senior director of product marketing for the Mac OS X, told InformationWeek that "ZFS is not happening," when asked whether the Sun-developed Zettabyte File System would appear in Leopard.
Instead, Leopard will reportedly use Apple's current hierarchical file system, called HFS+.
Strangely, just five days prior Sun chief executive Jonathan Schwartz boasted during a company event that Apple would announce at its developers conference a plan to make ZFS the default file system for Leopard.
Update: An Apple spokesperson contacted InformationWeek on Tuesday seeking to clarify Croll's statement. "Croll was apparently supposed to indicate that ZFS would be available as a limited option, but not as the default file system."
The publication is reportedly drafting a separate story to note Apple's mis-statement and "hopefully to reveal more about how ZFS would work in Leopard."
You know, I"m tired of guessing at Apple. I'm tired of promoting Apple. I'm tired of getting into
debates with friends over which kind of computer is better. screw it, I don't care. If it's a good product, then I'll read up on it. but so long Apple Insider.\
I'm astonished that so many people were not only expecting some kind of ZFS support, but also expecting it to be the default filesystem for the O/S. Are you people mad? You certainly know jack shit about putting together a stable operating system.
Only a complete lunatic would trust their system disk to a filesystem that's totally new (on OS X) untried and untested. No company in their right mind would take a step like this.
And what about the current installed base? How did you propose the 10's of millions of OS X owners who will upgrade to Leopard would switch to using ZFS? The answer is that you can't; not without a complete system backup to external media, followed by a full restore after zapping the disk and creating a blank ZFS filesystem on it first. Who on earth is going to do that except your bravest hard core hackers.
ZFS isn't dead. It will appear in its own good time and when it does it'll be included as a data only (non-boot) technical preview. It WILL have bugs, and by their very nature some will nasty ones; because every new Unix filesystem I've seen released in the 20 years I've been in this business has had teething problems.
If Apple decide not to ship ZFS on Leopard right now, it's because it's way way too buggy. They know there are idiots out there who'll suck up the hype, ignore the warnings; dive into it head first; then wail like a spanked child when their precious data slides into the bit bucket.
Just have patience. It'll all come good in its own time.
You know "jack shit" about how most of us feel about this. Few here actually expected ZFS to be a default. We expected, from what some of us have seen of the development of it at Apple, that it might be there as a possible choice for some purposes, as is the Unix file system.
Sure, a few were all excited about the Schwartz statement. But few DO know much about software development. That's not a crime, as you seem to think it is.
Do you have the skills to develop a new filesystem? If not, be nice.
PCs are not a growth market. It's a replacement market with tiny growth rates, where much of the replacement market is already locked-in via corporate software. Real growth is in gizmos.
Real growth is in new gizmos, when sales start from about zero. The iPod achieved three-digit growth rates from calendar Q2 2003 to Q4 2005. But portable music players are not so new anymore, especially the iPod which is the market leader and has now sold over 100 million units worldwide.
Last September the Mac was pretty close: 30 percent year-over-year growth in Macs and 35 percent in iPods. Last quarter for the first time ever the Mac growth was higher than the iPod growth: 36 percent YOY growth in Macs and 24 percent in iPods.
It's nice to know that ZFS is going to be there as an option. I certainly didn't expect it to be the default. I think most of the interesting features are in drive arrays, and most Macs don't have that.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rjwill246
And the alternative you have in mind is---?
The issue has been settled, but I think ZFS RAID-Z beats having to buy RAID hardware. All good RAID hardware costs more than that of OS X. Software RAID-5 is possible, but OS X hasn't supported that idea.
Real growth is in new gizmos, when sales start from about zero. The iPod achieved three-digit growth rates from calendar Q2 2003 to Q4 2005. But portable music players are not so new anymore, especially the iPod which is the market leader and has now sold over 100 million units worldwide.
Last September the Mac was pretty close: 30 percent year-over-year growth in Macs and 35 percent in iPods. Last quarter for the first time ever the Mac growth was higher than the iPod growth: 36 percent YOY growth in Macs and 24 percent in iPods.
True, but the overall market for PCs is now expected to grow at less than 10% a year because it is saturated, with desktops close to zero, and laptops making all the gains. Apple's surge in PC sales is largely fueled by consumers "switching" or buying an additional computer; of which many are considering Apple because of the iPod itself.
Whereas the music player market is far from saturated and could be expected to grow at over 30% for the next year at least. And the phone market is one where people are used to replacing phones in less than two years, so the potential sales is huge. Apple's iPhone is actually aimed at changing that aspect of the market.
I'm not saying that Apple can't keep up 30% PC growth but it continue to be driven by more than just OS X. It will rely heavily on iPod and iPhone crossovers.
Regardless of who said it, there's no way ZFS got axed because of this statement. It probably just wasn't a good use of time for the Leopard developers, considering that boot was going to be a major undertaking. The last thing Apple needs is another Leopard delay.
True. When Sun makes ZFS bootable by default and updates their own FAQs regarding this issue then I'd expect Apple to move forward. When there is a HFS+ to ZFS migration option then it will become more prominent.
Java is developed around the idea of being able to run any program on any machine (although slower since it is interpreted). Java may run horrible on the iPhone because of its speed (or lack thereof).
Yeah, because interpreting JavaScript and other web content is soooo much faster.
Quote:
However, I think the issue isn't that "no one uses it anymore" but rather the restricted 3rd party development of applications for the iPhone.
You hit the nail on the head there. It's all about preventing 3rd party apps.
Take a look around! It is a wonderful world in which to live if you've got ZFS in place.
You are correct - and there's a whole lot more to it. Maybe Steve's just holding back and didn't realize that the entire shareholder group wanted to hear about ZFS integration.... Looks like they voted after the keynote by calling their brokers >> $4 down!! Am I missing something?
True, but the overall market for PCs is now expected to grow at less than 10% a year because it is saturated [?] Whereas the music player market is far from saturated and could be expected to grow at over 30% for the next year at least.
The market for Macs is not much more saturated than the market for iPods, IMO. For years the Mac trailed the overall PC growth, there is a whole lot of catching up to do. Nowadays the Mac is consistently growing at 25-30 percent YOY, 3x the market growth, except during the last major hardware transition but it only lasted for three quarters (Q4 05: 20%, Q1 06: 4%, ouch! Q2 06: 12%). On the other hand, the iPod is the leader in its market, the period of insane growth is over and the replacement market is increasingly important. According to Credit Suisse the iPod lifecycle is 1.5 year, this is the sign of a maturing market.
I hope they won't go full-bore into gizmos, that's not necessarily where the real growth is and people are eager for new Macs, like I said the Mac is growing faster than the iPod at the moment. Ironically, that's why Apple can focus on gizmos. The Mac can take care of itself, up to a point.
You are correct - and there's a whole lot more to it. Maybe Steve's just holding back and didn't realize that the entire shareholder group wanted to hear about ZFS integration.... Looks like they voted after the keynote by calling their brokers >> $4 down!! Am I missing something?
The shares always bid up before a keynote, and thus people make money on them from the nearly inevitable fall?which accounts for most of the drop.
If there is a keynote reason for the drop I think it's a combination of two things: no SDK for the iPhone, and Leopard not leveraging Core Animation to make a really stunning user interface (as most people were expecting more then iTunes the Finder, fake 3D Dock, and translucent menu bar?stacks are nice though).
Comments
I disagree with pretty much everything you said. It is complete and utter rubbish and one wonders why you bothered.
I don't think it's rubbish.
You do realize that Apple just moved into the top 10 in server sales, don't you?
That's one thing that Apple can't really brag about.
1 - HP: 634,093 units (30.03%)
2 - Dell: 445,850 units (21.12%)
3 - IBM: 295,175 units (13.98%)
4 - Fujitsu: 81,068 units (3.84%)
5 - Sun: 79,063 units (3.74%)
8 - Acer: 14,900 units (0.71%) *
9 - Hitachi: 9,000 units (0.43%) *
10 - Apple: 8,700 units (0.41%) *
Other: 543,416 units (25.74%)
Total: 2,111,265 units (100.00%)
Only a complete lunatic would trust their system disk to a filesystem that's totally new (on OS X) untried and untested. No company in their right mind would take a step like this.
And what about the current installed base? How did you propose the 10's of millions of OS X owners who will upgrade to Leopard would switch to using ZFS? The answer is that you can't; not without a complete system backup to external media, followed by a full restore after zapping the disk and creating a blank ZFS filesystem on it first. Who on earth is going to do that except your bravest hard core hackers.
ZFS isn't dead. It will appear in its own good time and when it does it'll be included as a data only (non-boot) technical preview. It WILL have bugs, and by their very nature some will nasty ones; because every new Unix filesystem I've seen released in the 20 years I've been in this business has had teething problems.
If Apple decide not to ship ZFS on Leopard right now, it's because it's way way too buggy. They know there are idiots out there who'll suck up the hype, ignore the warnings; dive into it head first; then wail like a spanked child when their precious data slides into the bit bucket.
Just have patience. It'll all come good in its own time.
Speaking to the Italian press on Monday, Apple's Europe boss stated that iPhone will be available only alongside a cellular contract when it arrives overseas later this year. Meanwhile, it looks like there's sorry news on the 'Flash on iPhone' and 'ZFS on Mac OS X' fronts.
Apple Europe frontman Pascal Cagni won't say precisely when and with which provider Apple plans to launch its iPhone in Europe, but when it does arrive it won't be offered with pre-paid plans that are popular in parts of the region.
Cagni told the Italian-language seeteB.IT that the Apple handset is slated for availability "at the end" of 2007 and will only be sold with a service contract.
Translation of relevant parts (thanks, Chris):
Q1) could you be more specific about the previous announcement that
the iPhone will be available in Europe in the 'fourth quarter'?
A: "We still don't know, the [release] period will be toward the end
of the year"
Q2) Have you chosen a carrier for Europe?
A: About the carrier, we still don't have any news to provide you. I
can say that for Italy, those of you very accustomed to pre-paid,
there will be issues with the iPhone.
Q3) then a more pointed question is asked: "...does this mean Apple
will pursue the same subscription only strategy in Europe & Italy (as
it is doing the US)?"
A: Yes, I can confirm that it has been decided that it will only be
offered by subscription"
iPhone to support YouTube
Meanwhile, there's sure to be some dashed hopes if iPhone arrives later this month without support for Adobe's Flash media format. Right now, Flash is looking more like a "maybe" than a guarantee.
Apple chief executive Steve Jobs told the New York Times that "you might see" Flash support come to iPhone, but YouTube support would be present regardless.
"Yeah, YouTube -- of course," he said. "But you don?t need to have Flash to show YouTube. All you need to do is deal with YouTube. And plus, we could get ?em to up their video resolution at the same time, by using h.264 instead of the old codec."
Jobs also confirmed that iPhone won't support Java. "[It's] not worth building in," he said. "Nobody uses Java anymore. It?s this big heavyweight ball and chain."
ZFS mystery
More certain appears to be the state of ZFS on Mac OS X, or lack thereof. Brian Croll, Apple's senior director of product marketing for the Mac OS X, told InformationWeek that "ZFS is not happening," when asked whether the Sun-developed Zettabyte File System would appear in Leopard.
Instead, Leopard will reportedly use Apple's current hierarchical file system, called HFS+.
Strangely, just five days prior Sun chief executive Jonathan Schwartz boasted during a company event that Apple would announce at its developers conference a plan to make ZFS the default file system for Leopard.
Update: An Apple spokesperson contacted InformationWeek on Tuesday seeking to clarify Croll's statement. "Croll was apparently supposed to indicate that ZFS would be available as a limited option, but not as the default file system."
The publication is reportedly drafting a separate story to note Apple's mis-statement and "hopefully to reveal more about how ZFS would work in Leopard."
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
You know, I"m tired of guessing at Apple. I'm tired of promoting Apple. I'm tired of getting into
debates with friends over which kind of computer is better. screw it, I don't care. If it's a good product, then I'll read up on it. but so long Apple Insider.
I'm astonished that so many people were not only expecting some kind of ZFS support, but also expecting it to be the default filesystem for the O/S. Are you people mad? You certainly know jack shit about putting together a stable operating system.
Only a complete lunatic would trust their system disk to a filesystem that's totally new (on OS X) untried and untested. No company in their right mind would take a step like this.
And what about the current installed base? How did you propose the 10's of millions of OS X owners who will upgrade to Leopard would switch to using ZFS? The answer is that you can't; not without a complete system backup to external media, followed by a full restore after zapping the disk and creating a blank ZFS filesystem on it first. Who on earth is going to do that except your bravest hard core hackers.
ZFS isn't dead. It will appear in its own good time and when it does it'll be included as a data only (non-boot) technical preview. It WILL have bugs, and by their very nature some will nasty ones; because every new Unix filesystem I've seen released in the 20 years I've been in this business has had teething problems.
If Apple decide not to ship ZFS on Leopard right now, it's because it's way way too buggy. They know there are idiots out there who'll suck up the hype, ignore the warnings; dive into it head first; then wail like a spanked child when their precious data slides into the bit bucket.
Just have patience. It'll all come good in its own time.
You know "jack shit" about how most of us feel about this. Few here actually expected ZFS to be a default. We expected, from what some of us have seen of the development of it at Apple, that it might be there as a possible choice for some purposes, as is the Unix file system.
Sure, a few were all excited about the Schwartz statement. But few DO know much about software development. That's not a crime, as you seem to think it is.
Do you have the skills to develop a new filesystem? If not, be nice.
PCs are not a growth market. It's a replacement market with tiny growth rates, where much of the replacement market is already locked-in via corporate software. Real growth is in gizmos.
Real growth is in new gizmos, when sales start from about zero. The iPod achieved three-digit growth rates from calendar Q2 2003 to Q4 2005. But portable music players are not so new anymore, especially the iPod which is the market leader and has now sold over 100 million units worldwide.
Last September the Mac was pretty close: 30 percent year-over-year growth in Macs and 35 percent in iPods. Last quarter for the first time ever the Mac growth was higher than the iPod growth: 36 percent YOY growth in Macs and 24 percent in iPods.
And the alternative you have in mind is---?
The issue has been settled, but I think ZFS RAID-Z beats having to buy RAID hardware. All good RAID hardware costs more than that of OS X. Software RAID-5 is possible, but OS X hasn't supported that idea.
Real growth is in new gizmos, when sales start from about zero. The iPod achieved three-digit growth rates from calendar Q2 2003 to Q4 2005. But portable music players are not so new anymore, especially the iPod which is the market leader and has now sold over 100 million units worldwide.
Last September the Mac was pretty close: 30 percent year-over-year growth in Macs and 35 percent in iPods. Last quarter for the first time ever the Mac growth was higher than the iPod growth: 36 percent YOY growth in Macs and 24 percent in iPods.
True, but the overall market for PCs is now expected to grow at less than 10% a year because it is saturated, with desktops close to zero, and laptops making all the gains. Apple's surge in PC sales is largely fueled by consumers "switching" or buying an additional computer; of which many are considering Apple because of the iPod itself.
Whereas the music player market is far from saturated and could be expected to grow at over 30% for the next year at least. And the phone market is one where people are used to replacing phones in less than two years, so the potential sales is huge. Apple's iPhone is actually aimed at changing that aspect of the market.
I'm not saying that Apple can't keep up 30% PC growth but it continue to be driven by more than just OS X. It will rely heavily on iPod and iPhone crossovers.
Regardless of who said it, there's no way ZFS got axed because of this statement. It probably just wasn't a good use of time for the Leopard developers, considering that boot was going to be a major undertaking. The last thing Apple needs is another Leopard delay.
True. When Sun makes ZFS bootable by default and updates their own FAQs regarding this issue then I'd expect Apple to move forward. When there is a HFS+ to ZFS migration option then it will become more prominent.
Java is developed around the idea of being able to run any program on any machine (although slower since it is interpreted). Java may run horrible on the iPhone because of its speed (or lack thereof).
Yeah, because interpreting JavaScript and other web content is soooo much faster.
However, I think the issue isn't that "no one uses it anymore" but rather the restricted 3rd party development of applications for the iPhone.
You hit the nail on the head there. It's all about preventing 3rd party apps.
Well emig647, the point of ZFS is that you will never again need any disk utilities.
Third, ZFS has a "send" function for backup that trumps anything else you've seen:
http://docs.sun.com/app/docs/doc/819...7ht6qsc?a=view
Take a look around! It is a wonderful world in which to live if you've got ZFS in place.
You are correct - and there's a whole lot more to it. Maybe Steve's just holding back and didn't realize that the entire shareholder group wanted to hear about ZFS integration.... Looks like they voted after the keynote by calling their brokers >> $4 down!! Am I missing something?
Looks like they voted after the keynote by calling their brokers >> $4 down!! Am I missing something?
Yeah, value on your investment.
True, but the overall market for PCs is now expected to grow at less than 10% a year because it is saturated [?] Whereas the music player market is far from saturated and could be expected to grow at over 30% for the next year at least.
The market for Macs is not much more saturated than the market for iPods, IMO. For years the Mac trailed the overall PC growth, there is a whole lot of catching up to do. Nowadays the Mac is consistently growing at 25-30 percent YOY, 3x the market growth, except during the last major hardware transition but it only lasted for three quarters (Q4 05: 20%, Q1 06: 4%, ouch! Q2 06: 12%). On the other hand, the iPod is the leader in its market, the period of insane growth is over and the replacement market is increasingly important. According to Credit Suisse the iPod lifecycle is 1.5 year, this is the sign of a maturing market.
I hope they won't go full-bore into gizmos, that's not necessarily where the real growth is and people are eager for new Macs, like I said the Mac is growing faster than the iPod at the moment. Ironically, that's why Apple can focus on gizmos. The Mac can take care of itself, up to a point.
You are correct - and there's a whole lot more to it. Maybe Steve's just holding back and didn't realize that the entire shareholder group wanted to hear about ZFS integration.... Looks like they voted after the keynote by calling their brokers >> $4 down!! Am I missing something?
The shares always bid up before a keynote, and thus people make money on them from the nearly inevitable fall?which accounts for most of the drop.
If there is a keynote reason for the drop I think it's a combination of two things: no SDK for the iPhone, and Leopard not leveraging Core Animation to make a really stunning user interface (as most people were expecting more then iTunes the Finder, fake 3D Dock, and translucent menu bar?stacks are nice though).