A) I have seen many many 'where is the mac tower?' threads, on just about every mac related forum. People yearn for it. It is brought countlessly. I'd like to see how many threads it's made on AI ALONE... by different people.
I honestly don't believe there is any real evidence of windows users being unhappy with mid-towers. In fact I think there is more evidence to SUPPORT that windows users PREFER mid-towers. BTW I'm talking strictly desktops here, so don't even try and bring laptops into it. Every all in one that I've seen introduced in the windows world, has pretty much not done so well. Sure you can argue that the companies don't have Apple's innovation. BUT the difference here is, the other companies offer a choice that DO offer all in ones. All-in-one ORRRR Tower. Most people are going to choose the tower for many reasons (see my post above and add price to it).
Dude...one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics. That's what you're taking issue with right now. I say "market" and you say "subgroup." I saw "logic" and you say "evidence."
But whatever: The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users...and certainly not computer users in general. The "evidence" is worthless. So too would any survey of Windows users being "unhappy" with their midpro towers. That's a subjective measure. It reminds me of that line in the movie "Dave," where he takes issue with a government program that makes people feel good about a car they already bought.
What I'm saying is "reason it through." Wintel sells mostly towers. Therefore, people buy mostly towers. This has been the PC model for years and years. People think there are desktops and laptops and nothing else. The AIO doesn't work on that side. Why? This is speculation, but I think it's because the Wintel AIOs lack the advantages of the iMac AIO. Namely, Wintel does not have 1) Leading edge industrial design 2) The "cool" factor that coems with #1, 3) complete integration of hardware and software and 4) Mac OS X and it's suite of user friendly consumer software.
What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option. Once they realize what the iMac actually is, they like it. If they need more power, they'll buy a Mac pro. That's what I've seen.
Seriously, you have the college professor syndrome. You make assumptions without actually talking to anyone outside your own homogeneous group and based solely own your own biases. I don't know why we don't just ignore you. All you do in discussions is troll anyone who is outside your definition of some kind of Mac purity. The only answer you will accept is for everyone to turn over their ability to think to Apple.
The AIO doesn't work on that side. Why? This is speculation, but I think it's because the Wintel AIOs lack the advantages of the iMac AIO. Namely, Wintel does not have 1) Leading edge industrial design 2) The "cool" factor that coems with #1, 3) complete integration of hardware and software and 4) Mac OS X and it's suite of user friendly consumer software.
Sony has come out with some pretty cool looking AIOs. I don't think there's anything about OSX that makes it more suitable, or the only OS that is suitable, for an AIO design. IMO, the reason that AIOs haven't caught on for Windows is that if people want a small Desktop form factor, they buy a laptop (and also get portability you don't get with an AIO). If they want expandibility/upgradeability (and better bang/buck), they get a regular Tower.
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What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option. Once they realize what the iMac actually is, they like it. If they need more power, they'll buy a Mac pro. That's what I've seen.
Thats a total generalization. I for one, don't want an AIO like the iMac. I want an mid-priced tower. It's not that I want more power that an iMac, I want to add a second HD, internally. I may want to use the monitor I have. Maybe in a couple years I'll want to add a HD DVD burner. Why do I have to over-spend on a MacPro to get this capibility?
I think if Mr. Jobs really wanted people to switch to a Mac, offering a Mid Tower would be the perfect model to lure them over. Afterall, it's what we're used to and like.
I think if Mr. Jobs really wanted people to switch to a Mac, offering a Mid Tower would be the perfect model to lure them over. Afterall, it's what we're used to and like.
I know we're on page 8 of this slugfest, but the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
Those who advocate an addition to the Mac line need to come up with one compelling feature Apple could offer on a Midtower that wouldn't be easily duplicated on a garden-variety Windows tower.
Until that feature emerges, we're just going in circles here.
Dude...one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics.
I don't think you mean that, exactly. I'm assuming you mean being picky about subtile differences in word usage. In this I agree with you. However, in my reply, I went out of the way to play down semantics. For example, we are talking about market segments, but I only used the word segment once, and even then put segment in parenthesis to down play it.
Yet in this discussion, we have some differences in meaning, which are important. Logic is a process by which we can prove something. Evidence is simply data by which we can support a theory. This is a very big difference. Also, regarding my use of the word subgroup, like the Mac or Windows subgroup, it was only to satisfy you if you happened to be picky about word usage. Since you're not, just ignore it.
Now, you say that any data about Mac and Windows users obtained from a forum or survey is worthless, a subjective measure. So be it if that is what you believe. Yet, in previous posts, you and others have said that if Mac users wanted a mid-tower, Apple would build it. For this statement, there is no evidence at all, just pure faith in how Apple operates.
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What I'm saying is "reason it through." Wintel sells mostly towers. Therefore, people buy mostly towers.
And Apple sells mostly iMacs, therefore Mac users buy mostly iMacs. You have demonstrated nothing by your statement.
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What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option.
That is simply ridiculous, unless you have actually interviewed Wintel users who visit Apple stores. (And obviously, some do buy the iMac.) In contrast, using taking data from AI forums we are in effect getting interviews with many Mac users who want a mid-tower, or some such Mac. As expected we get those who like the iMac too. No one is saying we all must like the same thing, only that many of us want a different choice, one that is not currently available.
Seriously, you have the college professor syndrome. You make assumptions without actually talking to anyone outside your own homogeneous group and based solely own your own biases. I don't know why we don't just ignore you. All you do in discussions is troll anyone who is outside your definition of some kind of Mac purity. The only answer you will accept is for everyone to turn over their ability to think to Apple.
Hey, watch that 'college professor syndrome' stuff. I'm a college professor. However, you're probably right in a lot of instances. This is my fourth career: Military; Treasury agent; corporate controller; and ta da, a college professor. One thing I pride myself on is keeping as open a mind as possible.
That's something that some (not naming names) AI naysayers seem not to be able to do. They don't seem to be content unless they're dragging others down to their level. During the cold war, the military was continuously reminded that people in 'some' countries didn't have the "keep up with the Joneses" attitude that Americans have. To level the playing field, Americans (and many other people) pull themselves up by the bootstraps to that next level. Then we want our kids to be even better. That attitude is partially responsible for making this country as great as it is.
Our enemy(s) had an attitude that they have to bring their neighbors down to where they are to level the playing field.
This is my round about way of saying that the naysayers here operate on that same basis. Find any way to drag down others to their level. Your quote above is dead on. We have to ignore them. To do otherwise is to give them a stage to air their crap. As long as we recognize their existence, they'll take that stage.
Hell, here I go on and on talking like a college professor. My bad.
I'm not telling them what they WANT, I'm telling them what they want is not what they NEED.
If someone needs a Raid setup, do they want or need two internal drives?
Also, someone wanted 4 Ram slots and you seemed to be ok with that and that's a want.
Wants and needs can't be separated easily. There are some things that people want badly enough that it borders on a need but that need will vary from person to person. I need matching displays but others can live with one glossy, one matte.
Whatever you call them, the reasons are simply given because they are reasons why we either don't own an iMac or don't like owning one. It's not about convincing you the reasons are valid, the reasons are valid enough for us that we would get an alternative.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Further, they are the ones claiming a market exists when one clearly does not, JUST BECAUSE they personally want the product themselves.
You know why it is and you know that's not it.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Apple is turning people away from the platform? You mean the Apple that setting records for sales, profiting in the billions, and gaining market share? That Apple?
Their desktop sales are lagging, profits are high because their products are overpriced and they make a lot of money in other products and the marketshare gain isn't due to desktop sales nor is it necessarily due to any of their computer products.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
There have been some good points made as to needs, such as separate monitor, cheaper RAM and not having the cash for AMc PRo. I just don't think that the demand is big enough for Apple to release it in conjunction with their other products already in the matrix.
So what you're saying is that we have good reasons but your only reason is you don't think enough people will buy it. Given what we know about where the new buyers will come from (PC land) and that they own mid-range towers, I think we can safely say the demand will be high enough.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
Can you imagine Apple, king of "It Just Works" having a retail store with FOUR different desktop offerings and soon to be THREE different laptop lines? Can you imagine trying to explain the difference between the Mini, the xMac, the iMac and Mac Pro to your average consumer?
Quite easily.
Mac Mini (entry level) -> media center, PC switcher, tryout model
xMac (mid level) -> prosumer, gamer
iMac (mid level designer model) -> AIO niche people, people who like a clean work space
Mac Pro (high end) -> people who need the most raw power, high end pros who need a workstation not a desktop
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics. That's what you're taking issue with right now. I say "market" and you say "subgroup." I say "logic" and you say "evidence."
It's not semantics if they have different meanings. You are trying to estimate a market based on logic i.e you are making up conclusions from your preconceptions, which is worthless. Snoopy was using the evidence that some Mac users are unhappy with Apple's lineup and PC users don't appear to be unhappy with towers.
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Originally Posted by SDW2001
The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users.
You don't really know that though, it's an assumption you keep making. The other assumption you keep making is that we are basing our opinions on that. We are giving good reasons why people prefer towers and the people who have those opinions covers a range far broader than the mid-tower advocates on this forum.
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Originally Posted by Frank777
the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
They manage it with all their other products. What separates a Macbook Pro from Dell laptops which are $500 or so less for the same spec? Apple makes it worth more simply due to design and their OS. Where are all the beautiful mid-range PCs? They are still all big ugly beige boxes or funky alien designs that just look absolutely terrible. If Apple made one like that G5 cube, PC users would be all over it. Who cares if they run Windows on it? Apple is a hardware company.
The best way to get them to switch is to do it in steps. Offer a form factor they are used to with the expansion they are used to and give them the system they are used to. Then keep switching the parts gradually until in 5 years they are OS X fanatics with octo core tablets.
Marvin, fantastic post with very valid counter points. I agree with everything you said except this:
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Originally Posted by Marvin
...
They are still all big ugly beige boxes or funky alien designs that just look absolutely terrible. If Apple made one like that G5 cube, PC users would be all over it. Who cares if they run Windows on it? Apple is a hardware company.
The PC industry has some fantastic cases, cases that are as good or better than apple's. I'd like to point out a few cases like Cooler Master's Cosmos, Silverstone's Temjin TJ09... I can name a few others.
Personally I used Cooler Master's Centurion 532 for my hack. I like it a lot and it came out very clean. A lot of these PCs look quite fantastic. I'm sure apple could out perform their cases with minimal effort.
"The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users."
I wonder what crystal ball he saw that in.
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way. That's how he keeps a finger on the pulse of the citizenry. He multiplies the number of letters by whatever factor he uses. There is no other way he can judge the mood of the people. Most people don't write their congressmen because they don't believe it will do any good.
Look at the number of threads and posts about the xMac. Multiply that number by X (?) and you'll find a huge number that feel the same way. They far outnumber the negative. The majority of Mac users don't know about this forum; use another one; or are too busy to post.
The AI posters of anti-xMax are very much minority. However, that minority still wants to rain on everyone else's parade. Please find some other way to get your rocks off.
I know we're on page 8 of this slugfest, but the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
Those who advocate an addition to the Mac line need to come up with one compelling feature Apple could offer on a Midtower that wouldn't be easily duplicated on a garden-variety Windows tower.
Until that feature emerges, we're just going in circles here.
The PC industry has some fantastic cases, cases that are as good or better than apple's. I'd like to point out a few cases like Cooler Master's Cosmos, Silverstone's Temjin TJ09... I can name a few others.
Personally I used Cooler Master's Centurion 532 for my hack. I like it a lot and it came out very clean. A lot of these PCs look quite fantastic. I'm sure apple could out perform their cases with minimal effort.
I don't know, I checked those models out and they still seem to have lights and transparent plastic on them:
Plus I'm not sure they'll be available in retail packages like a consumer would likely buy. Certainly you get more options again though so if they are to your tastes then it's another place where Apple is lacking. I'm sure I've seen a couple of PC cases that I thought looked nice.
I've never liked the iMac though, I actually thought they were going to fix it going to a metal enclosure and then they bring out the big shiny black eyed thing.
So are you saying you managed to get OS X running on your PC box? What sort of spec is it and does everything work as you'd expect, graphics card etc? Also, can you give a price for how much it was to build so we can get an idea about the real price range a mid-tower Mac would be?
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Originally Posted by sequitur
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way.
Exactly. This can be taken too far of course, it reminds me of the Family Guy episode when the FCC were dealing with a complaint:
"FCC Suit 1: Gentlemen, we got 20 calls about the David Hyde-Pierce incident. And as you know, one call equals a billion people, which means 20 billion people were offended by this. Needless to say, something must be done.
FCC Suit 2: Perhaps we should ask the chairman.
FCC Suit 1: Good idea. (to the chairman) Uh, sir, we're wondering what course of action you recommend regarding the Hyde-Pierce incident.
Cobra Commander (the chairman): You have to censor television, you fools!! Now, follow my orders!"
Damn Youtube keeps removing Fox's TV clips so I can't post the clip itself.
But yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to extrapolate stats and entirely unreasonable to assume that a handful of people here means that the market is so small as to be non-existant.
Even if you consider that 25% of Mini owners, 25% of iMac owners and 25% of Mac Pro owners might have preferred one, reasons being more power, separate display, lower cost/size respectively and that some portion of Windows PC users are waiting for one too then the market becomes substantial enough to warrant a product.
"The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users."
I wonder what crystal ball he saw that in.
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way. That's how he keeps a finger on the pulse of the citizenry. He multiplies the number of letters by whatever factor he uses. There is no other way he can judge the mood of the people. Most people don't write their congressmen because they don't believe it will do any good.
Look at the number of threads and posts about the xMac. Multiply that number by X (?) and you'll find a huge number that feel the same way. They far outnumber the negative. The majority of Mac users don't know about this forum; use another one; or are too busy to post.
The AI posters of anti-xMax are very much minority. However, that minority still wants to rain on everyone else's parade. Please find some other way to get your rocks off.
This argument cuts both ways. xMac proponents in the forums are very much the minority in comparison to the 600K/qtr desktop Mac buyers. The number of threads and posters is actually very small. It appears large because a very small minority is very vocal in tying the xMac to every damn topic they possibly can.
Arguably xMac proponents are raining on the parade of those that favor the current line up. Introduce an xMac at the price points discussed and you can write off the iMac as a viable product. Folks may think that's okay (and have said so repeatedly) given that "most users prefer a tower" but you can make the same argument about OSX itself. Most users prefer Windows. Therefore the extinction of a niche OS alternative is no more important than the extinction of the AIO alternative.
/shrug
Personally I'm no fan of the iMac but lets not attach some dubious ethical or moral high ground for the xMac. Success of the xMac will come at the expense of the iMac and its fans.
Your assertion that there are so many xMac supporters is dubious. Perhaps opponents are simply tired of the arguments and perhaps most folks aren't actual opponents as simply apathetic.
Meaning rain or shine, no one cares about your parade.
Those few that do care to rain on it are perhaps damn tired of the xMac topic being brought up in nearly every thread in the forum by a few zealot supporters. I would guess most folks that "oppose" the xMac simply feel that its not happening under Jobs and, all things being equal, Apple is far better off having Jobs over having an xMac.
If OSX was as compelling as we think it is then Apple would have larger market share regardless of AIO, tower, laptop, whatever.
Alas, no.
Prior to buying a G4 tower about 5 years ago, I had never liked the Macs we had at work - mainly because I never gave them a chance. I didn't find OS 9 and earlier "intuitive". Even when OS X came along, we continued using the older OS. One day, in CompUSA, I saw the 22" acd and knew I had to have it. No, the salesman said, it doesn't work with a PC. Drooling all over the acd, I bought the Mac so I could have that gorgeous acd. A few weeks later, I would have used any ugly screen to keep on using that "gorgeous" OS X that didn't give me the "blue screen of death" almost every day. It just worked (where have I heard that before?). I'd never buy another PC. The point is: To know it is to love it. I've 'sold' the Mac to my daughers, their boyfriends, my ex-wife, two close friends and several people on the job. One of the guys at work was a dyed in the wool PC user and swore he'd never use a Mac. I got him to try one for a week. That was enough to convince him. Vinea, OS X is compelling to anyone who gives it a chance. I think Apples market share is going to snowball - especially, IF Apple puts out a !@#$%^&* mini tower.
You guys who have been using only the Mac in the past probably don't appreciate it as much as we switchers do. The changes have come in increments to you. To me, it was like coming out of a tunnel.
Arguably xMac proponents are raining on the parade of those that favor the current line up. Introduce an xMac at the price points discussed and you can write off the iMac as a viable product. Folks may think that's okay (and have said so repeatedly) given that "most users prefer a tower" but you can make the same argument about OSX itself. Most users prefer Windows. Therefore the extinction of a niche OS alternative is no more important than the extinction of the AIO alternative.
/shrug
Personally I'm no fan of the iMac but lets not attach some dubious ethical or moral high ground for the xMac. Success of the xMac will come at the expense of the iMac and its fans.
I see a point in both computers. iMac for my folks, xMac for me. I believe both have a good sized market.
If an xMac at same price and slightly bigger margin/slightly less spent on components could totally dry up the corresponding iMac sales, then that would mean people prefer the xMac and are ready to make Apple even more money than they would with an iMac purchase. That hardly sounds bad for Apple. But frankly I think that's more hysteria than reality. "Oh noes they're taking away my iMacs!" The very nature of the pricing I'm talking about keeps iMac the best choice for most home use.
Comments
That was very well put snoopy.
2 things.
A) I have seen many many 'where is the mac tower?' threads, on just about every mac related forum. People yearn for it. It is brought countlessly. I'd like to see how many threads it's made on AI ALONE... by different people.
I know I was very happy with my G3.
Dude...one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics. That's what you're taking issue with right now. I say "market" and you say "subgroup." I saw "logic" and you say "evidence."
But whatever: The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users...and certainly not computer users in general. The "evidence" is worthless. So too would any survey of Windows users being "unhappy" with their midpro towers. That's a subjective measure. It reminds me of that line in the movie "Dave," where he takes issue with a government program that makes people feel good about a car they already bought.
What I'm saying is "reason it through." Wintel sells mostly towers. Therefore, people buy mostly towers. This has been the PC model for years and years. People think there are desktops and laptops and nothing else. The AIO doesn't work on that side. Why? This is speculation, but I think it's because the Wintel AIOs lack the advantages of the iMac AIO. Namely, Wintel does not have 1) Leading edge industrial design 2) The "cool" factor that coems with #1, 3) complete integration of hardware and software and 4) Mac OS X and it's suite of user friendly consumer software.
What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option. Once they realize what the iMac actually is, they like it. If they need more power, they'll buy a Mac pro. That's what I've seen.
Seriously, you have the college professor syndrome. You make assumptions without actually talking to anyone outside your own homogeneous group and based solely own your own biases. I don't know why we don't just ignore you. All you do in discussions is troll anyone who is outside your definition of some kind of Mac purity. The only answer you will accept is for everyone to turn over their ability to think to Apple.
The AIO doesn't work on that side. Why? This is speculation, but I think it's because the Wintel AIOs lack the advantages of the iMac AIO. Namely, Wintel does not have 1) Leading edge industrial design 2) The "cool" factor that coems with #1, 3) complete integration of hardware and software and 4) Mac OS X and it's suite of user friendly consumer software.
Sony has come out with some pretty cool looking AIOs. I don't think there's anything about OSX that makes it more suitable, or the only OS that is suitable, for an AIO design. IMO, the reason that AIOs haven't caught on for Windows is that if people want a small Desktop form factor, they buy a laptop (and also get portability you don't get with an AIO). If they want expandibility/upgradeability (and better bang/buck), they get a regular Tower.
What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option. Once they realize what the iMac actually is, they like it. If they need more power, they'll buy a Mac pro. That's what I've seen.
Thats a total generalization. I for one, don't want an AIO like the iMac. I want an mid-priced tower. It's not that I want more power that an iMac, I want to add a second HD, internally. I may want to use the monitor I have. Maybe in a couple years I'll want to add a HD DVD burner. Why do I have to over-spend on a MacPro to get this capibility?
I think if Mr. Jobs really wanted people to switch to a Mac, offering a Mid Tower would be the perfect model to lure them over. Afterall, it's what we're used to and like.
I think if Mr. Jobs really wanted people to switch to a Mac, offering a Mid Tower would be the perfect model to lure them over. Afterall, it's what we're used to and like.
I know we're on page 8 of this slugfest, but the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
Those who advocate an addition to the Mac line need to come up with one compelling feature Apple could offer on a Midtower that wouldn't be easily duplicated on a garden-variety Windows tower.
Until that feature emerges, we're just going in circles here.
Dude...one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics.
I don't think you mean that, exactly. I'm assuming you mean being picky about subtile differences in word usage. In this I agree with you. However, in my reply, I went out of the way to play down semantics. For example, we are talking about market segments, but I only used the word segment once, and even then put segment in parenthesis to down play it.
Yet in this discussion, we have some differences in meaning, which are important. Logic is a process by which we can prove something. Evidence is simply data by which we can support a theory. This is a very big difference. Also, regarding my use of the word subgroup, like the Mac or Windows subgroup, it was only to satisfy you if you happened to be picky about word usage. Since you're not, just ignore it.
Now, you say that any data about Mac and Windows users obtained from a forum or survey is worthless, a subjective measure. So be it if that is what you believe. Yet, in previous posts, you and others have said that if Mac users wanted a mid-tower, Apple would build it. For this statement, there is no evidence at all, just pure faith in how Apple operates.
What I'm saying is "reason it through." Wintel sells mostly towers. Therefore, people buy mostly towers.
And Apple sells mostly iMacs, therefore Mac users buy mostly iMacs. You have demonstrated nothing by your statement.
What I've not seen evidence of is a Wintel user walking into an Apple Store and not buying an Apple desktop because they don't see a midpro option.
That is simply ridiculous, unless you have actually interviewed Wintel users who visit Apple stores. (And obviously, some do buy the iMac.) In contrast, using taking data from AI forums we are in effect getting interviews with many Mac users who want a mid-tower, or some such Mac. As expected we get those who like the iMac too. No one is saying we all must like the same thing, only that many of us want a different choice, one that is not currently available.
Seriously, you have the college professor syndrome. You make assumptions without actually talking to anyone outside your own homogeneous group and based solely own your own biases. I don't know why we don't just ignore you. All you do in discussions is troll anyone who is outside your definition of some kind of Mac purity. The only answer you will accept is for everyone to turn over their ability to think to Apple.
Hey, watch that 'college professor syndrome' stuff. I'm a college professor. However, you're probably right in a lot of instances. This is my fourth career: Military; Treasury agent; corporate controller; and ta da, a college professor. One thing I pride myself on is keeping as open a mind as possible.
That's something that some (not naming names) AI naysayers seem not to be able to do. They don't seem to be content unless they're dragging others down to their level. During the cold war, the military was continuously reminded that people in 'some' countries didn't have the "keep up with the Joneses" attitude that Americans have. To level the playing field, Americans (and many other people) pull themselves up by the bootstraps to that next level. Then we want our kids to be even better. That attitude is partially responsible for making this country as great as it is.
Our enemy(s) had an attitude that they have to bring their neighbors down to where they are to level the playing field.
This is my round about way of saying that the naysayers here operate on that same basis. Find any way to drag down others to their level. Your quote above is dead on. We have to ignore them. To do otherwise is to give them a stage to air their crap. As long as we recognize their existence, they'll take that stage.
Hell, here I go on and on talking like a college professor. My bad.
I'm not telling them what they WANT, I'm telling them what they want is not what they NEED.
If someone needs a Raid setup, do they want or need two internal drives?
Also, someone wanted 4 Ram slots and you seemed to be ok with that and that's a want.
Wants and needs can't be separated easily. There are some things that people want badly enough that it borders on a need but that need will vary from person to person. I need matching displays but others can live with one glossy, one matte.
Whatever you call them, the reasons are simply given because they are reasons why we either don't own an iMac or don't like owning one. It's not about convincing you the reasons are valid, the reasons are valid enough for us that we would get an alternative.
Further, they are the ones claiming a market exists when one clearly does not, JUST BECAUSE they personally want the product themselves.
You know why it is and you know that's not it.
Apple is turning people away from the platform? You mean the Apple that setting records for sales, profiting in the billions, and gaining market share? That Apple?
Their desktop sales are lagging, profits are high because their products are overpriced and they make a lot of money in other products and the marketshare gain isn't due to desktop sales nor is it necessarily due to any of their computer products.
There have been some good points made as to needs, such as separate monitor, cheaper RAM and not having the cash for AMc PRo. I just don't think that the demand is big enough for Apple to release it in conjunction with their other products already in the matrix.
So what you're saying is that we have good reasons but your only reason is you don't think enough people will buy it. Given what we know about where the new buyers will come from (PC land) and that they own mid-range towers, I think we can safely say the demand will be high enough.
Can you imagine Apple, king of "It Just Works" having a retail store with FOUR different desktop offerings and soon to be THREE different laptop lines? Can you imagine trying to explain the difference between the Mini, the xMac, the iMac and Mac Pro to your average consumer?
Quite easily.
Mac Mini (entry level) -> media center, PC switcher, tryout model
xMac (mid level) -> prosumer, gamer
iMac (mid level designer model) -> AIO niche people, people who like a clean work space
Mac Pro (high end) -> people who need the most raw power, high end pros who need a workstation not a desktop
one thing you'll learn about me is that I do not enjoy nor tolerate semantics. That's what you're taking issue with right now. I say "market" and you say "subgroup." I say "logic" and you say "evidence."
It's not semantics if they have different meanings. You are trying to estimate a market based on logic i.e you are making up conclusions from your preconceptions, which is worthless. Snoopy was using the evidence that some Mac users are unhappy with Apple's lineup and PC users don't appear to be unhappy with towers.
The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users.
You don't really know that though, it's an assumption you keep making. The other assumption you keep making is that we are basing our opinions on that. We are giving good reasons why people prefer towers and the people who have those opinions covers a range far broader than the mid-tower advocates on this forum.
the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
They manage it with all their other products. What separates a Macbook Pro from Dell laptops which are $500 or so less for the same spec? Apple makes it worth more simply due to design and their OS. Where are all the beautiful mid-range PCs? They are still all big ugly beige boxes or funky alien designs that just look absolutely terrible. If Apple made one like that G5 cube, PC users would be all over it. Who cares if they run Windows on it? Apple is a hardware company.
The best way to get them to switch is to do it in steps. Offer a form factor they are used to with the expansion they are used to and give them the system they are used to. Then keep switching the parts gradually until in 5 years they are OS X fanatics with octo core tablets.
...
They are still all big ugly beige boxes or funky alien designs that just look absolutely terrible. If Apple made one like that G5 cube, PC users would be all over it. Who cares if they run Windows on it? Apple is a hardware company.
The PC industry has some fantastic cases, cases that are as good or better than apple's. I'd like to point out a few cases like Cooler Master's Cosmos, Silverstone's Temjin TJ09... I can name a few others.
Personally I used Cooler Master's Centurion 532 for my hack. I like it a lot and it came out very clean. A lot of these PCs look quite fantastic. I'm sure apple could out perform their cases with minimal effort.
"The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users."
I wonder what crystal ball he saw that in.
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way. That's how he keeps a finger on the pulse of the citizenry. He multiplies the number of letters by whatever factor he uses. There is no other way he can judge the mood of the people. Most people don't write their congressmen because they don't believe it will do any good.
Look at the number of threads and posts about the xMac. Multiply that number by X (?) and you'll find a huge number that feel the same way. They far outnumber the negative. The majority of Mac users don't know about this forum; use another one; or are too busy to post.
The AI posters of anti-xMax are very much minority. However, that minority still wants to rain on everyone else's parade. Please find some other way to get your rocks off.
I know we're on page 8 of this slugfest, but the simple fact is that Apple won't enter the Midtower market unless they have some 'angle' to it that makes an Apple tower look like it's worth $300. more than a Windows tower.
Those who advocate an addition to the Mac line need to come up with one compelling feature Apple could offer on a Midtower that wouldn't be easily duplicated on a garden-variety Windows tower.
Until that feature emerges, we're just going in circles here.
Hmmm, let me think. Oh, I know...how about OSX?
Hmmm, let me think. Oh, I know...how about OSX?
That says it all !
The PC industry has some fantastic cases, cases that are as good or better than apple's. I'd like to point out a few cases like Cooler Master's Cosmos, Silverstone's Temjin TJ09... I can name a few others.
Personally I used Cooler Master's Centurion 532 for my hack. I like it a lot and it came out very clean. A lot of these PCs look quite fantastic. I'm sure apple could out perform their cases with minimal effort.
I don't know, I checked those models out and they still seem to have lights and transparent plastic on them:
Plus I'm not sure they'll be available in retail packages like a consumer would likely buy. Certainly you get more options again though so if they are to your tastes then it's another place where Apple is lacking. I'm sure I've seen a couple of PC cases that I thought looked nice.
I've never liked the iMac though, I actually thought they were going to fix it going to a metal enclosure and then they bring out the big shiny black eyed thing.
So are you saying you managed to get OS X running on your PC box? What sort of spec is it and does everything work as you'd expect, graphics card etc? Also, can you give a price for how much it was to build so we can get an idea about the real price range a mid-tower Mac would be?
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way.
Exactly. This can be taken too far of course, it reminds me of the Family Guy episode when the FCC were dealing with a complaint:
"FCC Suit 1: Gentlemen, we got 20 calls about the David Hyde-Pierce incident. And as you know, one call equals a billion people, which means 20 billion people were offended by this. Needless to say, something must be done.
FCC Suit 2: Perhaps we should ask the chairman.
FCC Suit 1: Good idea. (to the chairman) Uh, sir, we're wondering what course of action you recommend regarding the Hyde-Pierce incident.
Cobra Commander (the chairman): You have to censor television, you fools!! Now, follow my orders!"
Damn Youtube keeps removing Fox's TV clips so I can't post the clip itself.
But yeah, it's perfectly reasonable to extrapolate stats and entirely unreasonable to assume that a handful of people here means that the market is so small as to be non-existant.
Even if you consider that 25% of Mini owners, 25% of iMac owners and 25% of Mac Pro owners might have preferred one, reasons being more power, separate display, lower cost/size respectively and that some portion of Windows PC users are waiting for one too then the market becomes substantial enough to warrant a product.
I don't know, I checked those models out and they still seem to have lights and transparent plastic on them:
How about this?
http://www.bestbuy.com/site/olspage....=1186003685992
Hmmm, let me think. Oh, I know...how about OSX?
If OSX was as compelling as we think it is then Apple would have larger market share regardless of AIO, tower, laptop, whatever.
Alas, no.
Quote:
"The point is this forum is not indicative of the majority of Mac users."
I wonder what crystal ball he saw that in.
A congressman knows that when he receives a negative or positive letter from a constituent, that there are X number of people out there who feel the same way. That's how he keeps a finger on the pulse of the citizenry. He multiplies the number of letters by whatever factor he uses. There is no other way he can judge the mood of the people. Most people don't write their congressmen because they don't believe it will do any good.
Look at the number of threads and posts about the xMac. Multiply that number by X (?) and you'll find a huge number that feel the same way. They far outnumber the negative. The majority of Mac users don't know about this forum; use another one; or are too busy to post.
The AI posters of anti-xMax are very much minority. However, that minority still wants to rain on everyone else's parade. Please find some other way to get your rocks off.
This argument cuts both ways. xMac proponents in the forums are very much the minority in comparison to the 600K/qtr desktop Mac buyers. The number of threads and posters is actually very small. It appears large because a very small minority is very vocal in tying the xMac to every damn topic they possibly can.
Arguably xMac proponents are raining on the parade of those that favor the current line up. Introduce an xMac at the price points discussed and you can write off the iMac as a viable product. Folks may think that's okay (and have said so repeatedly) given that "most users prefer a tower" but you can make the same argument about OSX itself. Most users prefer Windows. Therefore the extinction of a niche OS alternative is no more important than the extinction of the AIO alternative.
/shrug
Personally I'm no fan of the iMac but lets not attach some dubious ethical or moral high ground for the xMac. Success of the xMac will come at the expense of the iMac and its fans.
Your assertion that there are so many xMac supporters is dubious. Perhaps opponents are simply tired of the arguments and perhaps most folks aren't actual opponents as simply apathetic.
Meaning rain or shine, no one cares about your parade.
Those few that do care to rain on it are perhaps damn tired of the xMac topic being brought up in nearly every thread in the forum by a few zealot supporters. I would guess most folks that "oppose" the xMac simply feel that its not happening under Jobs and, all things being equal, Apple is far better off having Jobs over having an xMac.
If OSX was as compelling as we think it is then Apple would have larger market share regardless of AIO, tower, laptop, whatever.
Alas, no.
Prior to buying a G4 tower about 5 years ago, I had never liked the Macs we had at work - mainly because I never gave them a chance. I didn't find OS 9 and earlier "intuitive". Even when OS X came along, we continued using the older OS. One day, in CompUSA, I saw the 22" acd and knew I had to have it. No, the salesman said, it doesn't work with a PC. Drooling all over the acd, I bought the Mac so I could have that gorgeous acd. A few weeks later, I would have used any ugly screen to keep on using that "gorgeous" OS X that didn't give me the "blue screen of death" almost every day. It just worked (where have I heard that before?). I'd never buy another PC. The point is: To know it is to love it. I've 'sold' the Mac to my daughers, their boyfriends, my ex-wife, two close friends and several people on the job. One of the guys at work was a dyed in the wool PC user and swore he'd never use a Mac. I got him to try one for a week. That was enough to convince him. Vinea, OS X is compelling to anyone who gives it a chance. I think Apples market share is going to snowball - especially, IF Apple puts out a !@#$%^&* mini tower.
You guys who have been using only the Mac in the past probably don't appreciate it as much as we switchers do. The changes have come in increments to you. To me, it was like coming out of a tunnel.
Marvin the front of those two cases look hideous. I can't believe your even comparing them with a Mac case.
I've never seen something like the Mac Pro. Specially the interior.
For your "pleasure", here's the interior of one of the Mac Pro competitors: Vinea's famous Dell Precision 690 ($2000+)
And now one that would compete with a potential xMac, the Dell Dimension 9200 ($900+)
If anyone thinks there's no way to do better than that...
I've never seen something like the Mac Pro. Specially the interior.
For your "pleasure", here's the interior of one of the Mac Pro competitors: Vinea's famous Dell Precision 690 ($2000+)
And now one that would compete with a potential xMac, the Dell Dimension 9200 ($900+)
If anyone thinks there's no way to do better than that...
That's why most of Dell's sales are corporate/institutional.
Arguably xMac proponents are raining on the parade of those that favor the current line up. Introduce an xMac at the price points discussed and you can write off the iMac as a viable product. Folks may think that's okay (and have said so repeatedly) given that "most users prefer a tower" but you can make the same argument about OSX itself. Most users prefer Windows. Therefore the extinction of a niche OS alternative is no more important than the extinction of the AIO alternative.
/shrug
Personally I'm no fan of the iMac but lets not attach some dubious ethical or moral high ground for the xMac. Success of the xMac will come at the expense of the iMac and its fans.
I see a point in both computers. iMac for my folks, xMac for me. I believe both have a good sized market.
If an xMac at same price and slightly bigger margin/slightly less spent on components could totally dry up the corresponding iMac sales, then that would mean people prefer the xMac and are ready to make Apple even more money than they would with an iMac purchase. That hardly sounds bad for Apple. But frankly I think that's more hysteria than reality. "Oh noes they're taking away my iMacs!" The very nature of the pricing I'm talking about keeps iMac the best choice for most home use.