Oh? The iMac is great for power users who don't need PCI expansion. That amounts to MOST power users. The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
I think you'd be surprised to find just how much stuff gets designed on laptops. Even laptop HD's, which seem to be a point of discontention, don't really hold much back if you've put enough memory in it (which would seem to be an apt choice for a power user). The iMac is at least as powerful a tool as any laptop.
Also, still no takers on the home-brew CheapMac. I'm serious about this. If you guys really want an affordable, decent looking mac desktop, the best way is to design your own. I'm told it can be done.
Oh? The iMac is great for power users who don't need PCI expansion. That amounts to MOST power users. The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
.
Well I'm not a prosumer but, it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac.
1) PCI expansion
2) Better gpu options
3) Flexibility on monitors.
It's not me. I'm easily satisfied by the iMac. I may purchase one this fall.
Well I'm not a prosumer but, it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac. . . .
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
I'm starting to really regret staying on the Mac. All the b.s. that the piece of crap operating system called windows creates pales in comparison to the violent opposition you get from the zealots when you voice any kind of difference of opinion. You make a point and all you get back is something related to apple as if they're they were the entire computer industry or character assassination. If you don't agree with Apple lock, stock, and barrel you're either ignorant or stupid. This isn't the platform for the rest of us any more, it's platform for those who want to be part of a cult.
I'm starting to really regret staying on the Mac. All the b.s. that the piece of crap operating system called windows creates pales in comparison to the violent opposition you get from the zealots when you voice any kind of difference of opinion. You make a point and all you get back is something related to apple as if they're they were the entire computer industry or character assassination. If you don't agree with Apple lock, stock, and barrel you're either ignorant or stupid. This isn't the platform for the rest of us any more, it's platform for those who want to be part of a cult.
Excuse me? You will find similar idiots on any platform so grow up. Don't lump everybody into the zealot category. It's like saying all Iraqi's, or Americans, Canadians, or Brit's are a certain way. There are idiots all over the world, and there are also people endowed with better sense in the same places. Just because you are susceptible to the ravings of one group of idiots doesn't mean the ravings from any other group of idiots is any different.
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
You bring up good points. Not all power users or prosumers are the same. Most can't agree on the features that an x Mac ought to have for instance. A big distinction should be made between want and need. Most prosumers want these features not need them. If they really need them then they should get a Mac Pro as they already have these features.
But in the end it's all about giving customers what they think they want not what they need.
The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
Maybe so but that was two years ago and this is now so why pay for new hardware that works like old hardware? I'm sure the computers Apple ship are far more powerful than the ones they used to help put people on the moon but it doesn't mean we should just be content with whatever comes along. When you consider products, you look at the competition and in the desktop arena, Apple's offerings are weak. I think their laptops are great (except not enough size options) but the desktop lineup not at all.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
The iMac is at least as powerful a tool as any laptop.
That's great but maybe you forget that it's a desktop. When you start justifying a desktop by saying it's as powerful as a laptop then something's clearly wrong.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Splinemodel
Also, still no takers on the home-brew CheapMac. I'm serious about this. If you guys really want an affordable, decent looking mac desktop, the best way is to design your own. I'm told it can be done.
If it can be done without hacking OS X, that sounds like a good project but prosumers are too busy struggling to get work done on the lame hardware Apple keep shipping. Also, I find replies to criticisms that involve critics making a similar achievement quite naive. If someone criticizes a movie, you don't say well make your own then. You may be content with what Apple offer but that doesn't mean that everyone else should be too. That's like saying hey I like chocolate ice cream therefore I don't feel there needs to be any other flavours, people should just learn to like chocolate.
I actually like the imac spec especially now it goes up to the 2.8GHz but I'd quite like an nVidia GPU, dual hard drives for a RAID setup and I don't want a 24" mirror with it. But I can't configure that option. I'm sure I could force myself to like it but I can also force myself to put up with Windows and just use superior, cheaper PC hardware. It's a tough decision to make as it means transitioning lots of software but as I've said before, Apple are pushing me and a large number of people in the wrong direction.
Most prosumers want these features not need them. If they really need them then they should get a Mac Pro as they already have these features.
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
No Mac user should have to suffer Wintel PC envy. It's supposed to be the other way around, right?
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
What do you do? BenRoethig seems to think this a personal thing I have against him: not the case. I just don't understand prosumers. As I know it, "prosumer" is basically just a code word for young-ish gamers. If you want to be able to replace the video card and install big disks for usage in games and media hoarding, just come out and say it. For that purpose, I agree it would be nice to have a cheap tower mac.
Marvin:
The argument about "why have a desktop iMac that's only as good as a laptop" is kind of dumb. The iMac is cheap and comes with a big screen and disk.
As for the PC hacks required to run Mac OS X on commodity PCs, I would assume that some hardware hacks are required to make it work well (i.e. no hacking the OS). Given the success of chipping game consoles (and the recent iPhone hack), there's definitely a way.
I also like this line: "prosumers are struggling to get work done on lame hardware." What are you guys working on? I'm working on an iMac and a PC laptop, designing industrial radio products. The work involves 3D CAD, programming, circuit design, and a fair amount of document making in Adobe. I don't require more feature-rich hardware. What do you work on?
I have a music production studio. I do MIDI background music tracks and also live recording of instruments and vocals. I have a PCI 24-bit A/D converter installed in a dual G4 PowerMac for now. Works great, so I don't have an immediate need. I'm concerned about my future.
I use Logic software. Some have claimed to run Logic on a Mini, but I wouldn't want to go that low in performance. It's certain I don't need a Xeon workstation however.
Quote:
As I know it, "prosumer" is basically just a code word for young-ish gamers. If you want to be able to replace the video card and install big disks for usage in games and media hoarding, just come out and say it. For that purpose, I agree it would be nice to have a cheap tower mac.
I haven't heard that. I just call them gamers. If Apple comes out with a mid tower, I'll keep it in mind for my son too. He's a gamer.
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
No Mac user should have to suffer Wintel PC envy. It's supposed to be the other way around, right?
I don't want you to suffer spec envy either. But if you need these features why are you waiting for an xMac when you can have a Mac Pro with these features and more? Sure it may cost more but the difference is probably only $2000. If you have a business that relies on a Mac to get work done that's not that much money. In other words, if $2000 (the cost difference between an xMac and a Mac Pro) is the difference between success and failure of your business then you've got some soul searching to do.
The xMac is for enthusiasts. If you need it for work, then get the Mac Pro.
I have a music production studio. I do MIDI background music tracks and also live recording of instruments and vocals. I have a PCI 24-bit A/D converter installed in a dual G4 PowerMac for now. Works great, so I don't have an immediate need. I'm concerned about my future.
I use Logic software. Some have claimed to run Logic on a Mini, but I wouldn't want to go that low in performance. It's certain I don't need a Xeon workstation however.
Maybe this is not the case for the pro audio space, but for most pro spaces I know of, the software cost is much higher than the hardware cost. This is why it's hard to understand why the Mac Pro is too expensive for pro usage. It's the difference between $10k and $11k. I know that my engineering software costs a total of $25k. In this case, having a Mac Pro vs. a cheap PC tower is less impactful than opting for the integrated sat-nav on a mid-range car purchase.
I don't want you to suffer spec envy either. But if you need these features why are you waiting for an xMac when you can have a Mac Pro with these features and more? Sure it may cost more but the difference is probably only $2000. If you have a business that relies on a Mac to get work done that's not that much money. In other words, if $2000 (the cost difference between an xMac and a Mac Pro) is the difference between success and failure of your business then you've got some soul searching to do.
The xMac is for enthusiasts. If you need it for work, then get the Mac Pro.
Did you read my post just before yours? It's working fine in a Dual G4 PowerMac. A Xeon workstation would be overkill for what I do now. I'm looking to the future, when I may have software that needs more performance, but still not a workstation.
Some of you out there have Apple's Logic running on a Mac Mini. Actually, a Mini may provide a little more performance than I have now.
By the way, if I look at it strictly as a business, I would buy the cheapest computer that does the job, so it would be a Mini. I like to get some stuff off the desk and onto PCI cards, which is not always the cheapest way to go.
Did you read my post just before yours? It's working fine in a Dual G4 PowerMac. A Xeon workstation would be overkill for what I do now. I'm looking to the future, when I may have software that needs more performance, but still not a workstation.
Some of you out there have Apple's Logic running on a Mac Mini. Actually, a Mini may provide a little more performance than I have now.
By the way, if I look at it strictly as a business, I would buy the cheapest computer that does the job, so it would be a Mini. I like to get some stuff off the desk and onto PCI cards, which is not always the cheapest way to go.
I think a mini would be a lot faster than your dual g4 machine.
What's your objection to the iMac. Do you prefer your current display?
Maybe this is not the case for the pro audio space, but for most pro spaces I know of, the software cost is much higher than the hardware cost. This is why it's hard to understand why the Mac Pro is too expensive for pro usage. It's the difference between $10k and $11k. I know that my engineering software costs a total of $25k.
Logic costs $999. It does both MIDI synthesis of instruments and live audio. I just need a Mac Mini, plus a large external HDD, and more USB ports for external 24-bit A/D converter and a USB MIDI box to connect a dumb keyboard. No hardware generators are needed using Logic. I'm using an old Power Mac, MDD, to get stuff off the desk. I'm a neatness freak.
Oh, BTW, you can get started in this using Logic Express for $299 or $150 at student discount.
What's your objection to the iMac. Do you prefer your current display?
I want PIC, or PCI-e, slots to get stuff off the desk, like A/D converter, MIDI interface and a second, big HDD. Also, why pay for another display when I'm happy with my 22 inch ViewSonic?
I agree that a Mac Mini would be better performance, but I'd have the clutter. If the time comes when I need more performance, I'll buy a Mac Mini Tower, if Apple makes one. Otherwise I'll buy a used Mac Pro on eBay.
PC companies like Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc. don't make user-configurable mid-towers because end-users want them to end desktop clutter or use their own favorite monitor, or pick what graphics board they want to run games or pro-ware on.
They make mid-towers because they sell gazillions of them to corporate business buyers. All of us forum posters just tag along on the outer fringes, fighting over the "scraps" they have left over after a big blanket sale to the like of a GE, or Sprint, or IBM, or dozens of others.
They give you the ability to upgrade because it would cost them more to make a closed box you can't open, not because they give a whit about whether you want an Nvidia or ATI board du jour.
Apple doesn't have the luxury of selling to that 90+% of all computer buyers. They make what they can get rid of and not be stuck with a lot of it. They are very much into how they look, because the "cool factor" of the Apple computer helps sell it against the expansion possibilities of the generic PC.
Ah, good point about business use of desktops, but I think we know that business most often buys these. Yet, we are discussing how the xMac, mini tower or whatever you call it, affects us, because Apple hasn't made a push into the business desktop that I can see. Past threads have discussed business needs, however.
I wish Apple would aggressively go after the business desktop market. Then we would surely get an xMac, whatever, to buy for ourselves.
Comments
The iMac isn't for prosumers.
Oh? The iMac is great for power users who don't need PCI expansion. That amounts to MOST power users. The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
I think you'd be surprised to find just how much stuff gets designed on laptops. Even laptop HD's, which seem to be a point of discontention, don't really hold much back if you've put enough memory in it (which would seem to be an apt choice for a power user). The iMac is at least as powerful a tool as any laptop.
Also, still no takers on the home-brew CheapMac. I'm serious about this. If you guys really want an affordable, decent looking mac desktop, the best way is to design your own. I'm told it can be done.
Oh? The iMac is great for power users who don't need PCI expansion. That amounts to MOST power users. The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
.
Well I'm not a prosumer but, it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac.
1) PCI expansion
2) Better gpu options
3) Flexibility on monitors.
It's not me. I'm easily satisfied by the iMac. I may purchase one this fall.
Well I'm not a prosumer but, it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac.
1) PCI expansion
2) Better gpu options
3) Flexibility on monitors.
It's not me. I'm easily satisfied by the iMac. I may purchase one this fall.
4) Full size full speed optical drive
5) room for second hard drive.
6) Easily accessible and abundant front ports.
. . . it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac.
1) PCI expansion
2) Better gpu options
3) Flexibility on monitors.
You've got my number.
Well I'm not a prosumer but, it seems like prosumers like or think they need three things not addressed by the iMac. . . .
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
I'm starting to really regret staying on the Mac. All the b.s. that the piece of crap operating system called windows creates pales in comparison to the violent opposition you get from the zealots when you voice any kind of difference of opinion. You make a point and all you get back is something related to apple as if they're they were the entire computer industry or character assassination. If you don't agree with Apple lock, stock, and barrel you're either ignorant or stupid. This isn't the platform for the rest of us any more, it's platform for those who want to be part of a cult.
I'm starting to really regret staying on the Mac. All the b.s. that the piece of crap operating system called windows creates pales in comparison to the violent opposition you get from the zealots when you voice any kind of difference of opinion. You make a point and all you get back is something related to apple as if they're they were the entire computer industry or character assassination. If you don't agree with Apple lock, stock, and barrel you're either ignorant or stupid. This isn't the platform for the rest of us any more, it's platform for those who want to be part of a cult.
Excuse me? You will find similar idiots on any platform so grow up. Don't lump everybody into the zealot category. It's like saying all Iraqi's, or Americans, Canadians, or Brit's are a certain way. There are idiots all over the world, and there are also people endowed with better sense in the same places. Just because you are susceptible to the ravings of one group of idiots doesn't mean the ravings from any other group of idiots is any different.
Well, then this is a matter of difference between "prosumer" and the more relevant term, "power-user." I can say with certainty that I am a power-user. In fact, I'm a full-blown creative pro. Apparently I'm not a prosumer, though, since I don't covet features that are of no use to me. At one time, back in the nineties, I was fairly insistent on having these things: expansion, disk bays, etc, because I had a video hobby. It took 3 weeks to render a 90 second scene. But modern computers are so good that even a laptop can render the same scene in underan hour, import and export video without a hitch, and do much more. I remember buying a $500 capture card and Ultra-SCSI for an already expensive mac tower. These things aren't necessary anymore, even for HD video. For audio, you can do relatively well for yourself via USB audio devices. I'm just not sure why many people need the features of a tower machine anymore.
On that note, I'll go on record (again) by saying that prosumers are frivolous. There's nothing necessarily bad about that, but just realize that without applicable reasons for coveting any of these things, the prosumer crowd is being kind of silly. It's like buying a fast car without first knowing how to drive.
Still no takers on the homebrew project. More evidence of the frivolity of the prosumer!
You bring up good points. Not all power users or prosumers are the same. Most can't agree on the features that an x Mac ought to have for instance. A big distinction should be made between want and need. Most prosumers want these features not need them. If they really need them then they should get a Mac Pro as they already have these features.
But in the end it's all about giving customers what they think they want not what they need.
The iMac's specs are as good as those of the stratospheric workstations of 2 years ago, and, in most cases, the use-cases of power users haven't changed that much since then.
Maybe so but that was two years ago and this is now so why pay for new hardware that works like old hardware? I'm sure the computers Apple ship are far more powerful than the ones they used to help put people on the moon but it doesn't mean we should just be content with whatever comes along. When you consider products, you look at the competition and in the desktop arena, Apple's offerings are weak. I think their laptops are great (except not enough size options) but the desktop lineup not at all.
The iMac is at least as powerful a tool as any laptop.
That's great but maybe you forget that it's a desktop. When you start justifying a desktop by saying it's as powerful as a laptop then something's clearly wrong.
Also, still no takers on the home-brew CheapMac. I'm serious about this. If you guys really want an affordable, decent looking mac desktop, the best way is to design your own. I'm told it can be done.
If it can be done without hacking OS X, that sounds like a good project but prosumers are too busy struggling to get work done on the lame hardware Apple keep shipping. Also, I find replies to criticisms that involve critics making a similar achievement quite naive. If someone criticizes a movie, you don't say well make your own then. You may be content with what Apple offer but that doesn't mean that everyone else should be too. That's like saying hey I like chocolate ice cream therefore I don't feel there needs to be any other flavours, people should just learn to like chocolate.
I actually like the imac spec especially now it goes up to the 2.8GHz but I'd quite like an nVidia GPU, dual hard drives for a RAID setup and I don't want a 24" mirror with it. But I can't configure that option. I'm sure I could force myself to like it but I can also force myself to put up with Windows and just use superior, cheaper PC hardware. It's a tough decision to make as it means transitioning lots of software but as I've said before, Apple are pushing me and a large number of people in the wrong direction.
Most prosumers want these features not need them. If they really need them then they should get a Mac Pro as they already have these features.
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
No Mac user should have to suffer Wintel PC envy. It's supposed to be the other way around, right?
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
What do you do? BenRoethig seems to think this a personal thing I have against him: not the case. I just don't understand prosumers. As I know it, "prosumer" is basically just a code word for young-ish gamers. If you want to be able to replace the video card and install big disks for usage in games and media hoarding, just come out and say it. For that purpose, I agree it would be nice to have a cheap tower mac.
Marvin:
The argument about "why have a desktop iMac that's only as good as a laptop" is kind of dumb. The iMac is cheap and comes with a big screen and disk.
As for the PC hacks required to run Mac OS X on commodity PCs, I would assume that some hardware hacks are required to make it work well (i.e. no hacking the OS). Given the success of chipping game consoles (and the recent iPhone hack), there's definitely a way.
I also like this line: "prosumers are struggling to get work done on lame hardware." What are you guys working on? I'm working on an iMac and a PC laptop, designing industrial radio products. The work involves 3D CAD, programming, circuit design, and a fair amount of document making in Adobe. I don't require more feature-rich hardware. What do you work on?
What do you do?
I have a music production studio. I do MIDI background music tracks and also live recording of instruments and vocals. I have a PCI 24-bit A/D converter installed in a dual G4 PowerMac for now. Works great, so I don't have an immediate need. I'm concerned about my future.
I use Logic software. Some have claimed to run Logic on a Mini, but I wouldn't want to go that low in performance. It's certain I don't need a Xeon workstation however.
As I know it, "prosumer" is basically just a code word for young-ish gamers. If you want to be able to replace the video card and install big disks for usage in games and media hoarding, just come out and say it. For that purpose, I agree it would be nice to have a cheap tower mac.
I haven't heard that. I just call them gamers. If Apple comes out with a mid tower, I'll keep it in mind for my son too. He's a gamer.
Bull. I shouldn't have to buy a Xeon workstation if I don't need such horsepower. I'll take a somewhat wimpier Mac that gives me 2 HDD bays, a choice of graphics cards, plus two more PCI-e slots, at least one of these a full size. Yes, I'll use every bay and slot.
No Mac user should have to suffer Wintel PC envy. It's supposed to be the other way around, right?
I don't want you to suffer spec envy either. But if you need these features why are you waiting for an xMac when you can have a Mac Pro with these features and more? Sure it may cost more but the difference is probably only $2000. If you have a business that relies on a Mac to get work done that's not that much money. In other words, if $2000 (the cost difference between an xMac and a Mac Pro) is the difference between success and failure of your business then you've got some soul searching to do.
The xMac is for enthusiasts. If you need it for work, then get the Mac Pro.
I have a music production studio. I do MIDI background music tracks and also live recording of instruments and vocals. I have a PCI 24-bit A/D converter installed in a dual G4 PowerMac for now. Works great, so I don't have an immediate need. I'm concerned about my future.
I use Logic software. Some have claimed to run Logic on a Mini, but I wouldn't want to go that low in performance. It's certain I don't need a Xeon workstation however.
Maybe this is not the case for the pro audio space, but for most pro spaces I know of, the software cost is much higher than the hardware cost. This is why it's hard to understand why the Mac Pro is too expensive for pro usage. It's the difference between $10k and $11k. I know that my engineering software costs a total of $25k. In this case, having a Mac Pro vs. a cheap PC tower is less impactful than opting for the integrated sat-nav on a mid-range car purchase.
I don't want you to suffer spec envy either. But if you need these features why are you waiting for an xMac when you can have a Mac Pro with these features and more? Sure it may cost more but the difference is probably only $2000. If you have a business that relies on a Mac to get work done that's not that much money. In other words, if $2000 (the cost difference between an xMac and a Mac Pro) is the difference between success and failure of your business then you've got some soul searching to do.
The xMac is for enthusiasts. If you need it for work, then get the Mac Pro.
Did you read my post just before yours? It's working fine in a Dual G4 PowerMac. A Xeon workstation would be overkill for what I do now. I'm looking to the future, when I may have software that needs more performance, but still not a workstation.
Some of you out there have Apple's Logic running on a Mac Mini. Actually, a Mini may provide a little more performance than I have now.
By the way, if I look at it strictly as a business, I would buy the cheapest computer that does the job, so it would be a Mini. I like to get some stuff off the desk and onto PCI cards, which is not always the cheapest way to go.
Did you read my post just before yours? It's working fine in a Dual G4 PowerMac. A Xeon workstation would be overkill for what I do now. I'm looking to the future, when I may have software that needs more performance, but still not a workstation.
Some of you out there have Apple's Logic running on a Mac Mini. Actually, a Mini may provide a little more performance than I have now.
By the way, if I look at it strictly as a business, I would buy the cheapest computer that does the job, so it would be a Mini. I like to get some stuff off the desk and onto PCI cards, which is not always the cheapest way to go.
I think a mini would be a lot faster than your dual g4 machine.
What's your objection to the iMac. Do you prefer your current display?
Maybe this is not the case for the pro audio space, but for most pro spaces I know of, the software cost is much higher than the hardware cost. This is why it's hard to understand why the Mac Pro is too expensive for pro usage. It's the difference between $10k and $11k. I know that my engineering software costs a total of $25k.
Logic costs $999. It does both MIDI synthesis of instruments and live audio. I just need a Mac Mini, plus a large external HDD, and more USB ports for external 24-bit A/D converter and a USB MIDI box to connect a dumb keyboard. No hardware generators are needed using Logic. I'm using an old Power Mac, MDD, to get stuff off the desk. I'm a neatness freak.
Oh, BTW, you can get started in this using Logic Express for $299 or $150 at student discount.
What's your objection to the iMac. Do you prefer your current display?
I want PIC, or PCI-e, slots to get stuff off the desk, like A/D converter, MIDI interface and a second, big HDD. Also, why pay for another display when I'm happy with my 22 inch ViewSonic?
I agree that a Mac Mini would be better performance, but I'd have the clutter. If the time comes when I need more performance, I'll buy a Mac Mini Tower, if Apple makes one. Otherwise I'll buy a used Mac Pro on eBay.
PC companies like Dell, HP, Toshiba, etc. don't make user-configurable mid-towers because end-users want them to end desktop clutter or use their own favorite monitor, or pick what graphics board they want to run games or pro-ware on.
They make mid-towers because they sell gazillions of them to corporate business buyers. All of us forum posters just tag along on the outer fringes, fighting over the "scraps" they have left over after a big blanket sale to the like of a GE, or Sprint, or IBM, or dozens of others.
They give you the ability to upgrade because it would cost them more to make a closed box you can't open, not because they give a whit about whether you want an Nvidia or ATI board du jour.
Apple doesn't have the luxury of selling to that 90+% of all computer buyers. They make what they can get rid of and not be stuck with a lot of it. They are very much into how they look, because the "cool factor" of the Apple computer helps sell it against the expansion possibilities of the generic PC.
Wow, can't believe nobody here REALLY GETS IT.
Ah, good point about business use of desktops, but I think we know that business most often buys these. Yet, we are discussing how the xMac, mini tower or whatever you call it, affects us, because Apple hasn't made a push into the business desktop that I can see. Past threads have discussed business needs, however.
I wish Apple would aggressively go after the business desktop market. Then we would surely get an xMac, whatever, to buy for ourselves.