I think this is the first sensible thing you said in your entire reply, to let's start here.
Right...because the people that are clamoring for this product are "sensible." Jesus.
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It's true. We must consider the Mac Mini if we do not need a Mac Pro. However, this does not mean we are satisfied with the Mac Mini for our application.
OK, then buy an iMac.
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I for one will would prefer a lower cost tower. There is not such a Mac, so someday I will buy a Mac Pro that is used and within my budget. This purchase will not contribute to Apple's bottom line at all.
Good for you. Then buy the used Mac Pro. Let Apple fend for itself. The point is the SIZE of the market
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I find it amusing what you suggest I do about the situation.
Uh...don't bitch about a mythical product you don't actually need. How about that?
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Make more money? Very helpful advice. Please talk to my boss. Next you say to buy a machine in my price range. Yes! That's it -- as soon as Apple sells a Mac Mini Tower. Thanks for the show of support.
Buy an iMac, which includes a great display and is faster than the Mini. It also has great software included.
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Now here is a real jewel. I ask for proof for your assertion that there is little or no demand for a lower-price tower. So, what do you reply?
See above. The burden of proof is on YOU...to show that there IS a market. Try reading please. This is not how marketing works. The burden is on the person advocating such a product.
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Of course! Why didn't I see the obvious? The fact that Apple hasn't made a lower-priced tower is proof that there is no demand? Come on. Give us credit for having the brains to see the illogic of your statement.
Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand Apple would release it? I mean think it through. Apple, like any other company, carefully plans it's introductions. They have products filling all the segments.
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I'd keep going, but this is grinding me down. If you don't like the thread, don't read it. Stick to the BD vs. HD-DVD discussion where you make a heck of a lot more sense. Sorry if I've been offensive. Really sorry, but damn it, you got me all worked up.
\
It's not just this thread. It's the utter myopia and stupidity of it all. It's the multitude of threads with you guys droning on about the midpro tower that's not coming, thinking all the while how stupid Apple is for now making one. And the real reason you want one? Because you're too poor to afford a Mac pro and your ego can't handle buying a used one or an iMac. Therefore Apple should meet your needs! I mean, what's wrong with them! Look at all these people that want the thing. Stupid Apple!
You're saying WE aren't sensible? Get over yourself.
I don't want an iMac, I realize this bothers you for some reason but guess what, I don't care.
Are you selling a used MacPro for $1200-1500? No? What a surprise, get a better answer.
Mythical? until recently there has always been a headless, somewhat expandable Mac in the mid-range.
See above and while you're at it realize I also don't care how *great* the display is.
Burden of proof? Ok let's look at the Windows based PC market which has more suppliers, hmm not a whole lot of AIOs being sold. I'd have to say the Mac based PC market is missing a core product from it's line-up.
Apple is controlled by Steve Jobs who while he's had a few very good ideas also has some that aren't exactly in the same ballpark. Mac Cube w/ Powermac pricing anyone? So yes I'd have to say they would ignore market demands.
You claim we're the ones being myopic and we're being stupid for wanting something. Thank YOU for having an open mind. Maybe it isn't coming, maybe it is you never know w/ Apple (iPod, Mini, and iPhone to name a few).
Personally I've found your last few posts on this subject to be inflammatory and derogatory w/ nothing constructive being added. For someone w/ nearly 8k posts I'd expect more respect for your fellow forum users.
It's a very big market. How do we know? By using a reliable marketing tool, a test market -- more predictable than a poll or survey. What test market? Why, it's what's selling on the Window side. Apple doesn't even need to pay for these marketing results. This is what the rest of us are relying on, not on our personal opinions as you keep telling us.
So then, what are you relying on to tell us there is no market? You haven't' said what it is. Instead, you say the burden of proof is on us. Okay, we are giving you hard numbers. Just look at what is selling on the Window side. I'd like to see what you have to offer for your evidence now.
This is not new. I've referred to it before, but you chose to ignore it, and instead tell me I should buy an iMac.
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Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand Apple would release it?
Your statement is not proof of anything, and Apple just continues to ignore the kind of computer that best satisfies the prosumer market.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
Moot point if you're going external anyway. You're not actually using the internal speakers to do your audio editing, are you?
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2. iMac avoids tower clutter
Or replaces one neat tower and screen with an iMac, a screen, four external boxes, four power cables and four FW cables.
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3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
Suppose I have two already? What if I have no more room on my desk? (Incidentally, I don't.) What if have use for exactly one 24" and no more? (Nope, can't sell the old display. Another desktop computer, a game console and a TV tuner need it to plug into.)
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4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
Okay, where's my external Geforce 8800GTS "graphics device"?
All you have succeeded in is listing why you are fine with an iMac. It doesn't automatically follow anyone else is.
Moot point if you're going external anyway. You're not actually using the internal speakers to do your audio editing, are you?Or replaces one neat tower and screen with an iMac, a screen, four external boxes, four power cables and four FW cables.Suppose I have two already? What if I have no more room on my desk? (Incidentally, I don't.) What if have use for exactly one 24" and no more? (Nope, can't sell the old display. Another desktop computer, a game console and a TV tuner need it to plug into.)Okay, where's my external Geforce 8800GTS "graphics device"?
All you have succeeded in is listing why you are fine with an iMac. It doesn't automatically follow anyone else is.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
I can't speak for others, but there's some very big limitations to using an iMac. Some of these limitations are deal breakers. Just go to http://www.dpreview.com and look in the Mac forum. There's lots of people there who will tell you that a glossy screen (even a good one like on the 24" iMac) cannot be calibrated well enough for preparing photos for print.
Others would like two hard drives for backup. No can do on an iMac unless you use an external disk.
For me it's the screen:
I don't like the glossy screen. I'm not as picky as the people on dpreview, but I still don't like the colors
I don't like the reflections and glare from a glossy screen. Sticking an anti-glare stick-on kind of hurts the "beautifully integrated" property of the iMac
The screen points slightly upwards and is non-tiltable. I have a 3-year old that keeps coming and saying, "daddy, show me the picture!" She's way too short to see a screen standing on a desk and tilted upwards.
The screen is wide. I never watch movies on the computer, but I do read text and PDF files. I would much rather have a 4:3 aspect ratio. That means I can't get a screen from Apple
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
You basically nullified your own post within itself. It's obviously hard to find good reasons why there is no need for a real desktop from Apple. You obviously cant without complete contradiction.
Honestly I don't need one because I have always been an up-grader that uses a PowerMac. But I do see the need for it especially when potential switchers keep coming into the forum and asking the same 1st post question. It's always about something between the Mac Pro, and the iMac. 1st post is usually their last post when people tell them to buy an iMac. I wouldn't buy one, and I normally wouldn't recommend one if they were interested in using some Semi-Pro applications. Typically thats where I see the gaping hole.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
But I do, not because I exactly love the thing, but because there was no other option. It's fine for say, my 12-year old sister, but it really does not meet my needs at all
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1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
You're comparing the speakers on an iMac to the alert speaker on a tower and thinking its a valid point? 100% of tower users have 20, 2.1, 5.1, or 7.1 system.
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2. iMac avoids tower clutter
Having owned towers I can tell you that is complete BS. It only applies to those who are perfectly happy to live with one hard drive (forgoing Time machine) and waiting forever when installing software or burning a disk using the slow as molasses notebook drive. If you're using an iMac and you're more prosumer minded, it creates desktop clutter.
The tower sits under my desk with only the display on my desk. The hard drives and optical drives are in the tower using the tower's power supply. With the iMac I'm going to need an external burner and an external drive drive both take space on my desk and surge protector, have visible cabling on my desk, are no where near as reliable as internal drives, and cost 2-3 times more as internal drives
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3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
You need an awfully big desk for two wide screen displays.
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4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
Where's the external device for e-SATA if it replaces USB2.0 and firewire as the external connection of choice? Right I'm supposed to help out Apple and magically come with with another $2000.
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5. No one really upgrades
That's news to me. I must have not done that video card upgrade in my mother's PC or the countless RAM upgrades or the video card upgrade in my G3. My uncle must have not out that radeon x850 in his computer either. Please people stop confusing your own biases and Steve's reality distortion fields as sources of fact. It just makes us look ignorant.
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Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of.
You're comparing a large bulky laptop with a desktop? Completely different set of rules.
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So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
No you will by an iMac because it suites YOUR needs.
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Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
It's good you'll be happy with an iMac, but none of this makes you the ultimate authority on what all users should need.
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Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
No, like I said it moves the clutter to the top of the desk where it is visible instead of under my desk where it is not.
You're saying WE aren't sensible? Get over yourself.
Uh, who's upset here? It has nothing to do with my getting over myself, whatever that's supposed to mean. Those supporting this product are not living in reality.
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I don't want an iMac, I realize this bothers you for some reason but guess what, I don't care.
It doesn't bother me at all. But I am curious as to why you don't want one. It's much more sensible than clamoring for a non-existent product with the same capabilities and no display.
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Are you selling a used MacPro for $1200-1500? No? What a surprise, get a better answer.
That's what you'd pay for the high end mythical tower, anyway.
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Mythical? until recently there has always been a headless, somewhat expandable Mac in the mid-range.
Uh, no there hasn't. Try being more wrong next time.
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See above and while you're at it realize I also don't care how *great* the display is.
That's your problem. Maybe you'll get lucky and Apple will release a machine that costs as much as an iMac, does the same thing exactly, and doesn't include a display. Happy buying.
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Burden of proof? Ok let's look at the Windows based PC market which has more suppliers, hmm not a whole lot of AIOs being sold. I'd have to say the Mac based PC market is missing a core product from it's line-up.
Yeah, 'cause Apple has always tried to go after the beige box buying Windows market with the same kind of products. People buy them because that's what available. Do you see a good iMac alternative? There aren't many.
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Apple is controlled by Steve Jobs who while he's had a few very good ideas also has some that aren't exactly in the same ballpark. Mac Cube w/ Powermac pricing anyone? So yes I'd have to say they would ignore market demands.
They also learn from their mistakes.
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You claim we're the ones being myopic and we're being stupid for wanting something. Thank YOU for having an open mind. Maybe it isn't coming, maybe it is you never know w/ Apple (iPod, Mini, and iPhone to name a few).
It's not that I think you're stupid exactly. It's the reasons WHY you want the product. You don't really have a need for it. Apple offers perfectly good alternatives, but you don't like them because of two reasons. 1) They're too expensive and 2) You don't like the image of the iMac. See, you're a POWER USER! You want EXPANDABILITY, like PCI SLOTS and....well, PCI SLOTS!
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Personally I've found your last few posts on this subject to be inflammatory and derogatory w/ nothing constructive being added. For someone w/ nearly 8k posts I'd expect more respect for your fellow forum users.
I'm not the one crying and pounding the computer desk because someone actually has the balls to point out that the product you're pining for isn't needed.
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Originally Posted by onlooker
7,969 posts. And still in denial.
Right, 'cause it's ME that's in denial. Go back and look at the 57 threads all talking about the same thing over the past few years. Then perhaps you'll hange your tune.
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Originally Posted by snoopy
It's a very big market. How do we know? By using a reliable marketing tool, a test market -- more predictable than a poll or survey. What test market? Why, it's what's selling on the Window side. Apple doesn't even need to pay for these marketing results. This is what the rest of us are relying on, not on our personal opinions as you keep telling us.
So then, what are you relying on to tell us there is no market? You haven't' said what it is. Instead, you say the burden of proof is on us. Okay, we are giving you hard numbers. Just look at what is selling on the Window side. I'd like to see what you have to offer for your evidence now.
This is not new. I've referred to it before, but you chose to ignore it, and instead tell me I should buy an iMac.
I've already addressed that point. It doesn't hold water. People buy this kind of product on the Windows side because that is, in large measure, what's offered. There is no real iMac of the Windows world...not with the appeal it is, anyway.
Yes, I want hard numbers. Demonstrate there is a market.
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Your statement is not proof of anything, and Apple just continues to ignore the kind of computer that best satisfies the prosumer market.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. This product is about image to you. You're a PROSUMER! Nothing else will do! Man, the advertising people have your number.
Let me tell you something: I'm about as much of a "prosumer" as there is. Yet I'm not clamoring for this product. Why? For one, my MBP does me just fine for anything I need to do. Everything. Edititing photos? check. Video? check. Audio recording? Check. E-mail/Internet/Games? Check, check and check. Documents? Check.
If I did need or want a desktop, I would likely buy the new iMac. It will do anything you need it to do unless you're a serious video/photo professional, as will the MBP. Anything. In fact, I'd wager it would work well for lighter use professionals as well. It would certainly be great for anything you and I need to do.
Now, if one needs more power. Say one is a serious photoshop user or video editor? Then one needs a Mac pro. One needs the ability to upgrade the graphics card, etc. Thats why there IS a Mac Pro.
The machine you're talking about would not be in the same league as the Mac Pro. It would be like an iMac. So what is the point? Now I hear you...you don't WANT an iMac. Perhaps you should examine the reasons why. Most people who say they don't want one actually feel that way due to what they think it says about them, even if they don't think about what other people may believe. It's personal to them. And if one does have hard reasons, like having a nice display he wants to use? Then save up and buy a used or new Mac Pro. It will last longer and will be even more expandable.
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Originally Posted by pomo
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
Totally agreed. Upgrading is highly questionable in most cases, unless you've spent 3K on the machine the first place. It's usually not worth it beyond RAM and HDD.
Totally agreed. Upgrading is highly questionable in most cases, unless you've spent 3K on the machine the first place. It's usually not worth it beyond RAM and HDD.
I see a difference between upgradable and expandable. I and many others want room to expand a computer, not upgrade it, which often includes a new CPU. I agree, it's usually not worth it.
Yet expansion slots allow for things like professional audio cards, like a 24-bit A/D converter, and more USB ports. Sure, we can put this stuff on the desk with cables and extra little boxes, but this is exactly what we want to avoid, and why there is a market for PCI-e slots. Also, a second HDD goes inside, and not on the desktop.
I see a difference between upgradable and expandable. I and many others want room to expand a computer, not upgrade it, which often includes a new CPU. I agree, it's usually not worth it.
Yet expansion slots allow for things like professional audio cards, like a 24-bit A/D converter, and more USB ports. Sure, we can put this stuff on the desk with cables and extra little boxes, but this is exactly what we want to avoid, and why there is a market for PCI-e slots. Also, a second HDD goes inside, and not on the desktop.
Well, I see that point. That said, if you're in that market, you really need a Mac Pro. Most people aren't using Pro Audio cards or A/D converters. They're using external sound cards with laptops.
One of the main issues here is that we have a lot of folks who actually want a Mac Pro, but can't afford one. So then it becomes "Apple is ignoring us." It's like saying BMW is ignoring the sub $20,000 market. Neither company is ignoring anybody. They're not responsible for someone not wanting to save the cash they need for the product they supposedly need.
Speaking of "need," I would like to know who specifically "needs" this mid pro tower, and why. I would like to know what needs people have that can't be met more than adequately with current Apple hardware offerings. Let's not limit it to desktops either...I'd like to know why the Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MB and MBP won't be sufficient and/or possible. I'm not looking for hypotheticals like you've offered, either (no offense). I am curious about specific examples.
I've already addressed that point. It doesn't hold water. People buy this kind of product on the Windows side because that is, in large measure, what's offered. There is no real iMac of the Windows world...not with the appeal it is, anyway.
You bring up a point that can be refuted by your own, earlier, argument. You say people buy [expandable towers] on the Windows side, because that is what's offered. Well, in an earlier argument against me, you said, "Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand [for such a product] Apple would release it?"
So using your own argument: If there were overwhelming demand for an AIO, the makers of Windows computers would build it. QED (What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.)
So stop side stepping the fact that consumer buying habits on the Windows side are indeed a valid indication of what they would buy on the Mac side. We are all computer users. Windows is just another platform.
So, you have had our proof. Where is yours? Stop telling us to demonstrate there is a market, and tell up how you are so sure there is none, or a market so small it is not worth considering.
You bring up a point that can be refuted by your own, earlier, argument. You say people buy [expandable towers] on the Windows side, because that is what's offered. Well, in an earlier argument against me, you said, "Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand [for such a product] Apple would release it?"
So using your own argument: If there were overwhelming demand for an AIO, the makers of Windows computers would build it. QED (What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.)
So stop side stepping the fact that consumer buying habits on the Windows side are indeed a valid indication of what they would buy on the Mac side. We are all computer users. Windows is just another platform.
So, you have had our proof. Where is yours? Stop telling us to demonstrate there is a market, and tell up how you are so sure there is none, or a market so small it is not worth considering.
i'd like to see an affordable tower, and an inexpensive beautiful looking "mac cube". something that looks more like it's on your desk for design rather than as a computer.
Speaking of "need," I would like to know who specifically "needs" this mid pro tower, and why. I would like to know what needs people have that can't be met more than adequately with current Apple hardware offerings. Let's not limit it to desktops either...I'd like to know why the Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MB and MBP won't be sufficient and/or possible. I'm not looking for hypotheticals like you've offered, either (no offense). I am curious about specific examples.
The biggest 'need' is lower cost, than a Mac Pro. Many people 'could' afford a Mac Pro, or save up for one, but they use their money more wisely. These same people don't buy an 18 wheeler if they need a pickup. I know, I do exaggerate. And the used market is an alternative, which doesn't help Apple's revenue stream.
The biggest 'want' is to eliminate desk clutter and put much into the computer case. I consider mine my audio workstation, even thought the Mac is not a workstation class computer. It does the work I need to do.
By the way, I just saw a movie where the audio was recorded on tape. How quickly technology changes. It was titled, I'll Be There.
People want to buy what fits their needs not just what the company wants to sell them.
I don't use an iMac because I want to pick and choose what monitor and video card I will use not Apples choice.
I don't need the power that a Mac pro has. I use Photoshop, but as an amateur photographer, and would rather spend some of the money that I would have to spend on a Mac Pro on a better camera, More RAM, and larger hard drive.
I have clients that a true pros and need the power of a Mac Pro or more.
My Ideal Mini tower would be as follows:
1 CPU
2 PCI slots (what ever is the fastest at the time)
Comments
I think this is the first sensible thing you said in your entire reply, to let's start here.
Right...because the people that are clamoring for this product are "sensible." Jesus.
It's true. We must consider the Mac Mini if we do not need a Mac Pro. However, this does not mean we are satisfied with the Mac Mini for our application.
OK, then buy an iMac.
I for one will would prefer a lower cost tower. There is not such a Mac, so someday I will buy a Mac Pro that is used and within my budget. This purchase will not contribute to Apple's bottom line at all.
Good for you. Then buy the used Mac Pro. Let Apple fend for itself. The point is the SIZE of the market
I find it amusing what you suggest I do about the situation.
Uh...don't bitch about a mythical product you don't actually need. How about that?
Make more money? Very helpful advice. Please talk to my boss. Next you say to buy a machine in my price range. Yes! That's it -- as soon as Apple sells a Mac Mini Tower. Thanks for the show of support.
Buy an iMac, which includes a great display and is faster than the Mini. It also has great software included.
Now here is a real jewel. I ask for proof for your assertion that there is little or no demand for a lower-price tower. So, what do you reply?
See above. The burden of proof is on YOU...to show that there IS a market. Try reading please. This is not how marketing works. The burden is on the person advocating such a product.
Of course! Why didn't I see the obvious? The fact that Apple hasn't made a lower-priced tower is proof that there is no demand? Come on. Give us credit for having the brains to see the illogic of your statement.
Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand Apple would release it? I mean think it through. Apple, like any other company, carefully plans it's introductions. They have products filling all the segments.
I'd keep going, but this is grinding me down. If you don't like the thread, don't read it. Stick to the BD vs. HD-DVD discussion where you make a heck of a lot more sense. Sorry if I've been offensive. Really sorry, but damn it, you got me all worked up.
It's not just this thread. It's the utter myopia and stupidity of it all. It's the multitude of threads with you guys droning on about the midpro tower that's not coming, thinking all the while how stupid Apple is for now making one. And the real reason you want one? Because you're too poor to afford a Mac pro and your ego can't handle buying a used one or an iMac. Therefore Apple should meet your needs! I mean, what's wrong with them! Look at all these people that want the thing. Stupid Apple!
You're saying WE aren't sensible? Get over yourself.
I don't want an iMac, I realize this bothers you for some reason but guess what, I don't care.
Are you selling a used MacPro for $1200-1500? No? What a surprise, get a better answer.
Mythical? until recently there has always been a headless, somewhat expandable Mac in the mid-range.
See above and while you're at it realize I also don't care how *great* the display is.
Burden of proof? Ok let's look at the Windows based PC market which has more suppliers, hmm not a whole lot of AIOs being sold. I'd have to say the Mac based PC market is missing a core product from it's line-up.
Apple is controlled by Steve Jobs who while he's had a few very good ideas also has some that aren't exactly in the same ballpark. Mac Cube w/ Powermac pricing anyone? So yes I'd have to say they would ignore market demands.
You claim we're the ones being myopic and we're being stupid for wanting something. Thank YOU for having an open mind. Maybe it isn't coming, maybe it is you never know w/ Apple (iPod, Mini, and iPhone to name a few).
Personally I've found your last few posts on this subject to be inflammatory and derogatory w/ nothing constructive being added. For someone w/ nearly 8k posts I'd expect more respect for your fellow forum users.
The point is the SIZE of the market.
It's a very big market. How do we know? By using a reliable marketing tool, a test market -- more predictable than a poll or survey. What test market? Why, it's what's selling on the Window side. Apple doesn't even need to pay for these marketing results. This is what the rest of us are relying on, not on our personal opinions as you keep telling us.
So then, what are you relying on to tell us there is no market? You haven't' said what it is. Instead, you say the burden of proof is on us. Okay, we are giving you hard numbers. Just look at what is selling on the Window side. I'd like to see what you have to offer for your evidence now.
This is not new. I've referred to it before, but you chose to ignore it, and instead tell me I should buy an iMac.
Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand Apple would release it?
Your statement is not proof of anything, and Apple just continues to ignore the kind of computer that best satisfies the prosumer market.
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
Moot point if you're going external anyway. You're not actually using the internal speakers to do your audio editing, are you?
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
Or replaces one neat tower and screen with an iMac, a screen, four external boxes, four power cables and four FW cables.
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
Suppose I have two already? What if I have no more room on my desk? (Incidentally, I don't.) What if have use for exactly one 24" and no more? (Nope, can't sell the old display. Another desktop computer, a game console and a TV tuner need it to plug into.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
Okay, where's my external Geforce 8800GTS "graphics device"?
All you have succeeded in is listing why you are fine with an iMac. It doesn't automatically follow anyone else is.
Moot point if you're going external anyway. You're not actually using the internal speakers to do your audio editing, are you?Or replaces one neat tower and screen with an iMac, a screen, four external boxes, four power cables and four FW cables.Suppose I have two already? What if I have no more room on my desk? (Incidentally, I don't.) What if have use for exactly one 24" and no more? (Nope, can't sell the old display. Another desktop computer, a game console and a TV tuner need it to plug into.)Okay, where's my external Geforce 8800GTS "graphics device"?
All you have succeeded in is listing why you are fine with an iMac. It doesn't automatically follow anyone else is.
I agree with the above points.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
I can't speak for others, but there's some very big limitations to using an iMac. Some of these limitations are deal breakers. Just go to http://www.dpreview.com and look in the Mac forum. There's lots of people there who will tell you that a glossy screen (even a good one like on the 24" iMac) cannot be calibrated well enough for preparing photos for print.
Others would like two hard drives for backup. No can do on an iMac unless you use an external disk.
For me it's the screen:
- I don't like the glossy screen. I'm not as picky as the people on dpreview, but I still don't like the colors
- I don't like the reflections and glare from a glossy screen. Sticking an anti-glare stick-on kind of hurts the "beautifully integrated" property of the iMac
- The screen points slightly upwards and is non-tiltable. I have a 3-year old that keeps coming and saying, "daddy, show me the picture!" She's way too short to see a screen standing on a desk and tilted upwards.
- The screen is wide. I never watch movies on the computer, but I do read text and PDF files. I would much rather have a 4:3 aspect ratio. That means I can't get a screen from Apple
Just a few reasons why I don't want an iMac.Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
You basically nullified your own post within itself. It's obviously hard to find good reasons why there is no need for a real desktop from Apple. You obviously cant without complete contradiction.
Honestly I don't need one because I have always been an up-grader that uses a PowerMac. But I do see the need for it especially when potential switchers keep coming into the forum and asking the same 1st post question. It's always about something between the Mac Pro, and the iMac. 1st post is usually their last post when people tell them to buy an iMac. I wouldn't buy one, and I normally wouldn't recommend one if they were interested in using some Semi-Pro applications. Typically thats where I see the gaping hole.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
But I do, not because I exactly love the thing, but because there was no other option. It's fine for say, my 12-year old sister, but it really does not meet my needs at all
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
You're comparing the speakers on an iMac to the alert speaker on a tower and thinking its a valid point? 100% of tower users have 20, 2.1, 5.1, or 7.1 system.
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
Having owned towers I can tell you that is complete BS. It only applies to those who are perfectly happy to live with one hard drive (forgoing Time machine) and waiting forever when installing software or burning a disk using the slow as molasses notebook drive. If you're using an iMac and you're more prosumer minded, it creates desktop clutter.
The tower sits under my desk with only the display on my desk. The hard drives and optical drives are in the tower using the tower's power supply. With the iMac I'm going to need an external burner and an external drive drive both take space on my desk and surge protector, have visible cabling on my desk, are no where near as reliable as internal drives, and cost 2-3 times more as internal drives
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
You need an awfully big desk for two wide screen displays.
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
Where's the external device for e-SATA if it replaces USB2.0 and firewire as the external connection of choice? Right I'm supposed to help out Apple and magically come with with another $2000.
5. No one really upgrades
That's news to me. I must have not done that video card upgrade in my mother's PC or the countless RAM upgrades or the video card upgrade in my G3. My uncle must have not out that radeon x850 in his computer either. Please people stop confusing your own biases and Steve's reality distortion fields as sources of fact. It just makes us look ignorant.
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of.
You're comparing a large bulky laptop with a desktop? Completely different set of rules.
So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
No you will by an iMac because it suites YOUR needs.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
It's good you'll be happy with an iMac, but none of this makes you the ultimate authority on what all users should need.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
No, like I said it moves the clutter to the top of the desk where it is visible instead of under my desk where it is not.
This is in response to SDW2001's latest rant.
You're saying WE aren't sensible? Get over yourself.
Uh, who's upset here? It has nothing to do with my getting over myself, whatever that's supposed to mean. Those supporting this product are not living in reality.
I don't want an iMac, I realize this bothers you for some reason but guess what, I don't care.
It doesn't bother me at all. But I am curious as to why you don't want one. It's much more sensible than clamoring for a non-existent product with the same capabilities and no display.
Are you selling a used MacPro for $1200-1500? No? What a surprise, get a better answer.
No, but this person is. http://cgi.ebay.com/Apple-Mac-Pro-Qu...QQcmdZViewItem
That's what you'd pay for the high end mythical tower, anyway.
Mythical? until recently there has always been a headless, somewhat expandable Mac in the mid-range.
Uh, no there hasn't. Try being more wrong next time.
See above and while you're at it realize I also don't care how *great* the display is.
That's your problem. Maybe you'll get lucky and Apple will release a machine that costs as much as an iMac, does the same thing exactly, and doesn't include a display. Happy buying.
Burden of proof? Ok let's look at the Windows based PC market which has more suppliers, hmm not a whole lot of AIOs being sold. I'd have to say the Mac based PC market is missing a core product from it's line-up.
Apple is controlled by Steve Jobs who while he's had a few very good ideas also has some that aren't exactly in the same ballpark. Mac Cube w/ Powermac pricing anyone? So yes I'd have to say they would ignore market demands.
They also learn from their mistakes.
You claim we're the ones being myopic and we're being stupid for wanting something. Thank YOU for having an open mind. Maybe it isn't coming, maybe it is you never know w/ Apple (iPod, Mini, and iPhone to name a few).
It's not that I think you're stupid exactly. It's the reasons WHY you want the product. You don't really have a need for it. Apple offers perfectly good alternatives, but you don't like them because of two reasons. 1) They're too expensive and 2) You don't like the image of the iMac. See, you're a POWER USER! You want EXPANDABILITY, like PCI SLOTS and....well, PCI SLOTS!
Personally I've found your last few posts on this subject to be inflammatory and derogatory w/ nothing constructive being added. For someone w/ nearly 8k posts I'd expect more respect for your fellow forum users.
I'm not the one crying and pounding the computer desk because someone actually has the balls to point out that the product you're pining for isn't needed.
7,969 posts. And still in denial.
Right, 'cause it's ME that's in denial. Go back and look at the 57 threads all talking about the same thing over the past few years. Then perhaps you'll hange your tune.
It's a very big market. How do we know? By using a reliable marketing tool, a test market -- more predictable than a poll or survey. What test market? Why, it's what's selling on the Window side. Apple doesn't even need to pay for these marketing results. This is what the rest of us are relying on, not on our personal opinions as you keep telling us.
So then, what are you relying on to tell us there is no market? You haven't' said what it is. Instead, you say the burden of proof is on us. Okay, we are giving you hard numbers. Just look at what is selling on the Window side. I'd like to see what you have to offer for your evidence now.
This is not new. I've referred to it before, but you chose to ignore it, and instead tell me I should buy an iMac.
I've already addressed that point. It doesn't hold water. People buy this kind of product on the Windows side because that is, in large measure, what's offered. There is no real iMac of the Windows world...not with the appeal it is, anyway.
Yes, I want hard numbers. Demonstrate there is a market.
Your statement is not proof of anything, and Apple just continues to ignore the kind of computer that best satisfies the prosumer market.
Ding ding ding! We have a winner. This product is about image to you. You're a PROSUMER! Nothing else will do! Man, the advertising people have your number.
Let me tell you something: I'm about as much of a "prosumer" as there is. Yet I'm not clamoring for this product. Why? For one, my MBP does me just fine for anything I need to do. Everything. Edititing photos? check. Video? check. Audio recording? Check. E-mail/Internet/Games? Check, check and check. Documents? Check.
If I did need or want a desktop, I would likely buy the new iMac. It will do anything you need it to do unless you're a serious video/photo professional, as will the MBP. Anything. In fact, I'd wager it would work well for lighter use professionals as well. It would certainly be great for anything you and I need to do.
Now, if one needs more power. Say one is a serious photoshop user or video editor? Then one needs a Mac pro. One needs the ability to upgrade the graphics card, etc. Thats why there IS a Mac Pro.
The machine you're talking about would not be in the same league as the Mac Pro. It would be like an iMac. So what is the point? Now I hear you...you don't WANT an iMac. Perhaps you should examine the reasons why. Most people who say they don't want one actually feel that way due to what they think it says about them, even if they don't think about what other people may believe. It's personal to them. And if one does have hard reasons, like having a nice display he wants to use? Then save up and buy a used or new Mac Pro. It will last longer and will be even more expandable.
Seriously, what's wrong with getting an iMac. The following is a list why I think an xMac is not necessary:
1. iMac has built in quality stereo speakers/ whereas towers have low end mono
2. iMac avoids tower clutter
3. Ifyou already have an LCD, then use it as a secondary screen (I.e. Video editing, audio editing.)
4. No need to buy internal pci cards when external devices are available
5. No one really upgrades
Okay, so I own a toshiba satellite only because it is an upgradable laptop. In order for me to decently upgrade it I would have to spend roughly 700.00 dollars. It will never looklike new because of the material that it was made out of. So my options now is to upgrade my laptop or buy a new iMac. As a smart consumer I will buy a iMac.
Keep in mind that I am a multimedia prosumer that needs to do image/graphic editing, video editing, and audio editing.
Instead of spending money on aesthetically challenged displays, or cramming up a tower with unecessary peripherals or PCI card. I could neatly use just one FireWire cable to daisychain
and rack up all the external devices I need for audio/video, which avoids clutter.
Totally agreed. Upgrading is highly questionable in most cases, unless you've spent 3K on the machine the first place. It's usually not worth it beyond RAM and HDD.
Totally agreed. Upgrading is highly questionable in most cases, unless you've spent 3K on the machine the first place. It's usually not worth it beyond RAM and HDD.
I see a difference between upgradable and expandable. I and many others want room to expand a computer, not upgrade it, which often includes a new CPU. I agree, it's usually not worth it.
Yet expansion slots allow for things like professional audio cards, like a 24-bit A/D converter, and more USB ports. Sure, we can put this stuff on the desk with cables and extra little boxes, but this is exactly what we want to avoid, and why there is a market for PCI-e slots. Also, a second HDD goes inside, and not on the desktop.
I see a difference between upgradable and expandable. I and many others want room to expand a computer, not upgrade it, which often includes a new CPU. I agree, it's usually not worth it.
Yet expansion slots allow for things like professional audio cards, like a 24-bit A/D converter, and more USB ports. Sure, we can put this stuff on the desk with cables and extra little boxes, but this is exactly what we want to avoid, and why there is a market for PCI-e slots. Also, a second HDD goes inside, and not on the desktop.
Well, I see that point. That said, if you're in that market, you really need a Mac Pro. Most people aren't using Pro Audio cards or A/D converters. They're using external sound cards with laptops.
One of the main issues here is that we have a lot of folks who actually want a Mac Pro, but can't afford one. So then it becomes "Apple is ignoring us." It's like saying BMW is ignoring the sub $20,000 market. Neither company is ignoring anybody. They're not responsible for someone not wanting to save the cash they need for the product they supposedly need.
Speaking of "need," I would like to know who specifically "needs" this mid pro tower, and why. I would like to know what needs people have that can't be met more than adequately with current Apple hardware offerings. Let's not limit it to desktops either...I'd like to know why the Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MB and MBP won't be sufficient and/or possible. I'm not looking for hypotheticals like you've offered, either (no offense). I am curious about specific examples.
I've already addressed that point. It doesn't hold water. People buy this kind of product on the Windows side because that is, in large measure, what's offered. There is no real iMac of the Windows world...not with the appeal it is, anyway.
You bring up a point that can be refuted by your own, earlier, argument. You say people buy [expandable towers] on the Windows side, because that is what's offered. Well, in an earlier argument against me, you said, "Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand [for such a product] Apple would release it?"
So using your own argument: If there were overwhelming demand for an AIO, the makers of Windows computers would build it. QED (What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.)
So stop side stepping the fact that consumer buying habits on the Windows side are indeed a valid indication of what they would buy on the Mac side. We are all computer users. Windows is just another platform.
So, you have had our proof. Where is yours? Stop telling us to demonstrate there is a market, and tell up how you are so sure there is none, or a market so small it is not worth considering.
You bring up a point that can be refuted by your own, earlier, argument. You say people buy [expandable towers] on the Windows side, because that is what's offered. Well, in an earlier argument against me, you said, "Don't you think if there was overwhelming demand [for such a product] Apple would release it?"
So using your own argument: If there were overwhelming demand for an AIO, the makers of Windows computers would build it. QED (What is good for the goose is good for the gander, so they say.)
So stop side stepping the fact that consumer buying habits on the Windows side are indeed a valid indication of what they would buy on the Mac side. We are all computer users. Windows is just another platform.
So, you have had our proof. Where is yours? Stop telling us to demonstrate there is a market, and tell up how you are so sure there is none, or a market so small it is not worth considering.
i'd like to see an affordable tower, and an inexpensive beautiful looking "mac cube". something that looks more like it's on your desk for design rather than as a computer.
Speaking of "need," I would like to know who specifically "needs" this mid pro tower, and why. I would like to know what needs people have that can't be met more than adequately with current Apple hardware offerings. Let's not limit it to desktops either...I'd like to know why the Mini, iMac, Mac Pro, MB and MBP won't be sufficient and/or possible. I'm not looking for hypotheticals like you've offered, either (no offense). I am curious about specific examples.
The biggest 'need' is lower cost, than a Mac Pro. Many people 'could' afford a Mac Pro, or save up for one, but they use their money more wisely. These same people don't buy an 18 wheeler if they need a pickup. I know, I do exaggerate. And the used market is an alternative, which doesn't help Apple's revenue stream.
The biggest 'want' is to eliminate desk clutter and put much into the computer case. I consider mine my audio workstation, even thought the Mac is not a workstation class computer. It does the work I need to do.
By the way, I just saw a movie where the audio was recorded on tape. How quickly technology changes. It was titled, I'll Be There.
Nice post. Did vista barf on you before you finished?
I don't use an iMac because I want to pick and choose what monitor and video card I will use not Apples choice.
I don't need the power that a Mac pro has. I use Photoshop, but as an amateur photographer, and would rather spend some of the money that I would have to spend on a Mac Pro on a better camera, More RAM, and larger hard drive.
I have clients that a true pros and need the power of a Mac Pro or more.
My Ideal Mini tower would be as follows:
1 CPU
2 PCI slots (what ever is the fastest at the time)
4 RAM slots (capable of using 2GB modules)
2 Hard Drive bays
2 Optical drive bays
3 USB 2.0 connectors (1 in front for my camera)
1 head phone jack in Front
1 Firewire 400 jack
1 Firewire 800 jack
1 eSata jack