[quote]Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.
<hr></blockquote>
Say I`m reading a forum, Its so much easier to run through, find the topics I want, Then command click. Get a nice sized list of tabs, then just run through them all..
Not only that...but Safari's tab implementation reeks of unoriginality. Hyatt is just redoing what he's been doing since his first wet dream about this dumb concept.
I thought Apple would be the pioneer again and revolutionize web browsing...or have a bit of innovation in store for us.
Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.
The Chimera/Camino team might as well call it quits now as the last remaining people that are sticking to Chimera for tabs slowly move towards Safari, leaving an immensely small group of people still clutching to Chimera for the tiny speed advantage it gives over Safari.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
<strong>Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.[02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes.. They all have windows.. and the ability to make bookmarks..
But a person could shift-command-click (to open windows behind the current one) through a series of links and run through them with the Window or Safari Dock menu too. If it's too much mouse movement, you can either use command-` (aka the "tilde" key) to cycle, or maybe Apple could create an inspector of some sort.
This is just tab abuse. Like the Windows taskbar, the text labels quickly become pointless (they should at least include a site badge in the tab) and have to either cramp up in the one row or worse yet, stack up (thankfully they don't do that at least). Tabs really are a poor way to deal with an unlimited number of pages. It's a nice idea to adopt them as part of the desktop metaphor, but like all things from the "analog" world, the analogy must be limited and reappropriated. Finite (pre-set) tabs are a very nice idea, and are well-implemented in OS X. Unlimited tabs are a major PITA.
It does plenty of useful things, everything a web browser should do. But for the longest time everybody discussed whether or not Apple would/should release a web browser, and they did. So now it's back to the usual AI mode, picking it apart.
It's the application interface you see in Windows all the time. There's a parent window with a global menubar at the top. Document windows are opened within the parent window.
Think of it as a miniaturization of the complete Mac interface. MDI is necessary in windows because there's no single uniform, OS level menubar to control things. MDI brings a single menubar to Windows apps instead of having File, Edit, etc menus for each document window.
It's a really big mess.
I just don't see the advantage of tabs to multiple web browser windows. People can just use the freaking "Window" menu or Dock icon to select the 'tab' the want.
<strong>I said this in the MacNN forums, but the good news (i'm grasping now) is that the "tabs" look more like temporary items added to the bookmarks bar than true tabs.
Not only are tabs for web pages poor UE, so is the MDI concept in total. Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They're true tabs. They're an addition to the Bookmarks bar, not a replacement. They act just like tabs you've used in any other tabbed browser, only upside-down.
I'm disappointed that Apple didn't take the time to make a better kind of multipage browsing. But, after using v62 for a bit, I'm not sure that it makes for a poor UE. (They have all the advantages of tabs, and all the flaws.) I think one has to acknowledge just how great the demand for tabbed browsing is, and just how difficult a better solution is -- speaking from having personally trying to design various proposed alternatives.
One thing is for sure, the tabs in v62 will make a lot of people happy. They're fairly easy to ignore if you hate them.
Ok, I see what you're saying about MDI, but tabs in Chimera really help me organize my pages when I'm going through message boards. I agree with the statemrnt you made about it making a mess, but for message boards, it helps me out.
But the other difference with tabs is that it's not only a way of changing document windows, it also automatically hides all the others. Rather than click (minimize) click (bring other window out of dock), it's a single click. It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.
I don't see why tabs are poor user interface. Could someone explain the argument against them?
<strong>Ok, I see what you're saying about MDI, but tabs in Chimera really help me organize my pages when I'm going through message boards. I agree with the statemrnt you made about it making a mess, but for message boards, it helps me out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hobbes: I know they're plain ol' tabs, I'm just trying to rationalize the situation based on the tab appearance.
Eugene: Don't even get me started on Windows' use of tabs! Worst user experience ever!
Obivously, this isn't the absolute worst thing in the world. I'm sure people will say if you do't like them, don't use them. Well, that's right, but it does set a bad precedent. Other apps have used tabs in this bad way before even these web browsers picked them up. But Apple has essentially blessed a bad idea in the UE. Not like this is the first or last time. I don't mean to whine, I'm just pointing out my rationale.
<strong>But the other difference with tabs is that it's not only a way of changing document windows, it also automatically hides all the others. Rather than click (minimize) click (bring other window out of dock), it's a single click. It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hm, interesting point. A more forward-looking arrangment would be to fix up and finish off the Single Window Mode again from the OS X developer previews. Then all apps would benefit.
<strong>I don't see what the big deal is. When Safari came out everybody and their brother were screaming "TABS, TABS, TABS" and now everyone is saying "the concept sucks". You're a bunch of crybabies. Don't like tabs, use multiple windows. Don't like multiple windows use tabs (if they're available).</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, now honestly I'm a little put off by this snide little comment. I've already stated my case, I was not part of the "we want tabs" crowd, and I don't think the three people who've mentioned that they don't like tabs in this thread deserve this.
Comments
<hr></blockquote>
Say I`m reading a forum, Its so much easier to run through, find the topics I want, Then command click. Get a nice sized list of tabs, then just run through them all..
I thought Apple would be the pioneer again and revolutionize web browsing...or have a bit of innovation in store for us.
Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.
The Chimera/Camino team might as well call it quits now as the last remaining people that are sticking to Chimera for tabs slowly move towards Safari, leaving an immensely small group of people still clutching to Chimera for the tiny speed advantage it gives over Safari.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
<strong>Safari's just another browser...and it's ripping off all the other browser's ideas and features.[02-23-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yes.. They all have windows.. and the ability to make bookmarks..
Is Safari supposed to dance for you?
<strong>
Yes.. They all have windows.. and the ability to make bookmarks..
Is Safari supposed to dance for you?</strong><hr></blockquote>
No...but I'd like it to do something useful and not rehashed.
<strong>
From Mac OS X Hints.. (great resource BTW)
Step 1 - QUIT Safari
Step 2 - In the terminal type: defaults write com.apple.Safari IncludeDebugMenu 1
Once done just run Safari again and you should see Debug right after the Help menu...
Dave</strong><hr></blockquote>
There's also some utility that activiates the menu. I think it's SafariEnhancer or something like that. I've been using it since Safari came out.
This is just tab abuse. Like the Windows taskbar, the text labels quickly become pointless (they should at least include a site badge in the tab) and have to either cramp up in the one row or worse yet, stack up (thankfully they don't do that at least). Tabs really are a poor way to deal with an unlimited number of pages. It's a nice idea to adopt them as part of the desktop metaphor, but like all things from the "analog" world, the analogy must be limited and reappropriated. Finite (pre-set) tabs are a very nice idea, and are well-implemented in OS X. Unlimited tabs are a major PITA.
re; What is MDI?
<a href="http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#macOSXDoesntUseMDI"; target="_blank">http://developer.apple.com/ue/switch/windows.html#macOSXDoesntUseMDI</a>;
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: BuonRotto ]</p>
<strong>
No...but I'd like it to do something useful and not rehashed.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tabs are useful.
<strong>What's MDI?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Multiple Document Interface.
It's the application interface you see in Windows all the time. There's a parent window with a global menubar at the top. Document windows are opened within the parent window.
Think of it as a miniaturization of the complete Mac interface. MDI is necessary in windows because there's no single uniform, OS level menubar to control things. MDI brings a single menubar to Windows apps instead of having File, Edit, etc menus for each document window.
It's a really big mess.
I just don't see the advantage of tabs to multiple web browser windows. People can just use the freaking "Window" menu or Dock icon to select the 'tab' the want.
Don't even get me started on stacked tabs like the ones in Windows control panels that change positions when you click them!
<strong>I said this in the MacNN forums, but the good news (i'm grasping now) is that the "tabs" look more like temporary items added to the bookmarks bar than true tabs.
Not only are tabs for web pages poor UE, so is the MDI concept in total. Why people can't seem to manage multiple windows using either the Dock icons or the Window menu is beyond me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
They're true tabs. They're an addition to the Bookmarks bar, not a replacement. They act just like tabs you've used in any other tabbed browser, only upside-down.
I'm disappointed that Apple didn't take the time to make a better kind of multipage browsing. But, after using v62 for a bit, I'm not sure that it makes for a poor UE. (They have all the advantages of tabs, and all the flaws.) I think one has to acknowledge just how great the demand for tabbed browsing is, and just how difficult a better solution is -- speaking from having personally trying to design various proposed alternatives.
One thing is for sure, the tabs in v62 will make a lot of people happy. They're fairly easy to ignore if you hate them.
Here's to something better in Safari v2.0.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>
Tabs are useful.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Tabs are a bad habit. It's like smoking. You can like tabs, but it doesn't mean it's good for you.
Tabs a solution in search of a problem.
I don't see why tabs are poor user interface. Could someone explain the argument against them?
<strong>Ok, I see what you're saying about MDI, but tabs in Chimera really help me organize my pages when I'm going through message boards. I agree with the statemrnt you made about it making a mess, but for message boards, it helps me out.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Repeat after me:
Open
Another
Window
Use
The
Window
Menu
Or
Dock
Icon
Eugene: Don't even get me started on Windows' use of tabs! Worst user experience ever!
Obivously, this isn't the absolute worst thing in the world. I'm sure people will say if you do't like them, don't use them. Well, that's right, but it does set a bad precedent. Other apps have used tabs in this bad way before even these web browsers picked them up. But Apple has essentially blessed a bad idea in the UE. Not like this is the first or last time.
<strong>But the other difference with tabs is that it's not only a way of changing document windows, it also automatically hides all the others. Rather than click (minimize) click (bring other window out of dock), it's a single click. It keeps things much cleaner than having windows all over the place.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Hm, interesting point. A more forward-looking arrangment would be to fix up and finish off the Single Window Mode again from the OS X developer previews. Then all apps would benefit.
<strong>I don't see what the big deal is. When Safari came out everybody and their brother were screaming "TABS, TABS, TABS" and now everyone is saying "the concept sucks". You're a bunch of crybabies. Don't like tabs, use multiple windows. Don't like multiple windows use tabs (if they're available).</strong><hr></blockquote>
OK, now honestly I'm a little put off by this snide little comment. I've already stated my case, I was not part of the "we want tabs" crowd, and I don't think the three people who've mentioned that they don't like tabs in this thread deserve this.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>