Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.
Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.
Control-clicking in the tab space (where no tabs exist) will give one the option of "New Tab" "Reload All Tabs".
* * *
As noted by Think Secret, tabs reduce in size as more are added. However, unlike Chimera/Camino, there's a minimum size for a tab: 80 pixels. It won't go smaller.
There is also a strange glitch in which if more tabs are loaded than the page can hold, they just overflow, and keep going off the window. i.e., they're there, but you can't see or click on them. I suspect that's a bug and not a feature.
I understand, and agree with, the statement that if going to seperate websites should be seperate windows. Also, using the dock icon or window menu to switch windows *is* just as functional, and in most cases not confusing at all, as using tabs. But when I visit AppleInsider is really the only time I ever use the tabs, and mainly to save time. I usually get sidetracked here and end up wasting a lot of time, so what I do is go through and load each forum in a seperate tab. Then I load each topic I'm interested in into a new tab, and when I go through and read each thread, when I'm done, Command-W and the next tab is there. I know that this would be just the same with seperate windows, but with tabs, the window stays in the same place and I can go through fast... read, Cmd-W, read, Cmd-W, read...
Ok, so after thinking about it, tabs are pretty much just a habit. I like being able to minimize one window and having iTunes, or whatever I had to get to, right behind it. But I guess Command-H takes just as long as Command-M, and hiding the app is what I really want to do.
I'm not a UI expert, although I wish I was. Anyway, here's how I see things: browser interfaces and tabbed interfaces are a decent solution for web pages, but they fall apart for managing other content. Such as...
1) That of different fixed sizes (tabs either have to take up as much space as the largest thing or be resized constantly).
2) Anything that's being actively edited (they hinder drag & drop and side-by-side comparisons).
3) Handling many pages of content.
In certain common types of web browsing though , problem 3 comes up. Tabbed interfaces that I've seen deal very poorly with this. Mozilla likes to truncate tab titles until they don't exist and then run them off the side of the window. Opera likes to do much the same, except everything else in the browser starts disappearing off the side of the window too, scrollbars and all. Other great methods I've seen to deal with too many tabs include arrows with no scroll track and multiple rows of tabs. I'd like to read what Safari does when it gets 'overloaded', or apologise if someone has already posted it.
My immediate idea for a solution would be a scrollable sidebar. It can hold a theoretically infinite number of choices without trouble and be truncated to the user's preference. I can't use Safari, so I can't tell if this would conflict with something else (probably the bookmarks thing), but if that got sorted out, it might work.
I have some idea of why Apple is using tabs versus something more ideal. It's clear that Apple considers user feedback for software; however I think sometimes they're just taking Joe User's best example of what works as what they should produce. Then other times, they're showing evidence of totally unqualified personnel (hidden preview in font panel, Ken Burns effect UI). A lack of leadership in UI, or whatever this is, can't be good.
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You must be joking! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> You then have a window under the one(s) you already have open. Then you have to either find it via the menu (pain in the a*s) or move them aside to find the one you want (pain in the a*s).
I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do.
I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do. </strong><hr></blockquote>
That's exactly what I do, especially at forums like AI and that's what makes tabs very useful.
Thanks a lot. You convinced me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The way I see it, a tabbed pane is just like a window, except:
1) To get back to a tab you either have to click on a very specific (yet dynamic) location or use a key combo. A whole separate window allows for sloppier focus most of the time, or a similar key combo...or in the case of OS X, a unified location for a list of open windows.
2) You have no freedom to position a tab to be partially visible, unless somebody adds a split pane type feature to the tab interface...and it's still more limited than having an actual separate window.
3) They have a more permanent presence in your browser since they cannot be hidden without removing them. We are conditioned to vertical separation rather than horizontal. Compare a list of items lined up in a row or a column. Which is easier to read through? Now take your browser and open 5, 10, and 15 tabs. That's what I call clutter.
Tognazzini and Raskin aren't completely crazy, though Raskin is close. There are some pretty basic UI guidelines being broken here, IMO.
I have to say I'm with the "if you don't like 'em, don't use 'em" crowd. There are all these self-declared user interface "experts" here, all talking about how bad tabs are for some reason. Well, first of all, I don't understand what you guys are talking about. Second of all, you don't seem to understand that whether you like tabs or not is purely an opinion. Just because you think it's a bad UI element doesn't mean that no one should use them. I for one find them indespensible for browsing the forums here and at a number of other places. Often times, I keep one window open for each message board. So I have my AI window with a number of tabs, my Ars window, and whatever else.
Again... if you really hate tabs, then don't use them. Don't tell me not to use them.
EDIT: I have a mouse (Logitech MX700) with lots of buttons that makes navigating tabs very easy. If not for this mouse, I'd probably use a multi-window browser.
Speaking from the human interface element, tabs may not be such a bad idea. But there are good ways and bad ways of implementing them. I like tabs, I don't like the way they are currently implemented in Safari. Some of that has to do with bugs that will be worked out, some of it is the brushed metal appearance.
From a Human Interface Design perspective, the tabs in Safari aren't implemented in the cleanest and most intuitive of fashions.
After having played with them for a while now, I'd have to agree with M3D Jack. I like the idea of tabs in a browser (interface guidelines notwithstanding, I personally find them useful), but the way they are currently implemented isn't all that great.
Of course, this wasn't even released to the public, so it may be cleaned up before it is. It is still in beta, so improvement will come...
Can you guys imagine Windows users taking a forum thread to THREE PAGES worth in ONE NIGHT over a User Interface issue? Ha!
</moment of levity>
Now, my bitches, where were we?
Oh yeah....
I don't have a machine with a large monitor, screan real-estate is at a premium for me...ALWAYS. Kim Kap Sol asked about why someone would need to have a multitude of browser windows open....asking if we might be downloading pr0n.....
On my last project I would have to design a lot of logos on the fly. I would jump on the net and start working on finding existing signage as a basis for the vernacular of that type of product. I was jumping between a LOT of sites and working on two or three of these things at any given time. The ability to TURN ON a tabbed window behavior, a behavior of a SOFTWARE APPLICATION by the way, would have saved me time in managing all of those open windows as I showed them to the other designers and director.
Adherence to the UI is important, but golly gee I sure did use the collapsable menubar feature in IE quite a bit back when I used to run it.
I will personally look forward to switching on the Tabbed Window option in the next public release of Safari.
<strong>Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree, as far as Chimera goes. Chimera's tabs don't clearly tell you how to close them. That is, it fails the age-old Mac philosophy of direct manipulation. (One of my complaints with drawers as well). In fact, they look and act just like static tabs you would expect in preference panes, except they magically disappear with a command-W! Very clumsy, which is not to say they aren't a big convenience, just poorly executed.
At least Safari goes a ways to address a couple of these issues, as Jonathan pointed out. In fact, I would go as far as to say that insofar as Safari's tabs are differentiated visually and functionally from standard tabs, then Apple is treading on kosher ground (nonstandard UI elements aside).
<strong>One of the many UI problems with tabs has already reared its ugly head:
There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that's just horrible UI. As for Xidius' remark, you shouldn't have to resize the window to get access to the other tabs. Granted, most people probably aren't using that many tabs (I use maybe about 5-6 tabs at most at any given time), but the tabs should be visible.
damn you all....i don't have .62 to play with and i am jealous.....
as for tabs, i loved them in chimera at first...but have found that with cable and airport i don't really miss them...page loading is so fast now...i do like the bookmarks bar and use that as my tabs...if i was on dial-up i would surely miss tabs....g
<strong>Could some one do me a favor and take a screen shot of the tabs with out the brushed metal? I just wanna see if they look all funny...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never even thought of that, I too would like to see this.
... It's like how Dodge, GM, Ford, etc. started advertising how their cars had a jizzillion cupholders tucked into every space imaginable. Is having 22 cupholders in your car really better than having 8?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My car doesn't have any cupholders. I would like cupholders.
Comments
<strong>
Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.
Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</strong><hr></blockquote>
Thnx Hobbes.
I wonder why it's taking so long to add these.
<strong>
Troll on, bitch!
</strong><hr></blockquote>
Eh? Can a mod tell Barto to calm down?
Contextual menu for tab:
New Tab
Close Tab
Close Other Tabs
Reload Tabs
Reload All Tabs
* * *
Control-clicking in the tab space (where no tabs exist) will give one the option of "New Tab" "Reload All Tabs".
* * *
As noted by Think Secret, tabs reduce in size as more are added. However, unlike Chimera/Camino, there's a minimum size for a tab: 80 pixels. It won't go smaller.
There is also a strange glitch in which if more tabs are loaded than the page can hold, they just overflow, and keep going off the window. i.e., they're there, but you can't see or click on them. I suspect that's a bug and not a feature.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>
Eh? Can a mod tell Barto to calm down?</strong><hr></blockquote>
I will.
Barto, chill out. Completely unnecessary.
Ok, so after thinking about it, tabs are pretty much just a habit. I like being able to minimize one window and having iTunes, or whatever I had to get to, right behind it. But I guess Command-H takes just as long as Command-M, and hiding the app is what I really want to do.
Crap.
Eugene.
Thanks a lot. You convinced me.
1) That of different fixed sizes (tabs either have to take up as much space as the largest thing or be resized constantly).
2) Anything that's being actively edited (they hinder drag & drop and side-by-side comparisons).
3) Handling many pages of content.
In certain common types of web browsing though
My immediate idea for a solution would be a scrollable sidebar. It can hold a theoretically infinite number of choices without trouble and be truncated to the user's preference. I can't use Safari, so I can't tell if this would conflict with something else (probably the bookmarks thing), but if that got sorted out, it might work.
I have some idea of why Apple is using tabs versus something more ideal. It's clear that Apple considers user feedback for software; however I think sometimes they're just taking Joe User's best example of what works as what they should produce. Then other times, they're showing evidence of totally unqualified personnel (hidden preview in font panel, Ken Burns effect UI). A lack of leadership in UI, or whatever this is, can't be good.
<strong>
Repeat after me:
Open
Another
Window
Use
The
Window
Menu
Or
Dock
Icon</strong><hr></blockquote>
Gawwwd save me!!!!
<img src="graemlins/oyvey.gif" border="0" alt="[oyvey]" /> You must be joking! <img src="graemlins/lol.gif" border="0" alt="[Laughing]" /> You then have a window under the one(s) you already have open. Then you have to either find it via the menu (pain in the a*s) or move them aside to find the one you want (pain in the a*s).
I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do.
<strong>
I often like to open "links in new windows" when surfing. Why? Because I don't want to freak'n wait for the reload time when clicking the back button when I'm only temporally clicking a link and will return to the original path I was in. The best solution to multiple windows is TABS!!! Get over it if you don't surf in that manner and stop bashing those who do.
That's exactly what I do, especially at forums like AI and that's what makes tabs very useful.
<strong>Crap.
Eugene.
Thanks a lot. You convinced me.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The way I see it, a tabbed pane is just like a window, except:
1) To get back to a tab you either have to click on a very specific (yet dynamic) location or use a key combo. A whole separate window allows for sloppier focus most of the time, or a similar key combo...or in the case of OS X, a unified location for a list of open windows.
2) You have no freedom to position a tab to be partially visible, unless somebody adds a split pane type feature to the tab interface...and it's still more limited than having an actual separate window.
3) They have a more permanent presence in your browser since they cannot be hidden without removing them. We are conditioned to vertical separation rather than horizontal. Compare a list of items lined up in a row or a column. Which is easier to read through? Now take your browser and open 5, 10, and 15 tabs. That's what I call clutter.
Tognazzini and Raskin aren't completely crazy, though Raskin is close. There are some pretty basic UI guidelines being broken here, IMO.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Eugene ]</p>
Again... if you really hate tabs, then don't use them. Don't tell me not to use them.
EDIT: I have a mouse (Logitech MX700) with lots of buttons that makes navigating tabs very easy. If not for this mouse, I'd probably use a multi-window browser.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: Luca Rescigno ]</p>
There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!
From a Human Interface Design perspective, the tabs in Safari aren't implemented in the cleanest and most intuitive of fashions.
Of course, this wasn't even released to the public, so it may be cleaned up before it is. It is still in beta, so improvement will come...
Can you guys imagine Windows users taking a forum thread to THREE PAGES worth in ONE NIGHT over a User Interface issue? Ha!
</moment of levity>
Now, my bitches, where were we?
Oh yeah....
I don't have a machine with a large monitor, screan real-estate is at a premium for me...ALWAYS. Kim Kap Sol asked about why someone would need to have a multitude of browser windows open....asking if we might be downloading pr0n.....
On my last project I would have to design a lot of logos on the fly. I would jump on the net and start working on finding existing signage as a basis for the vernacular of that type of product. I was jumping between a LOT of sites and working on two or three of these things at any given time. The ability to TURN ON a tabbed window behavior, a behavior of a SOFTWARE APPLICATION by the way, would have saved me time in managing all of those open windows as I showed them to the other designers and director.
Adherence to the UI is important, but golly gee I sure did use the collapsable menubar feature in IE quite a bit back when I used to run it.
I will personally look forward to switching on the Tabbed Window option in the next public release of Safari.
Woo Hoo!!
<strong>Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I disagree, as far as Chimera goes. Chimera's tabs don't clearly tell you how to close them. That is, it fails the age-old Mac philosophy of direct manipulation. (One of my complaints with drawers as well). In fact, they look and act just like static tabs you would expect in preference panes, except they magically disappear with a command-W! Very clumsy, which is not to say they aren't a big convenience, just poorly executed.
At least Safari goes a ways to address a couple of these issues, as Jonathan pointed out. In fact, I would go as far as to say that insofar as Safari's tabs are differentiated visually and functionally from standard tabs, then Apple is treading on kosher ground (nonstandard UI elements aside).
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: frawgz ]
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: frawgz ]</p>
<strong>One of the many UI problems with tabs has already reared its ugly head:
There *should* be ten tabs here. Where are the rest? Where is the CURRENT tab? As the window gets narrower, tabs just disappear. BAD UI. BAD!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yeah, that's just horrible UI. As for Xidius' remark, you shouldn't have to resize the window to get access to the other tabs. Granted, most people probably aren't using that many tabs (I use maybe about 5-6 tabs at most at any given time), but the tabs should be visible.
as for tabs, i loved them in chimera at first...but have found that with cable and airport i don't really miss them...page loading is so fast now...i do like the bookmarks bar and use that as my tabs...if i was on dial-up i would surely miss tabs....g
<strong>Could some one do me a favor and take a screen shot of the tabs with out the brushed metal? I just wanna see if they look all funny...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I never even thought of that, I too would like to see this.
<strong>
... It's like how Dodge, GM, Ford, etc. started advertising how their cars had a jizzillion cupholders tucked into every space imaginable. Is having 22 cupholders in your car really better than having 8?
</strong><hr></blockquote>
My car doesn't have any cupholders. I would like cupholders.