Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).
When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.
Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.
kim kap sol: there is nothing forcing tabbed browsing upon safari users. it's not the default behavior...
you can use it just as it is now, or you can use it with tabs.
i highly doubt that this will change in the future. newbies don't know tabs necessarily; the normal multiple window behavior will *i'm sure* remain default, with tabs being enabled somewhere in preferences or in the menus.
I really don't see what is wrong with having the option for something like this, which is preferred by many...
Every app can't be the interface holy grail. Sometimes, usability for a majority of the population comes from different UI paradigms than those that are fundamentally correct or perfect.
hey eugene i dont know bout you but i do as much as i can at one time with my mac and the dock is not fun when i have everything running. trying runninh ichat reading and playing warcraft 3 online. its fun. but it helps with ai. cuz i have like 5-10 windows open with ichat. so one window in chimera works. that and other times, i just hate having to work with my dock. way too many items to work with windows. but great for apps. if nething i would have my windows minimize to the side and leave my apps in the dock on the bottom. but back to the point, many windows work when you have just safari open i admit that. but when there is more than one it really sucks.
Why should Eugene or I be left out in the dust? </strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).
When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.
Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you know, i once thought of something like this...
except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.
When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...
<strong>I'm teasing... a little. In a facetious response to Hobbes' post, Photoshop is another app where I often have many windows open at once.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Well, at the risk of responding too seriously to being teased, same here -- window management in Photoshop can be real bitch sometimes. But, at least in my work habits, not to the same extent as browsing -- I'll rarely be working at a single browser window for a long period of time. Only when browsing do I find myself going through windows very quickly.
[quote]<strong>And for another facetious post, how silly does Apple's homepage with its tabs look with Safari's tabs just above them? </strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!
<strong>The interesting thing, if you look at the screenshots, is that Apple seems to acknowledge the evilness of the MDI interface; and by hanging the tabs from the top, it would SEEM that they are making it at least appear to the user that the global controls (back, forward, etc) are attached to each individual tab. (do you understand that? i'm not articulating particularly well tonight)
(snip)
I'm genuinely indifferent about them. I find them useful in some situations... and a nuisance in others. I think the attachment of a close box (perhaps multifunctional widget, who knows from screen shots alone) to each tab is a much better idea than the seperated 'close tab' widgets present in Chimera or DirectConnect...
I think this could shape up to be a good thing. No reports yet on rearrangeability, though...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a great point. It does look like Apple is trying to reduce the MDI-ness of tabbed browsing as much as possible.
The close tab widgets are very nicely done -- they even have a little subtle rollover effect, akin to an inactive window.
The way inactive tabs are recessed work nicely, as well.
Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not necessarly. Some windows aren't document windows. Pref windows and other windows like, for example, download managers.
And like you said, iApps and other apps that don't rely on multiple instances of it's own existance.
(ok. i admit i stopped reading the anti-tab ranting somewhere on the first page, but...)
Tabs are not Bad UI in any absolute sense.
For a web browser, especially on a smaller screen, they are great. And i say this as a lifetime Mac user who hates the Windows UI, and MDI.
Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).
The tabs take up a very small amount of screen real estate and allow rapid switching of sites.. perfect for exploring a link or two while keeping the original page open, all in instant reach.
I loved tabs the moment i tried them, and can't wait for the option to use them in Safari.
People preaching about tabs being 'bad for me' are, well, i'll keep my mouth shut, but i think they've been spoiled by giant screens, or maybe conditioned to hate anything even remotely associated with Windows UI.
I do find Windows implementation of multiple rows of tabs to be utterly horrible, BTW.. The 'dancing tabs' effect drives me nuts. But that's not happening here, so it's hardly relevant.
Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.
But Eugene, requiring users to manually stack their windows on top of one another is BAD interface. It's needless work. As is travelling to the Window menu or control-clicking the Dock just to see what windows you have open.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I often find myself moving windows anyway since pages are not all designed off one template, and unless you do subscribe to the maximized window paradigm, there's no getting around moving and resizing windows.
You still have to click on a tiny little tab to get to the background page. With a tiled window in the background, the tab is much bigger as well. Let's take AppleInsider for example. I open a thread. When I reply, I automatically right-click and open a new window for the reply because UBB's quoting system is messed up. Now I can select the text to be quoted in Safari, and drag it to the text box. I can also switch back and forth between your post and mine without clicking on the tabs.
In the end, tabs make you click more since you're hiding something every time. Tabs also screw up drag and drop ability.
Options are nice, but when they start promoting bad habits that detract from Mac OS style usability, I have to protest.
<strong>Have new Contextual Menus been implemented in v.62?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.
Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've been fine using Safari without tabs. That's not the point. The point is there's no reason not to have them. The peoplke that like them will use them. The people, like you, that don't like them won't use them.
<strong>Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Using a tab is one click.
Using the window menu or Dock is one click.
Using the window menu means going to a static location every single time. A tab's location is dependent on the window's location.
It's for the same reason why I pinned my dock to the right of my screen...so the trash can would stay put.
It really doesn't matter if I'm spoiled by a large screen. Tabs don't magically add real estate. Multiple windows don't necessarily take away real estate.
except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.
When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've just remember a cute idea I had awhile back...I mocked something up on MacNN awhile ago. Some people rejected the idea, but it was rather cool.
It'd be a system-wide behavior I'd like to see in 10.3...
It'd work like the shareware app LiteSwitch seen here:
The familiar cmd-tab key combo would bring up the overlay for active apps. But then another key combo (whatever Apple decides it should be) would bring up the active app's windows.
So instead of app icons...you'd get thumbnails + names of the app's windows. And you could keyboard through them, or simply use the mouse.
No sacrifice of screen space...no name truncation problems...added visual (thumbnails) to help with recognition of the window.
Edit: tabbed-browsing seems to be a power-user tool according to most people. I don't see mom and pops using it...they're mostly single-taskers that would freak out if you told them they could look at multiple webpages at once.
Seems like most of the tabbed-browsing interface is done through keyboard commands. cmd-t to tab etc...so I don't see why the page switching should be down via a key-combo to bring up the overlay of document-windows (webpages in Safari's case)...then either selected with the mouse or with the keyboard.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Troll on, bitch!
In other news today...
I like tabs because it makes what's onscreen more neat. You can have a few windows open, but when you are dealing with lots of documents you can use tabs. That way, you arn't constantly readjusting the windows to fit the contents onscreen.
Comments
When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.
Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.
you can use it just as it is now, or you can use it with tabs.
i highly doubt that this will change in the future. newbies don't know tabs necessarily; the normal multiple window behavior will *i'm sure* remain default, with tabs being enabled somewhere in preferences or in the menus.
I really don't see what is wrong with having the option for something like this, which is preferred by many...
Every app can't be the interface holy grail. Sometimes, usability for a majority of the population comes from different UI paradigms than those that are fundamentally correct or perfect.
<strong>
Why should Eugene or I be left out in the dust? </strong><hr></blockquote>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.
<strong>Someone mentionned bringing back the single-window mode from the DP days. I agree. But instead of making it single-window/app open at a time, it should only work for document-based apps (I'll use the term loosely to satisfy Jonathan's view that webpages are mini-apps).
When in single-window mode, another Dock should slide out of the Dock app's icon. It would be a second layer and would contain the document windows...and should only be out when the app that has single-window mode activated has focus.
Of course...Apple attaches the Dock to the bottom of the screen by default...this idea would be better if the Dock was attached to sides of the screen to not waste precious vertical space.</strong><hr></blockquote>
you know, i once thought of something like this...
except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.
When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...
<strong>I'm teasing... a little. In a facetious response to Hobbes' post, Photoshop is another app where I often have many windows open at once.<hr></blockquote></strong>
Well, at the risk of responding too seriously to being teased, same here -- window management in Photoshop can be real bitch sometimes. But, at least in my work habits, not to the same extent as browsing -- I'll rarely be working at a single browser window for a long period of time. Only when browsing do I find myself going through windows very quickly.
[quote]<strong>And for another facetious post, how silly does Apple's homepage with its tabs look with Safari's tabs just above them?
Weird.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>
How the hell are you two being left out in the dust? IF YOU DON'T LIKE TABS DON'T USE THEM. You guys obvious like having multiple windows open so obviously you're not being left out in the dust. You'll continue doing what you like.</strong><hr></blockquote>
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!
Have new Contextual Menus been implemented in v.62?
And can some of the more privileged here plz fire up their copy of Acquisition..
<strong>The interesting thing, if you look at the screenshots, is that Apple seems to acknowledge the evilness of the MDI interface; and by hanging the tabs from the top, it would SEEM that they are making it at least appear to the user that the global controls (back, forward, etc) are attached to each individual tab. (do you understand that? i'm not articulating particularly well tonight)
(snip)
I'm genuinely indifferent about them. I find them useful in some situations... and a nuisance in others. I think the attachment of a close box (perhaps multifunctional widget, who knows from screen shots alone) to each tab is a much better idea than the seperated 'close tab' widgets present in Chimera or DirectConnect...
I think this could shape up to be a good thing. No reports yet on rearrangeability, though...</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's a great point. It does look like Apple is trying to reduce the MDI-ness of tabbed browsing as much as possible.
The close tab widgets are very nicely done -- they even have a little subtle rollover effect, akin to an inactive window.
The way inactive tabs are recessed work nicely, as well.
They're not re-arrangeable yet, at least in v62.
<strong>
Aren't all apps document-based? Well, except maybe the iApps and other "framework" which are organizational/database-like front-ends.</strong><hr></blockquote>
Not necessarly. Some windows aren't document windows. Pref windows and other windows like, for example, download managers.
And like you said, iApps and other apps that don't rely on multiple instances of it's own existance.
Tabs are not Bad UI in any absolute sense.
For a web browser, especially on a smaller screen, they are great. And i say this as a lifetime Mac user who hates the Windows UI, and MDI.
Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).
The tabs take up a very small amount of screen real estate and allow rapid switching of sites.. perfect for exploring a link or two while keeping the original page open, all in instant reach.
I loved tabs the moment i tried them, and can't wait for the option to use them in Safari.
People preaching about tabs being 'bad for me' are, well, i'll keep my mouth shut, but i think they've been spoiled by giant screens, or maybe conditioned to hate anything even remotely associated with Windows UI.
I do find Windows implementation of multiple rows of tabs to be utterly horrible, BTW.. The 'dancing tabs' effect drives me nuts. But that's not happening here, so it's hardly relevant.
Tabs can be implemented badly, or acceptably, and i see nothing horribly wrong with Chimera (or Safari's) implementation.
-robo
<strong>
But Eugene, requiring users to manually stack their windows on top of one another is BAD interface. It's needless work. As is travelling to the Window menu or control-clicking the Dock just to see what windows you have open.</strong><hr></blockquote>
I often find myself moving windows anyway since pages are not all designed off one template, and unless you do subscribe to the maximized window paradigm, there's no getting around moving and resizing windows.
You still have to click on a tiny little tab to get to the background page. With a tiled window in the background, the tab is much bigger as well. Let's take AppleInsider for example. I open a thread. When I reply, I automatically right-click and open a new window for the reply because UBB's quoting system is messed up. Now I can select the text to be quoted in Safari, and drag it to the text box. I can also switch back and forth between your post and mine without clicking on the tabs.
In the end, tabs make you click more since you're hiding something every time. Tabs also screw up drag and drop ability.
Options are nice, but when they start promoting bad habits that detract from Mac OS style usability, I have to protest.
<strong>
Weird.
Now try it with the bookmarks bar on!
<strong>Have new Contextual Menus been implemented in v.62?</strong><hr></blockquote>
Only if tabbed browsing is turned on (e.g. "Open link in new tab"), as far as I've noticed.
Some other observations: when tabbed browsing is on, command-clicking will open a link in a new tab; command-option-clicking will open the link in a new window. Command-W closes the tab, command-shift-W (or clicking the standard red close widget) closes the window. Shift-command left and right arrow toggle through tabs.
[ 02-23-2003: Message edited by: Hobbes ]</p>
<strong>
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've been fine using Safari without tabs. That's not the point. The point is there's no reason not to have them. The peoplke that like them will use them. The people, like you, that don't like them won't use them.
<strong>Using the dock is slow and annoying (you have to 'feel around' to see which window is which, waiting for names to pop up), and using the Window menu is more steps (and slower).</strong><hr></blockquote>
Using a tab is one click.
Using the window menu or Dock is one click.
Using the window menu means going to a static location every single time. A tab's location is dependent on the window's location.
It's for the same reason why I pinned my dock to the right of my screen...so the trash can would stay put.
It really doesn't matter if I'm spoiled by a large screen. Tabs don't magically add real estate. Multiple windows don't necessarily take away real estate.
<strong>Now try it with the bookmarks bar on!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Yup. It's a bit goofy. I instinctively turned it off when trying out the tabs.
It's funny how quickly one acclimatizes, though. It already feels like I've been using tabbed browsing in Safari for ages.
<strong>
except mine went one step fourther by hiding the dock by default; it would be triggered by the 'apple menu' - and slide ouit and stay there until turned off. it would fill the entire left of the screen, but maybe have text labels under each icon? IDK exactly. Current Apple menu functions would be in some sort of iconlet in the dock/menu thingy.
When i get a chance, i'll mock somethign up. it's not terribly start-menu-like... it may sound it, but it isn't...</strong><hr></blockquote>
I've just remember a cute idea I had awhile back...I mocked something up on MacNN awhile ago. Some people rejected the idea, but it was rather cool.
It'd be a system-wide behavior I'd like to see in 10.3...
It'd work like the shareware app LiteSwitch seen here:
The familiar cmd-tab key combo would bring up the overlay for active apps. But then another key combo (whatever Apple decides it should be) would bring up the active app's windows.
So instead of app icons...you'd get thumbnails + names of the app's windows. And you could keyboard through them, or simply use the mouse.
No sacrifice of screen space...no name truncation problems...added visual (thumbnails) to help with recognition of the window.
Edit: tabbed-browsing seems to be a power-user tool according to most people. I don't see mom and pops using it...they're mostly single-taskers that would freak out if you told them they could look at multiple webpages at once.
Seems like most of the tabbed-browsing interface is done through keyboard commands. cmd-t to tab etc...so I don't see why the page switching should be down via a key-combo to bring up the overlay of document-windows (webpages in Safari's case)...then either selected with the mouse or with the keyboard.
[ 02-24-2003: Message edited by: kim kap sol ]</p>
<strong>
If you don't like Safari sans tabs...DON'T USE IT!</strong><hr></blockquote>
Troll on, bitch!
In other news today...
I like tabs because it makes what's onscreen more neat. You can have a few windows open, but when you are dealing with lots of documents you can use tabs. That way, you arn't constantly readjusting the windows to fit the contents onscreen.
Barto