Apple currently does in fact compete in the $599 range, only $99 above your lower limit of $500. It just happens that at this time the Mac mini isn't a very good value even for its' target market, those that place a very high premium on size.
There is more to a market space than just the price point. The iMac mini doesn't compete with desktop PCs because it offers something they do not (small & compact size) and eschews things they provide (expandability, user configurability, high performance drives, high end GPU options, etc). If this were Apple's attempt to go after people who actually need (or crave) a "mini-tower", its a piss poor one.
Quote:
You price range also includes the range from $800 ot $1500 in the low margin category. While these may not, and I stress "may not" have the stratoshperic gross margins of 35% they most certainly are not low margin computers for any manufacturer by any stretch of the imagination.
Below $500 or thereabouts is arguably the "no margin" category where loss leaders exist to attract people to a company's products (i.e. get them in the door). The low margin range above that is where the configurable spec-maxed desktop towers have existed for quite some time now. These machines are aimed at the buyer who wants the best specs, wants them at a streamlined price, wants to select the specific desired components, and wants to be able to upgrade them later. They are a rather greedy bunch who want it all but don't want to pay for it. They tend to have a fair bit of disposable income. This market segment is typically populated by the same kind of guys who populate the gamer market, who run Linux and tweak their kernels, etc. This group has a strong tendency is believe that it is The Market, and therefore anyone not selling to them is out of their minds and sure to go out of business any day now. They tend to talk loudly about these things on the Internet, and write lots of reviews. They are extremely influential, and are the very group that created the home computer market in the first place. If you're offended by this blurb, you're probably in this part of the market.
Guess what? This isn't the only market... not even close. Nintendo has demonstrated that in spades with the Wii, and Apple has been demonstrating that for years by continuing to survive. Currently Apple is content (nay, happy!) to sell to the people not in that part of the market, plus any of those who are in it that they can convince that they don't really need all those things they thought they wanted.
Blah, blah. Programmer. There's no denying Apple made their own luck in the last 10 years. Much of it owed to the iPod, Os X and the switch to Intel/bootcamp. And the correlation in sales seem to back that up. And I'll give them credit for a strikingly mainstream design of the new iMac. Desktop sales abound? Well, certainly no credit to the sucky Mac Pro or the Stale Mac Pro if you want its full title... And the Mini. Well...erm.
Quote:
Apple writes these blanket drivers for Nvidia cards that cover their whole spectrum. They need at least two drivers, one for Geforce, and one for Quadros - then they need to let the Macs boot BIOS and EFI so we can use the whole range of Nvidia cards from any manufacturer. ATI on the other hand writes their own shit, but I still say Apple needs to wake up, and shake up their desktop line by allowing this so Mac and Mac/windows Boot-camp users can choose the Mac as a gaming rig. It should open up to better Mac sales, not to mention the semi-pro single processor tower that many users would appreciate. With an adjustment like this in their line-up Apple could dominate desktop sales. And quit using the deskop market is slowing excuse to explain their desktop strategy failure.
Finally, something I wanted to hear. Just make it a non-issue Apple. Give us GPU choice and a Mid-tower. Nobody doubts a Slim note book is coming for their beloved laptop range. But the mid-tower is as obvious a need as why the Cube failed. Grr.
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
Yes, and FORD owns Jaguar - among others. What's your point? \
They are not manufactured at DELL. It was a buyout although nothing has changed with Alienware other than they are no longer worried about getting into financial trouble.
Yes, and FORD owns Jaguar - among others. What's your point? \
They are not manufactured at DELL. It was a buyout although nothing has changed with Alienware other than they are no longer worried about getting into financial trouble.
I just find it weird when people refer to Alienware as Alienware, instead of Dell. I thought everything was being migrated to Dell.
The only thing I've seen between DELL, and Alienware are similarities that I've seen between FORD, and Jaguar. If you look at DELL's computers you can see some Alienware qualities in a some of their higher end desktops, just like some of FORD's cars after buying Jaguar. That's about the only thing I've noticed so far, and it's been quite a while. Your never going to see FORD change the Jaguar name to FORD, and I don't think you'll ever see Alienware go anywhere either. Unless DELL decides to liquidate them which I have heard no plans of them to do that yet.
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
Well, APple, I'm waiting for better gpus...c'mon...you can do it...what's the freakin' hold up?
Its more like you've been reminding Apple about the mini-tower market and they've been ignoring you. Actually I think ignoring is probably too strong... they've been thinking different.
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
I looked on the Alienware page, and I don't think that they sell 45nm Xeons - the processors are "Core 2 Extreme". I have no idea what the differences are, though.
I plan on getting a Mac Pro next summer, World of Warcraft needs something a little stronger than my macbook pro c2d, I am having a lot of heat and performance problems with the notebook. The Alienware rig seems pretty ugly and expensive compared to a mac pro - my $3500 budget looks like it would get a much nicer Mac Pro than it would get from Alienware, not even counting the better OS and nicer looks from Apple.
I don't want to flame you or anything, but getting a MacPro just for WoW is really wasting money.
You could probably get a PC for less than 1000$ that will play WoW just as good, if not better, depending on how fast Apple gets their thumbs out of their asses in respect to GPU choice.
I don't want to flame you or anything, but getting a MacPro just for WoW is really wasting money.
You could probably get a PC for less than 1000$ that will play WoW just as good, if not better, depending on how fast Apple gets their thumbs out of their asses in respect to GPU choice.
If WoW was available on Linux, I would agree with you - but I am allergic to Windows. I am convinced that using Microsoft products will reduce my life expectancy, and reduce the quality of my family life by making me angry and frustrated all the time.
I'm not kidding, btw.
But my macbook pro is marginal for WoW (almost good enough, but not quite), so probably the best bet is a discounted current version Mac Pro (with the ATI x1900 video card) once the new one comes out.
I could have sworn that I read someone on some other board bragging that they managed to flash the EFI firmware to the 1950 to some cheaper PC card.
I could be wrong though.
Are you saying having an x1900xt and going to a 1950? Gotta be careful when reading stuff about graphics cards for macs. Most of the graphics cards discussions are for the hackintoshes. Most the people I know that have one use the x1950 (in some form or another). I use an NVidia 7900gt. All of these are BIOS cards... and will work but need special drivers to show up during boot up.
It's also possible to have 2 cards, and boot off of a crappy card like a 7300gt and use the bios card for gaming, but you need drivers and kexts. It's not that bad, but a little messy. Messy enough that, this is the main reason I don't want a hack any more. 2 big bugs: A) Some software wants apple genuine serial numbers and when it doesn't read it, it crashes (adobe cs3). The graphics drivers for unsupported cards still have issues (7900gt and gs get graphics glitches, haven't tested other cards).
All in all. If this Hack stuff improves much more, and now that you can convert a store bought leopard dvd to be a hack so easily and not have to download pirated ones, I might go back to trying to build one again. I think others may as well. And the software agreement on leopard? It can be ran on any Apple-labeled computers (I have 2 apple stickers on my case).
Point being, more and more people are going to be doing this if it gets much easier. All the people that want a gaming computer, a family computer with os x, all the people that want the xMac or mac tower. The Mac Pro isn't priced for these people and never will be... it's a work station.
The Mac Pro is a great machine, but not fitted for everyone. And certainly will not bring us a bunch of upgrade cards. So yah, I'd like to see either cheaper mac pros or another tower out there. I'm sure a lot of us would. Apple will never "think right" though
Are you saying having an x1900xt and going to a 1950? Gotta be careful when reading stuff about graphics cards for macs. Most of the graphics cards discussions are for the hackintoshes. Most the people I know that have one use the x1950 (in some form or another). I use an NVidia 7900gt. All of these are BIOS cards... and will work but need special drivers to show up during boot up.
It was on a regular Mac forum, but I got the model number wrong. I thought the current Apple model was 1950-based. I didn't type all the extra letters because I hate those designations. The point being, this person claimed they put the Mac-compatible EFI firmware from the Mac version into the PC version, though I expect with some rejiggering.
Comments
Apple currently does in fact compete in the $599 range, only $99 above your lower limit of $500. It just happens that at this time the Mac mini isn't a very good value even for its' target market, those that place a very high premium on size.
There is more to a market space than just the price point. The iMac mini doesn't compete with desktop PCs because it offers something they do not (small & compact size) and eschews things they provide (expandability, user configurability, high performance drives, high end GPU options, etc). If this were Apple's attempt to go after people who actually need (or crave) a "mini-tower", its a piss poor one.
You price range also includes the range from $800 ot $1500 in the low margin category. While these may not, and I stress "may not" have the stratoshperic gross margins of 35% they most certainly are not low margin computers for any manufacturer by any stretch of the imagination.
Below $500 or thereabouts is arguably the "no margin" category where loss leaders exist to attract people to a company's products (i.e. get them in the door). The low margin range above that is where the configurable spec-maxed desktop towers have existed for quite some time now. These machines are aimed at the buyer who wants the best specs, wants them at a streamlined price, wants to select the specific desired components, and wants to be able to upgrade them later. They are a rather greedy bunch who want it all but don't want to pay for it. They tend to have a fair bit of disposable income. This market segment is typically populated by the same kind of guys who populate the gamer market, who run Linux and tweak their kernels, etc. This group has a strong tendency is believe that it is The Market, and therefore anyone not selling to them is out of their minds and sure to go out of business any day now. They tend to talk loudly about these things on the Internet, and write lots of reviews. They are extremely influential, and are the very group that created the home computer market in the first place. If you're offended by this blurb, you're probably in this part of the market.
Guess what? This isn't the only market... not even close. Nintendo has demonstrated that in spades with the Wii, and Apple has been demonstrating that for years by continuing to survive. Currently Apple is content (nay, happy!) to sell to the people not in that part of the market, plus any of those who are in it that they can convince that they don't really need all those things they thought they wanted.
Apple writes these blanket drivers for Nvidia cards that cover their whole spectrum. They need at least two drivers, one for Geforce, and one for Quadros - then they need to let the Macs boot BIOS and EFI so we can use the whole range of Nvidia cards from any manufacturer. ATI on the other hand writes their own shit, but I still say Apple needs to wake up, and shake up their desktop line by allowing this so Mac and Mac/windows Boot-camp users can choose the Mac as a gaming rig. It should open up to better Mac sales, not to mention the semi-pro single processor tower that many users would appreciate. With an adjustment like this in their line-up Apple could dominate desktop sales. And quit using the deskop market is slowing excuse to explain their desktop strategy failure.
Finally, something I wanted to hear. Just make it a non-issue Apple. Give us GPU choice and a Mid-tower. Nobody doubts a Slim note book is coming for their beloved laptop range. But the mid-tower is as obvious a need as why the Cube failed. Grr.
Lemon Bon Bon.
This isn't the only market... not even close.
YEah, we've been telling Apple that for years....
Lemon Bon Bon.
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
You DO know that dell owns them right?
You DO know that dell owns them right?
Yes, and FORD owns Jaguar - among others. What's your point?
They are not manufactured at DELL. It was a buyout although nothing has changed with Alienware other than they are no longer worried about getting into financial trouble.
Yes, and FORD owns Jaguar - among others. What's your point?
They are not manufactured at DELL. It was a buyout although nothing has changed with Alienware other than they are no longer worried about getting into financial trouble.
Wow, that was an awesome comeback!
I just find it weird when people refer to Alienware as Alienware, instead of Dell. I thought everything was being migrated to Dell.
The only thing I've seen between DELL, and Alienware are similarities that I've seen between FORD, and Jaguar. If you look at DELL's computers you can see some Alienware qualities in a some of their higher end desktops, just like some of FORD's cars after buying Jaguar. That's about the only thing I've noticed so far, and it's been quite a while. Your never going to see FORD change the Jaguar name to FORD, and I don't think you'll ever see Alienware go anywhere either. Unless DELL decides to liquidate them which I have heard no plans of them to do that yet.
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
Well, APple, I'm waiting for better gpus...c'mon...you can do it...what's the freakin' hold up?
Blasted Macworld.
Grumbles*
Lemon Bon Bon.
YEah, we've been telling Apple that for years....
While Apple hasn't fired up any Penryn-based Mac Pros yet, I just configured a Quad core Alienware with 2x 8800 GTS's in SLI, 4GB of RAM, 1TB of storage, DVD-RW, and a Blu-Ray reader/writer for the fun of it, and I say they are definitely making the ultimate desktop computers in the business right now. For just under 5G's I configured one of the sweetest systems I could imagine. It was freaking sick!
I looked on the Alienware page, and I don't think that they sell 45nm Xeons - the processors are "Core 2 Extreme". I have no idea what the differences are, though.
I plan on getting a Mac Pro next summer, World of Warcraft needs something a little stronger than my macbook pro c2d, I am having a lot of heat and performance problems with the notebook. The Alienware rig seems pretty ugly and expensive compared to a mac pro - my $3500 budget looks like it would get a much nicer Mac Pro than it would get from Alienware, not even counting the better OS and nicer looks from Apple.
You could probably get a PC for less than 1000$ that will play WoW just as good, if not better, depending on how fast Apple gets their thumbs out of their asses in respect to GPU choice.
I don't want to flame you or anything, but getting a MacPro just for WoW is really wasting money.
You could probably get a PC for less than 1000$ that will play WoW just as good, if not better, depending on how fast Apple gets their thumbs out of their asses in respect to GPU choice.
If WoW was available on Linux, I would agree with you - but I am allergic to Windows. I am convinced that using Microsoft products will reduce my life expectancy, and reduce the quality of my family life by making me angry and frustrated all the time.
I'm not kidding, btw.
But my macbook pro is marginal for WoW (almost good enough, but not quite), so probably the best bet is a discounted current version Mac Pro (with the ATI x1900 video card) once the new one comes out.
http://www.electronista.com/articles...adeon.hd.3800/
New graphics cards from AMD... where are the mac versions ;p
http://www.electronista.com/articles...adeon.hd.3800/
Maybe there would be more if the Mac fans aren't so quick to just copy the firmware onto some other card.
Maybe there would be more if the Mac fans aren't so quick to just copy the firmware onto some other card.
I wasn't aware you could do that with today's cards? You need an EFI compatible card to see anything before the desktop.... no?
I thought the ATI 8500 was the last card it was done with.
I wasn't aware you could do that with today's cards? You need an EFI compatible card to see anything before the desktop.... no?
I thought the ATI 8500 was the last card it was done with.
I could have sworn that I read someone on some other board bragging that they managed to flash the EFI firmware to the 1950 to some cheaper PC card.
I could be wrong though.
I could have sworn that I read someone on some other board bragging that they managed to flash the EFI firmware to the 1950 to some cheaper PC card.
I could be wrong though.
Are you saying having an x1900xt and going to a 1950? Gotta be careful when reading stuff about graphics cards for macs. Most of the graphics cards discussions are for the hackintoshes. Most the people I know that have one use the x1950 (in some form or another). I use an NVidia 7900gt. All of these are BIOS cards... and will work but need special drivers to show up during boot up.
It's also possible to have 2 cards, and boot off of a crappy card like a 7300gt and use the bios card for gaming, but you need drivers and kexts. It's not that bad, but a little messy. Messy enough that, this is the main reason I don't want a hack any more. 2 big bugs: A) Some software wants apple genuine serial numbers and when it doesn't read it, it crashes (adobe cs3).
All in all. If this Hack stuff improves much more, and now that you can convert a store bought leopard dvd to be a hack so easily and not have to download pirated ones, I might go back to trying to build one again. I think others may as well. And the software agreement on leopard? It can be ran on any Apple-labeled computers (I have 2 apple stickers on my case).
Point being, more and more people are going to be doing this if it gets much easier. All the people that want a gaming computer, a family computer with os x, all the people that want the xMac or mac tower. The Mac Pro isn't priced for these people and never will be... it's a work station.
The Mac Pro is a great machine, but not fitted for everyone. And certainly will not bring us a bunch of upgrade cards. So yah, I'd like to see either cheaper mac pros or another tower out there. I'm sure a lot of us would. Apple will never "think right" though
Are you saying having an x1900xt and going to a 1950? Gotta be careful when reading stuff about graphics cards for macs. Most of the graphics cards discussions are for the hackintoshes. Most the people I know that have one use the x1950 (in some form or another). I use an NVidia 7900gt. All of these are BIOS cards... and will work but need special drivers to show up during boot up.
It was on a regular Mac forum, but I got the model number wrong. I thought the current Apple model was 1950-based. I didn't type all the extra letters because I hate those designations. The point being, this person claimed they put the Mac-compatible EFI firmware from the Mac version into the PC version, though I expect with some rejiggering.