Steve Jobs talks future Mac OS X upgrades, Mac sales, and more

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  • Reply 121 of 155
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post


    As a visitor I find American sales tax more 'hidden' anyway, since when one is used to paying the price on the label, you suddenly find yourself paying more at the checkout, and it's normally something obscure like $14.03



    How can it be hidden if you go to the counter, and the sales receipt says = Sales tax? VAT is hidden, because mostly (though I've sometimes seen +VAT in some ads.) all you know is the total.



    Quote:

    I'd gladly give up our hefty 17.5% sales tax on pretty much any good though, to have prices like yours. That is why I buy a lot of my Apple stuff in NJ shhhh don't tell UK customs!!



    I would have to believe that there are costs to Apple involved (shipping, distribution), and that the higher price is also due to the VAT, and possibly some import duties, or taxes.



    Even here in the States, we sometimes see higher costs on one side of the country due to shipping.
  • Reply 122 of 155
    ronsterronster Posts: 153member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post


    Actually the biggest issue with both the Macbook and the Mini is the GPU. It's not that they won't support games, they can't even support all iLife app functions. iLife are consumer, not pro apps at the very least these systems should support every function in every iLife application.



    Keynote is a perfect example. Apple has always been behind when it comes to pairing their systems with decent GPU's and the correct amount of ram to match the system. iMac perfect example, there isn't any reason on earth why that system should come standard with 2gigs of ram.





    Looking at both sides of the equation, the GPU on the Mac Mini ( the closest thing to a desktop ) is either a non-issue or a roadblock. For the majority of consumers / M$ switchers, the GPU will provide most of the functionality needed on a daily basis. For the discriminating power user, the GPU won't cut the mustard. Will Apple give these people an option...maybe as a CTO?



    Myself I am waiting until the end of Oct to switch over to Mac from M$, quietly hoping Apple does upgrade the Mini (or it's rumored replacement) to a GM965 platform, with it's X3100 GPU...if not then it's Mac Mini for me (probably)



    The again this discussion was about Leopard, future upgrade schedules and the fact laptops out sell desktops....my work's IT dept said it best.."people don't want desktops, they prefer laptops...our desktops are still sitting in their cardboard boxes they were shipped in..."



    Just an opinion.
  • Reply 123 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ronster View Post


    Looking at both sides of the equation, the GPU on the Mac Mini ( the closest thing to a desktop ) is either a non-issue or a roadblock. For the majority of consumers / M$ switchers, the GPU will provide most of the functionality needed on a daily basis. For the discriminating power user, the GPU won't cut the mustard. Will Apple give these people an option...maybe as a CTO?



    Myself I am waiting until the end of Oct to switch over to Mac from M$, quietly hoping Apple does upgrade the Mini (or it's rumored replacement) to a GM965 platform, with it's X3100 GPU...if not then it's Mac Mini for me (probably)



    The again this discussion was about Leopard, future upgrade schedules and the fact laptops out sell desktops....my work's IT dept said it best.."people don't want desktops, they prefer laptops...our desktops are still sitting in their cardboard boxes they were shipped in..."



    Just an opinion.



    Well actually the news article linked to this thread also talks about "Mac Sales".



    I don't believe a blanket statement that people just want laptops, I have never wanted just a laptop in fact based on the work I do a 24" monitor works very well for me, in fact two of them works even better.



    I carry a laptop back and forth to work because I have too but when im at home I would rather use a desktop because why work on a 17" screen when I can work with 24" of space?



    Also at the risk fo going off topic more I have never understood the bashing regarding MS or Dell when it comes to hardware and software. Apple does not compete with MS nor does it compete with any of the hardware vendors that run Windows OS. The simple fact is OsX is a closed platform it can only run on Apple hardware, as long as that fact reamain the only competition that Apple has is with its own ability to be innovative.



    Apple hardware has always been way behind the cure but people like myself buy it to use their OS, fact is if OSX worked on a Sony Viao, Apple macbook pro sales would nose dive.



    My Sony which has just as good of a hardware rep as Apple is at the same price point as a Macbook Pro, has a better GPU, full 1080p and a blu-ray drive, with an HDMI port. It will be the year 2015 before a Macbook Pro has that.



    Fact is Apple hardware isn't any better than anyone else and they know it, it's the reason they keep OSX closed to Apple hardware only. I hear people dispute this but there is never any logic behind it. Macbook Pro's use the same ram, same gpu, same intel chip even the same battery as everyone else.
  • Reply 124 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post


    Also at the risk fo going off topic more I have never understood the bashing regarding MS or Dell when it comes to hardware and software.





    I think that has more to do with history between Dell and Apple, and MS and Apple.





    Quote:

    Apple hardware has always been way behind the cure but people like myself buy it to use their OS, fact is if OSX worked on a Sony Viao, Apple macbook pro sales would nose dive.



    Will it take a hit? Sure. Will it nose dive? I seriously doubt it. If you think Sony hardware is that desirable (compared to other PC laptop vendors), you're getting dangerously close to Sony fanboy territory



    True, some people buy Apple systems for the OS and not necessarily the hardware. But for every one of you guys, there's a person who buys them for the hardware and not the OS. True, Apple hardware may not always have the latest and greatest innards, but they do have a reputation of being sturdy, reliable, and aesthetically pleasing. I'm not saying all of those claims are always true; but it is true that many people buy Apple hardware because of that reputation (and not necessarily because of their desire for the OS).
  • Reply 125 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by rawhead View Post


    I think that has more to do with history between Dell and Apple, and MS and Apple.









    Will it take a hit? Sure. Will it nose dive? I seriously doubt it. If you think Sony hardware is that desirable (compared to other PC laptop vendors), you're getting dangerously close to Sony fanboy territory



    True, some people buy Apple systems for the OS and not necessarily the hardware. But for every one of you guys, there's a person who buys them for the hardware and not the OS. True, Apple hardware may not always have the latest and greatest innards, but they do have a reputation of being sturdy, reliable, and aesthetically pleasing. I'm not saying all of those claims are always true; but it is true that many people buy Apple hardware because of that reputation (and not necessarily because of their desire for the OS).



    I've always found Apples "desktop" systems to be above and beyond conventional desktops systems when it comes to repairs, however I can't say my experience with their notebooks have been the same. I believe Apple always tries to fit 5lbs into a 4lbs bag just enough to create excessive heat issues.



    Sony products have just always worked well for me, just a personal choice im sure there are people with horror stories.



    There will always people people, maybe myself included that would by Apple hardware based on form factor, but overall I believe Apple hardware would take a major hit if OSX was openly available to install on your system of choice.



    Apples hardware profit margins are huge, how many actually upgrade with Apple ram, not many.



    Now if you took an HP notebook configured it exactly to the same specs as a 17" Macbook Pro it comes out about 1000.00 less. Sure you can debate quality but for 1000.00 there are going to be a ton or people willing to take that chance and buy a 3 year service contract something they already do with a Macbook Pro.



    So yeah it is my opinion that hardware sales would drop sharply. I believe Steve Jobs believes that also, what other reason would Apple have not allowing their OS to be open to any system, logic points to hardware profits.
  • Reply 126 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post


    I believe Steve Jobs believes that also, what other reason would Apple have not allowing their OS to be open to any system, logic points to hardware profits.





    Well of course, for the most part, that is true (although there's arguably another very good reason, discussed below). It's been said again and again that Apple is primarily a hardware company. They make money selling Macs, not OSX. Take today's earnings report, a great example. They talked about how many hundreds of thousands of Macs they sold, how many millions of iPods and iPhones they sold. They didn't get into how many copies of Tiger they sold, because that's not where their main revenues are.



    Again, they make money selling the hardware, and use good chunks of the profits for R&D on the OS (and other software), and that's why we get such a great OS for the relatively cheap price of $129. If Apple let other PCs freely run OSX, they'd basically be giving away their R&D for free. It just won't happen.



    What COULD happen, is special licensing, where, e.g., certain VAIOs may run OSX, but OSX will never be just *open* to any system that's out there.





    The other point, kind of related to the degree of openness of the OS, is support. One of the reasons Apple systems are so great is because of the tight integration between the software and the hardware. If OSX was open to all PCs, that would create the driver nightmare you see with PCs and Windows. Apple having control of both is, from a technical standpoint, a good thing.





    Does that introduce a price premium on the hardware? Of course it does, but not nearly as much as it used to in the olden days. Apple just can't afford to be as arrogant with their pricing structure as they used to, especially not in this day and age where Macs' innards are basically identical to PCs.
  • Reply 127 of 155
    eluardeluard Posts: 319member
    My first post for a long time. \



    In my view Apple has the right idea wrt the scheduling of OS revisions, and MS is wrong. Updating every 18 months means that the OS developers know roughly what the hardware will look like by the time they've finished. Taking 4-6 years to bring out an OS means, almost inevitably, that the first few years have to be thrown away because hardware development makes it redundant. So all development will happen in the final 18 months anyway, as happened with Vista.



    And I don't believe anyone in their right mind wants an OS to be by subscription: the worst idea ever.



    Proud to be a rhotic speaker in a non-rhotic land! Full stop.
  • Reply 128 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    There's no reason apple's cheapest expandable box should be $2499?



    Firstly, I would suggest that you get your facts straight. Apple's lowest expandable lists at $2200.



    Secondly, just what would you do if Apple did come out with a desktop as you so described? What would you add? What would it finally cost?What would be the difference of your newly configured desktop and a Mac Mini? And would you expect that Apply fully honor its warranty with everything that you have done to it?
  • Reply 129 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    I love England,? However, may I respectfully point out that we invented cars,?



    The honor goes to Karl Benz. And he was from Germany, just in case you didn't recognize the name.
  • Reply 130 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Mr. H View Post


    No, that is not boogas' logic.



    His logic is that the overall market split is about 50/50 desktop to laptop, but Apple is only selling 1/3 desktops. i.e., relative to the number of laptops they are selling, Apple aren't selling "enough" desktops (it should be 1/2, not 1/3).



    The gap between laptop sales and desktop is closing.



    From today's 8-K



    Desktop Sales total Units: 817,000

    Portables Sales total Units: 1,347,000



    That's not 1/3rd Desktop and 2/3rds Portable.



    Desktops: 37.75%

    Portables: 62.25%



    Q3 2007



    Desktop Sales total Units: 634,000

    Portables Sales total Units: 1,130,000



    Desktops: 35.94%

    Portables: 64.06%



    The change(deltas) for both desktop and laptop were 29% and 19%, respectfully.



    Will this trend continue with Leopard? Perhaps. If it does then Apple most likely will pay more attention to it's desktop market. However, not likely until Penryn and Nehalem chipsets are released for their systems.



    The next major product upgrades that are overdue include the Mac Pro and XServe product lines.



    The rumor of a new MacBook Pro coming out makes more sense when Intel ramps up the new Penryn which they claim run at only 25W.



    Mac Pros and Xserves both use Xeons.



    http://www.intel.com/technology/arch...e+rhc_45m_hi-k



    Hell, Penryn was announced in January 2007 but won't be here until winter 2007 for use.



    Next comes Nehalem which is already done.



    This paper about Penryn includes what Nehalem will bring which clearly seems perfect for XServes and highend Mac Pros.



    http://www.intel.com/technology/arch...whitepaper.pdf



    Nehalem?s dynamic scalability delivers performance on demand through:

    ? Dynamically managed cores, threads, cache, interfaces, and power All three platforms here

    ? Leveraging leading 4-instruction issue Intel Core microarchitecture

    technology (Intel Core microarchitecture?s ability to process up to

    4 instructions per clock cycle on a sustained basis as compared to

    3 instructions per clock cycle or less for other processors)

    ? Simultaneous multi-threading (Intel Hyper-Threading Technology ?)

    to enhance performance and energy efficiency

    ? Innovative new Intel® SSE4 and ATA instruction set additions

    ? Superior multi-level shared cache

    ? Leadership system and memory bandwidth

    ? Performance-enhanced dynamic power management

    Nehalem?s design scalability will enable optimal price/performance/

    energy efficiency for each market segment through:

    ? New system architecture for next-generation Intel processors

    and platforms

    ? Scalable performance for from one-to-sixteen (or more) threads

    and from one-to-eight (or more) cores

    ? Scalable and configurable system interconnects and integrated

    memory controllers
    -- Xserve.

    ? High-performance integrated graphics engine for client platforms -- MacBook only? We'll have to see how well these system work, but



    If Apple produces a future iMac that offers a BTO for it's GPU that isn't weak then that will most likely be what Apple does before it produces a separate mid-tower for the BTO PC user.



    Penryn is supposed to do the following:



    Quote:

    Super Shuffle Engine

    Implementing a full-width, single-pass shuffle unit that is 128-bits

    wide, Penryn processors can perform full-width shuffles in a single

    cycle. This doubles the speed for most byte, word, or dword SSE data

    shuffle operations and significantly reduces latency and throughput

    for SSE2, SSE3 and Intel SSE4 instructions that have shuffle-like

    operations like pack, unpack and wider packed shifts. This capability

    will provide a general performance improvement in a broad range of

    SSE algorithms.



    Fast Radix-16 Divider

    Penryn processors provide faster divide performance, roughly

    doubling the divider speed over previous generations for scientific

    computations, 3D transformations, and other mathematical-

    intensive functions. The inclusion of a new, fast divide technique

    called radix 16 speeds division in both floating-point and integer

    operations. (A radix 4 algorithm computes 2 bits of quotient

    in every iteration. Increasing to a radix 16 algorithm allows for

    computing 4 bits in every iteration for a 2X reduction in latency
    .)



    All of these improvements will make OpenGL operations increase without Apple having to make any improvements other than leveraging the radix 16 algorithm.



    The vector engine improvements will remind people of another 128 bit Vector Engine. Perhaps this time we'll see it more completely utilized?



    With Intel steam-rolling along it's clear that Apple's lines will have more updates than what we traditionally expect.



    Whether this makes room for a change in the product matrix is up in the air. Sales growth will dictate this option alongside market feedback.
  • Reply 131 of 155
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by mdriftmeyer View Post


    The gap between laptop sales and desktop is closing.



    From today's 8-K



    Desktop Sales total Units: 817,000

    Portables Sales total Units: 1,347,000



    That's not 1/3rd Desktop and 2/3rds Portable.



    Desktops: 37.75%

    Portables: 62.25%



    Q3 2007



    Desktop Sales total Units: 634,000

    Portables Sales total Units: 1,130,000



    Desktops: 35.94%

    Portables: 64.06%



    The change(deltas) for both desktop and laptop were 29% and 19%, respectfully.



    Will this trend continue with Leopard? Perhaps. If it does then Apple most likely will pay more attention to it's desktop market. However, not likely until Penryn and Nehalem chipsets are released for their systems.



    For as long as I remember, Apple's notebooks have outpaced their desktops, in growth and numbers, just about every quarter. I think I usually remember notebook growth often being two to three times that of desktop growth. Someone suggested that this bump was due to a new iMac model, which makes sense, it's the only variable in the desktop line that changed much this quarter. Someone else rejected that notion, though I don't understand why, I need to find that post.
  • Reply 132 of 155
    jowie74jowie74 Posts: 540member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    How can it be hidden if you go to the counter, and the sales receipt says = Sales tax? VAT is hidden, because mostly (though I've sometimes seen +VAT in some ads.) all you know is the total.



    But conversely, you have to pay the tax (unless you are in the minority and are VAT registered), so the price you see on the tag is the price you pay. You can go to the counter for a £14.99 product with £15 in your hands and will know you have enough money. We can work out exact change before we get to the counter.



    Quote:

    I would have to believe that there are costs to Apple involved (shipping, distribution), and that the higher price is also due to the VAT, and possibly some import duties, or taxes.



    If you take a look at my original comment in this thread, I have already ruled out VAT - both sides of the Atlantic, ex VAT, make for a $19 markup to the UK.



    Quote:

    Even here in the States, we sometimes see higher costs on one side of the country due to shipping.



    But that's just shipping costs - Apple doesn't change its base price at all. If there were a higher shipping cost then I'd understand, but we have to pay for that separately on top when buying online. Apple Europe is based in Ireland, and Dublin is closer to London (where I am) than Cupertino is to Los Angeles.
  • Reply 133 of 155
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by jowie74 View Post


    But conversely, you have to pay the tax (unless you are in the minority and are VAT registered), so the price you see on the tag is the price you pay. You can go to the counter for a £14.99 product with £15 in your hands and will know you have enough money. We can work out exact change before we get to the counter.



    That's true, but you don't know how much is going to the government.



    But, we have states with NO sales tax at all. You also know how much you're going to pay before you pull your money out. The difference there is that the government gets none of it.



    Quote:

    If you take a look at my original comment in this thread, I have already ruled out VAT - both sides of the Atlantic, ex VAT, make for a $19 markup to the UK.



    And if you look at my comments in response, I said that there were other costs for Apple, one of which is shipping, others which may include duties, etc.



    Quote:

    But that's just shipping costs - Apple doesn't change its base price at all. If there were a higher shipping cost then I'd understand, but we have to pay for that separately on top when buying online. Apple Europe is based in Ireland, and Dublin is closer to London (where I am) than Cupertino is to Los Angeles.



    That's not what I mean. Shipping costs to the EU, over and above the costs to the US. It's a straight line from China and other Asian manufacturers to us. But, it's much further to the EU. Those costs are subhumed into the price of the product.



    The list price of a product in California may be 5% less than the list price in New York because of cross country shipping costs. Some manufacturers average out the price, charging everyone 3% more. But others will charge the extra 5% where the shipping costs actually add in. We just see the list price, as it isn't broken out.



    THEN, there are local shipping costs to contend with, as you understand.
  • Reply 134 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by secretvampire View Post


    You've only taken into account one area of my statement though, the engineering. It still costs a CRAPLOAD of money to introduce a new product line worldwide.



    Not if development costs are relatively low, which they would be. Sure, it costs money to introduce a new product line, but if they kept development costs down (which they could easily do), they'd have no problem covering those costs. A comparable product would be the ipod classic. They did minimal development for it, and minimal advertising - it's intended to fill a specific consumer demand. Have you seen a single TV ad for the classic? It wouldn't be a product like the iPhone that needs to take the world by storm, it's just another option for people who are interested in a mac.



    I don't expect apple to have machines that are the same price as a Dell, but even if you take a dell and pad it with the standard apple 30+% profit, it would be half the price of a mac pro. Sure, it would sell better if it were more competitive with PC's, but the same is true of all macs, including iMacs and laptops.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by secretvampire View Post


    But they already have a very successful entry in the desktop market! The iMac! Some refuse to accept the iMac is a desktop machine but nevertheless, it's true! It makes much more sense to me to just continue to improve this market-proven product. I am just trying to look at this from a business-driven perspective, not what I personally want.



    Sure, they have a model that is selling. It's a good machine if that's what you want. But it's a machine with some big limitations, there are people who want a machine in that price range who would never buy a computer with screen attached, regardless of how good it is.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by physguy View Post


    Actually, while a popular thing to say, there very little evidence of this in recent times. Apple's execution in product development and the positive reception of almost all of their products shows a very detailed attention to market input. There are, of course, less than stellar results at times, like the HiFi but one of the best examples is the replacement of the mini iPod with the Nano which the mini was at the height of its popularity. This was a very astute marketing decision.



    The iPhone, itself, shows this. Despite massive negative positioning by the various pundits, the iPhone has been an amazing success. It is defining a new market area (niche if you prefer) for mobiles, that may be more than a niche.



    The iPhone is a good example of ignoring consumer demands. It doesn't include IM, custom ringtones, etc. Same with the touch, which doesn't do email or even notes, neither of which is a hardware limitation. Movie rentals on iTunes. Apple definitely has a product strategy, but there are unquestionably situations where it doesn't include giving customers what they want.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by peve View Post


    it isn't.

    but a lot of people like to say "mine is bigger".

    the mac mini and imac is made for the average user.



    The iMac and mini aren't underpowered (although the current version of the mini is a poor value), that's not what people are complaining about. The problem is that neither has any expansion. With the mini you're paying $599 or more and the biggest hard drive you can get is 160. I'd be happy if they just replaced the mini with a unit that used a 3.5 inch hard drive, open drive slot, open pci slot, a couple more RAM slots and video card slot (used or not). They could easily do that at the same price points as the current mini (if not cheaper) with the money they saved from not having to use laptop parts.
  • Reply 135 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    Firstly, I would suggest that you get your facts straight. Apple's lowest expandable lists at $2200.



    Secondly, just what would you do if Apple did come out with a desktop as you so described? What would you add? What would it finally cost?What would be the difference of your newly configured desktop and a Mac Mini? And would you expect that Apply fully honor its warranty with everything that you have done to it?



    First, Apple lists the mac pro as starting at $2499. To get to 2200 you have to customize it and strip it down. And 2200 is still exorbitant for the cheapest expandable machine.



    Second, I'd add more ram and whatever big internal hard drives would fit in it. And it would allow the option of swapping in a HD optical drive (cheaply and easily) in the future. It would cost more than a mini (but less than adding firewire versions of those same drives to a mini, but with better performance) but probably half as much as the base Pro. And apple would absolutely honor their warranty, they're required to by law. You can expand a mac pro, why would they honor their warranty on that but not on a midtower?
  • Reply 136 of 155
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    Not if development costs are relatively low, which they would be. Sure, it costs money to introduce a new product line, but if they kept development costs down (which they could easily do), they'd have no problem covering those costs. A comparable product would be the ipod classic. They did minimal development for it, and minimal advertising - it's intended to fill a specific consumer demand. Have you seen a single TV ad for the classic? It wouldn't be a product like the iPhone that needs to take the world by storm, it's just another option for people who are interested in a mac.



    I don't expect apple to have machines that are the same price as a Dell, but even if you take a dell and pad it with the standard apple 30+% profit, it would be half the price of a mac pro. Sure, it would sell better if it were more competitive with PC's, but the same is true of all macs, including iMacs and laptops.



    If you take a comparable Dell, then the price is also comparable. If you take a cheap Dell, then it isn't. Compare like to like. It's already been done on various sites some time ago.



    You can say that Apple doesn't compete with the cheaper machines, which is true, but you shouldn't be comparing them that way.



    Quote:

    The iPhone is a good example of ignoring consumer demands. It doesn't include IM, custom ringtones, etc. Same with the touch, which doesn't do email or even notes, neither of which is a hardware limitation. Movie rentals on iTunes. Apple definitely has a product strategy, but there are unquestionably situations where it doesn't include giving customers what they want.



    One can determine what customers want by the sales of the product. No product has what customers want if we use your concept of having what every customer would want in one product. It just doesn't happen that way.



    Apple's product has much better features than the ones you mentioned for a large number of people. even though it doesn't yet have what I want, I can see that.
  • Reply 137 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by extremeskater View Post




    Apples hardware profit margins are huge, how many actually upgrade with Apple ram, not many.



    Now if you took an HP notebook configured it exactly to the same specs as a 17" Macbook Pro it comes out about 1000.00 less. Sure you can debate quality but for 1000.00 there are going to be a ton or people willing to take that chance and buy a 3 year service contract something they already do with a Macbook Pro.



    So yeah it is my opinion that hardware sales would drop sharply. I believe Steve Jobs believes that also, what other reason would Apple have not allowing their OS to be open to any system, logic points to hardware profits.



    Ok, I've been quiet long enough,



    Please tell me where you are finding this HP that has the exact same specs as a 17" MacBook Pro for $1,000 less? Because I'll tell you, I just spent an hour at HP's website and I just can't find it. Not to metion I work for a computer store that sells both HP and Apple equipment. I know we sell a lot of HPs that are $1000 less than a MacBook Pro, but they are no where NEAR the same specs. Most of them don't run a processor more than 1.8 GHz with 2 MB Cache, (nothing like the 2.4 GHz with 4 MB cache that the MBP has, video cards in those HPs are generally laughable. And most of them rarely come with more than 1 GB RAM. The beauty of the 17" MBP is that you can usually order one without having to add anything to it. I feel these machines are seriously configured nearly perfectly.





    On other comments that have been made: everyone clammering for a desktop Mac, sure, I have no doubt that there are people out there that will buy it, but how many really? They had desktop models for years and they didn't sell any better than anything else, the iMac outsold it and the PowerBooks outsold it. Would I get one....hard to say, I've got a Mac Pro because I do things that use that power, but I also am not concerned that I won't get 7-8 years out of this thing before it is no longer viable. I'd have replaced a PC desktop at least twice in that time.



    And for Apple to release one they will need to design a whole new board, because they cannot simply adapt something they already have. They'd also need to have enough people out there developing components for the Mac to allow for expandability, and really, what are you going to expand on this thing? Add hard disks perhaps? maybe upgrade video cards (if you can find one that is compatible) history has shown that there really aren't ever any video card upgrades available, for years with the G4 desktops I have only seen one viable video card upgrade and they wanted $700 for it and it was based on a GPU that was pretty long in the tooth. Other than those parts what are you expanding on that computer.



    Don't fool yourself into thinking PC desktops are all that expandable anymore either, I just opened a brand new HP desktop yesterday to add a customer's old hard disk to it. To my horror I opened the case and found absolutely NO IDE channels. The hard disk and Optical drive was SATA, and there was NO IDE ports on the board, so I thought, "OK, I'll add an IDE card and install it, well guess what, there was only 1 PCI slot and it had a modem in it. I did laugh however when I noticed there is a Floppy drive port on the board and it was still using PS/2 ports. The Video card was an integrated Intel 950. There was a PCI-Express slot, but with the 250 W power supply you aren't adding much of a video card without also upgrading the Power supply. It had 4 USB 2.0 ports and a Firewire port, so basically, it was a Mac mini (exept with a much slower processor, and no wireless) I thought to myself, "this must be a $400 computer" so I looked at the sticker on the box. $749.99 I called the customer to let them know that I can't plug their old hard disk into the new computer because there was no way to plug it in, I guess he can put the drive into a drive bay and plug it into the USB port. My point is this computer is no more expandable than a Mac mini, but it has a Desktop form factor and costs more.
  • Reply 138 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    If you take a comparable Dell, then the price is also comparable. If you take a cheap Dell, then it isn't. Compare like to like. It's already been done on various sites some time ago.



    You can say that Apple doesn't compete with the cheaper machines, which is true, but you shouldn't be comparing them that way.



    There are plenty of machines with better specs than a mini for less. I am comparing like to like. Honestly, I think a major reason apple only sells the mini and iMac in those price ranges is to confuse customers and try and discourage direct comparisons to PC's in those price range.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    One can determine what customers want by the sales of the product. No product has what customers want if we use your concept of having what every customer would want in one product. It just doesn't happen that way.



    You can only determine customer's overall reaction to the product. It doesn't mean that there aren't things that people are unhappy with, and that could potentially help the product sell even more.
  • Reply 139 of 155
    boogabooga Posts: 1,073member
    MacCentral has some great charts in their quarterly report write-up:







    It looks like while laptops are far and away selling better than ever, on a yearly basis desktops haven't done much since the original iMac debut. Yes, laptops are very popular, but Apple really needs to examine why they lag the industry in % desktops sold and why many who want a mid-range desktop they can use with high-end graphics cards and their existing monitors need to go to Dell instead.
  • Reply 140 of 155
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 30,645member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    There are plenty of machines with better specs than a mini for less. I am comparing like to like. Honestly, I think a major reason apple only sells the mini and iMac in those price ranges is to confuse customers and try and discourage direct comparisons to PC's in those price range.



    So you give up on your argument about the Mac Pro? You must have, since you switched to the Mini and iMac which wasn't the discussion you started in that paragraph, and I responded to.



    The Mini and iMac are very different machines. As the above poster has explained, just because a PC seems to be upgradable doesnt mean it is. Dell, for some reason, sends me catalogs on an almost weekly basis, though I've never bought anything from them. I can tell you that even $1,000 machines have built-in graphics. he machines are also very cheaply built. If that's what you would want, then that's fine. But they certainly aren't a better bargin. And their cheap machines are truly junk.



    Quote:

    You can only determine customer's overall reaction to the product. It doesn't mean that there aren't things that people are unhappy with, and that could potentially help the product sell even more.



    No. You can judge sales. That's the only thing that matters. That and the industry leading satisfaction rate, which far exceeds that of any other phone maker.
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