Steve Jobs talks future Mac OS X upgrades, Mac sales, and more

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  • Reply 141 of 155
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    There are plenty of machines with better specs than a mini for less. I am comparing like to like.



    I suspect not completely like-for-like. If you take away the size constraint, I imagine that's true, but I have not seen a mini-like computer that's cheaper than a mini.



    Quote:

    Honestly, I think a major reason apple only sells the mini and iMac in those price ranges is to confuse customers and try and discourage direct comparisons to PC's in those price range.



    That's the tough part. Apple doesn't seem to like having more than one Mac model at any given price point, even separating their price ranges by a fair amount unless you order extra options. The funny thing is that they are doing just that with their iPods.
  • Reply 142 of 155
    gongon Posts: 2,437member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by roehlstation View Post


    I just opened a brand new HP desktop yesterday to add a customer's old hard disk to it. To my horror I opened the case and found absolutely NO IDE channels. The hard disk and Optical drive was SATA, and there was NO IDE ports on the board, so I thought, "OK, I'll add an IDE card and install it, well guess what, there was only 1 PCI slot and it had a modem in it. I did laugh however when I noticed there is a Floppy drive port on the board and it was still using PS/2 ports. The Video card was an integrated Intel 950. There was a PCI-Express slot, but with the 250 W power supply you aren't adding much of a video card without also upgrading the Power supply. It had 4 USB 2.0 ports and a Firewire port, so basically, it was a Mac mini (exept with a much slower processor, and no wireless) I thought to myself, "this must be a $400 computer" so I looked at the sticker on the box. $749.99 I called the customer to let them know that I can't plug their old hard disk into the new computer because there was no way to plug it in, I guess he can put the drive into a drive bay and plug it into the USB port. My point is this computer is no more expandable than a Mac mini, but it has a Desktop form factor and costs more.



    Obviously that desktop isn't a great deal, but being equivalent in upgradability to a mini? You can upgrade the optical drive to a next-gen drive, the 3.5" HD bay accommodate faster hard drives that are four times the size (and there probably was more than one bay). The case can likely be opened with a normal screwdriver without fear, many cases without tools at all. $70 for a power supply and $130 for a graphics card will make that machine run graphics faster than any Mac besides a Mac Pro.



    Also, you didn't think of using one of these or informing the customer they can get one:

    http://www.cooldrives.com/serial-ata...e-adapter.html



    If you can't take a honest look at the technology, both the good and the bad, it'd be better if you avoided the PC customers. They might be better served by someone else.



    When Apple pulls old ports out of new machine designs, they are heroes for advancing the market, but when PC makers pull IDE, that's bad...?
  • Reply 143 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    Obviously that desktop isn't a great deal, but being equivalent in upgradability to a mini? You can upgrade the optical drive to a next-gen drive, the 3.5" HD bay accommodate faster hard drives that are four times the size (and there probably was more than one bay). The case can likely be opened with a normal screwdriver without fear, many cases without tools at all. $70 for a power supply and $130 for a graphics card will make that machine run graphics faster than any Mac besides a Mac Pro.



    Yes, yes, you can, but my point is this is by no means the first time I've seen this in various PCs, Yes it was wrong to compare it to the Mac mini as far as upgradability, but the specs on the Mac mini were better at that price point than what this machine was, and it truly is a crippled machine put in a case that makes it look upgradable. Almost any HP we sell now we have to add things like upgraded PSUs just to add a video card, and in many instances could not add the drives the customer wants because the boards don't accomodate them. Lacking in IDE or in one case having only 2 SATA ports on the board. And when you look at the computer from the outside you think "I'll be able to upgrade this system in the future", but when it has 4 PCI card slots on the case and only 1 on the board, that is just poor design. And frankly a poor representation of what you really are getting. And they don't usually tell you on the specs what is there for future expansion. This is why I do more custom builds for customers than customize off the shelf systems.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    Also, you didn't think of using one of these or informing the customer they can get one:

    http://www.cooldrives.com/serial-ata...e-adapter.html



    It was my second thought after seeing the only PCI slot was full of a modem.....a freaking modem. Gotta have them in stock before I can use them. Are you also aware of how flaky they are? We don't have them in stock because half the stock replaced the other half that had been returned because they didn't work right.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    If you can't take a honest look at the technology, both the good and the bad, it'd be better if you avoided the PC customers. They might be better served by someone else.



    I can take an honest look at technology, after working on that HP last night I question whether or not they can. I am MORE than qualified to work on PCs, my point is, I'm seeing the PC market cut corners like crazy. and on things that don't make sense. Why take out the IDE, put no USB headers on the board but still include a freaking Floppy port? And the 200 W Power supplies are simply rediculous. They definately aren't following user trends. They have definately gone to building disposable computers. I don't disagree at all that I wouldn't be excited if Apple were to add a prosumer desktop I would be, but after seeing Apple outsell expectations by 200,000 units in the last quarter and pick up marketshare where others are losing the question is, do they really need to add another model? They already have more models than they ever have since Steve came back, he gut the model lines when he got back, when Sculley was running the show they suffered from having too many models, Anyone remember the Performas? It was confusing to look at especially when the numbers made no sense the 7400 was more powerful than the 7500 and really what difference was there between the Power Mac 6500 and the Perfoma 6500? So what if they are selling more notebooks now than desktops? The desktop/laptop line gets blurred everyday. When Apple pushes out specs in notebooks that put most consumer PC desktops to shame why wouldn't I get the notebook, especially when expandability isn't formost on my mind. Am I surprised, after seeing the price point of the Mac Pro that notebooks are outselling them, no, It is too expensive for the "average user" (although they cost the same as a mid range G4 Tower at the time they were new). but really a great deal for the Pro Users. They are very competative in that market. And so far the only machines I've seen run Windows better than these computers are ones I have custom built.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Gon View Post


    When Apple pulls old ports out of new machine designs, they are heroes for advancing the market, but when PC makers pull IDE, that's bad...?



    No, Apple pulls them when they truly aren't necessary or are setting a trend, not just to save money.
  • Reply 144 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    The honor goes to Karl Benz. And he was from Germany, just in case you didn't recognize the name.



    Okay, whatever. Same argument. What side of the road do the Germans drive on? My point as that the "full-stop"/"Period" argument was (how shall I say it?) POINTless. Bwahahahahaha. Pun very intended.



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Booga View Post


    MacCentral has some great charts in their quarterly report write-up:







    Amazing graph. The question we should all be asking is WTF happened to desktop sales in 2001? I have a hypothesis. Pre 2001, Apple sold desktop machines (non-iMacs) for as low as $1599... reasonable for a PowerMac. In 2001, they started jacking up the prices. They debuted the Quicksilver, lowest model @ $1699; followed by MDD, again at $1699; followed by PowerMac G5, starting at $1999; followed by a string of G5 upgrades starting at $1999; followed by the Mac Pro, starting at $2199; followed by the Mac Pro starting at $2499.



    Between major releases price cuts did bring costs down, but for short amounts of time only. It's clear, however, that Apple has been slowly pulling the PowerMac / Mac Pro away from mid-range users. If you look again at the graph, you see an increase in portable sales every year (except '99). You SHOULD see the same in Desktop sales. Yes, I know that things are shifting towards portables, I'm not stupid, but it's not shifting this quickly. In the PC market, people have access to as many cheapo laptops as they do cheapo desktops. Their numbers quote 50/50. 95% of the population doesn't lie. Apple's product line is dysfunctional.



    -Clive
  • Reply 145 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    First, Apple lists the mac pro as starting at $2499. To get to 2200 you have to customize it and strip it down.



    Lowest price is still $300 lower than you stated. And isn't that exactly what you want Apple to do?



    Quote:
    Originally Posted by minderbinder View Post


    Second, I'd add more ram and whatever big internal hard drives would fit in it. And it would allow the option of swapping in a HD optical drive (cheaply and easily) in the future. It would cost more than a mini (but less than adding firewire versions of those same drives to a mini, but with better performance) but probably half as much as the base Pro. And apple would absolutely honor their warranty, they're required to by law. You can expand a mac pro, why would they honor their warranty on that but not on a midtower?



    So give me the cost breakdown. By the way, what processor are you suggesting? And at the end of the day, could you speculate on its benchmark scores, you speculate on everything else.



    As for the warranty, I expect Apple to fully honor their contractual obligations. However, as under law, they have the right to refuse such if it can be deemed that a non-Apple certified product or service person may have caused damage and thus nullified the warranty. For example, it has been shown that some low-cost RAM can cause excessive heat?bye, bye warranty.
  • Reply 146 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Clive At Five View Post


    Okay, whatever. Same argument. What side of the road do the Germans drive on? My point as that the "full-stop"/"Period" argument was (how shall I say it?) POINTless. Bwahahahahaha. Pun very intended.



    And which side does nearly a quarter of the world drive on?



    And in the US as well: There is a rather dramatic segment of Interstate 5 where one drives on the left. It is on the Five Mile Grade coming into the Los Angeles area from the north. Because there are four lanes going in each direction, the separation is several miles long, and the two roadways are on opposite sides of a canyon, the effect is quite impressive.



    In Providence, Rhode Island, the off-ramp from Interstate 95 north to exit 18 (Thurbers Avenue) spilts and if you bear to the left, you're driving on the left for about 500 feet. At the end of left side driving, there is a light for crossing.



    My point. You are an idiot.
  • Reply 147 of 155
    ogeeogee Posts: 3member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Abster2core View Post


    The honor goes to Karl Benz. And he was from Germany, just in case you didn't recognize the name.





    Try again:

    Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot 1769 STEAM / Built the first self propelled road vehicle. French

    Robert Anderson Circa 1832-1839 ELECTRIC / Electric carriage. Scottish.

    Karl Friedrich Benz 1885/6 GASOLINE / First true automobile. German



    http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html
  • Reply 148 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ogee View Post


    Try again:

    Nicolas-Joseph Cugnot 1769 STEAM / Built the first self propelled road vehicle. French

    Robert Anderson Circa 1832-1839 ELECTRIC / Electric carriage. Scottish.

    Karl Friedrich Benz 1885/6 GASOLINE / First true automobile. German



    http://www.loc.gov/rr/scitech/mysteries/auto.html



    Henry Ford, American: First mass production of automobiles
  • Reply 149 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by intruth View Post


    So by my very rough calculations, by early 2010 I'll have shelled out 387 bucks to keep up to date with my Apple OS, compared to 250 to stay "current" with Vista.



    Of course, being "current" in Vista terms means that in 2010 you are still stuck with the archaic product they have now. (BTW- it would actully be 500 to 387 bucks as by 2010 you would have upgraded to the next 250 dollar Windows 7)
  • Reply 150 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JakeTheRock View Post


    I for one would actually like to see what wold come out if Apple pulled a Microsoft and spent 7 years on their next upgrade. Not the waiting, but the end result.



    Rapidly releasing incremental upgrades of functionality lets Apple incorporate market requirements more quickly, and change direction as their customers' needs change. They can also incorporate new technologies and features faster. If they suddenly started taking most of a decade to issue a major release, they would completely lose contact with their customers. When they finally did ship the software, it would be the solution to problems users stopped caring about five years earlier.



    In such a scenario, they'd be basing their decisions on outdated customer feedback and expensive-yet-useless focus groups and other marketing flimflammery. In other words, they'd be M$: the proud owners of a bloated dinosaur.



    Keep up the speedy releases, Apple. Don't give yourselves time to start "thinking the same."
  • Reply 151 of 155
    I'm a pro use of Apple computers, and just got the MacBook Pro to run Logic and AfterEffects while I am on tour. So far it's just as speedy and stabile as my dual 2gig G5 tower (which granted has grown a bit long in the tooth!)



    A friend of mine who is a professional mastering engineer and electronic composer bought the latest iMac upgraded to it's fastest configuration and he said Logic Pro runs amazingly fast on it. Not sure if you could edit a feature film, but if you are on that level chances are you have a budget to afford a work station.



    I'm so surprised by people complaining about the new Macs. There certainly seems to be something for everyone in the line!
  • Reply 152 of 155
    shadowshadow Posts: 373member
    The reason Apple does hardware is not because they want to be a hardware company/ don't want to be a software only company. They look at the hardware and software as a complete package and want to have full control on either side.



    Look at the WinTel picture: if you are a hardware vendor and have a bright new design idea you have to wait for MS to provide support for it. It will take long time (if ever) and you will lose your competitive advantage. You may try to hack the system with your own drivers but other driver/software or OS update may break it. You introduce a new processor architecture but no Win support -> no way to go mainstream. It is true the other way around: You want to get rid of the floppy drive and/or get USB support - hundreds of vendors resist or take the "wait and see" approach. It is catch 22 situation.
  • Reply 153 of 155
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by shadow View Post


    The reason Apple does hardware is not because they want to be a hardware company/ don't want to be a software only company. They look at the hardware and software as a complete package and want to have full control on either side.



    Look at the WinTel picture: if you are a hardware vendor and have a bright new design idea you have to wait for MS to provide support for it. It will take long time (if ever) and you will lose your competitive advantage. You may try to hack the system with your own drivers but other driver/software or OS update may break it. You introduce a new processor architecture but no Win support -> no way to go mainstream. It is true the other way around: You want to get rid of the floppy drive and/or get USB support - hundreds of vendors resist or take the "wait and see" approach. It is catch 22 situation.



    The examples you give are of very rare occasions.



    There's almost no way that a new processor architecture will be developed and get major acceptance. Windows did support MIPS, ARM, PPC and Alpha but it still doesn't matter.



    I can't think any piece of hardware or circuitry currently in a Mac that isn't being used or doesn't have an equivalent in the Windows world. Your examples are about ten years old now - which shows that it doesn't happen often enough to be a worthwhile argument. The only example of new hardware technology is actually software - EFI firmware. Since almost no one touches the firmware, its influence on the typical user is practically nil.



    I think the real reason is the money. It's the hardware that it's biggest cash cow. A software-only Apple
  • Reply 154 of 155
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by onlooker View Post


    That's exactly what Apple and Steve Jobs does not seem to understand. They are living in an AIO delusion.



    That "delusion" has just allowed their market cap to surpass IBM's.



    Apple's sales trends are overall higher than the industry average. Their laptop sales trends are through the roof.
  • Reply 155 of 155
    mr. hmr. h Posts: 4,720member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by chris v View Post


    That "delusion" has just allowed their market cap to surpass IBM's.



    Apple's sales trends are overall higher than the industry average. Their laptop sales trends are through the roof.



    Exactly - their laptop sales are through the roof. The "AIO delusion" is referring to the desktop situation, which isn't quite so rosey. They did well last quarter with the brand-new iMac, but it remains to be seen if that will be sustained. Looking back over a longer period, their desktop lineup has failed to deliver to the same extent that the laptop lineup has.



    It'll be interesting to see how Gateway's and Dell's new AIO iMac-a-likes do. Does the market as a whole want this form-factor or will the Gateway and Dell machines crash and burn?
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