Wasnt it the HD-DVDers that were saying aint it cool was full of BS?
either way, it is NOT ONLY Sony remember, WHY do we have to keep reminding these "morans"? ALL the companies will get behind BD, more players AND recorders will be made, more lazers will be required etc. production costs will come down, prices will get lower with competition from ALL manufacturers. However all the companies making BD will see more profit in a $200 player, so will be more inclined to make one of those as opposed to 10 SD players with peanuts profit on each.
Pretty soon all you will be able to buy are BD players, they will also play SD, but the penetration of BD capable players will help increase awareness of and then acceptance of the BD standard.
I'm all for downloads in the long term or even just for renting movies I dont want to buy, but the crys of "Yea HD-DVD is dead I'm switching to Downloads" seems to be going down another early adopter failure route, without adding in all the facts.
It would seem that Apple is the way to go (already proven big success with something called iTunes and the iPod) however I wonder at all the disparate companies pushing their hardware with their file format tied to their selection of content. Download has so much potential but it just a fledgling at the moment.
BD on the other hand has a huge POTENTIAL user base (Don't start on semantics) and if as I suggest above, ALL manufacturers switch to BD capable players in the next year or so, then the POTENTIAL install base will just explode.
Compare this to IMO the best option for going the download route, buying an Apple TV, whats the sales looking like for that? who else makes an Apple TV capable machine?
Just a small concern from someone who loves their aTV
I really hope you're right. However no matter how much potential the user base is for BR DVD already owns the market. And like I said there are a lot of people out there who just aren't that keen on quality and care more about a dollar. That's what BR has to overcome.
By the way AICN was originally a HD DVD advocate as Harry bought one early on. They fought a war of words with The Digital Bits who was a BR advocate. Now we find out the Harry bought both. The Digital Bits Also says the same thing that I do about DVD being the next real challenge.
Download will not be the format of choice with HD for some time to come for reasons we've already covered.
I'd say lower the prices on their players as well. $ 199.00 seemed to be the sweet spot for HD DVD. That's only $ 100.00 lower for BR.
$150 lower, actually. BR has been raising their prices ever since the Warner announcement, and the cheapest player you can get now is $350, or $400 for a PS3 if you don't 'want to have to replace it in half a year; plus another $20 for a remote.
$150 lower, actually. BR has been raising their prices ever since the Warner announcement, and the cheapest player you can get now is $350, or $400 for a PS3 if you don't 'want to have to replace it in half a year; plus another $20 for a remote.
Well there you go. They're going in the wrong direction.
It's called greed and no competition. Except there is. It's called DVD.
Well there you go. They're going in the wrong direction.
It's called greed and no competition. Except there is. It's called DVD.
When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. It's not like Blu Ray has to take over in sales this year. They have a good 5 years or more of being #2 ahead of them just like DVD did. The sense that there is a battle for a format right now is ridiculous because like it or not DVD will diminish.
VHS still exists. People still use it. DVD will be the same way. It will take over what VHS's current status is now for inexpensive home media, and inexpensive personal video storage. The difference in quality will be the set back just like transferring VHS to DVD is right now. It never looks as good after being taken from analog to digital, and upscaling looks about the same.
Blu-ray is NOT ONLY Sony in the same way that Iraq was invaded by NOT ONLY America. I'm thinking Panasonic gets to be England. Who should be poor, forgotten Poland? LG?
I was about to rip on you for calling people morons and spelling it wrong. But since it's in quotes I'm guessing it's on purpose. Please let me in on the joke.
Is bringing iraq into it some variation on Godwins law?
When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. It's not like Blu Ray has to take over in sales this year. They have a good 5 years or more of being #2 ahead of them just like DVD did. The sense that there is a battle for a format right now is ridiculous because like it or not DVD will diminish.
VHS still exists. People still use it. DVD will be the same way. It will take over what VHS's current status is now for inexpensive home media, and inexpensive personal video storage. The difference in quality will be the set back just like transferring VHS to DVD is right now. It never looks as good after being taken from analog to digital, and upscaling looks about the same.
" When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. "
And what do you base this info on?
Also 10 years will take too long. Something else will come along in the meantime. They need to act aggressively now. Think more in terms of 5 years.
Is bringing iraq into it some variation on Godwins law?
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Quote:
Google is your friend
Oh please mighty forum god, forgive me for not spending enough time glued to a keyboard to be familiar with every funny picture on the internet.
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Panasonic have more patents in Blu-ray than Sony does.
No that's the reality. If you want BR to become the mainstream format everyone uses DVD is now the format BR has to beat.
DVD is a standard definition format with low capacity, Blu-ray is a high-definition format with high capacity.
Blu-ray doesn't have to beat DVD, it's a natural market progression and there is a huge need for such a format. At the moment those with HD video cameras cannot burn their films onto anything but proprietary tape, files larger than 7GB must be stored on hard drives, the whole world is buying into HD TV and Blu-rays are falling in price to already little more than DVD in the States.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Oh please mighty forum god, forgive me for not spending enough time glued to a keyboard to be familiar with every funny picture on the internet.
Godwins law is about bringing a fascist dictatorship of the last century into a net topic that is NOT about dictatorships, I mearly asked was this a variation, because it seemed as irrelevant.
as pointed out above Panasonic hold more patents on BD than Sony, so at best I think you need to start referring to it as Panasonic's format. Did you refer to HD-DVD as Toshibas proprietary format? because thats what it is/ was after all.
Glad you think I'm a mighty forum god.. but I thought the "morans" bit was well known, and as it seems it was not, I had covered that eventuality by placing the word in quotes, your reading skills did manage to pick up on that, so well done you! forum godhood might not be so far away for you after all.
" When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. "
And what do you base this info on?
Also 10 years will take too long. Something else will come along in the meantime. They need to act aggressively now. Think more in terms of 5 years.
I think you are forgetting (purposely or not) that BD is MORE than a movie format. I want it for movies YES, but equally for backups 4.7 or 9 BG will no longer do. Ironically the first thing I would use it for is to backup my SD movie collection to optical disc, twice, so I can free up some HDD space.
For that I need it in a new Mac please.
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
It actually took eight years, 1995 to 2003, for DVD to pass VHS in rentals their first week. Personal movie sales were not as prevalent back then. The rental market was where it was at. (and still is) Collecting Movies didn't really take off, other than porn, until DVD came about. BR stands to benefit from that IMO.
I think you are forgetting (purposely or not) that BD is MORE than a movie format. I want it for movies YES, but equally for backups 4.7 or 9 BG will no longer do. Ironically the first thing I would use it for is to backup my SD movie collection to optical disc, twice, so I can free up some HDD space.
For that I need it in a new Mac please.
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
Caution is what my stance is. It's just that I've seen a lot of sure things in my day that logic would dictate a winner. However it was the other things that I wasn't paying attention to that tipped the scales.
I'm just not so sure it's in the bag for BR. The predictions about BR that I've been reading here seem more based on wishful thinking than facts about what the market is doing.
It's way to early to assume it's a sure thing. And as they said on AICN there's a lot of work for Sony to do to promote this thing into the limelight.
And as an advocate of HD in home media ( and not downloading ) I hope it does succeed. But I have to be realistic. And I am listening to what average people out there are saying. And about your question about the timeline. There were alot of obvious differences in that situation. For one there was a much larger noticable difference between VHS and DVD. Tape at that point had been around 21 years. DVD has only been around barely 11 years. It was time for a change as people had just gotten used to abandoning their Cassette tapes for CD so why not do the same for video. There were alot of other factors. The DVD was a true success story that happened rapidly. That doesn't happen all the time. What Sony has to do now ( and I'm really getting tired of repeating this ) is convince the consumer it's worth it to switch to something that costs more and doesn't have the same number of titles that they can get in an acceptable format for less money. That's the way they look at it. Now just to clarify myself I'm for HD and think it just looks better. Enough to justify the cost. But I'm a videophile not the average Joe.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
Huh? Why is that? Don't publishers and electronics manufacturers still make a margin on their SD hardware and media? Yes of course they do, though probably not as large as with blu-ray. And just because you are ready for a 1080p world doesn't mean everyone else needs to be.
And I dont see why there is a discussion about Blu having to defeat DVD. Its ridiculous. As long as studios make money by offering both formats, why would they drop one? And as a blu-ray user, why do you care how long it takes for Blu to overcome DVD? You already took the plunge on a player, right? You're obviously not price sensitive, so paying $25 per movie on Amazon is not so bad, right? Aren't you getting the movies you want slowly but surely? Why do you give a crap if Joe Blow down the street is happy with his 1994 Aiwa dvd player that doesn't even have progressive scanning? Most consumers won't even know the difference between S-Video and HDMI 5 years from now.
If Sony / Panasonic want Blu adoption rates to take off, they need to lower the prices. But if they did that, wouldnt blu-ray be just like DVD? Why replace one low-margin business with another? It seems alot smarter to have 2 formats coexisting and allowing consumers to self select which market they want to be in... the standard DVD low price market, or the high end, high cost BD market. Sounds like price discrimination at its best.
I would imagine that Blu-Ray will at least be an option on the next rev of the Mac Pro.
Depending on prices, it may be standard.
It seems Apple will have to relent and code the necessary DRM deep into Mac OS X and they are apparently waiting on that to be done to introduce new displays (with DisplayPort?) as well.
I would think FW3200 will make it to the next rev also.
Panasonic have more patents in Blu-ray than Sony does.
It's never been an issue of counting patents numerically. The question is whether the patents contributed are technologically of major or minor import to the existence of the format.
DVD is a standard definition format with low capacity, Blu-ray is a high-definition format with high capacity.
Blu-ray doesn't have to beat DVD, it's a natural market progression and there is a huge need for such a format. At the moment those with HD video cameras cannot burn their films onto anything but proprietary tape, files larger than 7GB must be stored on hard drives, the whole world is buying into HD TV and Blu-rays are falling in price to already little more than DVD in the States.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
The higher capacity is only a requirement for the high definition picture and sound. And since most HDTV owners say DVD picture and sound is good enough for them, then they don't need the higher capacity.
The market will only naturally progress if consumers recognize and appreciate the improvements enough to pay extra for it. Either that, or retailers have to phase out everything on the store shelf so consumers don't really have a choice (i.e. HDTVs).
Don't you guys remember the time when new release movies on VHS were $99? Only after as much as 6 months to a year after the release date were $24.99 "budget" editions released?
I think $12.99 for a new release DVD or $25 for a new releas on HD is actually pretty good.
Just downloaded my first HD Rental via iTunes. I must say, very impressed. I was able to start watching it 2 minutes after clicking download, and never caught up. I have DSL (6 mbps), so no FIOS or anything fancy. The quality was very good (way better than DVD, better than HD on cable, and pretty close to some of the HD DVDs i've seen). I know I have been saying that downloads are here, and everyone wants to fight it, but they are here. Easy as pie to get going, fast, and very good quality.
I snagged a few screengrabs, if anyone is interested (I know, not the best scenes to grab, but i'm still getting used to the timing from the command to the grab):
Comments
Wasnt it the HD-DVDers that were saying aint it cool was full of BS?
either way, it is NOT ONLY Sony remember, WHY do we have to keep reminding these "morans"? ALL the companies will get behind BD, more players AND recorders will be made, more lazers will be required etc. production costs will come down, prices will get lower with competition from ALL manufacturers. However all the companies making BD will see more profit in a $200 player, so will be more inclined to make one of those as opposed to 10 SD players with peanuts profit on each.
Pretty soon all you will be able to buy are BD players, they will also play SD, but the penetration of BD capable players will help increase awareness of and then acceptance of the BD standard.
I'm all for downloads in the long term or even just for renting movies I dont want to buy, but the crys of "Yea HD-DVD is dead I'm switching to Downloads" seems to be going down another early adopter failure route, without adding in all the facts.
It would seem that Apple is the way to go (already proven big success with something called iTunes and the iPod) however I wonder at all the disparate companies pushing their hardware with their file format tied to their selection of content. Download has so much potential but it just a fledgling at the moment.
BD on the other hand has a huge POTENTIAL user base (Don't start on semantics) and if as I suggest above, ALL manufacturers switch to BD capable players in the next year or so, then the POTENTIAL install base will just explode.
Compare this to IMO the best option for going the download route, buying an Apple TV, whats the sales looking like for that? who else makes an Apple TV capable machine?
Just a small concern from someone who loves their aTV
I really hope you're right. However no matter how much potential the user base is for BR DVD already owns the market. And like I said there are a lot of people out there who just aren't that keen on quality and care more about a dollar. That's what BR has to overcome.
By the way AICN was originally a HD DVD advocate as Harry bought one early on. They fought a war of words with The Digital Bits who was a BR advocate. Now we find out the Harry bought both. The Digital Bits Also says the same thing that I do about DVD being the next real challenge.
Download will not be the format of choice with HD for some time to come for reasons we've already covered.
I'd say lower the prices on their players as well. $ 199.00 seemed to be the sweet spot for HD DVD. That's only $ 100.00 lower for BR.
$150 lower, actually. BR has been raising their prices ever since the Warner announcement, and the cheapest player you can get now is $350, or $400 for a PS3 if you don't 'want to have to replace it in half a year; plus another $20 for a remote.
$150 lower, actually. BR has been raising their prices ever since the Warner announcement, and the cheapest player you can get now is $350, or $400 for a PS3 if you don't 'want to have to replace it in half a year; plus another $20 for a remote.
Well there you go. They're going in the wrong direction.
It's called greed and no competition. Except there is. It's called DVD.
Well there you go. They're going in the wrong direction.
It's called greed and no competition. Except there is. It's called DVD.
When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. It's not like Blu Ray has to take over in sales this year. They have a good 5 years or more of being #2 ahead of them just like DVD did. The sense that there is a battle for a format right now is ridiculous because like it or not DVD will diminish.
VHS still exists. People still use it. DVD will be the same way. It will take over what VHS's current status is now for inexpensive home media, and inexpensive personal video storage. The difference in quality will be the set back just like transferring VHS to DVD is right now. It never looks as good after being taken from analog to digital, and upscaling looks about the same.
Blu-ray is NOT ONLY Sony in the same way that Iraq was invaded by NOT ONLY America. I'm thinking Panasonic gets to be England. Who should be poor, forgotten Poland? LG?
I was about to rip on you for calling people morons and spelling it wrong. But since it's in quotes I'm guessing it's on purpose. Please let me in on the joke.
Is bringing iraq into it some variation on Godwins law?
Google is your friend
When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. It's not like Blu Ray has to take over in sales this year. They have a good 5 years or more of being #2 ahead of them just like DVD did. The sense that there is a battle for a format right now is ridiculous because like it or not DVD will diminish.
VHS still exists. People still use it. DVD will be the same way. It will take over what VHS's current status is now for inexpensive home media, and inexpensive personal video storage. The difference in quality will be the set back just like transferring VHS to DVD is right now. It never looks as good after being taken from analog to digital, and upscaling looks about the same.
" When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. "
And what do you base this info on?
Also 10 years will take too long. Something else will come along in the meantime. They need to act aggressively now. Think more in terms of 5 years.
Is bringing iraq into it some variation on Godwins law?
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Google is your friend
Oh please mighty forum god, forgive me for not spending enough time glued to a keyboard to be familiar with every funny picture on the internet.
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Panasonic have more patents in Blu-ray than Sony does.
No that's the reality. If you want BR to become the mainstream format everyone uses DVD is now the format BR has to beat.
DVD is a standard definition format with low capacity, Blu-ray is a high-definition format with high capacity.
Blu-ray doesn't have to beat DVD, it's a natural market progression and there is a huge need for such a format. At the moment those with HD video cameras cannot burn their films onto anything but proprietary tape, files larger than 7GB must be stored on hard drives, the whole world is buying into HD TV and Blu-rays are falling in price to already little more than DVD in the States.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
No. It's simply a relevant analogy. Godwin's law is a BS statement for use against any analogy. The point is Blu-ray is Sony. Everyone else is along for the ride.
Oh please mighty forum god, forgive me for not spending enough time glued to a keyboard to be familiar with every funny picture on the internet.
Godwins law is about bringing a fascist dictatorship of the last century into a net topic that is NOT about dictatorships, I mearly asked was this a variation, because it seemed as irrelevant.
as pointed out above Panasonic hold more patents on BD than Sony, so at best I think you need to start referring to it as Panasonic's format. Did you refer to HD-DVD as Toshibas proprietary format? because thats what it is/ was after all.
Glad you think I'm a mighty forum god.. but I thought the "morans" bit was well known, and as it seems it was not, I had covered that eventuality by placing the word in quotes, your reading skills did manage to pick up on that, so well done you! forum godhood might not be so far away for you after all.
" When DVD came out the players costed thousands for the first few years, and Blu Ray is already slashed prices enough to win the market over a 10 year period. "
And what do you base this info on?
Also 10 years will take too long. Something else will come along in the meantime. They need to act aggressively now. Think more in terms of 5 years.
I think you are forgetting (purposely or not) that BD is MORE than a movie format. I want it for movies YES, but equally for backups 4.7 or 9 BG will no longer do. Ironically the first thing I would use it for is to backup my SD movie collection to optical disc, twice, so I can free up some HDD space.
For that I need it in a new Mac please.
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
.........................
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
It actually took eight years, 1995 to 2003, for DVD to pass VHS in rentals their first week. Personal movie sales were not as prevalent back then. The rental market was where it was at. (and still is) Collecting Movies didn't really take off, other than porn, until DVD came about. BR stands to benefit from that IMO.
I think you are forgetting (purposely or not) that BD is MORE than a movie format. I want it for movies YES, but equally for backups 4.7 or 9 BG will no longer do. Ironically the first thing I would use it for is to backup my SD movie collection to optical disc, twice, so I can free up some HDD space.
For that I need it in a new Mac please.
Were you on forums harping on about how VHS was the thing for DVD to beat? did that take 5 years? I seem to remember it was somewhere along that time-scale, so why could it not be similar for BD? unless you actively WANT it to NOT succeed? why be so pessimistic?
Caution is what my stance is. It's just that I've seen a lot of sure things in my day that logic would dictate a winner. However it was the other things that I wasn't paying attention to that tipped the scales.
I'm just not so sure it's in the bag for BR. The predictions about BR that I've been reading here seem more based on wishful thinking than facts about what the market is doing.
It's way to early to assume it's a sure thing. And as they said on AICN there's a lot of work for Sony to do to promote this thing into the limelight.
And as an advocate of HD in home media ( and not downloading ) I hope it does succeed. But I have to be realistic. And I am listening to what average people out there are saying. And about your question about the timeline. There were alot of obvious differences in that situation. For one there was a much larger noticable difference between VHS and DVD. Tape at that point had been around 21 years. DVD has only been around barely 11 years. It was time for a change as people had just gotten used to abandoning their Cassette tapes for CD so why not do the same for video. There were alot of other factors. The DVD was a true success story that happened rapidly. That doesn't happen all the time. What Sony has to do now ( and I'm really getting tired of repeating this ) is convince the consumer it's worth it to switch to something that costs more and doesn't have the same number of titles that they can get in an acceptable format for less money. That's the way they look at it. Now just to clarify myself I'm for HD and think it just looks better. Enough to justify the cost. But I'm a videophile not the average Joe.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
Huh? Why is that? Don't publishers and electronics manufacturers still make a margin on their SD hardware and media? Yes of course they do, though probably not as large as with blu-ray. And just because you are ready for a 1080p world doesn't mean everyone else needs to be.
And I dont see why there is a discussion about Blu having to defeat DVD. Its ridiculous. As long as studios make money by offering both formats, why would they drop one? And as a blu-ray user, why do you care how long it takes for Blu to overcome DVD? You already took the plunge on a player, right? You're obviously not price sensitive, so paying $25 per movie on Amazon is not so bad, right? Aren't you getting the movies you want slowly but surely? Why do you give a crap if Joe Blow down the street is happy with his 1994 Aiwa dvd player that doesn't even have progressive scanning? Most consumers won't even know the difference between S-Video and HDMI 5 years from now.
If Sony / Panasonic want Blu adoption rates to take off, they need to lower the prices. But if they did that, wouldnt blu-ray be just like DVD? Why replace one low-margin business with another? It seems alot smarter to have 2 formats coexisting and allowing consumers to self select which market they want to be in... the standard DVD low price market, or the high end, high cost BD market. Sounds like price discrimination at its best.
For that I need it in a new Mac please.
I would imagine that Blu-Ray will at least be an option on the next rev of the Mac Pro.
Depending on prices, it may be standard.
It seems Apple will have to relent and code the necessary DRM deep into Mac OS X and they are apparently waiting on that to be done to introduce new displays (with DisplayPort?) as well.
I would think FW3200 will make it to the next rev also.
Panasonic have more patents in Blu-ray than Sony does.
It's never been an issue of counting patents numerically. The question is whether the patents contributed are technologically of major or minor import to the existence of the format.
Blu-Ray is unquestionably a Sony-led format.
DVD is a standard definition format with low capacity, Blu-ray is a high-definition format with high capacity.
Blu-ray doesn't have to beat DVD, it's a natural market progression and there is a huge need for such a format. At the moment those with HD video cameras cannot burn their films onto anything but proprietary tape, files larger than 7GB must be stored on hard drives, the whole world is buying into HD TV and Blu-rays are falling in price to already little more than DVD in the States.
Sticking with DVD as anything but a secondary format simply isn't an option either for the consumers, publishers or electronics manufacturers.
The higher capacity is only a requirement for the high definition picture and sound. And since most HDTV owners say DVD picture and sound is good enough for them, then they don't need the higher capacity.
The market will only naturally progress if consumers recognize and appreciate the improvements enough to pay extra for it. Either that, or retailers have to phase out everything on the store shelf so consumers don't really have a choice (i.e. HDTVs).
I think $12.99 for a new release DVD or $25 for a new releas on HD is actually pretty good.
I snagged a few screengrabs, if anyone is interested (I know, not the best scenes to grab, but i'm still getting used to the timing from the command to the grab):
http://www.benmackin.com/stuff