Sure, the Nokia's screen is smaller, it's graphics API different and more primitive than OSX (who's isn't!!!) and it's CPU/GPU may not be as fast but that changes nothing about the code that takes html, css and javascript and converts it into a bitmap you see on your screen. It should be essentially the same as Safari, Mobile Safari, Konquror and others - there's apparently a Windows Mobile version in the works. That's the point in using a common rendering engine - it looks the same regardless of platform.
No it's not. Which is why any 5-year old can see the difference. Nokia would like you to think the two are equivalent. But just cause a wheelchair has rubber tires does not make it a car.
Yes, page layout is performed by Webkit, but the actual pixel-level rasterization is performed by the graphics API. And that's why the iPhone's browser looks miles better.
I wonder why Nokia does not showcase the browser on its website?
No it's not. Which is why any 5-year old can see the difference. Nokia would like you to think the two are equivalent. But just cause a wheelchair has rubber tires does not make it a car.
Yes, page layout is performed by Webkit, but the actual pixel-level rasterization is performed by the graphics API. And that's why the iPhone's browser looks miles better.
I wonder why Nokia does not showcase the browser on its website?
C.
It does.
See http://www.s60.com/browser as well as Nokia's open source project site. The s60 site has a Flash demo of the browser in action. As you can see, it renders pages as accurately as Safari does. It certainly not as pretty as an iPhone's higher resolution screen but it's just as accurate.
One other point of note: The n95 lets you zoom in and it reflows the text. A post in AI never required horizontal scrolling. I could boost the text to bigger than that, and it'd reflow it so I could read just by vertical scrolling.
IPhone still wins overall. But I do believe it's pretty close, regarding web browser. And there's another thing: to get a screenshot on the n95 I installed a single software app, ran it, and it gave me a global screenshot hotkey. To do so on the iPhone, it required jailbreaking the device, installing SSH, and using a command-line app.
Of course, if I'm making the comparison, I will point out that I couldn't get the n95 onto my (Airport Express) wifi network while it was a closed network. I couldn't find a screen to type a network name. I had to go and make the network an open one. So, while I'm assured the n95 can do that (according to the help), it was unintuitive enough that I couldn't figure out how.
Of course, if I'm making the comparison, I will point out that I couldn't get the n95 onto my (Airport Express) wifi network while it was a closed network. I couldn't find a screen to type a network name. I had to go and make the network an open one. So, while I'm assured the n95 can do that (according to the help), it was unintuitive enough that I couldn't figure out how.
No I didn't forget. It has nothing to do with how accurately the page is rendered, just how much of it you see at once.
To some, a smaller handset is also a positive thing in the same way people prefer iPod Nanos to big iPods. I'm not saying the N95 is a small phone though - it's a brick - but it is over a year old now.
I did say I was sorry.
Actually, I think Apple should increase the screen size of the iPhone. They can go to 3.8" 3:2 aspect ratio by decreasing the size of the side bezels to 0.1". Every little bit helps.
The iPhone does support free ringtones. Garageband has an export to ringtone function, which makes whatever audio you put into it a ringtone for the iPhone.
Regarding web browsing on iphone vs N95, there is no doubt that no other device (except maybe N810) comes close to the experience what you have to remember is that unless you are in a wifi zone the speeds are slow as hell so the no matter how good it is the whole experience is ruined by the time taken to load pages. How often are you guys in a wifi zone?
In the UK we have the cloud which offers around 7000 hotspots across the UK but its still not enough. If it were 3G or HSDPA that would be different but EDGE sucks.
Actually, I think Apple should increase the screen size of the iPhone. They can go to 3.8" 3:2 aspect ratio by decreasing the size of the side bezels to 0.1". Every little bit helps.
If they could, without making it more fragile, and by adding pixels not just making them bigger then by all means. I'd hate to see it get bigger physically though. It's already a little too big width x height for a pocketable device IMHO although they're kind of limited in what they can do if they've got a touchscreen qwerty keyboard to fit in there that's still typeable on with fat fingers.
It's already the best screen you can get in a phone of it's size, no question about it.
Regarding web browsing on iphone vs N95, there is no doubt that no other device (except maybe N810) comes close to the experience what you have to remember is that unless you are in a wifi zone the speeds are slow as hell so the no matter how good it is the whole experience is ruined by the time taken to load pages. How often are you guys in a wifi zone?
In the UK we have the cloud which offers around 7000 hotspots across the UK but its still not enough. If it were 3G or HSDPA that would be different but EDGE sucks.
Bav, we have already established that Edge on iPhone is as fast as 3G on N95. Because the processor on the iPhone is way faster.
It all comes down to usability. The other day I was driving, looking for a Dry Cleaners. I stopped at the lights, pressed MAP, typed Dry Cleaners, and BOOM! There were two pins, before the lights went green.
Try it on your N95. 3G or not. The unit I played with took three seconds to unlock.
In my typical use, the iPhone formula of Edge + Processor + Screen + Interface results in getting to the info faster than, tiddly screen, slow CPU, keypad and 3G. Your experience might be different.
The iPhone does support free ringtones. Garageband has an export to ringtone function, which makes whatever audio you put into it a ringtone for the iPhone.
Indeed it does but that's a far cry from what almost every other phone does, which is allow you to just bluetooth over an mp3 and select it as a ringtone. Having to learn to use Garageband first isn't exactly user friendly.
Thanks for the screenshots Amorya. Aegis - Having looked at them, you are right. There is absolutely no difference.
C.
Apart from the readability...
and the screen size...
and the navigation...
and the layout...
and the speed of rendering...
But what have the Romans ever done for us?
Well, readability and layout are fine. Speed of rendering is reasonable (as in, I haven't noticed too much of a difference to the iPhone).
Screen size is of course worse, but the issue I was comparing was the browser's rendering engine. Navigation is worse but not unusable (you have a little mouse pointer you move with the direction pad, and it snaps to links as it passes).
Indeed it does but that's a far cry from what almost every other phone does, which is allow you to just bluetooth over an mp3 and select it as a ringtone. Having to learn to use Garageband first isn't exactly user friendly.
Very true but if they can allow sms's to be sent to multiple recipients then surely a bluetooth profile can also be added via a firmware update. Infact I hope BT file transfer is also added in the near future as it really is a basic and very handy tool.
Bav, we have already established that Edge on iPhone is as fast as 3G on N95. Because the processor on the iPhone is way faster.
It's not. Both are ARM11 with an additional GPU. The N95 runs at 332Mhz and the iPhone at 412Mhz (apparently - it got boosted in a recent update).
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage
It all comes down to usability. The other day I was driving, looking for a Dry Cleaners. I stopped at the lights, pressed MAP, typed Dry Cleaners, and BOOM! There were two pins, before the lights went green.
How did it know where you were without GPS?
Quote:
Originally Posted by Carniphage
Try it on your N95. 3G or not. The unit I played with took three seconds to unlock.
In my typical use, the iPhone formula of Edge + Processor + Screen + Interface results in getting to the info faster than, tiddly screen, slow CPU, keypad and 3G. Your experience might be different.
Same here. I keep thinking that you guys are referring to GPRS when you're making those speed comparisons, since that's all I can get. I forget that EDGE is actually faster!
It's not. Both are ARM11 with an additional GPU. The N95 runs at 332Mhz and the iPhone at 412Mhz (apparently - it got boosted in a recent update).
The N95 seems to be 2 or 3 times slower doing the same thing. I suspect that the iPhone is offloading graphics rendering to a co-processor. I'm guessing that the Nokia is not. I prefer to judge these things from *outcomes* (how fast it is) and not *inputs*. (what processor it has)
If you look at the page layouts in the screenshots, you'll see that the paragraph after "Welcome to Apple Insider" is correctly rendered full-width on the iPhone. But on the Nokia is wrapped using only the first third of the screen. So despite having a smaller screen, it makes poor use of the limited real-estate. Webkit or not, the page looks like ass.
Acceptable, possibly. Identical, err, no not really.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
How did it know where you were without GPS?
The map search is centered on the last search. My previous search was the same city.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
Maps are OK on GPRS, as is Google search. Pages with lots of individual file references which are sluggish. Edge is faster. Wifi is faster still. But I am not interested in the "bit-rate". All I care about is how long does it take me to get to the fact.
The good news is that it doesn’t have to, aegisdesign. You simply type in what you’re looking for, perhaps with the name of your city, and then hit search – the results come right up. I’ve impressed several people (of the 29 that bought an iPhone after witnessing mine) with that and this is while using EDGE, not Wi-Fi. After bringing up what they’re looking for, I then show how they can press a single button and easily make it a bookmark, get directions to it, or turn it into a contact, among other options.
For the most part I keep the city in the map field and then just type in front of it for what I’m looking for. Over EDGE it’s faster than looking for a phone book then flipping through the pages. It’s also free, as compared to calling information.
Quote:
Originally Posted by aegisdesign
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
I understand aegisdesign and Amorya. Hopefully it comes to you sooner than later.
This drives the point home, however, that for those that keep talking about 3G iPhones being what Apple should have started out with, as what would have been a mistake. EDGE is far more dominant in the US than 3G – not everyone has EDGE, let alone 3G. It makes far more business sense to introduce a new cell phone with a large and solid infrastructure, using the fastest data speeds that the most people can get. Now that over a million people in the US have an iPhone they will likely introduce a 3G – even if there are less places that can make the most of the higher speed – as it otherwise shifts down to EDGE.
Apple might release the US 3G after June, if only because that would be a solid year from when the first one came out. That effectively gave AT&T a year to improve and expand their 3G network.
For most uses, the iPhone works great for accessing the net and doing whatever you wanted to do. Sure, there’s room for improvement but after twenty years even Windows isn’t perfect, hehe.
I understand aegisdesign and Amorya. Hopefully it comes to you sooner than later.
This drives the point home, however, that for those that keep talking about 3G iPhones being what Apple should have started out with, as what would have been a mistake. EDGE is far more dominant in the US than 3G ? not everyone has EDGE, let alone 3G.
Yeah, I understand why they did it for the US one.
The difference is, here 3G has 70% of the UK covered, and EDGE has 30%. That's why we're bitter. I'd be OK if O2 would improve their EDGE network, but there's no real incentive for them to do so. There will be a 3G iPhone next year (touch wood), so they're probably just waiting for that rather than increasing coverage of EDGE.
Comments
[sigh]
Simply not true. Webkit's WebCore framework is a "rendering engine" used by Nokia.
http://opensource.nokia.com/projects/S60browser/
Sure, the Nokia's screen is smaller, it's graphics API different and more primitive than OSX (who's isn't!!!) and it's CPU/GPU may not be as fast but that changes nothing about the code that takes html, css and javascript and converts it into a bitmap you see on your screen. It should be essentially the same as Safari, Mobile Safari, Konquror and others - there's apparently a Windows Mobile version in the works. That's the point in using a common rendering engine - it looks the same regardless of platform.
No it's not. Which is why any 5-year old can see the difference. Nokia would like you to think the two are equivalent. But just cause a wheelchair has rubber tires does not make it a car.
Yes, page layout is performed by Webkit, but the actual pixel-level rasterization is performed by the graphics API. And that's why the iPhone's browser looks miles better.
I wonder why Nokia does not showcase the browser on its website?
C.
No it's not. Which is why any 5-year old can see the difference. Nokia would like you to think the two are equivalent. But just cause a wheelchair has rubber tires does not make it a car.
Yes, page layout is performed by Webkit, but the actual pixel-level rasterization is performed by the graphics API. And that's why the iPhone's browser looks miles better.
I wonder why Nokia does not showcase the browser on its website?
C.
It does.
See http://www.s60.com/browser as well as Nokia's open source project site. The s60 site has a Flash demo of the browser in action. As you can see, it renders pages as accurately as Safari does. It certainly not as pretty as an iPhone's higher resolution screen but it's just as accurate.
One other point of note: The n95 lets you zoom in and it reflows the text. A post in AI never required horizontal scrolling. I could boost the text to bigger than that, and it'd reflow it so I could read just by vertical scrolling.
IPhone still wins overall. But I do believe it's pretty close, regarding web browser. And there's another thing: to get a screenshot on the n95 I installed a single software app, ran it, and it gave me a global screenshot hotkey. To do so on the iPhone, it required jailbreaking the device, installing SSH, and using a command-line app.
Amorya
Amorya
Of course, if I'm making the comparison, I will point out that I couldn't get the n95 onto my (Airport Express) wifi network while it was a closed network. I couldn't find a screen to type a network name. I had to go and make the network an open one. So, while I'm assured the n95 can do that (according to the help), it was unintuitive enough that I couldn't figure out how.
LOL. That's classic.
No I didn't forget. It has nothing to do with how accurately the page is rendered, just how much of it you see at once.
To some, a smaller handset is also a positive thing in the same way people prefer iPod Nanos to big iPods. I'm not saying the N95 is a small phone though - it's a brick - but it is over a year old now.
I did say I was sorry.
Actually, I think Apple should increase the screen size of the iPhone. They can go to 3.8" 3:2 aspect ratio by decreasing the size of the side bezels to 0.1". Every little bit helps.
The iPhone does support free ringtones. Garageband has an export to ringtone function, which makes whatever audio you put into it a ringtone for the iPhone.
In the UK we have the cloud which offers around 7000 hotspots across the UK but its still not enough. If it were 3G or HSDPA that would be different but EDGE sucks.
C.
Apart from the readability...
and the screen size...
and the navigation...
and the layout...
and the speed of rendering...
But what have the Romans ever done for us?
I did say I was sorry.
Actually, I think Apple should increase the screen size of the iPhone. They can go to 3.8" 3:2 aspect ratio by decreasing the size of the side bezels to 0.1". Every little bit helps.
If they could, without making it more fragile, and by adding pixels not just making them bigger then by all means. I'd hate to see it get bigger physically though. It's already a little too big width x height for a pocketable device IMHO although they're kind of limited in what they can do if they've got a touchscreen qwerty keyboard to fit in there that's still typeable on with fat fingers.
It's already the best screen you can get in a phone of it's size, no question about it.
Regarding web browsing on iphone vs N95, there is no doubt that no other device (except maybe N810) comes close to the experience what you have to remember is that unless you are in a wifi zone the speeds are slow as hell so the no matter how good it is the whole experience is ruined by the time taken to load pages. How often are you guys in a wifi zone?
In the UK we have the cloud which offers around 7000 hotspots across the UK but its still not enough. If it were 3G or HSDPA that would be different but EDGE sucks.
Bav, we have already established that Edge on iPhone is as fast as 3G on N95. Because the processor on the iPhone is way faster.
It all comes down to usability. The other day I was driving, looking for a Dry Cleaners. I stopped at the lights, pressed MAP, typed Dry Cleaners, and BOOM! There were two pins, before the lights went green.
Try it on your N95. 3G or not. The unit I played with took three seconds to unlock.
In my typical use, the iPhone formula of Edge + Processor + Screen + Interface results in getting to the info faster than, tiddly screen, slow CPU, keypad and 3G. Your experience might be different.
C.
Just a relevant point here:
The iPhone does support free ringtones. Garageband has an export to ringtone function, which makes whatever audio you put into it a ringtone for the iPhone.
Indeed it does but that's a far cry from what almost every other phone does, which is allow you to just bluetooth over an mp3 and select it as a ringtone. Having to learn to use Garageband first isn't exactly user friendly.
Thanks for the screenshots Amorya. Aegis - Having looked at them, you are right. There is absolutely no difference.
C.
Apart from the readability...
and the screen size...
and the navigation...
and the layout...
and the speed of rendering...
But what have the Romans ever done for us?
Well, readability and layout are fine. Speed of rendering is reasonable (as in, I haven't noticed too much of a difference to the iPhone).
Screen size is of course worse, but the issue I was comparing was the browser's rendering engine. Navigation is worse but not unusable (you have a little mouse pointer you move with the direction pad, and it snaps to links as it passes).
Indeed it does but that's a far cry from what almost every other phone does, which is allow you to just bluetooth over an mp3 and select it as a ringtone. Having to learn to use Garageband first isn't exactly user friendly.
Very true but if they can allow sms's to be sent to multiple recipients then surely a bluetooth profile can also be added via a firmware update. Infact I hope BT file transfer is also added in the near future as it really is a basic and very handy tool.
Bav, we have already established that Edge on iPhone is as fast as 3G on N95. Because the processor on the iPhone is way faster.
It's not. Both are ARM11 with an additional GPU. The N95 runs at 332Mhz and the iPhone at 412Mhz (apparently - it got boosted in a recent update).
It all comes down to usability. The other day I was driving, looking for a Dry Cleaners. I stopped at the lights, pressed MAP, typed Dry Cleaners, and BOOM! There were two pins, before the lights went green.
How did it know where you were without GPS?
Try it on your N95. 3G or not. The unit I played with took three seconds to unlock.
In my typical use, the iPhone formula of Edge + Processor + Screen + Interface results in getting to the info faster than, tiddly screen, slow CPU, keypad and 3G. Your experience might be different.
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
Same here. I keep thinking that you guys are referring to GPRS when you're making those speed comparisons, since that's all I can get. I forget that EDGE is actually faster!
Amorya
It's not. Both are ARM11 with an additional GPU. The N95 runs at 332Mhz and the iPhone at 412Mhz (apparently - it got boosted in a recent update).
The N95 seems to be 2 or 3 times slower doing the same thing. I suspect that the iPhone is offloading graphics rendering to a co-processor. I'm guessing that the Nokia is not. I prefer to judge these things from *outcomes* (how fast it is) and not *inputs*. (what processor it has)
If you look at the page layouts in the screenshots, you'll see that the paragraph after "Welcome to Apple Insider" is correctly rendered full-width on the iPhone. But on the Nokia is wrapped using only the first third of the screen. So despite having a smaller screen, it makes poor use of the limited real-estate. Webkit or not, the page looks like ass.
Acceptable, possibly. Identical, err, no not really.
How did it know where you were without GPS?
The map search is centered on the last search. My previous search was the same city.
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
Maps are OK on GPRS, as is Google search. Pages with lots of individual file references which are sluggish. Edge is faster. Wifi is faster still. But I am not interested in the "bit-rate". All I care about is how long does it take me to get to the fact.
C.
How did it know where you were without GPS?
The good news is that it doesn’t have to, aegisdesign. You simply type in what you’re looking for, perhaps with the name of your city, and then hit search – the results come right up. I’ve impressed several people (of the 29 that bought an iPhone after witnessing mine) with that and this is while using EDGE, not Wi-Fi. After bringing up what they’re looking for, I then show how they can press a single button and easily make it a bookmark, get directions to it, or turn it into a contact, among other options.
For the most part I keep the city in the map field and then just type in front of it for what I’m looking for. Over EDGE it’s faster than looking for a phone book then flipping through the pages. It’s also free, as compared to calling information.
Good for you. I don't have EDGE anywhere near me.
I understand aegisdesign and Amorya. Hopefully it comes to you sooner than later.
This drives the point home, however, that for those that keep talking about 3G iPhones being what Apple should have started out with, as what would have been a mistake. EDGE is far more dominant in the US than 3G – not everyone has EDGE, let alone 3G. It makes far more business sense to introduce a new cell phone with a large and solid infrastructure, using the fastest data speeds that the most people can get. Now that over a million people in the US have an iPhone they will likely introduce a 3G – even if there are less places that can make the most of the higher speed – as it otherwise shifts down to EDGE.
Apple might release the US 3G after June, if only because that would be a solid year from when the first one came out. That effectively gave AT&T a year to improve and expand their 3G network.
For most uses, the iPhone works great for accessing the net and doing whatever you wanted to do. Sure, there’s room for improvement but after twenty years even Windows isn’t perfect, hehe.
I understand aegisdesign and Amorya. Hopefully it comes to you sooner than later.
This drives the point home, however, that for those that keep talking about 3G iPhones being what Apple should have started out with, as what would have been a mistake. EDGE is far more dominant in the US than 3G ? not everyone has EDGE, let alone 3G.
Yeah, I understand why they did it for the US one.
The difference is, here 3G has 70% of the UK covered, and EDGE has 30%. That's why we're bitter. I'd be OK if O2 would improve their EDGE network, but there's no real incentive for them to do so. There will be a 3G iPhone next year (touch wood), so they're probably just waiting for that rather than increasing coverage of EDGE.
Amorya