Sources: Apple Newton-tablet not ripe for Macworld

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  • Reply 121 of 160
    vineavinea Posts: 5,585member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    A poor substitute.



    Depends on the dock and the CPU on the tablet. If it is a reasonable CPU (x86 not ARM) and the dock interface has SATA, PCIe and USB then you could drive a 30" ACD from the dock with additional HDD space and peripherals when docked.



    That should make it equal, more or less, to an iMac. GPU performance will be lower if the PCIe connection is only x1 but driving one or more monitors would be possible if you included some GPU that could support dual channel DVI in the dock and two DVI outputs.
  • Reply 122 of 160
    What a lot of us are saying is that, while the tablet wouldn't have a keyboard attached to it, we suspect it will include bluetooth so you CAN use a regular keyboard when you want/need to. The software keyboard would most likely be used for quick things, like a sudden email. If you need to take notes, then a compatible pen (I recall on Mac Rumors something about that being working into new multitouch devices) would work fine. Not handwritting recognition alone though, a black page that will let you write on it.



    But maybe you are right Melgross. Maybe they just need that killer app. Maybe that is why, if the rumors are true, it is being delayed. They have the hardware figured out but they just need that one little bit of software that will allow them to corner the market on tablets, that will make Microsoft go "Sonofagun, why didn't WE think of that?"
  • Reply 123 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by vinea View Post


    Depends on the dock and the CPU on the tablet. If it is a reasonable CPU (x86 not ARM) and the dock interface has SATA, PCIe and USB then you could drive a 30" ACD from the dock with additional HDD space and peripherals when docked.



    That should make it equal, more or less, to an iMac. GPU performance will be lower if the PCIe connection is only x1 but driving one or more monitors would be possible if you included some GPU that could support dual channel DVI in the dock and two DVI outputs.



    I agree with you on what you're saying. I do think that most people look at docks as being clumsy. There is a certain market for one, but I don't think it's that large.



    It's funny though. Apple was one of the first, if not THE first to offer a dock, but abandoned them years ago, while PC manufacturers keep offering them.



    I'd be curious to know what the sales numbers are for Docks.



    Anyone have an idea?
  • Reply 124 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rogzilla View Post


    What a lot of us are saying is that, while the tablet wouldn't have a keyboard attached to it, we suspect it will include bluetooth so you CAN use a regular keyboard when you want/need to. The software keyboard would most likely be used for quick things, like a sudden email. If you need to take notes, then a compatible pen (I recall on Mac Rumors something about that being working into new multitouch devices) would work fine. Not handwritting recognition alone though, a black page that will let you write on it.



    But maybe you are right Melgross. Maybe they just need that killer app. Maybe that is why, if the rumors are true, it is being delayed. They have the hardware figured out but they just need that one little bit of software that will allow them to corner the market on tablets, that will make Microsoft go "Sonofagun, why didn't WE think of that?"



    I'm not sure that's what many of you are saying that at all. The idea of needing to carry a keyboard that's separate, almost everywhere you go, is not a "feature", but a bug!



    I just can't see people who need to type, using a tablet at this time. The one problem with tablet keyboards is that you MUST look at them while you type. That's ok if what you're doing requires looking at the screen, which is part iof the keyboard.



    But, if you're at a lecture, or in a meeting, you can't often do that. You must look at the speaker, or at what she's doing.



    There must be some way for your fingers to "feel" the keys. Not only when you press them, but when they're resting on them as well. I have some ideas on that, but it's not something that anyone is doing yet.



    Writing on the screen with a stylus would work, as handwriting recognition is getting better, but Jobs just doesn't like the stylus. We know that. It's one thing that limits what can be done with the iPhone/iTouch. It would also limit a tablet.



    With no one here having any idea as to what Apple might even be thinking on these lines, it's safest to think that they won't be thinking anything they haven shown in products, or in their patent filings. I see no evidence for a stylus in either.
  • Reply 125 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    ...With regards to tablets, the situation is different. The reason why PC tablets are such clunky things, with keyboards, is because people simply aren't ready to abandon keyboards. There is also no killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet, and that's important....



    I see it the opposite. You don't need a killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet. You need an app that DOESN'T REQUIRE a keyboard. And there are a lot of those - most importantly Safari and iTunes.



    I really think though that the hardware must be there first for a tablet to work. Fast low-power processor. Thin, durable and low-power display, etc. Great battery.



    A display like this would make it all work- but it's a way off:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYKAeBTiUg
  • Reply 126 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brockway View Post


    I see it the opposite. You don't need a killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet. You need an app that DOESN'T REQUIRE a keyboard. And there are a lot of those - most importantly Safari and iTunes.



    I really think though that the hardware must be there first for a tablet to work. Fast low-power processor. Thin, durable and low-power display, etc. Great battery.



    A display like this would make it all work- but it's a way off:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYKAeBTiUg



    Really?



    And just how are you posting to this forum? Crayons?



    Oh, and that display is quite a ways off, and would solve nothing.
  • Reply 127 of 160
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by brockway View Post


    I see it the opposite. You don't need a killer app that would REQUIRE a tablet. You need an app that DOESN'T REQUIRE a keyboard. And there are a lot of those - most importantly Safari and iTunes.



    I really think though that the hardware must be there first for a tablet to work. Fast low-power processor. Thin, durable and low-power display, etc. Great battery.



    A display like this would make it all work- but it's a way off:



    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vOYKAeBTiUg



    What?! How are you going to input websites and post replies and access webmail, et cetera? The iTunes that doesn't require a keyboard is called the iPod.
  • Reply 128 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I'm not sure that's what many of you are saying that at all. The idea of needing to carry a keyboard that's separate, almost everywhere you go, is not a "feature", but a bug!



    I just can't see people who need to type, using a tablet at this time. The one problem with tablet keyboards is that you MUST look at them while you type. That's ok if what you're doing requires looking at the screen, which is part iof the keyboard.



    But, if you're at a lecture, or in a meeting, you can't often do that. You must look at the speaker, or at what she's doing.



    There must be some way for your fingers to "feel" the keys. Not only when you press them, but when they're resting on them as well. I have some ideas on that, but it's not something that anyone is doing yet.



    Writing on the screen with a stylus would work, as handwriting recognition is getting better, but Jobs just doesn't like the stylus. We know that. It's one thing that limits what can be done with the iPhone/iTouch. It would also limit a tablet.



    With no one here having any idea as to what Apple might even be thinking on these lines, it's safest to think that they won't be thinking anything they haven shown in products, or in their patent filings. I see no evidence for a stylus in either.



    How much of a hassle would that be? I mean, 1-you wouldn't NEED to carry it, just if you wanted the regular keyboard. and 2-Just get a sachel/laptop bag. That's my plan. You can get a simple one for $20. I know not everyone uses laptop bags...but I just don't understand why you WOULDN'T!



    I need to type and I would love a tablet, cause I also need to draw. And yes, I think despite Jobs "not liking a stylus" it would have pen input. It wouldn't be the primary means of input. Most would be done by fingers. But for writing and drawing, yes, of course. Apple knows artists use their computers, that Macs are the standard for the field. They would want to be sure to appeal to them. I just don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.



    Let me put it like this. If the tablet DIDN'T have the ability to pair with a bluetooth keyboard or have pen input, then I would have very little interest in it.



    Sure, its safest, but this is fun! I like thinking up things I would like to see. Until tomorrow, we just don't know. Maybe they will! Maybe they wont! The random speculation is part of the FUN!
  • Reply 129 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rogzilla View Post


    How much of a hassle would that be? I mean, 1-you wouldn't NEED to carry it, just if you wanted the regular keyboard. and 2-Just get a sachel/laptop bag. That's my plan. You can get a simple one for $20. I know not everyone uses laptop bags...but I just don't understand why you WOULDN'T!



    I need to type and I would love a tablet, cause I also need to draw. And yes, I think despite Jobs "not liking a stylus" it would have pen input. It wouldn't be the primary means of input. Most would be done by fingers. But for writing and drawing, yes, of course. Apple knows artists use their computers, that Macs are the standard for the field. They would want to be sure to appeal to them. I just don't think it is out of the realm of possibility.



    Let me put it like this. If the tablet DIDN'T have the ability to pair with a bluetooth keyboard or have pen input, then I would have very little interest in it.



    Sure, its safest, but this is fun! I like thinking up things I would like to see. Until tomorrow, we just don't know. Maybe they will! Maybe they wont! The random speculation is part of the FUN!



    Business people and college students would need it almost all the time. Walking around campus going from class to class. In business, when don't you have to type?



    I've already had someone tell me that she wouldn't like an ultralight because it won't have a built-in CD/DVD player. I asked how often she needed one, and the response was that it didn't matter, she didn't want to carry one around when she did need it.



    It would be much worse for a keyboard.



    And you can't make assumptions like, "even if Jobs doesn't like it, it will have a stylus".



    If Jobs doesn't like it, it's not there. He already stated why he didn't like it.



    Besides, there is no tablet product even rumored, so speculation as to how it will work is fruitless. We just can guess how it will not work by what we do know.
  • Reply 130 of 160
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I've already had someone tell me that she wouldn't like an ultralight because it won't have a built-in CD/DVD player. I asked how often she needed one, and the response was that it didn't matter, she didn't want to carry one around when she did need it.



    There will be those who don't fit the market and there are those who don't think they fit the market but do. I never saw myself getting an iPod until the iPod mini came to fruition. I also didn't like the new iPod nano "fatty" until I saw it in person and decided it was brilliant.



    Apple has a long history of making people 180 their previous feeling about a technological path, I don't think that a optical drive-less portable will be any different.





    Quote:

    Besides, there is no tablet product even rumored, so speculation as to how it will work is fruitless. We just can guess how it will not work by what we do know.



    I agree. If it were coming I'd expect the developer software for OS X would be filled with potential "killer apps" ideal for a Mac tablet.
  • Reply 131 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by solipsism View Post


    There will be those who don't fit the market and there are those who don't think they fit the market but do. I never saw myself getting an iPod until the iPod mini came to fruition. I also didn't like the new iPod nano "fatty" until I saw it in person and decided it was brilliant.



    Apple has a long history of making people 180 their previous feeling about a technological path, I don't think that a optical drive-less portable will be any different.



    They also have a habit of losing potential customers because of their ideas and designs. It cuts two ways.



    Quote:

    I agree. If it were coming I'd expect the developer software for OS X would be filled with potential "killer apps" ideal for a Mac tablet.



    There would be something.
  • Reply 132 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    Business people and college students would need it almost all the time. Walking around campus going from class to class. In business, when don't you have to type?



    I've already had someone tell me that she wouldn't like an ultralight because it won't have a built-in CD/DVD player. I asked how often she needed one, and the response was that it didn't matter, she didn't want to carry one around when she did need it.



    It would be much worse for a keyboard.



    And you can't make assumptions like, "even if Jobs doesn't like it, it will have a stylus".



    If Jobs doesn't like it, it's not there. He already stated why he didn't like it.



    Besides, there is no tablet product even rumored, so speculation as to how it will work is fruitless. We just can guess how it will not work by what we do know.



    All the time, but then many businesses use Microsoft Exchange and the iPhone (so far as I understand it) doesn't play nice with it. Yet lots of people still use it, even though it doesn't work with their business email.



    So one woman didn't want to carry around a large extra drive? Well, no duh! Those are several pounds and not very slick. If she can't live without one, then an ultraportable isn't for her.



    How would it be worse with a keyboard? I know my current aluminum keyboard is pretty light. The bluetooth one is pretty small, designed to sit on a lap. How is it worse? It seems like it would be better than carrying around an extra drive!



    And I am not saying stylus. I am saying pen. Pen input. Yes, like a stylus, but not. A stylus is used as a primary input and creates only one line width. A pen, on the other hand, is a secondary input designed for specific uses. It is presure sensative so you can very your line width. The other end has a seperate input that acts as an eraser (though you can set it for other things). It could even have two buttons on the side for right clicking and other uses. A stylus is a buck. A pen is $60. (Yes, I used a Wacom pen as an example.)



    And for Apple to NOT include it is a great big middle finger to all the artists and designers who have been waiting for one like myself, espcially those like me who don't want to pay $2000+ for a Modbook. Not to mention the fact that allowing pen input (again, as secondary, you wouldn't even HAVE to buy the pen if you didn't want too!) would allow it to appeal to a larger market and seem, over all, more practical.



    Now I don't know WHY Jobs doesn't like it, I am not that big of a fan boy. I can assume it is simply because touching is easier than having to use a stylus. But there is that word, HAVING to use it. If Apple did it the way I hope they do, you don't HAVE to use the pen. BUT you do have the OPTION of using it if it would be bennificial. Also, why does LEOPARD still have Ink Well if they aren't considering somesort of Pen (or even stylus). If they were NEVER going to use it, then they would have gotten rid of it. I know with my Intous, I can use it, but its really hard cause I can't see what I am writing (should have waited and gotten the 12" Cinque...oh well!)



    And yes, there is a tablet rumored. I understand it has been rumored for a while. The iPhone story not long ago stated that the phone was derived from technology that was being developed for an Apple Tablet. Beyond that, we don't know. And ALL speculation is fruitless because it is speculation. Odds are, it wont happen. It doesn't mean we can't have fun doing it!
  • Reply 133 of 160
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    I agree with the reports that it's un;ike;y they will deliver either right now. But, the reports are also betting on the smaller one for sometime this year.



    You might have noticed that most people on this forum, with the exception of a small number of vocal people supporting it, don't want the big model. Those who favor a new touch model mostly want the smaller device.



    I have a feeling that the general population will be even more inclined to think this way.



    You may be forgetting this device is meant to replace your laptop.
  • Reply 134 of 160
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    You may be forgetting this device is meant to replace your laptop.



    A tablet laptop replacement has NEVER worked before.



    It has to be a companion device, not a replacement.



    Besides, it makes business sense to sell BOTH to an individual consumer. To create a market where there is a desire/need for both.



    Anyway, we'll see what happens tomorrow, and in the coming months.
  • Reply 135 of 160
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by melgross View Post


    MP3 players were a new market.



    Despite what way you look at it, I see the Mac touch as being a new market too. There currently is no market for tablets, Apple will create one. This device would be a huge hit in Asia.. as well as Europe.
  • Reply 136 of 160
    irelandireland Posts: 17,798member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by macsation View Post


    A tablet laptop replacement has NEVER worked before.



    It has to be a companion device, not a replacement.



    I mean it will be a laptop replacement for some people, not everyone. More so for people with large desktops.
  • Reply 137 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Rogzilla View Post


    All the time, but then many businesses use Microsoft Exchange and the iPhone (so far as I understand it) doesn't play nice with it. Yet lots of people still use it, even though it doesn't work with their business email.



    That's a poor example. And those using the iPhone for business are few. Besides that, software has already come out from several prominent companies that makes the iPhone a more attractive business investment.



    [quote]

    So one woman didn't want to carry around a large extra drive? Well, no duh! Those are several pounds and not very slick. If she can't live without one, then an ultraportable isn't for her. {/quote]



    These drives only weigh a few ounces, not several pounds, certainly no more than ther keyboard would weigh.



    Quote:

    How would it be worse with a keyboard? I know my current aluminum keyboard is pretty light. The bluetooth one is pretty small, designed to sit on a lap. How is it worse? It seems like it would be better than carrying around an extra drive!



    It isn't the weight per se, but the fact that you need another device.



    Quote:

    And I am not saying stylus. I am saying pen. Pen input. Yes, like a stylus, but not. A stylus is used as a primary input and creates only one line width. A pen, on the other hand, is a secondary input designed for specific uses. It is presure sensative so you can very your line width. The other end has a seperate input that acts as an eraser (though you can set it for other things). It could even have two buttons on the side for right clicking and other uses. A stylus is a buck. A pen is $60. (Yes, I used a Wacom pen as an example.)



    You want to argue semantics? A pen is even larger than a stylus. Jobs doesn't like the idea of a separate device needed for input. That's it.



    I know how the Wacoms and other graphics tablets, work. I've used them since the '80's.



    Quote:

    And for Apple to NOT include it is a great big middle finger to all the artists and designers who have been waiting for one like myself, espcially those like me who don't want to pay $2000+ for a Modbook. Not to mention the fact that allowing pen input (again, as secondary, you wouldn't even HAVE to buy the pen if you didn't want too!) would allow it to appeal to a larger market and seem, over all, more practical.



    Now, you see the problem.



    [quote]

    Now I don't know WHY Jobs doesn't like it, I am not that big of a fan boy. I can assume it is simply because touching is easier than having to use a stylus. But there is that word, HAVING to use it. If Apple did it the way I hope they do, you don't HAVE to use the pen. BUT you do have the OPTION of using it if it would be bennificial. Also, why does LEOPARD still have Ink Well if they aren't considering somesort of Pen (or even stylus). If they were NEVER going to use it, then they would have gotten rid of it. I know with my Intous, I can use it, but its really hard cause I can't see what I am writing (should have waited and gotten the 12" Cinque...oh well!)



    It was very simple, as I said above. I've already complained, last January, about the lack of the use of a stylus (pen, whatever). But, did Apple listen to me? No. Will they listen to you? No.



    Quote:

    And yes, there is a tablet rumored. I understand it has been rumored for a while. The iPhone story not long ago stated that the phone was derived from technology that was being developed for an Apple Tablet. Beyond that, we don't know. And ALL speculation is fruitless because it is speculation. Odds are, it wont happen. It doesn't mean we can't have fun doing it!



    There is no tablet rumor. There is speculation on whether Apple will produce one. That is not the same as a rumor saying that Apple is about to produce one.



    The only rumor on that front is for the Newton-like device, which is much smaller, and very different. One of those might eventually make it.
  • Reply 138 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Ireland View Post


    Despite what way you look at it, I see the Mac touch as being a new market too. There currently is no market for tablets, Apple will create one. This device would be a huge hit in Asia.. as well as Europe.



    It's nice that you think so. But your thinking so doesn't make it true.



    So far, there is about NO interest in a tablet, even here, with so far, just about three of four people being interested in the larger form you are pushing. About three times that number have given the ok for the Newton sized device, and the rest don't seem to care at all for either.



    And these forums are more forward looking (techie) than the public at large.
  • Reply 139 of 160
    amorphamorph Posts: 7,112member
    I agree that the odds of Apple producing a stylus are nil.



    But how possible would it be for, say, Griffin or even Wacom to sell a stylus that mimics the finger's magnetic field, only far smaller? Does the software assume a ~50px fingertip or is it actually aware of the size and shape of the area of contact?



    If the former, oh well. If the latter there's a golden Third Party Opportunity.
  • Reply 140 of 160
    melgrossmelgross Posts: 33,510member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by Amorph View Post


    I agree that the odds of Apple producing a stylus are nil.



    But how possible would it be for, say, Griffin or even Wacom to sell a stylus that mimics the finger's magnetic field, only far smaller? Does the software assume a ~50px fingertip or is it actually aware of the size and shape of the area of contact?



    If the former, oh well. If the latter there's a golden Third Party Opportunity.



    I don't know. I've been thinking about that myself. If it were easily possible, then it should have been out already.



    It's also a capacitive effect.



    When I get my iPhone, later this year, if one isn't already out, I plan to do some tests and experiments. But, who knows? Sometimes, even knowing how it works, and why, isn't enough to work around the special characteristics of a real finger.
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