I don't think DVR in itself will do much to help ATV. It may have been different when DVR was rare But today cable companies dominate the DVR market that I'd unlikely to change.
What would help ATV more is to open up to other video download services. Such as Netflix, Hulu, and Joost.
I agree. Lots of us have service that we are happy with. My FIOS is great overall. It has a DVR. The only thing is that they need to download better search software.
The Apple TV would need to be seriously re-engineered to be a DVR. While 160GB might be enough to hold what you want to rent for the night or weekend, its way insufficient for true HD DVR functionality. That's only providing ~20ish hrs of HD programming.
A DVR needs alot of space to really shine. I hope Apple goes down this road, but the device in its current form would only really be useful for DVR'ing at standard def because its hard drive sizes are way too small at HD except for the renting model.
To the user who said the Tivo HD Series 3 doesn't work with Standard Definition, that is incorrect.
I actually have a Series 3 HD Tivo hooked up to standard definition (non digital) cable only (not cable cards) and outputting to a SD TV. It does this beautifully and provides dual tuners on the single cable input. I have this current config as Tivo was offering a lifetime program on the HD Tivo for a limited time and I knew I'd be getting one eventually - lifetime makes it so you don't pay monthly service charges for the TiVo. ;-)
So what DVR is better? It's sure not the ones supplied by the cable or FiOS companies.
The current DVR market is kind of like the pre-iPod mp3 player market, every entry sucks. Even Tivo is no way near Apple quality, and the engineers as Scientifica Atlantica should be shot for producing the hunk of crap that Time Warner uses.
... I don't see Hollywood greenlighting Apple the rights to record their content...
In what ways do the rules differ for Apple compared to Tivo or the various ISPs' DVRs? The devices would record the same content, for the same replay purposes.
On a different part of the issue, one post here said Wu's simply stating the obvious, while another referred to considerable argument that DVRs' days are limited. You and I as consumers would be happy with another dramatically improved Apple device we could get pleasure from for 2-3 years; as a stockholder, i want the company's management to make the right decision for allocating its cash reserves, its R&D resources, and its reputation. On the one hand the company seems in an unenviable position where hundreds of millions of dollars--Wu says maybe billions--are at stake and we all await a critical decision. On the other hand, Apple survived the Newton, the Cube, and ( ________ fill in your favorite example here). I used to have a boss who preached that if you're not trying some ventures that fail, you're not trying enough, and that argument could be applied here.
At any rate, nothing simple about the situation. But it sure is engaging to anticipate the outcome.
I don't think DVR in itself will do much to help ATV. It may have been different when DVR was rare But today cable companies dominate the DVR market that I'd unlikely to change.
In some ways, that's like saying everyone has a computer, there's no point in trying to sell them a better one. But there are problems because in some ways, it would require CableCard to do it well, and the word seems to be that CableCard is horrible, in standard and implementation.
But I would like a better Mac-based PVR. The EyeTV devices I have have are a bit flaky & crashy. I think my one of my Hybrids just died last week. I didn't try to trouble shoot it, I happened to have a spare that I used instead just to get it going again.
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
Because next to "Wall Street Analyst Shaw Wu" he's the premiere source of inside info of the future of Macs.
... I don't see Hollywood greenlighting Apple the rights to record their content...
Quote:
In what ways do the rules differ for Apple compared to Tivo or the various ISPs' DVRs? The devices would record the same content, for the same replay purposes.
I dont know if there are any contractual limitations on the ability of Apple to provide a DVR service but...they are trying to sell video content through the iTunes store. Who is going to buy South Park episodes when the same interface can just snag it for free using DVR?
I personally think this patent filing is complete hedge. On one hand it is a direct threat aimed at the studios, and on the other it is a way to proceed if the studios drag their feet much longer.
I hope it comes out before the Feb 2009 change over as I need to buy a new DVR because of the changer over as my old DVD-R recorder will not work in 2009...
Hope Apple make it able to record several shows at once on over the air TV for those of us who do not have cable.
I hope it comes out before the Feb 2009 change over as I need to buy a new DVR because of the changer over as my old DVD-R recorder will not work in 2009...
Hope Apple make it able to record several shows at once on over the air TV for those of us who do not have cable.
Depending on your DVR, I think you can hook up your DVR to one of the new DTV converter boxes. You would have to have one per tuner to do a multi-tuner setup.
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
By all Macs I mean the product line not literally every single MAC- duh!
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
Why are you so resistant to a blu-ray drive? You really need to get over it. Were you this reluctant when CD drives became DVD drives? Or when CDs bypassed tape? The more information you can record - the better. Why be so negative all the time. Embrace change.
In looking at the report on the patent filings, the images of an iPod-like remote got me to thinking that a DVR version of the Apple TV would provide a great opportunity for further device integration.
I currently have a DVR/cable box from my digital cable provider that has about 50hours recording time in it (which is enough for me). What I hope for is an Apple TV that I could not only use to purchase or stream content from my Macs, but also use as my digital cable tuner.
Now consider the remote. Seems to me that nothing would be more perfect than for Apple to add remote control functions to the iPhone and iPod Touch that would allow users to control an Apple TV (or Mac for that matter) with the simple touch of an icon on the screen. Touch your iPhone or iPod screen to bring up a user-friendly menu to control video playback from the ATV or your Mac.
Something along these lines would suddenly integrate the Apple hardware in a way that could almost entirely remove other equipment from your living room.
As an example, I've already done away with my DVD player by attaching my Mac mini directly to my 32" Sharp flat-panel TV. I play all my movies on the mini's DVD drive; I ditched my stereo and now play all my music digitally via my Mac mini from iTunes libraries on other Macs in my house through Airport Express. The only non-Apple harware left in my TV stand is my cable provider's tuner...it sure would be nice to ditch that too, in favour of an Apple TV/DVR.
Apologies if I haven't explained this well, but I'm convinced that this type of a strategy would provide many great new opportunities for Apple.
Cheers.
Ps. Similarly, I think Apple missed the boat with its iPod Hifi; the unit should have also included an Airport card that would have allowed people to stream their iTunes libraries to it or plugged their iPod into it and taken it on the road. There's lots more for Apple to do in the living room....I just hope they get to it soon.
Why are you so resistant to a blu-ray drive? You really need to get over it. Were you this reluctant when CD drives became DVD drives? Or when CDs bypassed tape? The more information you can record - the better. Why be so negative all the time. Embrace change.
I am not resistant to Blu-ray. My point has always been that you and a few others always jump on Apple for no reason at all. As I pointed out a number of times, Apple is not the culprit here. As yet there is no product, driver, or configuration, available or priced properly to fit Apples product line.
You really need to get over dissing Apple at every turn. And I do mean literally all the time.
I am not resistant to Blu-ray. My point has always been that you and a few others always jump on Apple for no reason at all. As I pointed out a number of times, Apple is not the culprit here. As yet there is no product, driver, or configuration, available or priced properly to fit Apples product line.
You really need to get over dissing Apple at every turn. And I do mean literally all the time.
Bud- I don't diss Apple all the time. What is your problem? I will be very happy when they get a blu-ray drive that records the files that I have made using Apple's excellent application called iMovieHD. Get over it. \
I used to think that Mr Wu was OK...as far as analysts go. But this article shows a lot of ignorance.
Competing with cable and satellite TV in the DVR market would be VERY difficult. It's not just that other companies aren't doing it very well...they just aren't doing it. TiVo is arguably the best one out there, but even with their subscription fees they lose money EVERY quarter. They are finally resorting to licensing their software to cable providers. And once that becomes more widespread, it would be even more difficult for Apple to play in that market. Apple could undoubtably do a better job of it. They might even be able to be successful at it; but I don't think they'd be the "billions" of dollars successful as Mr Wu predicts.
The $12-15 dollars of incremental cost to make Apple TV a DVR also show much lack of knowledge. First, you'd need a much bigger hard drive. 160 GB is the minimum for any DVR. The larger Apple TV has that, but then you also need room for syncing your iTunes content. You also need better video circuitry. Currently, while Apple TV can output 1080i, it's actually limited internally to 720p (fixable with a firmware update?). You also need to be able to support the MPEG formats the cable company uses, which Apple TV currently does not support. Next you need to add the hardware for the cable hookup, CableCard slots, and tuners (dual-tuner is a must have). And that's just to meet today's standards. By the end of the year, CableCards will be obsolete technology. How will Apple TV support two-way communication for SDV and OCAP? For that they'll need to add a communiations module. And that's just to get it to work with cable not satellite.
And in response to a few of the other posts...there is nothing the studios can do to prevent Apple from building a DVR. So Apple wouldn't need their "permission" or to obtain "rights" as some have suggested. However, it might upset the studios enough to negatively affect Apple when it comes time to negotiate for iTunes content.
I'm not saying Apple won't do it. But I'm very skeptical that DVR functionality is what will make Apple TV mulit-billion dollar market. Most people will continue to get the DRV service from the cable/satellite provider.
Comments
I don't think DVR in itself will do much to help ATV. It may have been different when DVR was rare But today cable companies dominate the DVR market that I'd unlikely to change.
What would help ATV more is to open up to other video download services. Such as Netflix, Hulu, and Joost.
I agree. Lots of us have service that we are happy with. My FIOS is great overall. It has a DVR. The only thing is that they need to download better search software.
A DVR needs alot of space to really shine. I hope Apple goes down this road, but the device in its current form would only really be useful for DVR'ing at standard def because its hard drive sizes are way too small at HD except for the renting model.
To the user who said the Tivo HD Series 3 doesn't work with Standard Definition, that is incorrect.
I actually have a Series 3 HD Tivo hooked up to standard definition (non digital) cable only (not cable cards) and outputting to a SD TV. It does this beautifully and provides dual tuners on the single cable input. I have this current config as Tivo was offering a lifetime program on the HD Tivo for a limited time and I knew I'd be getting one eventually - lifetime makes it so you don't pay monthly service charges for the TiVo. ;-)
Just my $.02...
So what DVR is better? It's sure not the ones supplied by the cable or FiOS companies.
The current DVR market is kind of like the pre-iPod mp3 player market, every entry sucks. Even Tivo is no way near Apple quality, and the engineers as Scientifica Atlantica should be shot for producing the hunk of crap that Time Warner uses.
... I don't see Hollywood greenlighting Apple the rights to record their content...
In what ways do the rules differ for Apple compared to Tivo or the various ISPs' DVRs? The devices would record the same content, for the same replay purposes.
On a different part of the issue, one post here said Wu's simply stating the obvious, while another referred to considerable argument that DVRs' days are limited. You and I as consumers would be happy with another dramatically improved Apple device we could get pleasure from for 2-3 years; as a stockholder, i want the company's management to make the right decision for allocating its cash reserves, its R&D resources, and its reputation. On the one hand the company seems in an unenviable position where hundreds of millions of dollars--Wu says maybe billions--are at stake and we all await a critical decision. On the other hand, Apple survived the Newton, the Cube, and ( ________ fill in your favorite example here). I used to have a boss who preached that if you're not trying some ventures that fail, you're not trying enough, and that argument could be applied here.
At any rate, nothing simple about the situation. But it sure is engaging to anticipate the outcome.
I don't think DVR in itself will do much to help ATV. It may have been different when DVR was rare But today cable companies dominate the DVR market that I'd unlikely to change.
In some ways, that's like saying everyone has a computer, there's no point in trying to sell them a better one. But there are problems because in some ways, it would require CableCard to do it well, and the word seems to be that CableCard is horrible, in standard and implementation.
But I would like a better Mac-based PVR. The EyeTV devices I have have are a bit flaky & crashy. I think my one of my Hybrids just died last week. I didn't try to trouble shoot it, I happened to have a spare that I used instead just to get it going again.
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
Because next to "Wall Street Analyst Shaw Wu" he's the premiere source of inside info of the future of Macs.
They could just release an add on that works through the USB port on the back? just make it optional for people...
I think that this is a great solution. It won't piss off everybody that has already bought the AppleTV.
... I don't see Hollywood greenlighting Apple the rights to record their content...
In what ways do the rules differ for Apple compared to Tivo or the various ISPs' DVRs? The devices would record the same content, for the same replay purposes.
I dont know if there are any contractual limitations on the ability of Apple to provide a DVR service but...they are trying to sell video content through the iTunes store. Who is going to buy South Park episodes when the same interface can just snag it for free using DVR?
I personally think this patent filing is complete hedge. On one hand it is a direct threat aimed at the studios, and on the other it is a way to proceed if the studios drag their feet much longer.
I also see Apple partnering with Cisco in this realm.
That would be unlikely, because Cisco owns Scientific Atlanta,
which is a major set-top box manufacturer.
Hope Apple make it able to record several shows at once on over the air TV for those of us who do not have cable.
Because next to "Wall Street Analyst Shaw Wu" he's the premiere source of inside info of the future of Macs.
No - because like 1 plus 1 equals 2?
I hope it comes out before the Feb 2009 change over as I need to buy a new DVR because of the changer over as my old DVD-R recorder will not work in 2009...
Hope Apple make it able to record several shows at once on over the air TV for those of us who do not have cable.
Depending on your DVR, I think you can hook up your DVR to one of the new DTV converter boxes. You would have to have one per tuner to do a multi-tuner setup.
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
By all Macs I mean the product line not literally every single MAC- duh!
Not to burst your bubble, but how did, "?Apple and Sony appear to be in the final negotiation stages of bringing Blu-ray to Macs." come to be, "And there you have it. Blu-ray to all Macs??"
Why are you so resistant to a blu-ray drive? You really need to get over it. Were you this reluctant when CD drives became DVD drives? Or when CDs bypassed tape? The more information you can record - the better. Why be so negative all the time. Embrace change.
By all Macs I mean the product line not literally every single MAC- duh!
Like hell. All literally means every!
I currently have a DVR/cable box from my digital cable provider that has about 50hours recording time in it (which is enough for me). What I hope for is an Apple TV that I could not only use to purchase or stream content from my Macs, but also use as my digital cable tuner.
Now consider the remote. Seems to me that nothing would be more perfect than for Apple to add remote control functions to the iPhone and iPod Touch that would allow users to control an Apple TV (or Mac for that matter) with the simple touch of an icon on the screen. Touch your iPhone or iPod screen to bring up a user-friendly menu to control video playback from the ATV or your Mac.
Something along these lines would suddenly integrate the Apple hardware in a way that could almost entirely remove other equipment from your living room.
As an example, I've already done away with my DVD player by attaching my Mac mini directly to my 32" Sharp flat-panel TV. I play all my movies on the mini's DVD drive; I ditched my stereo and now play all my music digitally via my Mac mini from iTunes libraries on other Macs in my house through Airport Express. The only non-Apple harware left in my TV stand is my cable provider's tuner...it sure would be nice to ditch that too, in favour of an Apple TV/DVR.
Apologies if I haven't explained this well, but I'm convinced that this type of a strategy would provide many great new opportunities for Apple.
Cheers.
Ps. Similarly, I think Apple missed the boat with its iPod Hifi; the unit should have also included an Airport card that would have allowed people to stream their iTunes libraries to it or plugged their iPod into it and taken it on the road. There's lots more for Apple to do in the living room....I just hope they get to it soon.
Why are you so resistant to a blu-ray drive? You really need to get over it. Were you this reluctant when CD drives became DVD drives? Or when CDs bypassed tape? The more information you can record - the better. Why be so negative all the time. Embrace change.
I am not resistant to Blu-ray. My point has always been that you and a few others always jump on Apple for no reason at all. As I pointed out a number of times, Apple is not the culprit here. As yet there is no product, driver, or configuration, available or priced properly to fit Apples product line.
You really need to get over dissing Apple at every turn. And I do mean literally all the time.
Like hell. All literally means every!
Not in the phrase "All for one and one for All" in its original context it ment 4 so "All" = 4
So.. that'll be the Mac pro, the Mac Book Pro, the iMac and the Mac Book.
go on, I double dare you to be pedantic
I am not resistant to Blu-ray. My point has always been that you and a few others always jump on Apple for no reason at all. As I pointed out a number of times, Apple is not the culprit here. As yet there is no product, driver, or configuration, available or priced properly to fit Apples product line.
You really need to get over dissing Apple at every turn. And I do mean literally all the time.
Bud- I don't diss Apple all the time. What is your problem? I will be very happy when they get a blu-ray drive that records the files that I have made using Apple's excellent application called iMovieHD. Get over it.
Competing with cable and satellite TV in the DVR market would be VERY difficult. It's not just that other companies aren't doing it very well...they just aren't doing it. TiVo is arguably the best one out there, but even with their subscription fees they lose money EVERY quarter. They are finally resorting to licensing their software to cable providers. And once that becomes more widespread, it would be even more difficult for Apple to play in that market. Apple could undoubtably do a better job of it. They might even be able to be successful at it; but I don't think they'd be the "billions" of dollars successful as Mr Wu predicts.
The $12-15 dollars of incremental cost to make Apple TV a DVR also show much lack of knowledge. First, you'd need a much bigger hard drive. 160 GB is the minimum for any DVR. The larger Apple TV has that, but then you also need room for syncing your iTunes content. You also need better video circuitry. Currently, while Apple TV can output 1080i, it's actually limited internally to 720p (fixable with a firmware update?). You also need to be able to support the MPEG formats the cable company uses, which Apple TV currently does not support. Next you need to add the hardware for the cable hookup, CableCard slots, and tuners (dual-tuner is a must have). And that's just to meet today's standards. By the end of the year, CableCards will be obsolete technology. How will Apple TV support two-way communication for SDV and OCAP? For that they'll need to add a communiations module. And that's just to get it to work with cable not satellite.
And in response to a few of the other posts...there is nothing the studios can do to prevent Apple from building a DVR. So Apple wouldn't need their "permission" or to obtain "rights" as some have suggested. However, it might upset the studios enough to negatively affect Apple when it comes time to negotiate for iTunes content.
I'm not saying Apple won't do it. But I'm very skeptical that DVR functionality is what will make Apple TV mulit-billion dollar market. Most people will continue to get the DRV service from the cable/satellite provider.