It has been well documented that what has actually happened in the past 20 years is that the right has moved farther to the right, the center and left has stayed pretty much the same. So, from the vantage point of the right, the center looks much farther away (left) than it used to.
The "fiscal" or "moderate" republican has all but disappeared. The democratic party is almost completely run by centrists. There was a push early on by anti-abortionists, christian fundamentalists to take over the lower levels of the party.
As for a liberal bias to the news I have to say, as a liberal, that the mass market news is not at all liberal. 95% of radio talk shows are conservative (including all of AM radio). Most newspaper editorial sections are either centrist or conservative.
Well the Motorola site says the 7XXX processor is for high performance computing, they didn't say the 74XX, denoting G4 class processos. Motorola has taken out the 7500 designation that was previously used to denote the G5 class desktop process, that much is true. but did they specifically stste that 7500 would NOT be used? Perhaps they removed it from the roadmap to help Apple and their secrecy plans. By using 7XXX instead of 74XX, this tells me that they have plans for the future of the 7000 series of model numbers. Desktop G5 may very well be the 7500.
<strong>Perhaps they removed it from the roadmap to help Apple and their secrecy plans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
From some Motorola guy in an article on Maccentral...
"In working with them [Apple], we had to be sure that we didn't steal Apple's thunder. When a customer is as strategic and important as Apple, we don't mind helping their publicity efforts," said Swearingen.
So far, it looks like Apollo, smells like Apollo, and probably is Apollo.
choice quotes from ATAT:
[quote]New Buffy! New Buffy! Oh, thank heaven... we didn't think we'd make it. Just another 86 minutes to go...
(snip)
Rest assured, though, those 800 MHz, 933 MHz, and 1 GHz chips shipping in Apple's latest pro desktops are indeed Apollos, at least according to Will Swearingen, Motorola's Director of Strategic Communications, as quoted by MacCentral.
(snip)
Because if history is any indication, whatever it was is probably going to wind up at the heart of an Apple product roughly a year from now, right? Thus, we spent a little time digging around for clues, and came up with this: an official Motorola press release from MPF2001 describing the MPC8540, the company's "first e500 integrated host processor to employ RapidIO interconnect technology." Apparently it's a "Book E"-based PowerPC chip that will run between 600 MHz and 1 GHz and was "designed for high-speed networking applications" and other "embedded market" uses, such as "communications, automotive, and consumer applications."
So there you have it, folks: come Macworld Expo San Francisco 2003, we'll all be gaping in awe as Steve takes the wraps off Apple's first high-performance router. Or maybe a line of digital-hub kitchen appliances, or possibly a car. But you can be sure that whatever it is, it'll have an e500 at its core and not a G5, because history always repeats itself. Without fail. Yup.<hr></blockquote>
Anyway, since this Apollo is still at .18 microns, I think we'll see a .15 micron Apollo by MWNY. Combined with the natural maturation process, I'd be willing to bet that 1.4-1.6 GHz G4 is not unreasonable by then.
I'm still very interested to know who's gotta make the next move to get DDR: Apple's mobo or Moto's chip. And since they waited so long, how about just skipping straight to 333 (166x2) DDR?
There will be a G5 this year, if not I will buy Suckfuldotcom an iPod....Oh wait, we already agreed to that.
I just think there has to be a new chip on the horizon. Especially with the release of Apollo and the fact it really doesn't support anything new, it's just faster. Apple has to increase the bus speed, move to faster RAM and make a few other overall system enhancements. Since it's not in the Apollo and their are no future G4 variations (that we're aware of) in the pipeline, I have to assume G5 (or some super top secret program no one else is aware of).
<strong>Well the Motorola site says the 7XXX processor is for high performance computing, they didn't say the 74XX, denoting G4 class processos. Motorola has taken out the 7500 designation that was previously used to denote the G5 class desktop process,</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, there's no doubt that Apple will use G5's in the future - but not this year. Only when its clock speed pulls ahead of that of the G4 will the G5 become the standard chip for Apple - and that's not going to be until the middle of 2003.
G4's will be at 1.5GHz in September, and 2Ghz by the end of the 1st quarter of 2003. I think that will be the last iteration of G4 that Apple uses - so we're talking at the earliest Summer 2003 for G5.
And you know what? It doesn't matter. Intel is struggling to push Pentium 4 much beyond 2.2GHz, and its next generation of chips is a disaster area. I can't see Intel getting much beyond 2.8GHz by the time PowerPC reaches 2GHz+, which means the clock speed difference will be majorly shrinking - and the Mac's performance advantage will be set in stone.
<strong>And you know what? It doesn't matter. Intel is struggling to push Pentium 4 much beyond 2.2GHz, and its next generation of chips is a disaster area. I can't see Intel getting much beyond 2.8GHz by the time PowerPC reaches 2GHz+, which means the clock speed difference will be majorly shrinking - and the Mac's performance advantage will be set in stone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
PIVs can easily break the 3GHz mark and AMDs hammer series will definitely be speedy if it meets expectations.
Sorry to break it to you but the PC world's processors aren't hitting an end to their MHz push they are really only just warming up.
As I said before, Apple needs faster G4s for use in future portables and iMacs. Just because the G4 can make it to 1.6 Ghz doesn't mean they will wait until the G4 maxes out to release the G5s. That just doesn't make sense. What would they put in the portables and iMacs then? For example, lets say the G5 starts at 1.2 to 1.6 Ghz in new PowerMacs this summer. At that point they could put a 1 Ghz G4 in the PowerBook and iMacs. Later when the G5 gets even faster they could put faster G4s in the rest of the line. This can continue until the G4 can go no further and they switch over entirely to the G5 or perhaps by then the G6 will be out for the PowerMacs. The point is, the G4 does not have to hit its speed limit before G5s are introduced.
Apple has to release the G5 soon, because otherwise like aaple.oktau wrote, the G4 will be used in the new iMacs rather than the PowerMacs because introducing the 800Mhz iMac in just insane if they don't intend to use the apollo for it soon.
This is because you have to have enough head room, for the iMac to have speed bumps for around 2 years.
As well as for saying the apollo is faster in Mhz at the moment than the G5, that is just nonsense, as the apollo is based upon the G5 core (10 pipelines etc), so don't you think that the G5 is much more scalable than the G4?? Of course it is, so it wouldn't be shocking to see at least a 1.8Ghz G5 in a few months.
Historically everything points to the G5 being ready before MacWorld NY.
Motorola has been putting out host versions of their processors BEFORE microcontroller versions (7540 before 8240, etc..).
The first microcontroller based on the e500 core (G5 architecture, see: <a href="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010522S0055)" target="_blank">http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010522S0055)</a> is due shortly. Given the differences between the G4 and G5, the two chips must have had very concurrent development schedules, so it is not a .18µm SOI G4 then .15µm SOI G4 before .13µm SOI G5. Those come from separate fabs running at separate paces. The G4 and G5 come from different production lines.
July seems like a long ways away. If there is something going on (such as a G5 machine being prepped), Apple is going to work harder than they ever have to control the inforomation flow. All this speculation with only bits and pieces of information only builds the overall excitement level. Steve loves this stuff you know he does. He'll let this and other forums churn and burn right up until the event if he can. I somehow doubt they will use a disinformation tactic (ie. iWalk) this time. Just painful silence.
"Historically everything points to the G5 being ready before MacWorld NY." <hr></blockquote>
Also from EE Times
Apple debuts lamp-like iMac as consumer digital hub
By Rick Merritt
"The company also held off adopting G5 PowerPCs made in a 0.13-micron process. Those chips will sport a longer pipeline and hit speeds up to 1.4 GHz, but are not expected to be available in volume from Motorola until midyear."
The link may not work, so go to <a href="http://WWW.eetimes.com"; target="_blank">WWW.eetimes.com</a>
do a search for G5 and you'll find the article.
If the G5 will not be available until midyear, whatever that means(June/July). Will that be enough time for Apple to recieve the chips, do any final testing, and manufacture computers and announce it @ MWNY?
Comments
It has been well documented that what has actually happened in the past 20 years is that the right has moved farther to the right, the center and left has stayed pretty much the same. So, from the vantage point of the right, the center looks much farther away (left) than it used to.
The "fiscal" or "moderate" republican has all but disappeared. The democratic party is almost completely run by centrists. There was a push early on by anti-abortionists, christian fundamentalists to take over the lower levels of the party.
As for a liberal bias to the news I have to say, as a liberal, that the mass market news is not at all liberal. 95% of radio talk shows are conservative (including all of AM radio). Most newspaper editorial sections are either centrist or conservative.
<strong>Perhaps they removed it from the roadmap to help Apple and their secrecy plans.</strong><hr></blockquote>
From some Motorola guy in an article on Maccentral...
"In working with them [Apple], we had to be sure that we didn't steal Apple's thunder. When a customer is as strategic and important as Apple, we don't mind helping their publicity efforts," said Swearingen.
You do not have to get the last word in.
hey wwwork, come to appleoutsider, we need some well rounded, reasoning individuals over there. come on!!!
So far, it looks like Apollo, smells like Apollo, and probably is Apollo.
choice quotes from ATAT:
[quote]New Buffy! New Buffy! Oh, thank heaven... we didn't think we'd make it. Just another 86 minutes to go...
(snip)
Rest assured, though, those 800 MHz, 933 MHz, and 1 GHz chips shipping in Apple's latest pro desktops are indeed Apollos, at least according to Will Swearingen, Motorola's Director of Strategic Communications, as quoted by MacCentral.
(snip)
Because if history is any indication, whatever it was is probably going to wind up at the heart of an Apple product roughly a year from now, right? Thus, we spent a little time digging around for clues, and came up with this: an official Motorola press release from MPF2001 describing the MPC8540, the company's "first e500 integrated host processor to employ RapidIO interconnect technology." Apparently it's a "Book E"-based PowerPC chip that will run between 600 MHz and 1 GHz and was "designed for high-speed networking applications" and other "embedded market" uses, such as "communications, automotive, and consumer applications."
So there you have it, folks: come Macworld Expo San Francisco 2003, we'll all be gaping in awe as Steve takes the wraps off Apple's first high-performance router. Or maybe a line of digital-hub kitchen appliances, or possibly a car. But you can be sure that whatever it is, it'll have an e500 at its core and not a G5, because history always repeats itself. Without fail. Yup.<hr></blockquote>
Straight from the horses mouth at Moto:
<a href="http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.motorola.php"; target="_blank">http://maccentral.macworld.com/news/0201/29.motorola.php</a>;
Anyway, anyone STILL believe we'll see an e500/85xx/G5/whatever before 1/2003?
Seems the last three proccies were revealed in Octoober, then 15 months later released.....Anyone know of anything Moto hyped LAST October?
Hint: It rhymes with "matey-five morty"
SdA, aka SdC
SDA
[ 01-30-2002: Message edited by: suckfuldotagain ]</p>
Anyway, since this Apollo is still at .18 microns, I think we'll see a .15 micron Apollo by MWNY. Combined with the natural maturation process, I'd be willing to bet that 1.4-1.6 GHz G4 is not unreasonable by then.
I'm still very interested to know who's gotta make the next move to get DDR: Apple's mobo or Moto's chip. And since they waited so long, how about just skipping straight to 333 (166x2) DDR?
SDA
There will be a G5 this year, if not I will buy Suckfuldotcom an iPod....Oh wait, we already agreed to that.
I just think there has to be a new chip on the horizon. Especially with the release of Apollo and the fact it really doesn't support anything new, it's just faster. Apple has to increase the bus speed, move to faster RAM and make a few other overall system enhancements. Since it's not in the Apollo and their are no future G4 variations (that we're aware of) in the pipeline, I have to assume G5 (or some super top secret program no one else is aware of).
<img src="graemlins/smokin.gif" border="0" alt="[Chilling]" />
<strong>Well the Motorola site says the 7XXX processor is for high performance computing, they didn't say the 74XX, denoting G4 class processos. Motorola has taken out the 7500 designation that was previously used to denote the G5 class desktop process,</strong><hr></blockquote>
Oh, there's no doubt that Apple will use G5's in the future - but not this year. Only when its clock speed pulls ahead of that of the G4 will the G5 become the standard chip for Apple - and that's not going to be until the middle of 2003.
G4's will be at 1.5GHz in September, and 2Ghz by the end of the 1st quarter of 2003. I think that will be the last iteration of G4 that Apple uses - so we're talking at the earliest Summer 2003 for G5.
And you know what? It doesn't matter. Intel is struggling to push Pentium 4 much beyond 2.2GHz, and its next generation of chips is a disaster area. I can't see Intel getting much beyond 2.8GHz by the time PowerPC reaches 2GHz+, which means the clock speed difference will be majorly shrinking - and the Mac's performance advantage will be set in stone.
<strong>And you know what? It doesn't matter. Intel is struggling to push Pentium 4 much beyond 2.2GHz, and its next generation of chips is a disaster area. I can't see Intel getting much beyond 2.8GHz by the time PowerPC reaches 2GHz+, which means the clock speed difference will be majorly shrinking - and the Mac's performance advantage will be set in stone.</strong><hr></blockquote>
PIVs can easily break the 3GHz mark and AMDs hammer series will definitely be speedy if it meets expectations.
Sorry to break it to you but the PC world's processors aren't hitting an end to their MHz push they are really only just warming up.
This is because you have to have enough head room, for the iMac to have speed bumps for around 2 years.
As well as for saying the apollo is faster in Mhz at the moment than the G5, that is just nonsense, as the apollo is based upon the G5 core (10 pipelines etc), so don't you think that the G5 is much more scalable than the G4?? Of course it is, so it wouldn't be shocking to see at least a 1.8Ghz G5 in a few months.
[ 02-01-2002: Message edited by: mattyj ]</p>
Motorola has been putting out host versions of their processors BEFORE microcontroller versions (7540 before 8240, etc..).
The first microcontroller based on the e500 core (G5 architecture, see: <a href="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010522S0055)" target="_blank">http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20010522S0055)</a> is due shortly. Given the differences between the G4 and G5, the two chips must have had very concurrent development schedules, so it is not a .18µm SOI G4 then .15µm SOI G4 before .13µm SOI G5. Those come from separate fabs running at separate paces. The G4 and G5 come from different production lines.
"Historically everything points to the G5 being ready before MacWorld NY." <hr></blockquote>
Also from EE Times
Apple debuts lamp-like iMac as consumer digital hub
By Rick Merritt
"The company also held off adopting G5 PowerPCs made in a 0.13-micron process. Those chips will sport a longer pipeline and hit speeds up to 1.4 GHz, but are not expected to be available in volume from Motorola until midyear."
<a href="http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020108S0030"; target="_blank">http://www.eetimes.com/story/OEG20020108S0030</a>;
The link may not work, so go to <a href="http://WWW.eetimes.com"; target="_blank">WWW.eetimes.com</a>
do a search for G5 and you'll find the article.
If the G5 will not be available until midyear, whatever that means(June/July). Will that be enough time for Apple to recieve the chips, do any final testing, and manufacture computers and announce it @ MWNY?
[ 02-06-2002: Message edited by: rickag ]</p>