Windows XP is scaleable as well -- that's why Microsoft sells XP Embedded --- whether that does the job is another thing. All the other "real" mobile OS'es were designed to scale down to kilobytes of memory. Apple has to license an OS from a 3rd party for the ipod --- because OSX can't scale down that low.
I'm not sure why you bring XP into this. Windows is carrying around 25 years of legacy baggage its useless in the mobile space. Windows Mobile is not based on XP. The Zune doesn't use XP. The XBox doesn't use XP.
I don't think Apple is in a race to scale OS X down to kilobytes. The purpose of it is to bring desktop class API's and apps to mobile devices. Those other "real mobile OS'" do not deliver the same performance.
It took some time in development, but Apple does have OS X on an iPod. OS X is used on the iPod Touch, the iPhone, and Apple TV.
Quote:
Higher speed CPU and bigger memory --- means that Apple's iphone OS is slow.
This makes absolutely no sense. None at all.
Quote:
For 20 years, Mac users have been saying that they didn't really lose the Mhz war --- because they have better OS'es than Microsoft --- so they don't need faster CPU's to achieve the same thing. I still remember my Mac SE/30 with a giant Radius 2 page greyscale monitor. Now it's the other way around, the other mobile OS'es are built for cell phones and can use slower CPU with fewer memory.
Its true that MHz don't tell the entire tale of processor performance. PowerPC is an inherently better architecture than the aging x86. 2GHz Core processors out perform the previous generation 3GHz Pentium 4 processors.
No one said it did but the N82 can out perform the iPhone in the basic of TELEPHONY functions. Can you send more than one SMS at a time? Can you do a VoIP call? How about taking an SMS received and converting that to a phone number? How about storing files to send later as vCards (the industry standard)? These very simple things I detailed are important in a biz phone and included in ALL smart phones. The iPhone can do NONE of these. Not one. Now with Skype VoIP is possible but your phone has to be jailbroken to do even this simple thing.
You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.
Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that.
Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.
Quote:
My iPod Touch can't do any of these except use Skype but then again it was designed as an iPod, not and iPhone.
Why do you have a Nokia N82, an iPod Touch, and an iPhone?
There are actually several articles that say Europeans don't pay full price for phones.
For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.
Quote:
You are not the first to declare an Apple product doomed. Its actually quite a cliche. I'm surprised you said it.
Unless you missed the big announcement active sync is coming. We will have to wait to see how it does.
Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.
Quote:
What is the definition of a " real smartphone"?
This is subjective of course but take a peek here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone. Like the article says: "there is no industry standard". However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.
Quote:
You keep calling the iPhone an iPod. You need to stop that. It makes you sound quite uninformed. The iPod is one of 17 apps that come with the iPhone. Studies have shown Mail app, Safari, and the phone app are used more than the iPod app.
I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.
Quote:
I care less about a long feature list as I care about the quality and usability of the features.
Fair enough, but for what the iPhone does, it does well, except in the telephony department and this is the crux of my argument all along.
Quote:
You really need to stop. You don't know what you are talking about.
Currently no shipping desktop browser engine fully supports HTML 5.
The S60 browser on your N82 based on the WebKit engine certainly does not support it because WebKit does not yet fully support it.
I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.
Quote:
This is all your subjective opinion. You may think highly of your opinion, but don't confuse it for facts.
Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.
You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.
It should prove that one phone performs functions better than the other. That is pretty obvious, and a better buy.
[Quote]Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that. {/Quote]
I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.
Quote:
Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.
True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.
Quote:
Why do you have a Nokia N82, an iPod Touch, and an iPhone?
Well:
1. I work for the State Department and test things
2. I like devices
3. I can afford to buy almost anything I want. (gadget wise that is)
The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.
Read the first three paragraphs of the first link. I did not even bother with the second link. When Apple can surpass Nokia, then you have my interest. Unless Apple adapts to the world outside of the US, the iPhone will continue to fail. Your argument is similar to those who continue to think that football (soccer) will never be popular until it is adopted by Americans. 3 plus Billion (with a B) will disagree with you. Apple thought the same tactics that applied in the US will fly over in Europe. The fact remains that for the most part, European phone subscribers are generally more evolved and sophisticated in terms of functionality, usages, services, etc... than their American counterparts. Apple missed this fact and now it has come back to bite them.
Game, set, match: Nokia.
Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated. Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success. Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air. People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.
Can you receive pictures from every other cellphone that sends them to you easily? -NO!
Can you get an iPhone without a data package- NO!
WHy?
Was your phone showed on the Oscars ? No
Does your phone have the highest consumer satisfaction rating ? No
Is your phone the most used phone for mobile browsing ? No
Is your phone the best media player ? No
Does your phone have the best user interface ? No
Why, please tell me ?
Go and ask anybody in the public what an N95 is and see what they'll tell you, then ask then what an iphone is, chances are they know what an iphone is.
I've worked for apples european sales for three years, and i live in ireland, coming from the uk
I can tell you now 2 things:-
1) Jobs arrogance cannot be over stated. He believes in his vision, its US centric to an insulting degree, and if he comes across something he does not like, it is steam rolled over, or forgotten about.
2) Secondly, i base a phone's sucess on how often i see that phone. Three years ago, i bought a razr (its a piece of crap, but it looked cool), it was pretty pricey at the time, especially since contracts were not a big thing in Ireland, or the UK, but within a few months, i had seen that phone everywhere.
Fast forward a few months since the iphone was launched. I see that phone NOWHERE. No one i know, has one, no one they know has one. Reason being -
1) Weak tech
2) More importantly the price. Most people have said, nice, really like it, but i am not paying that amount of money.
The iphone is TOTALLY over priced, and it is NOT being adopted by the UK or Ireland (especially in Ireland, where we are forced to over pay by ridiculous amounts, and we dont even get visual voicemail)
To all the apple fanboys, grow up. The iphone is NOT a success in Europe at all.
In Germany they have cut it down to 99 euros, in the UK, they have halved the price.
Quite simply, Jobs looked at the european market, compared it to America, realized he couldn't make the same amount of money, but STILL decided to FORCE his plan down the European throat. Greedy companies leapt in behind him, and now the whole process is BARELY moving.
I have no doubt the iphone type device could succeed. But apple need to wise up, and stop ripping people off.
Right now, without a contract, the iphone could have been THE most popular handset in Europe.
Its not. Its not going to be either. In short, its failing.
I haven't seen a Nokia N95 in public before so I guess it's also a failure.
Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated.
This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.
Quote:
Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success.
You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.
Quote:
Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air.
On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.
Quote:
People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.
I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.
This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.
I actually have travelled quite extensively, than you, very much. So you are willing to make excuses for Nokia's failures here in America but don't want to make any excuses for Apple. It's good that you've acknowledge that Nokia hasn't been a success here in North America where I live, compared to how the fare in Europe.
Quote:
You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.
So that's the reason it's a failure, do you work at Apple to know what their goals are for the iphone, last time I checked Apple has set only 1 goal and that is to sell 10 million units in 2008 and the year ain't over. How can a phone which is the number 1 mobile browser in the USA, number 2 in the world, and has the highest consumer satisfaction ratings be a failure. Why are so many other companies trying to copy a phone that is a failure, why does it get so much media attention, or is Apple paying for all that attention
Quote:
On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.
So the products that you don't like are failures right, okay I get your drift.
Quote:
I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.
What does this article have to do with why I haven't seen an N95 in public, heck I doubt anybody on the streets even knows what the heck it is.
From the: New Oxford American Dictionary
unsophisticated |ˌənsəˈfistəˌkātid|
adjective
lacking refined worldly knowledge or tastes. See note at gullible .
• not complicated or highly developed; basic
I guess you are living the dream.
By the way, there are many here that present a pretty good debate, one of them being JeffDM. I can appreciate his point of view and I have no problem when he might find a point I have missed or am out right incorrect. He presents a good, non-fanboy argument. I would say he is very sophisticated.
I actually have travelled quite extensively, than you, very much.
Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".
I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.
Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.
Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".
I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.
Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.
I guess you must know me to know how much I've travelled.
For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.
For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.
Quote:
Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.
Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.
Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year.
Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.
Quote:
I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.
Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.
Quote:
The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.
How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.
Quote:
However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.
This is your definition of a smartphone.
You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.
Quote:
I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.
You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.
There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.
O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.
Quote:
I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.
I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?
Quote:
True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.
Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.
Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.
Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.
Quote:
Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.
What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.
You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.
For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.
Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.
Quote:
Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.
Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.
[Quote]Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year. [/Quote}
This means they had 30 years of experience to look at and still missed the mark. Sort to makes them look either very stupid or very arrogant. The truth is somewhere in between.
Quote:
Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.
We are going into Tangentville here. I did not once say what was there is not pleasant or nice eye candy. My comments have to do with telephony features.
Quote:
Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.
You are correct. I have been using another client and did not even bother to check this. Thanks for the tip. Only took 3 or 4 upgrades to do something basic but okay. It is a start. I stand corrected.
Quote:
How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.
In my current capacity with State, I do not need to make VoIP calls (I have an unlimited plan here in Finland and use my N82 for the heavy lifting) or send multiple SMS to co-workers. For the most part, I just make and receive calls. I do use the iPod function much, much more.
Quote:
This is your definition of a smartphone.
This one of many definitions of a smartphone. If you read the article I posted, you will notice that there is no fast and furious definition. I guess it would be subjective at best.
Quote:
You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.
I would say my multiple years of living in several countries for several years gives me a better understanding of different cultures than most Americans for sure.
Quote:
You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.
These are webapps. Not native. Meaning what? I have to constantly be connected to some sort of data access. I want native apps and yes they are coming, and in most cases they are here thanks to 3rd party developers.
Quote:
There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.
See above....
Quote:
O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.
Sorry if I do not buy the O2 story. They have probably the worse network in Europe. The worse coverage. Many of those same O2 customers have an additional phone as well. There was an article on ilounge.com that mentioned this. (Not exactly sure if it was iLounge, but this was noted a few weeks ago.)
Quote:
I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?
I did acknowledge that I fired off a general answer. Was that not good enough? My default answer for the iPhone is that it is more iPod than phone. Feel free to insert this whenever and where ever you need.
Quote:
Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.
Part of this is my right as a paying customer. I can do whatever I want with my phone. Second, each statement you exhibit further illustrates that this is your first "high-end" phone. Well, for me, my days go back to the first Nokia Communicator, the Ericsson R380, and so on. I am used to having more than just a pretty UI.
Quote:
Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.
If you play golf, I will give you a Mulligan. You really should have thought this one out. No other phone manufacture has to. All of their apps are native to the phone. Symbian have probably 3k or 4k apps already that work pretty darn well. You are correct Sir, no other phone manufacture had to because the apps could be installed on the phone.
Quote:
Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.
See above again........
Quote:
What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.
Who is confused is also subjective. In my mind, you are simply one of the koolaid drinkers that is not really knowledgeable about usable feature packed phones. I think the word I used was unsophisticated. Who knows. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.
Quote:
You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.
I think you just answered my question. Oh well tomorrow is a new day and with that comes new adventures.
Just so that we are on the same sheet of music. Where is this eventually going to go? What is the end game. We are going round and round. I have my opinion and you have yours. Fair enough. I have my feelings about the iPhone. You can't change that as your arguments are not strong enough, and I can't change your mind as well. Same with my arguments.
Comments
Windows XP is scaleable as well -- that's why Microsoft sells XP Embedded --- whether that does the job is another thing. All the other "real" mobile OS'es were designed to scale down to kilobytes of memory. Apple has to license an OS from a 3rd party for the ipod --- because OSX can't scale down that low.
I'm not sure why you bring XP into this. Windows is carrying around 25 years of legacy baggage its useless in the mobile space. Windows Mobile is not based on XP. The Zune doesn't use XP. The XBox doesn't use XP.
I don't think Apple is in a race to scale OS X down to kilobytes. The purpose of it is to bring desktop class API's and apps to mobile devices. Those other "real mobile OS'" do not deliver the same performance.
It took some time in development, but Apple does have OS X on an iPod. OS X is used on the iPod Touch, the iPhone, and Apple TV.
Higher speed CPU and bigger memory --- means that Apple's iphone OS is slow.
This makes absolutely no sense. None at all.
For 20 years, Mac users have been saying that they didn't really lose the Mhz war --- because they have better OS'es than Microsoft --- so they don't need faster CPU's to achieve the same thing. I still remember my Mac SE/30 with a giant Radius 2 page greyscale monitor. Now it's the other way around, the other mobile OS'es are built for cell phones and can use slower CPU with fewer memory.
Its true that MHz don't tell the entire tale of processor performance. PowerPC is an inherently better architecture than the aging x86. 2GHz Core processors out perform the previous generation 3GHz Pentium 4 processors.
No one said it did but the N82 can out perform the iPhone in the basic of TELEPHONY functions. Can you send more than one SMS at a time? Can you do a VoIP call? How about taking an SMS received and converting that to a phone number? How about storing files to send later as vCards (the industry standard)? These very simple things I detailed are important in a biz phone and included in ALL smart phones. The iPhone can do NONE of these. Not one. Now with Skype VoIP is possible but your phone has to be jailbroken to do even this simple thing.
You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.
Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that.
Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.
My iPod Touch can't do any of these except use Skype but then again it was designed as an iPod, not and iPhone.
Why do you have a Nokia N82, an iPod Touch, and an iPhone?
I actually missed this post.
There are actually several articles that say Europeans don't pay full price for phones.
For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.
You are not the first to declare an Apple product doomed. Its actually quite a cliche. I'm surprised you said it.
Unless you missed the big announcement active sync is coming. We will have to wait to see how it does.
Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.
What is the definition of a " real smartphone"?
This is subjective of course but take a peek here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smartphone. Like the article says: "there is no industry standard". However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.
You keep calling the iPhone an iPod. You need to stop that. It makes you sound quite uninformed. The iPod is one of 17 apps that come with the iPhone. Studies have shown Mail app, Safari, and the phone app are used more than the iPod app.
I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.
I care less about a long feature list as I care about the quality and usability of the features.
Fair enough, but for what the iPhone does, it does well, except in the telephony department and this is the crux of my argument all along.
You really need to stop. You don't know what you are talking about.
Currently no shipping desktop browser engine fully supports HTML 5.
The S60 browser on your N82 based on the WebKit engine certainly does not support it because WebKit does not yet fully support it.
I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.
This is all your subjective opinion. You may think highly of your opinion, but don't confuse it for facts.
Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.
Some further info: http://discussions.europe.nokia.com/...hread.id=88083. It is a bit cheeky but if you put aside the smart-alec-ness the truth is somewhere in there.
You can hang a long laundry list of what any phone cannot do that some other phone can do better. What does this prove.
It should prove that one phone performs functions better than the other. That is pretty obvious, and a better buy.
[Quote]Actually you can now send multiple SMS messages. If you have an iPhone like you claim you should know that. {/Quote]
I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.
Many of the features you list can easily be added in software.
True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.
Why do you have a Nokia N82, an iPod Touch, and an iPhone?
Well:
1. I work for the State Department and test things
2. I like devices
3. I can afford to buy almost anything I want. (gadget wise that is)
The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.
Read the first three paragraphs of the first link. I did not even bother with the second link. When Apple can surpass Nokia, then you have my interest. Unless Apple adapts to the world outside of the US, the iPhone will continue to fail. Your argument is similar to those who continue to think that football (soccer) will never be popular until it is adopted by Americans. 3 plus Billion (with a B) will disagree with you. Apple thought the same tactics that applied in the US will fly over in Europe. The fact remains that for the most part, European phone subscribers are generally more evolved and sophisticated in terms of functionality, usages, services, etc... than their American counterparts. Apple missed this fact and now it has come back to bite them.
Game, set, match: Nokia.
Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated. Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success. Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air. People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.
Can you watch broadcast TV on an iPhone- NO!
Can you receive pictures from every other cellphone that sends them to you easily? -NO!
Can you get an iPhone without a data package- NO!
WHy?
Was your phone showed on the Oscars ? No
Does your phone have the highest consumer satisfaction rating ? No
Is your phone the most used phone for mobile browsing ? No
Is your phone the best media player ? No
Does your phone have the best user interface ? No
Why, please tell me ?
Go and ask anybody in the public what an N95 is and see what they'll tell you, then ask then what an iphone is, chances are they know what an iphone is.
I've worked for apples european sales for three years, and i live in ireland, coming from the uk
I can tell you now 2 things:-
1) Jobs arrogance cannot be over stated. He believes in his vision, its US centric to an insulting degree, and if he comes across something he does not like, it is steam rolled over, or forgotten about.
2) Secondly, i base a phone's sucess on how often i see that phone. Three years ago, i bought a razr (its a piece of crap, but it looked cool), it was pretty pricey at the time, especially since contracts were not a big thing in Ireland, or the UK, but within a few months, i had seen that phone everywhere.
Fast forward a few months since the iphone was launched. I see that phone NOWHERE. No one i know, has one, no one they know has one. Reason being -
1) Weak tech
2) More importantly the price. Most people have said, nice, really like it, but i am not paying that amount of money.
The iphone is TOTALLY over priced, and it is NOT being adopted by the UK or Ireland (especially in Ireland, where we are forced to over pay by ridiculous amounts, and we dont even get visual voicemail)
To all the apple fanboys, grow up. The iphone is NOT a success in Europe at all.
In Germany they have cut it down to 99 euros, in the UK, they have halved the price.
Quite simply, Jobs looked at the european market, compared it to America, realized he couldn't make the same amount of money, but STILL decided to FORCE his plan down the European throat. Greedy companies leapt in behind him, and now the whole process is BARELY moving.
I have no doubt the iphone type device could succeed. But apple need to wise up, and stop ripping people off.
Right now, without a contract, the iphone could have been THE most popular handset in Europe.
Its not. Its not going to be either. In short, its failing.
I haven't seen a Nokia N95 in public before so I guess it's also a failure.
http://www.technewsworld.com/story/T...ple-62661.html
Hey buddy stop trying to change the subject, your Nokia is struggling in the US and Canada and instead of addressing the issue, you want to divert the topic. Why doesn't Nokia adapt for this market, my market, shows that every company has problems even heavyweights in the mobile industry like Nokia. Nokia thought that their tactics in Europe and other parts of the world would win over the market in America and it didn't work out. Is Nokia as successful in America as they are in other parts of the world. You also don't have to come and insult us Americans by calling us unsophisticated.
This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.
Nothing has come back to bite Apple, you Nokia fanatics have been here diminishing the iphone from day 1, you said it would be a failure, a flop whatever but when the iphone started to succeed you started changing your tune and saying they aren't selling as many phones in Europe, the world as Nokia. Well how is Nokia doing in North America, why aren't they experiencing the same level of success.
You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.
Truth is Apple has waken up the mobile phone industry and given attention to it after years of mediocre phones that were based on putting in as much features as possible, Apple has made user experience their priority and it shows in the number of iphone users who are satisified with phone. The media is now starting to focus attention on the Apple and the iphone and it's shifting away from your Nokias and you lot just can't handle. When Apple enter a market they generate excitement in the segment, look at what the ipod did, the iphone, even the macbook air.
On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.
People started to get excited about the segments after Apple entered, and you can't take that, so you here spewing nonsense. I guess it's Apple's fault that people love their products, you can continue putting down the iphone all you want.
I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.
I haven't seen a Nokia N95 in public before so I guess it's also a failure.
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3770932.ece
This is where my "get a passport and travel" argument comes in. If you had bothered to read rather than post blindly, you would see that I said that I am an American working for the State Department, currently living over seas. Next time I will include Power Points and pictures for you. Anyway, as several articles have been posted here, Nokia initially did not have the phones designed for the US market, i.e. different 3G standards, EVO, etc.... They are producing them now and once in the pipe, they should be able to compete with BB, Sanyo and the other players.
I actually have travelled quite extensively, than you, very much. So you are willing to make excuses for Nokia's failures here in America but don't want to make any excuses for Apple. It's good that you've acknowledge that Nokia hasn't been a success here in North America where I live, compared to how the fare in Europe.
You don't call massive price reductions and slumping sales as possible failure? Please, please do not say you are in charge of your companies finances. The truth is, the iPhone is great as a music player/media player (to include Internet), but as a phone, it is a failure. That is unless you are content to call, hang up, send one SMS per person. Here, the iPhone excels.
So that's the reason it's a failure, do you work at Apple to know what their goals are for the iphone, last time I checked Apple has set only 1 goal and that is to sell 10 million units in 2008 and the year ain't over. How can a phone which is the number 1 mobile browser in the USA, number 2 in the world, and has the highest consumer satisfaction ratings be a failure. Why are so many other companies trying to copy a phone that is a failure, why does it get so much media attention, or is Apple paying for all that attention
On this we can agree but once the hype wears off, people see the products for what they are. iPod (in my opinion, their best device), MacBook Air : toaster oven over the amount of heat it generates. Maybe the second gen will be worth buying. iPhone: iPod with phone.
So the products that you don't like are failures right, okay I get your drift.
I love my iPods, and am even fond of my iPhone but only as a device to play my media. As a phone, it has miles and miles to go. Sorry if you have not been exposed to higher end devices. See my mention of getting a passport and traveling.
Right
http://business.timesonline.co.uk/to...cle3770932.ece
What does this article have to do with why I haven't seen an N95 in public, heck I doubt anybody on the streets even knows what the heck it is.
What does this article have to do with why I haven't seen an N95 in public, heck I doubt anybody on the streets even knows what the heck it is.
From the: New Oxford American Dictionary
unsophisticated |ˌənsəˈfistəˌkātid|
adjective
lacking refined worldly knowledge or tastes. See note at gullible .
• not complicated or highly developed; basic
I guess you are living the dream.
By the way, there are many here that present a pretty good debate, one of them being JeffDM. I can appreciate his point of view and I have no problem when he might find a point I have missed or am out right incorrect. He presents a good, non-fanboy argument. I would say he is very sophisticated.
I actually have travelled quite extensively, than you, very much.
Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".
I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.
Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.
Really. When you are on your 3rd passport in less than 2 years come see me. Canada and Mexico do not really count at "traveling".
I did not bother with the rest of your posts as you have not said anything really important in the first place.
Actually you did make a statement this is well typical. Nokia doesn't have many phones for the fragmented US market and they did say that they will start to introduce them. This is not an excuse but a fact. Check the dictionary to see the difference.
I guess you must know me to know how much I've travelled.
I guess you must know me to know how much I've travelled.
You made the assumption that you traveled more than me. Not the other way around. See post #192.
You seem to do that quite a bit. Mix things up, turn things around. This seems to be pathological with you.
You made the assumption that you traveled more than me. Not the other way around. See post #192.
You seem to do that quite a bit. Mix things up, turn things around. This seems to be pathological with you.
I never said such thing and the word in post 192 is "thank".
For unlocked, unsubsidized phones, they do. There are plenty of contracts that offer bungles but for the most part people want the freedom come and go as they please.
For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.
Doomed my be a bit strong and retract this to a point. I will say that it will be challenged to sell as well as the shine has worn off. Right now, the E-Series Nokia phones have had Outlook, Blackberry support for quite some time. As this was a software implentation, there is no reason at all that Apple missed this.
Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.
Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year.
Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.
I meant, sending one message to multiple recipients at the same time rather than one at a time. I can now as my iPhone is jail broken. I use Weiphone and it is a better client than the one that comes with the iPhone.
Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.
The N82 is my daily everyday phone (I mentioned this in this thread). My iPod Touch was a gift and now resides with my daughter. My iPhone is my work phone and either comes to me with work or sits in a draw somewhere. Once the iPhone gets to the level I consider to be a real device touting real telephony features, I will consider it more than a "niche" device.
How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.
However, from a European prospective smartphones are generally phones that can be utilized as an extension of your work PC/Mac with the ability to send and receive files, send vCards, have OBEX support, etc... The iPhone has none of these functions. As a power user, I miss having these on the iPhone.
This is your definition of a smartphone.
You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.
I will take your word for this, but in my opinion and that of apparently many in Europe, the iPhone is simply an iPod with phoning capabilities.
You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.
There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.
O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.
I may have mispoke on the HTML 5. I was answering in genreal regarding the N82. If you say so about the HTMl 5, I will take your word for it.
I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?
True and 3rd party guys are doing it. No thanks to Apple on this.
Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.
Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.
Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.
Not subjective at all. I have laid out some facts about what the iPhone can and can not do. These are facts, not opinions. How people choose to use their iPhone is based no their needs. For me, as a power user, the iPhone is nothing more than an iPod with phone.
What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.
You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.
I never said such thing and the word in post 192 is "thank".
On my Mac, I am missing the "K".
For the most part once the 18 month contract is up they are free to take the phone were ever they want.
Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.
Apple doesn't need to support Outlook. They have their own email client. Apple has basically said why they wouldn't directly support BlackBerry.
Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.
[Quote]Its not fair to compare Nokia and Apple in that way. Nokia has been selling phones for nearly 30 years, while Apple is just in its first year. [/Quote}
This means they had 30 years of experience to look at and still missed the mark. Sort to makes them look either very stupid or very arrogant. The truth is somewhere in between.
Apple was not interested in simply stuffing lots of features into a phone. They want to take their time and grow the platform with features and apps that are of high quality, easy to use, and visually pleasing.
We are going into Tangentville here. I did not once say what was there is not pleasant or nice eye candy. My comments have to do with telephony features.
Yes you can, this feature was added in firmware 1.1.3.
You are correct. I have been using another client and did not even bother to check this. Thanks for the tip. Only took 3 or 4 upgrades to do something basic but okay. It is a start. I stand corrected.
How is the iPhone a work phone? You call it crippled non-enterprise phone that sits in a drawer.
In my current capacity with State, I do not need to make VoIP calls (I have an unlimited plan here in Finland and use my N82 for the heavy lifting) or send multiple SMS to co-workers. For the most part, I just make and receive calls. I do use the iPod function much, much more.
This is your definition of a smartphone.
This one of many definitions of a smartphone. If you read the article I posted, you will notice that there is no fast and furious definition. I guess it would be subjective at best.
You like to rant about how Americans don't understand Europeans. You sure feel comfortable being an American making defining statements about a content with 50 countries and over 700 million people.
I would say my multiple years of living in several countries for several years gives me a better understanding of different cultures than most Americans for sure.
You don't have to take my word for it. You only simply have look at the picture. Or in your case take your iPhone out of the drawer and use it. You will clearly see their are 16 other apps than the iPod.
These are webapps. Not native. Meaning what? I have to constantly be connected to some sort of data access. I want native apps and yes they are coming, and in most cases they are here thanks to 3rd party developers.
There are also over 1400 web apps and services built specifically for the iPhone. This list is growing by 100 a month.
See above....
O2 has said the iPhone is the most used device on their data network even to the point of straining their network. Looking at how the iPhone has taken a good chunk of the Europaen internet marketshare. This is solid proof that Europeans use the iPhone for more than an iPod.
Sorry if I do not buy the O2 story. They have probably the worse network in Europe. The worse coverage. Many of those same O2 customers have an additional phone as well. There was an article on ilounge.com that mentioned this. (Not exactly sure if it was iLounge, but this was noted a few weeks ago.)
I was speaking of HTML 5 features that will be coming to Safari. You said the N82 already does that. Is that just your default answer for everything?
I did acknowledge that I fired off a general answer. Was that not good enough? My default answer for the iPhone is that it is more iPod than phone. Feel free to insert this whenever and where ever you need.
Part of this is your impatience. Apple has said from the beginning they would continuously add features to the phone. And they have.
Part of this is my right as a paying customer. I can do whatever I want with my phone. Second, each statement you exhibit further illustrates that this is your first "high-end" phone. Well, for me, my days go back to the first Nokia Communicator, the Ericsson R380, and so on. I am used to having more than just a pretty UI.
Apple has created and is improving a web based development for the iPhone. The results are nearly 1500 web based applications and services. Something that no other phone manufacturer has done.
If you play golf, I will give you a Mulligan. You really should have thought this one out. No other phone manufacture has to. All of their apps are native to the phone. Symbian have probably 3k or 4k apps already that work pretty darn well. You are correct Sir, no other phone manufacture had to because the apps could be installed on the phone.
Apple is building a 3rd party platform based on desktop API infrastructure. This is something that no other phone manufacturer has done. Apple has said that this is a lot of work and they want to insure everything is right because they will be stuck with these API's for a long time.
See above again........
What the iPhone can or cannot do is a fact, yes. Which of these features are most useful is the subjective part. You confuse the two.
Who is confused is also subjective. In my mind, you are simply one of the koolaid drinkers that is not really knowledgeable about usable feature packed phones. I think the word I used was unsophisticated. Who knows. Maybe you are, maybe you aren't.
You describe yourself a power user huh? Most of the power users I've seen who really need to send multiple texts are 13 year olds.
I think you just answered my question. Oh well tomorrow is a new day and with that comes new adventures.
Just so that we are on the same sheet of music. Where is this eventually going to go? What is the end game. We are going round and round. I have my opinion and you have yours. Fair enough. I have my feelings about the iPhone. You can't change that as your arguments are not strong enough, and I can't change your mind as well. Same with my arguments.