Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.
Actually I'm confused as to what you are responding to and have no idea of what you are talking about.
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Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.
I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.
I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.
Thank you. I meant Exchange support.
How about this, if you have nothing really more to add to this, we can drop it. I have to concentrate on finishing something for tomorrow but I do not like to suddenly disappear from a discussion like so many around here do when they aren't making any points. I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.
Okay, here goes. Did I say that these were not good features? I was/am/wil be talking about telephony features
Tradeoffs? Really? Do you honestly have any experience with a high-end phone? I ask this seriously. These so called "rudimentary" features are basic in all devices sans the iPhone in all devices that claim to be phones. These tradeoffs are all software driven, minus the camera so your argument is baseless.
These other phones trade battery life, size or complexity for their features. The iPhone was designed as mobile computing device that anyone, even "just a phone" types, can use.
For some reason enthusiasts seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge this fundamental point. Features are useful if you can't figure out how to use them. The iPhone is being purchased in part, in my experience, by people that would have never considered such a device, had the iPhone not been available. IMO there is still vast upside in the iPhone market, almost entirely because of this. Civilians discovering that it's really not that hard to do the web and email and conference calling and media, etc.
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You can have them now if you do not mind jailbreaking you phone.
OK
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The "rudimentary" features are missing from the iPod Touch as well, but it is designed as an iPod, not a phone, so my argument still stands. Until the iPhone can perform: 1-4, and 6-7, it will remain an iPod with some phoning capabilities.
No, it is marketed as an iPod, because that suits Apple's channel strategy. It's designed as a mobile computing device, just like the iPhone, sans telephony features.
Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices? You know full well what else they're capable of. It seems like you just want to use the "just an iPod" as a cheap dismissal, but it really doesn't make any sense.
Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices?
My obsession is based solely on the telephony aspect of the iPhone. The media playing and computing features are great. No real complaints there. My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.
I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.
Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.
I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.
I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.
My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.
Here is an example of your unreasonable bias.
At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.
Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.
I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.
I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.
Let's throw out the travel, the passports, etc...... Let's just go on personal experience. Based on your posts, it seems as though the iPhone is your first really high-end phone. However, for me it isn't. I was one of the first users of the Nokia Communicator. I had the Ericsson R-380, the SE P-series phones, with various types in between. So to be honest, the iPhone is not overwhelming to me. It represents a more natural evolution than revolution. Sure the iPhone will be developed for the biz market, but as it currently stands, the iPhone is lacking, in terms of biz features, and in terms of most telephony features. This is a fact that you either do not want to admit because it would diminsh the iPhone in your eyes or you simply have not had enough experience with other products to make an informed comparison.
In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree. For the most part, I am okay with the iPhone. I use mine from time to time. In fact on the way in to work, I used it. I even bought a pair of Shure ES 530 heaphones that I use only with it, so I have made an investment. When used as a media device rather than a phone, I find very few devices that can match it for easy of use. I hope this clears things up.
At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.
Prove me wrong.
The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?
Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.
Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.
Speaking of unreasonable bias, can you point to me one post where you have said anything positive about a non-iPhone competitor? It would appear that in your myopathy, the only good phone in the world comes from Apple, but I know better. I have used plenty and currently compliment my iPhone with one of them.
The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?
Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.
Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.
As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.
The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.
We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.
As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.
Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.
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The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.
Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.
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We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.
I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.
Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.
Yep, as I said, I agree with you about the e-series v CURRENT iPhone but the feature list of the v2.0 software already announced pretty much puts it on a par with most of the business phones available.
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Originally Posted by sapporobaby
Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.
But that's not how the iPhone works. If you're in your chat software and it rings, it goes to the phone call and the application is asked to close down politely by the OS itself. The application, if written well, stores it's state and gets out of the way for Apple's own processes to rule. When you go back to the app, it can restore it's saved state so it looks like you never left. At least with some IM server implementations, just quitting the app does not log you off so the iPhone can just reconnect and pick up the missed messages and as long as you're not on your phone call for too long, the other party wouldn't know you're not online except maybe your tardiness in replying. I don't think it's a big deal although I can see how it might be an issue if you're both talking and IMing the same person at the same time.
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Originally Posted by sapporobaby
I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.
The P910i has been the most reliable and least crash prone phone I've ever come across. I had a P990 for a while and sent it back and reverted back to my P910i. Early SymbianOS 9 phones were terrible as they didn't have enough RAM (ahem Apple) to multitask whereas the older OS7 phones such as the P910i actually had less RAM but used 'Execute-in-place' so that the application ran in the space it was stored in on your flash card instead of having to load it into precious RAM. They dropped that method in OS9. Since the P990, they've added more RAM to most Symbian phones so for instance the P1i got 128MB of RAM (same as the iPhone) so it runs more applications before asking if you want to close one down. Note that there's one nasty exception - the N95. Nokia still only give 64MB of RAM in the N95. After you've got the OS loaded, it leaves you about 15MB of RAM free.
Apple should just stick another 128MB of RAM in the iPhone and kill off the silly no multitasking rule. I think it's a good idea that the OS asks the application to save it's state and quit when a call comes in or when you're running out of RAM like Symbian does, but I think there should still be a way of letting the app decide if it should do as it's told to.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme.
Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.
Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.
Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.
Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.
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Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.
Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.
Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.
Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.
Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.
LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!
Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.
LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!
.
Hey Mr. TBaggins,
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.
What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.
I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.
Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.
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iPhone sales are low because of 3G.
While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.
The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.
This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.
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iPhone sales are low because of missing features
Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.
The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.
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iPhone sales are poor in Europe
Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.
I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.
Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.
While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.
Oh, Teno's not a bad guy at all, he's just overly dedicated to the Apple party line and very stubborn.
I am starting to see some cracks in his armor though... I think he's finally getting how critical the 3G refresh is, that maybe Apple really isn't doing well in Europe (duh), and that it IS worrisome that Apple is so far behind pace to meet their 10 million goal.
Sometimes it takes awhile to bring ppl around. Though I'm sure T will always at least sip the Kool-aid, he may stop chugging it.
If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better.
The point you miss is that this is your opinion. As much as you may believe it, your opinion is not a fact.
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What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
Again this is TBaggins opinion. There is no evidence that this is the collective opinion of the mobile phone market at large.
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd.
Difficult to believe, but I do actually have a job and a life outside of AI.
Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.
I could be wrong but I think MR. Baggins is talking about how you defended to the end that the iPhone is not selling in well in Europe and how the goal posts continue to be moved in your arguments.
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What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.
If you say so but from the posts I have read from you, you tend to tow the party line, but if you feels your views have been misrepresented, fair enough. You are given benefit of the doubt by me.
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I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.
I think my "moving the goal posts" argument is valid here. Some things are good or bad, black or white. In my opinion, the iPhone is a great iPod with phone, but a bad phone with iPod. I am in favor of Apple doing better than it did because it is not that hard to do.
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Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.
It is apples and oranges to compare Europe to the US. One is a mature market while the other is maturing.
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While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.
Really? Not commonly used? How do people check their emails, or surf, or use the various chatting applications? Ever here of Fring, iSkoot, Truphone? These all run over wifi or 3G. You might be misunderstanding when they say 3G as in video-calls, but no one ( my guess completely) is making the conscience effort to manually switch off 3G in favor of straight GSM/GPRS data calls. No way. As you said it is ubiquitous and most people have no idea how they are connecting. The setting are automatic the moment you stick the card in the phone.
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The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.
Not sure I buy this. Can you post a link to this and how they arrived at this? I would be willing to bet that 3G phones are using as much data as EDGE networks. By the way, 3G settings are automatically input into the phone where as EDGE has to be manually entered or sent via the operator.
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This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.
Not sure what you mean here.
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Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.
I took part in this survey. I agree. Guess how I connect on my N82. I use HSDPA and connect at 7.2 mb/sec.
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The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.
Maybe not in the US, but those I have spoken to here in Europe see the iPhone as completely underwhelming in terms of what a biz user wants. They all agree that the media player aspect is without equal.
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Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.
Agreed, but Europeans are most so simplistic in terms of telephony. It takes more than a snazzy UI to impress.
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I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.
Apple did make some money. Not as much as they could have if they had a product that Europeans would purchase without a second thought. The operators were going to get those subscriptions regardless. People want phones and connections.
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Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.
This could be an example of people power. The Europeans said no to the price and they sat on the shelf. Finland told Apple no because of no 3G, but now my friends in Sonera say that they have had a visit from a certain "fruit" vender.
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While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.
Comments
Are you having a hard time understanding the difference between being forced to take and not wanting a time based subscription? You seem to be struggling with this.
Actually I'm confused as to what you are responding to and have no idea of what you are talking about.
Too bad most business have failed to jump on the Apple bandwagon with their mail support but right now much of the world uses Exchange. If Apple is too stupid to see this, so be it. It just goes to prove what others in this thread have said about Jobs (he who must not be named or made eye contact with) and his "I am right all the time" attitude.
I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.
I think you are confused. Outlook and Exchange are completely different. You don't need Outlook to use Exchange. Apple has licensed ActiceSync so that Apple Mail will sync with Exchange.
Thank you. I meant Exchange support.
How about this, if you have nothing really more to add to this, we can drop it. I have to concentrate on finishing something for tomorrow but I do not like to suddenly disappear from a discussion like so many around here do when they aren't making any points. I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.
Okay, here goes. Did I say that these were not good features? I was/am/wil be talking about telephony features
Tradeoffs? Really? Do you honestly have any experience with a high-end phone? I ask this seriously. These so called "rudimentary" features are basic in all devices sans the iPhone in all devices that claim to be phones. These tradeoffs are all software driven, minus the camera so your argument is baseless.
These other phones trade battery life, size or complexity for their features. The iPhone was designed as mobile computing device that anyone, even "just a phone" types, can use.
For some reason enthusiasts seem unwilling or unable to acknowledge this fundamental point. Features are useful if you can't figure out how to use them. The iPhone is being purchased in part, in my experience, by people that would have never considered such a device, had the iPhone not been available. IMO there is still vast upside in the iPhone market, almost entirely because of this. Civilians discovering that it's really not that hard to do the web and email and conference calling and media, etc.
You can have them now if you do not mind jailbreaking you phone.
OK
The "rudimentary" features are missing from the iPod Touch as well, but it is designed as an iPod, not a phone, so my argument still stands. Until the iPhone can perform: 1-4, and 6-7, it will remain an iPod with some phoning capabilities.
No, it is marketed as an iPod, because that suits Apple's channel strategy. It's designed as a mobile computing device, just like the iPhone, sans telephony features.
Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices? You know full well what else they're capable of. It seems like you just want to use the "just an iPod" as a cheap dismissal, but it really doesn't make any sense.
Why are you so obsessed with the iPod part of these devices?
My obsession is based solely on the telephony aspect of the iPhone. The media playing and computing features are great. No real complaints there. My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.
I think we summed it up. You have your opinion and I have mine. While we both my come from the US, we have different world views. I have no idea about your travel history, but I have been all over the world and have experiences to back up my opinions. With that being said, the ball is in your court.
Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.
I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.
I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.
My concerns deal with only the telephony side of the iPhone as well as some missing biz features. A few weeks back, everyone was saying the iPhone is ripe for biz users. This is a crock of crap. The iPhone is far from a biz phone.
Here is an example of your unreasonable bias.
At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.
Sure we can agree to disagree. I don't think the iPhone is necessarily for everyone. Its good we have choices.
I imagine I may not be as well travelled as you. But I don't think that makes much difference. We have open access to surveys and sale performances. That more clearly show what phones and features most people use. The reality often does not coincide with what people think.
I'll try to find it again. But there was a recent survey that found few people in Japan commonly use those advanced phone features that are so much touted.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme. You completely downplay the advantages and accomplishments of the iPhone. And over play the functions it doesn't currently do. Even functions that most people would never use in a consumer device.
Let's throw out the travel, the passports, etc...... Let's just go on personal experience. Based on your posts, it seems as though the iPhone is your first really high-end phone. However, for me it isn't. I was one of the first users of the Nokia Communicator. I had the Ericsson R-380, the SE P-series phones, with various types in between. So to be honest, the iPhone is not overwhelming to me. It represents a more natural evolution than revolution. Sure the iPhone will be developed for the biz market, but as it currently stands, the iPhone is lacking, in terms of biz features, and in terms of most telephony features. This is a fact that you either do not want to admit because it would diminsh the iPhone in your eyes or you simply have not had enough experience with other products to make an informed comparison.
In the end, we will simply have to agree to disagree. For the most part, I am okay with the iPhone. I use mine from time to time. In fact on the way in to work, I used it. I even bought a pair of Shure ES 530 heaphones that I use only with it, so I have made an investment. When used as a media device rather than a phone, I find very few devices that can match it for easy of use. I hope this clears things up.
Here is an example of your unreasonable bias.
At this point we know Apple is developing the iPhone for business. We don't yet completely know all of the details. It very well may be a strong competitor to the Black Berry.
Prove me wrong.
The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?
Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.
Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.
Speaking of unreasonable bias, can you point to me one post where you have said anything positive about a non-iPhone competitor? It would appear that in your myopathy, the only good phone in the world comes from Apple, but I know better. I have used plenty and currently compliment my iPhone with one of them.
Prove me wrong.
The iPhone is not a biz phone. Do you even have an idea of what a biz phone should or should not do?
Go to: www.nokia.co.uk and have a quick look at the E-series phones. These are biz phones. In comparison, the iPhone does not stand a chance.
Not to mention the iPhone does not have the ability to multi-task. Chatting is a big issue and benefit within the biz community but where is this on the iPhone, and what if you close the chat window, the session is lost. On any of the E or N series phones from Nokia, chatting while multi-tasking is possible. Is this still considered too biased or just another useful feature that the iPhone does not have.
As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.
The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.
We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.
As much as I agree with you about the e-Series v the current iPhone, Apple have announced most of the e-series features will be available in iPhone v2.0, so in that regard I think you're off base. They're missing Blackberry Connect support but they're nearly there on the feature comparison list. Editing office files might be useful too I guess before you can say it's a fully fledged business phone.
Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.
The 'no multitasking' rule is puzzling but I'd not bet on the next iPhone not having more RAM in it and that rule being relaxed. It's there for the crash test dummies that bought 1.0. It's also possible to work around too with IM apps - just save the session when the app flips off to something else and then restore it picking up new messages from the server when you go back. How that works with your online status I've no idea but it's at least possible to work around the multitasking rule.
Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.
We'll see when the new iPhone arrives as to if they've solved that for IM. I'm hoping the next iPhone solves these issues. At the minute I'm using a £59 (unlocked SIM free!) dual VoIP/GSM phone for two of my lines plus my old P910i still. It'd be nice to get back to one device for my three lines, so I really hope they add VoIP too as it would seem impossible with the 'no multitasking' rule that 3rd parties have to stick to.
I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.
Which feature list are we talking about? I am only talking about the current iPhone and currently the iPhone is far from being a biz phone no matter how much the others want it to be. It is simply a great media device with a phone.
Yep, as I said, I agree with you about the e-series v CURRENT iPhone but the feature list of the v2.0 software already announced pretty much puts it on a par with most of the business phones available.
Many IM apps have an online and offline mode message delivery system. It might be workable but not very practical in a "real-time" chat environment if someone had to close the window to take a call or even to change a song.
But that's not how the iPhone works. If you're in your chat software and it rings, it goes to the phone call and the application is asked to close down politely by the OS itself. The application, if written well, stores it's state and gets out of the way for Apple's own processes to rule. When you go back to the app, it can restore it's saved state so it looks like you never left. At least with some IM server implementations, just quitting the app does not log you off so the iPhone can just reconnect and pick up the missed messages and as long as you're not on your phone call for too long, the other party wouldn't know you're not online except maybe your tardiness in replying. I don't think it's a big deal although I can see how it might be an issue if you're both talking and IMing the same person at the same time.
I had one of those but SE simply could not sort out the software. It was a crash and burn machine for quite a bit.
The P910i has been the most reliable and least crash prone phone I've ever come across. I had a P990 for a while and sent it back and reverted back to my P910i. Early SymbianOS 9 phones were terrible as they didn't have enough RAM (ahem Apple) to multitask whereas the older OS7 phones such as the P910i actually had less RAM but used 'Execute-in-place' so that the application ran in the space it was stored in on your flash card instead of having to load it into precious RAM. They dropped that method in OS9. Since the P990, they've added more RAM to most Symbian phones so for instance the P1i got 128MB of RAM (same as the iPhone) so it runs more applications before asking if you want to close one down. Note that there's one nasty exception - the N95. Nokia still only give 64MB of RAM in the N95. After you've got the OS loaded, it leaves you about 15MB of RAM free.
Apple should just stick another 128MB of RAM in the iPhone and kill off the silly no multitasking rule. I think it's a good idea that the OS asks the application to save it's state and quit when a call comes in or when you're running out of RAM like Symbian does, but I think there should still be a way of letting the app decide if it should do as it's told to.
Within the iPhone conversation you are also overly biased to a ridiculous extreme.
Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.
Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.
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Teno, teno, teno... while I've come to like ya, you lovable knucklehead, you are the LAST person who should be calling anyone "biased".
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
It is very likely that Sapporo is biased towards his own point of view, but you calling him such is simply the pot calling the kettle black. After all, if bias was an Olympic sport, I'd just hand you the gold medal right now and be done with it.
Now, if you'd just ADMIT to your own bias, you'd be the coolest cat on the block.
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Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.
Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.
Great post Mr. TBaggins. Right on the mark. If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better. Sorry but in my opinion my N82 simply smokes the iPhone in terms of functionality and what a real smartphone/biz phone should be. As far as the UI is concerned, the iPhone wins hands down, but it all. Underneath, there is nothing really special. It is old has been, recycled technology. Teno's continued clinging to the "you are picking on Apple" argument clearly illustrates that the iPhone is really his first dip into the deep end of the pool. For the most part it is not his fault as the better and more advanced phones have been in Japan and Europe. So when something as flashy as the iPhone comes along, it initially appears impressive but the shine quickly fades when the real product emerges.
Anyway, it was a good discussion with Teno. I have no malice towards him. We just have different views on what constitutes real telephony features.
Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.
LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!
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Well, I can't completely agree with that POV either. While touchscreen phones have been in existence prior to the iPhone, the iPhone's multitouch UI is definitely a step ahead of anything that's come before. Ditto mobile Safari over competing mobile browsers. And, the damn thing runs OS X. All very good things.
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
The iPhone WILL be great, but right now, just seems so very much "a work in progress". I'm sure I'll be feeling a lot better about things come late June.
LOOK! Over there! THERE'S the missing iPhone features!!!
.
Hey Mr. TBaggins,
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.
In my many conversations with you and hundred of posts exchanged regarding the iPhone, you have very consistently been "biased" towards the 'kool-aid drinker' side of the ledger, and have followed the Apple party line with a vengeance. You also have displayed a tendency to ignore, repeatedly, any and all facts that do not fit your views.
Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.
What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.
I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.
Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.
iPhone sales are low because of 3G.
While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.
The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.
This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.
iPhone sales are low because of missing features
Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.
The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.
iPhone sales are poor in Europe
Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.
I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.
Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.
While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd. Anyway, with the newly released SDK, it appears that Apple may have gotten smart and hired some real telephony guys to help them sort things out. I may end up actually finding a real use for the iPhone after all.
Oh, Teno's not a bad guy at all, he's just overly dedicated to the Apple party line and very stubborn.
I am starting to see some cracks in his armor though... I think he's finally getting how critical the 3G refresh is, that maybe Apple really isn't doing well in Europe (duh), and that it IS worrisome that Apple is so far behind pace to meet their 10 million goal.
Sometimes it takes awhile to bring ppl around. Though I'm sure T will always at least sip the Kool-aid, he may stop chugging it.
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If Teno had gone back to read and re-read, my posts he would have seen one central theme. The current iPhone is lacking. I never said, or do not think i did, that the iPhone is not good. I said it is not cracked up to what Teno and the other sheeple have made it out to be. It is a great evolutionary product that could be greatly improved. For me and my needs, it is practically featureless, but with the proper software it can be made better.
The point you miss is that this is your opinion. As much as you may believe it, your opinion is not a fact.
What saddens me: no 3G (yet), no MMS (whaa?), no video recording, a camera that gets bitchslapped by what you see on the likes of the N95 and N82, no voice dialing, limited bluetooth functionality, missing business features, etc. etc.
Again this is TBaggins opinion. There is no evidence that this is the collective opinion of the mobile phone market at large.
Kind of interesting how Teno no longer shows up to defend a poor position or even to acknowledge that you had him dead to rights. I guess this is the way with the Jim Jones crowd.
Difficult to believe, but I do actually have a job and a life outside of AI.
Interesting you would say I've been completely biased. First of all biased means to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against. I've never proclaimed the iPhone the best phone. I've never claimed that anyone should never use any other phone but the iPhone. I've never claimed that no one should have any complaints about the iPhone.
I could be wrong but I think MR. Baggins is talking about how you defended to the end that the iPhone is not selling in well in Europe and how the goal posts continue to be moved in your arguments.
What I have said is that everyone has differing needs. I think its fine that the iPhone may not fit your needs their are plenty of other phones that should. I've said Apple designed the current iPhone with a few apps that it felt were the best mix and the most useful. Apple said from the beginning that it would continue to add features and functions to the phone. Perhaps the missing features will come in the near future.
If you say so but from the posts I have read from you, you tend to tow the party line, but if you feels your views have been misrepresented, fair enough. You are given benefit of the doubt by me.
I don't see how my stance has been biased or "kool aid drinking." You guys did not want to see the nuances of the situation you just want it to be black or white - good or bad. You want to be unfairly and ardently in favor or against.
I think my "moving the goal posts" argument is valid here. Some things are good or bad, black or white. In my opinion, the iPhone is a great iPod with phone, but a bad phone with iPod. I am in favor of Apple doing better than it did because it is not that hard to do.
Our debates basically have centered around 3G, feature list, and European sales.
It is apples and oranges to compare Europe to the US. One is a mature market while the other is maturing.
While 3G is clearly a better technology than EDGE, widespread and ubiquitous in Europe its not actually that commonly used. The highest usage being in Italy.
Really? Not commonly used? How do people check their emails, or surf, or use the various chatting applications? Ever here of Fring, iSkoot, Truphone? These all run over wifi or 3G. You might be misunderstanding when they say 3G as in video-calls, but no one ( my guess completely) is making the conscience effort to manually switch off 3G in favor of straight GSM/GPRS data calls. No way. As you said it is ubiquitous and most people have no idea how they are connecting. The setting are automatic the moment you stick the card in the phone.
The iPhone with its slower EDGE as a singular device is the most used data phone in the world. The iPhone by itself stands as number 2 behind all data enabled Nokia phones. iPhone's data marketshare is extremely impressive in Europe where there are more variety of data phones with 3G.
Not sure I buy this. Can you post a link to this and how they arrived at this? I would be willing to bet that 3G phones are using as much data as EDGE networks. By the way, 3G settings are automatically input into the phone where as EDGE has to be manually entered or sent via the operator.
This is a clear example that the user experience is not so much the data pipeline but the software using the data pipeline.
Not sure what you mean here.
Nokia conducted a survey of its phone users asking for the features they most wanted and used. Email was the number 1 feature. In surveys the the top features found to be used in the iPhone are email, SMS, and internet.
I took part in this survey. I agree. Guess how I connect on my N82. I use HSDPA and connect at 7.2 mb/sec.
The list of complaints about missing features is so varied its all rather subjective. So far their really is no clear information that says iPhone sales have directly suffered because of missing features.
Maybe not in the US, but those I have spoken to here in Europe see the iPhone as completely underwhelming in terms of what a biz user wants. They all agree that the media player aspect is without equal.
Because of all the above iPhone sales in Europe are poor. Generally these poor sales are measured against the explosive sales in the US.
Agreed, but Europeans are most so simplistic in terms of telephony. It takes more than a snazzy UI to impress.
I would say this is a much more complex issue than simply 3G or features. I agree the iPhone sales in Europe are not great. I agreed a long time ago that European iPhone sales are mediocre at best. But the more important part that gets overshadowed by the hoopla of big sales number are the basic nuts and bolts of profits and subscriptions. Apple made profit from European iPhone sales. European carriers added new subscriptions. Its not as sexy but in the end that is essentially the point.
Apple did make some money. Not as much as they could have if they had a product that Europeans would purchase without a second thought. The operators were going to get those subscriptions regardless. People want phones and connections.
Europe already has a competitive smartphone market. Its less likely one phone was going to come in and outsell every other smartphone the way it did in the US. The European price of the phone and tariff were too high. This is beginning to come into balance. O2 lowered its tariff and sales began to grow. O2 lowered the price of the phone and they began to sell out.
This could be an example of people power. The Europeans said no to the price and they sat on the shelf. Finland told Apple no because of no 3G, but now my friends in Sonera say that they have had a visit from a certain "fruit" vender.
While AT&t has had the price in the right place were the market is willing to accept and has not had the same sales problems. Keeping the phone in stock has been more of the problem.
More or less agreed.