Those who have a Mac, and therefor would be eligible for the upgrade, would continue to pay the lower price.
Only those who have no Mac would pay the higher price.
The reason why people cheat with Windows, or even OS X, is not because of the high price, but because its not free. They don't want to pay anything.
Exactly!
And the people who say "well, they hackers would find a way around this!" I say, Sure. Of course. The point of this scheme would be to stop or slow large scale cloning not to stop the hobbiest or hacker. It would give Apple an angle to either profit from the large scale cloner's use of their R&D, or sue them to oblivion for not paying for full licenses
Sorry, Ben, but I haven't been able to locate the source of your "Steve has said publicly that he doesn't listen to customers" assertion. Could you help me out a bit here with a few links?
While the OS is an issue,I think the lack of key models is a significant factor as well in limiting market share.
Are all-in-ones selling many on the PC side? I doubt it, and I doubt they ever will sell many. I think that many people buy imacs because it's the only option in that price range.
And while most PC owners don't upgrade, they buy machines that can be upgraded because they want that option (even if they don't take advantage of it). There certainly are people who want to be able to upgrade their computer but not have to buy a new monitor.
I simply don't buy that the imac form factor is what the average person wants - it's a prime example of Apple trying to influence consumer wants instead of providing what the average consumer wants.
Except for Apple, all-in-ones are still a fairly new category for PC's. While several companies have attempted them in the past, they were not very good, to say the least. now they are learning style from Apple, and with the proliferation of models from all major manufacturers, they must be selling.
While not doubt, Apple would sell xMacs, ir some varient, the question is whether they would sell enough for Apple to bother.
It's pretty clear that Apple wil not get into the cheap mid tower business. That's just not Apple. their machines have to have a minimum of features that represent the current thinking at Apple.
That makes sense. Look at how many people here complain every time Apple leaves some feature out of a base model!
I can't se the sense of Apple selling something even close to what these copies are. They aren't clones, because they aren't 100% compatible. They're more like the old IBM " compatibles", which weren't.
So you think Apple simply wants to make some money on the lawsuit?
He means that there would have to be a point to a suit. If the "company" delivers two or three machines, then is gone, what point would there be in trying to sue them?
Apple legal needs to take these loosers to the cleaners.... I would love to see them set an example...
I used to think that... now I'm wondering if it might be better for the long term health and adoption of OSX (and beyond) if the hacker community adopts Apple and uses custom-built systems to stretch our notions of what an Apple computer is and can be. Perhaps Apple would be willing to become the company they need to be by allowing this kind of hack, as long as they keep making their money on the OS and keep selling quality hardware to people willing to pay for it.
Notebooks are AIOs, too, and we know that laptop PCs sales are skyrocketing.
I guess I wasn't specific enough.
I don't think there's any evidence that most consumers want an AIO for their DESKTOP. Better?
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
It's pretty clear that Apple wil not get into the cheap mid tower business. That's just not Apple. their machines have to have a minimum of features that represent the current thinking at Apple.
That makes sense. Look at how many people here complain every time Apple leaves some feature out of a base model!
Based on apple's product line, how can you say that they have a minimum of features? They don't even have a DVD burner in the base laptop or mini, which is available in PCs that cost hundreds less.
And a midtower wouldn't be lacking in features, it would be easy for it to beat the current mini in every way but size. The problem is apple's machines have to have a minimum of gimmicks. And the midtower wouldn't have one, it would simply be a utilitarian machine in an appealing price range.
Sorry, Ben, but I haven't been able to locate the source of your "Steve has said publicly that he doesn't listen to customers" assertion. Could you help me out a bit here with a few links?
It's not exactly a true statement. He was talking about customers not knowing what they want until you show it to them, and that's why Apple doesn't do market research asking for customer opinions. They present their products to the consumer fully formed, then modify their products after feedback from buyers.
Does Apple's inaction signal they are more willing to consider licensing OSX to run on 3rd party hardware?
Probably not. The technical issues in doing that would be devastating.
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Apple's lack of response here indicates that they have the mythical mid-range tower in the pipeline and ready to go soon. Such a product would pretty much lay waste to any clone maker's efforts, even with the expected Apple mark-up. I know I'm probably wrong, but I remain hopeful.
The Mini's problem has never been the CPU. It's been hard drive size and accessibility of the memory,
I changed the memory in my Dad's mini without much effort. And I'm not the most handy guy around. The drive isn't much an issue given either firewire or a NAS and the 5400 rpm notebook dirve didn't seem horribly impact performance.
The HDD can be replaced. It takes two minutes to open the case and get to the drive.
The same thing is true for the RAM.
Two minutes my a$$. I just upgraded a intel minis ram and it took me about 10 minutes to do. Even when you factor in that I am Polish and that it probably took me twice as long as a normal person it is not a "simple" nor "quick" thing to do. \
Knowing Steve Jobs, i doubt he even consider the idea.. he likes his things the Apple way. Besides, thats what makes Apple.. Apple.
they will lose their loyal mac consumer if they do that
Guys! Guys! Hey! Read the earlier stories on AI and follow the links from some of those posters. It doesn't matter! Chill out!
We now have OSX out in the wild. Can you see the headless mac? Mid-size tower etc etc?
Apple is NOT interested in building commodity boxes. However if businesses need a cheep tower to try out OSX well, then, great! These boys will build them. OSX will make the leap into business.
Really, it's time anyway.
Apple had gone to Intel because the guys at IBM (PA Semiconductor) just weren't ready with their chips. So they spent time on Intel for a while and now they've bought PA Semi.
Well, what do you think PA Semi is gonna make? OK, how about specialized chipsets that will run OSX ...and windows... at some SCREAMING speed that will make the hackintosh 'problem' totally beside the point....
While the OS is an issue,I think the lack of key models is a significant factor as well in limiting market share.
Are all-in-ones selling many on the PC side? I doubt it, and I doubt they ever will sell many. I think that many people buy imacs because it's the only option in that price range.
That's why I ended up with an iMac. I wanted to switch to a Mac and for the price, it was the only one that made sense. When you added in upgrades to the Mini to make it even vaguely comparable, it was close to the price of iMac (and that's without a monitor for the Mini).
Quote:
And while most PC owners don't upgrade, they buy machines that can be upgraded because they want that option (even if they don't take advantage of it). There certainly are people who want to be able to upgrade their computer but not have to buy a new monitor.
Exactly. And there are other parts that are nice to be able to port to a new computer, like hard drives, network cards and the CD/DVD burners. I suppose I could remove the hard drive from my iMac but it would render both the monitor and computer halves useless.
And there's other nice things about the PC in that you don't have to pay for stuff you don't need. I've had my iMac for about a year and a half and have never made use of Firewire. The built in webcam gets almost no use (the only major use it got was as a bar code scanner while I was playing with a demo Delicious Library).
Not saying I don't like my iMac, but the one-size-fits-most model that Apple is aiming for probably doesn't fit that many people at all. Which might be why their laptop (sorry mobile computer) models are hugely outpacing desktop models, as people are used to the ideas of having less flexibility with a laptop.
I don't think there's any evidence that most consumers want an AIO for their DESKTOP. Better?
According to articles in the industry press and elsewhere, many people ARE buying portables as desktop replacements.
Quote:
Based on apple's product line, how can you say that they have a minimum of features? They don't even have a DVD burner in the base laptop or mini, which is available in PCs that cost hundreds less.
Believe it or not, most people don't burn DVD's.
Quote:
And a midtower wouldn't be lacking in features, it would be easy for it to beat the current mini in every way but size. The problem is apple's machines have to have a minimum of gimmicks. And the midtower wouldn't have one, it would simply be a utilitarian machine in an appealing price range.
We're talking about an APPLE machine, not a mindbender machine.
I changed the memory in my Dad's mini without much effort. And I'm not the most handy guy around. The drive isn't much an issue given either firewire or a NAS and the 5400 rpm notebook dirve didn't seem horribly impact performance.
The point isn't that you can't add more drive space, it's that the machine is only available with a tiny drive. Apple screwed themselves by designing around a laptop drive, it makes it impossible for them to be competitive with size and price of the drive.
And while you can open a mini pretty quick if you're handy, there's no question it's more of a pain than most other models from Apple. Plus the mini still maxes out at 2 gigs of ram tops, doesn't it?
According to articles in the industry press and elsewhere, many people ARE buying portables as desktop replacements.
Of course. That doesn't mean that people want an AIO desktop over a headless desktop. I still haven't seen anything remotely suggesting that there's significant demand for AIO machines.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Believe it or not, most people don't burn DVD's.
And yet, budget PCs give people the option while macs don't.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
We're talking about an APPLE machine, not a mindbender machine.
The point isn't that you can't add more drive space, it's that the machine is only available with a tiny drive. Apple screwed themselves by designing around a laptop drive, it makes it impossible for them to be competitive with size and price of the drive.
And while you can open a mini pretty quick if you're handy, there's no question it's more of a pain than most other models from Apple. Plus the mini still maxes out at 2 gigs of ram tops, doesn't it?
You buy what you need. Most PC's, if not all, in that price range also bottom out at 2 GB RAM.
You can get 2.5" drives up to 320 GB, with a 500 GB drive coming before too long. And the plug-in drive underneath drives that both Vinea and I mentioned are a viable option. Then you can go to a TB for one, and add several more later.
Comments
You missed the point.
Those who have a Mac, and therefor would be eligible for the upgrade, would continue to pay the lower price.
Only those who have no Mac would pay the higher price.
The reason why people cheat with Windows, or even OS X, is not because of the high price, but because its not free. They don't want to pay anything.
Exactly!
And the people who say "well, they hackers would find a way around this!" I say, Sure. Of course. The point of this scheme would be to stop or slow large scale cloning not to stop the hobbiest or hacker. It would give Apple an angle to either profit from the large scale cloner's use of their R&D, or sue them to oblivion for not paying for full licenses
I'd say maybe Apple's biding their time so there's enough money there to make it worth a lawsuit.
So you think Apple simply wants to make some money on the lawsuit?
http://reviews.cnet.com/desktops/psy...-32978558.html
6.9 rating from Cnet
6.4 rating from users.
That doesn't mean any users have rated the product (or even have a product).
That is simply what users rated after reading the article.
You're right, on this end it's all speculation.
While the OS is an issue,I think the lack of key models is a significant factor as well in limiting market share.
Are all-in-ones selling many on the PC side? I doubt it, and I doubt they ever will sell many. I think that many people buy imacs because it's the only option in that price range.
And while most PC owners don't upgrade, they buy machines that can be upgraded because they want that option (even if they don't take advantage of it). There certainly are people who want to be able to upgrade their computer but not have to buy a new monitor.
I simply don't buy that the imac form factor is what the average person wants - it's a prime example of Apple trying to influence consumer wants instead of providing what the average consumer wants.
Except for Apple, all-in-ones are still a fairly new category for PC's. While several companies have attempted them in the past, they were not very good, to say the least. now they are learning style from Apple, and with the proliferation of models from all major manufacturers, they must be selling.
While not doubt, Apple would sell xMacs, ir some varient, the question is whether they would sell enough for Apple to bother.
It's pretty clear that Apple wil not get into the cheap mid tower business. That's just not Apple. their machines have to have a minimum of features that represent the current thinking at Apple.
That makes sense. Look at how many people here complain every time Apple leaves some feature out of a base model!
I can't se the sense of Apple selling something even close to what these copies are. They aren't clones, because they aren't 100% compatible. They're more like the old IBM " compatibles", which weren't.
So you think Apple simply wants to make some money on the lawsuit?
He means that there would have to be a point to a suit. If the "company" delivers two or three machines, then is gone, what point would there be in trying to sue them?
Apple legal needs to take these loosers to the cleaners.... I would love to see them set an example...
I used to think that... now I'm wondering if it might be better for the long term health and adoption of OSX (and beyond) if the hacker community adopts Apple and uses custom-built systems to stretch our notions of what an Apple computer is and can be. Perhaps Apple would be willing to become the company they need to be by allowing this kind of hack, as long as they keep making their money on the OS and keep selling quality hardware to people willing to pay for it.
Notebooks are AIOs, too, and we know that laptop PCs sales are skyrocketing.
I guess I wasn't specific enough.
I don't think there's any evidence that most consumers want an AIO for their DESKTOP. Better?
It's pretty clear that Apple wil not get into the cheap mid tower business. That's just not Apple. their machines have to have a minimum of features that represent the current thinking at Apple.
That makes sense. Look at how many people here complain every time Apple leaves some feature out of a base model!
Based on apple's product line, how can you say that they have a minimum of features? They don't even have a DVD burner in the base laptop or mini, which is available in PCs that cost hundreds less.
And a midtower wouldn't be lacking in features, it would be easy for it to beat the current mini in every way but size. The problem is apple's machines have to have a minimum of gimmicks. And the midtower wouldn't have one, it would simply be a utilitarian machine in an appealing price range.
Sorry, Ben, but I haven't been able to locate the source of your "Steve has said publicly that he doesn't listen to customers" assertion. Could you help me out a bit here with a few links?
It's not exactly a true statement. He was talking about customers not knowing what they want until you show it to them, and that's why Apple doesn't do market research asking for customer opinions. They present their products to the consumer fully formed, then modify their products after feedback from buyers.
Does Apple's inaction signal they are more willing to consider licensing OSX to run on 3rd party hardware?
Probably not. The technical issues in doing that would be devastating.
I'm going to keep my fingers crossed that Apple's lack of response here indicates that they have the mythical mid-range tower in the pipeline and ready to go soon. Such a product would pretty much lay waste to any clone maker's efforts, even with the expected Apple mark-up. I know I'm probably wrong, but I remain hopeful.
The Mini's problem has never been the CPU. It's been hard drive size and accessibility of the memory,
I changed the memory in my Dad's mini without much effort. And I'm not the most handy guy around. The drive isn't much an issue given either firewire or a NAS and the 5400 rpm notebook dirve didn't seem horribly impact performance.
The HDD can be replaced. It takes two minutes to open the case and get to the drive.
The same thing is true for the RAM.
Two minutes my a$$. I just upgraded a intel minis ram and it took me about 10 minutes to do. Even when you factor in that I am Polish and that it probably took me twice as long as a normal person it is not a "simple" nor "quick" thing to do.
I am very impressed with how it is put together.
Jim
Knowing Steve Jobs, i doubt he even consider the idea.. he likes his things the Apple way. Besides, thats what makes Apple.. Apple.
they will lose their loyal mac consumer if they do that
Guys! Guys! Hey! Read the earlier stories on AI and follow the links from some of those posters. It doesn't matter! Chill out!
We now have OSX out in the wild. Can you see the headless mac? Mid-size tower etc etc?
Apple is NOT interested in building commodity boxes. However if businesses need a cheep tower to try out OSX well, then, great! These boys will build them. OSX will make the leap into business.
Really, it's time anyway.
Apple had gone to Intel because the guys at IBM (PA Semiconductor) just weren't ready with their chips. So they spent time on Intel for a while and now they've bought PA Semi.
Well, what do you think PA Semi is gonna make? OK, how about specialized chipsets that will run OSX ...and windows... at some SCREAMING speed that will make the hackintosh 'problem' totally beside the point....
Understand? yet??
You're right, on this end it's all speculation.
While the OS is an issue,I think the lack of key models is a significant factor as well in limiting market share.
Are all-in-ones selling many on the PC side? I doubt it, and I doubt they ever will sell many. I think that many people buy imacs because it's the only option in that price range.
That's why I ended up with an iMac. I wanted to switch to a Mac and for the price, it was the only one that made sense. When you added in upgrades to the Mini to make it even vaguely comparable, it was close to the price of iMac (and that's without a monitor for the Mini).
And while most PC owners don't upgrade, they buy machines that can be upgraded because they want that option (even if they don't take advantage of it). There certainly are people who want to be able to upgrade their computer but not have to buy a new monitor.
Exactly. And there are other parts that are nice to be able to port to a new computer, like hard drives, network cards and the CD/DVD burners. I suppose I could remove the hard drive from my iMac but it would render both the monitor and computer halves useless.
And there's other nice things about the PC in that you don't have to pay for stuff you don't need. I've had my iMac for about a year and a half and have never made use of Firewire. The built in webcam gets almost no use (the only major use it got was as a bar code scanner while I was playing with a demo Delicious Library).
Not saying I don't like my iMac, but the one-size-fits-most model that Apple is aiming for probably doesn't fit that many people at all. Which might be why their laptop (sorry mobile computer) models are hugely outpacing desktop models, as people are used to the ideas of having less flexibility with a laptop.
I don't think there's any evidence that most consumers want an AIO for their DESKTOP. Better?
According to articles in the industry press and elsewhere, many people ARE buying portables as desktop replacements.
Based on apple's product line, how can you say that they have a minimum of features? They don't even have a DVD burner in the base laptop or mini, which is available in PCs that cost hundreds less.
Believe it or not, most people don't burn DVD's.
And a midtower wouldn't be lacking in features, it would be easy for it to beat the current mini in every way but size. The problem is apple's machines have to have a minimum of gimmicks. And the midtower wouldn't have one, it would simply be a utilitarian machine in an appealing price range.
We're talking about an APPLE machine, not a mindbender machine.
I changed the memory in my Dad's mini without much effort. And I'm not the most handy guy around. The drive isn't much an issue given either firewire or a NAS and the 5400 rpm notebook dirve didn't seem horribly impact performance.
The point isn't that you can't add more drive space, it's that the machine is only available with a tiny drive. Apple screwed themselves by designing around a laptop drive, it makes it impossible for them to be competitive with size and price of the drive.
And while you can open a mini pretty quick if you're handy, there's no question it's more of a pain than most other models from Apple. Plus the mini still maxes out at 2 gigs of ram tops, doesn't it?
According to articles in the industry press and elsewhere, many people ARE buying portables as desktop replacements.
Of course. That doesn't mean that people want an AIO desktop over a headless desktop. I still haven't seen anything remotely suggesting that there's significant demand for AIO machines.
Believe it or not, most people don't burn DVD's.
And yet, budget PCs give people the option while macs don't.
We're talking about an APPLE machine, not a mindbender machine.
What are you talking about?
The point isn't that you can't add more drive space, it's that the machine is only available with a tiny drive. Apple screwed themselves by designing around a laptop drive, it makes it impossible for them to be competitive with size and price of the drive.
And while you can open a mini pretty quick if you're handy, there's no question it's more of a pain than most other models from Apple. Plus the mini still maxes out at 2 gigs of ram tops, doesn't it?
You buy what you need. Most PC's, if not all, in that price range also bottom out at 2 GB RAM.
You can get 2.5" drives up to 320 GB, with a 500 GB drive coming before too long. And the plug-in drive underneath drives that both Vinea and I mentioned are a viable option. Then you can go to a TB for one, and add several more later.