3G settings discovered in latest beta of iPhone firmware

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  • Reply 81 of 125
    stonefreestonefree Posts: 242member
    I see three possibly reasons there was no 3G initially-



    1) AT&T's 3G network was sub par

    2) Including a 3G chipset would have made the iPhone .25 centimeter thicker- unacceptable to Steve

    3) Apple knew it could resell a new version to the same people buying the initial iPhone.



    I think 3 is the main reason. This will also create a flood of affordable used 2G iPhones which will allow Apple to expand its market to people previously put off by the high price.
  • Reply 82 of 125
    jeffdmjeffdm Posts: 12,946member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    This was a topic of discussion about a year or so when we had some Nokia engineers come in. As I understood it, when in the home network, the HLR (home location register) will poll the phone and see if it can call, do data, yada, yada, yada. 3G is part of this poll. A 3G connection is maintained to the phone but as long as no data is being passed, you are not billed. Once you use a service, i.e data, Fring, VoIP, etc.... the counter starts to tick. My understanding is that voice goes over GSM will all other services are carried via 3G data services. This applies to European (Finnish) networks and could be different in the States, as the billing practices there are different. The radio is always on but in an idle state waiting for something to do. I tried to contact my friend at Nokia to ask him this but as it is Mother's Day here in FInland, he was not avail. If you are still interested, I can contact him tomorrow for an answer.



    I wasn't asking about billing but power consumption. That polling, any form of transmission or being able to receive has to have a power cost. I'm just trying to grasp the limitations.
  • Reply 83 of 125
    probablyprobably Posts: 139member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stonefree View Post


    I see three possibly reasons there was no 3G initially-



    1) AT&T's 3G network was sub par

    2) Including a 3G chipset would have made the iPhone .25 centimeter thicker- unacceptable to Steve

    3) Apple knew it could resell a new version to the same people buying the initial iPhone.



    I think 3 is the main reason. This will also create a flood of affordable used 2G iPhones which will allow Apple to expand its market to people previously put off by the high price.



    #1 It's still subpar. They are going to have to sell the new iPhone in Apple Stores with no 3G coverage.



    #2 is not known information.



    I don't think the availability of used devices counts as expanding its market.
  • Reply 84 of 125
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    I wasn't asking about billing but power consumption. That polling, any form of transmission or being able to receive has to have a power cost. I'm just trying to grasp the limitations.



    Yes, you will take a power hit, but not much more from what I remember. The hit comes in when you make a dedicated call via an application. During the poll, there is a two-way conversation between the phone and the nearest BSC/BTS.
  • Reply 85 of 125
    casper3casper3 Posts: 14member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by probably View Post


    What are you talking about? Are there 3G data plans that aren't unlimited?



    No, don't worry, I'm talking about unlocked iPhones.
  • Reply 86 of 125
    lundylundy Posts: 4,466member
    Eh, icedTea1966 is banned. Thanks for the heads-ups, everyone.
  • Reply 87 of 125
    stonefreestonefree Posts: 242member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by probably View Post


    #1 It's still subpar. They are going to have to sell the new iPhone in Apple Stores with no 3G coverage.



    #2 is not known information.



    I don't think the availability of used devices counts as expanding its market.



    3G coverage is very good around urban centers, where it's most important. I really don't think Apple cares if people in Nebraska can't get 3G.



    #2 was just sarcasm. Apple seems to place form factor above everything else. I believe 3G chipsets are larger so I don't think it would be too outlandish to believe Steve would reject it if it made the iPhone a tiny bit larger.



    I think used devices does count as expanding the market. If someone bought a 2G iPhone and sells it to buy a 3G phone, that's expanding the market isn't it? If the original was 3G, the owner would not have sold it.
  • Reply 88 of 125
    probablyprobably Posts: 139member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by stonefree View Post


    3G coverage is very good around urban centers, where it's most important. I really don't think Apple cares if people in Nebraska can't get 3G.



    #2 was just sarcasm. Apple seems to place form factor above everything else. I believe 3G chipsets are larger so I don't think it would be too outlandish to believe Steve would reject it if it made the iPhone a tiny bit larger.



    I think used devices does count as expanding the market. If someone bought a 2G iPhone and sells it to buy a 3G phone, that's expanding the market isn't it? If the original was 3G, the owner would not have sold it.



    There are still a handful of stores in states like Massachusetts, Connecticut and California that don't have it in the area.



    Also financials would view the 3G iPhone itself as broadening the market, never the fact that the dated hardware is subsequently traded more frequently post release. You should view it as: the next iPhone is the device that's broadening mobile OS X penetration/MobileSafari statistics/what have you. The new model is the actual, measurable catalyst.



    I do want to know what happens two years from now if you sign up for AT&T using a used EDGE iPhone you just bought - is revenue sharing still in effect?
  • Reply 89 of 125
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by sapporobaby View Post


    This was a topic of discussion about a year or so when we had some Nokia engineers come in. As I understood it, when in the home network, the HLR (home location register) will poll the phone and see if it can call, do data, yada, yada, yada. 3G is part of this poll. A 3G connection is maintained to the phone but as long as no data is being passed, you are not billed. Once you use a service, i.e data, Fring, VoIP, etc.... the counter starts to tick. My understanding is that voice goes over GSM will all other services are carried via 3G data services. This applies to European (Finnish) networks and could be different in the States, as the billing practices there are different. The radio is always on but in an idle state waiting for something to do. I tried to contact my friend at Nokia to ask him this but as it is Mother's Day here in FInland, he was not avail. If you are still interested, I can contact him tomorrow for an answer.



    OK I don't claim to be an expert on this and I maybe wrong but I think calls are made over 3G. I'll explain my reasoning.



    1. countries like Japan don't have a 2G network anymore. They are 3G only as far as I know.



    2. 3G standby times are normally the same as 2G standby times yet the talktime is vastly less on 3G. If it did the call over 2G and having the 3G radio on in standby makes no difference to standby times then it would make sense that talktime would be close to the same.



    3. As far as I know for each small band of spectrum a cell tower can only handle 8 active connections (Calls in use). I think its something like 6 are used for voice and 2 for data. Of course they have a lot of slightly different frequencies to get more numbers active capacity. 3G on the other hand can handle vastly more connections per frequency. This gives the network more call and data capacity using less equipment making it cheaper for them in the long run over 2G.



    Someone correct me if I am wrong?



    By the way I'm from the UK and have had many 3G phones before the iPhone downgrade back to 2G
  • Reply 90 of 125
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by FastLaneJB View Post


    OK I don't claim to be an expert on this and I maybe wrong but I think calls are made over 3G. I'll explain my reasoning.



    1. countries like Japan don't have a 2G network anymore. They are 3G only as far as I know.



    2. 3G standby times are normally the same as 2G standby times yet the talktime is vastly less on 3G. If it did the call over 2G and having the 3G radio on in standby makes no difference to standby times then it would make sense that talktime would be close to the same.



    3. As far as I know for each small band of spectrum a cell tower can only handle 8 active connections (Calls in use). I think its something like 6 are used for voice and 2 for data. Of course they have a lot of slightly different frequencies to get more numbers active capacity. 3G on the other hand can handle vastly more connections per frequency. This gives the network more call and data capacity using less equipment making it cheaper for them in the long run over 2G.



    Someone correct me if I am wrong?



    By the way I'm from the UK and have had many 3G phones before the iPhone downgrade back to 2G



    Cheers mate,



    I do not recall all of the specifics as well. Like I mentioned, I can try and contact my friend tomorrow and get the skinny on the facts. I am currently in Finland which probably has some of the best networks in the world, and I know that leaving my phone on 3G all the time allows me to run my N82 for about 2 or 3 days of normal usage. If I use any 3G apps, the standby time is reduced, but I just recharge and drive on.
  • Reply 91 of 125
    pg4gpg4g Posts: 383member
    I used to have a 3G smartphone, and I saw how the info gets passed along.



    3G is a type of data transmission, technically called HSPA (HSDPA,on the iPhone, and the higher HSUPA and HSOPA, not on the iPhone).



    HSPA = High Speed Packet Access - 3G class

    HSDPA = High Speed Downlink Packet Access - 3G type

    HSUPA = High Speed Uplink Packet Access - 3G type

    HSOPA = High Speed OFPM Packet Access - also known as Super 3G - (theoretical only)



    My phone only connected to 3G when it started transmitting data. It appears this switch allows the Phone to jump from and to 2g and 3G.



    Good for us and for battery time tho
  • Reply 92 of 125
    merdheadmerdhead Posts: 587member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by JeffDM View Post


    Is it really used for voice?



    Another question I have is how long does it tale to initialize a 3G connection? Why not have the connection on only when you're using a data intensive app? Say maybe if I start Safari, 3G turns on, if Safari isn't used for 5 minutes, turn off that radio?



    A few basics about mobile phones: The 'generations' of mobile phones match changes in in the air interface, or the type of protocol that the radio uses. The air interface is the connection through which all communication is performed and there is only one active at a time, unless some sort of hand off is being performed between two air interfaces.



    GSM is a digital mobile phone standard. That means that all communication is digitally encoded, so it's all data. Voice is encoded as numbers and sent across the airwaves to the base station. When a data connection is made it uses the same interface as voice, but handled somewhat differently due to different requirements.



    So, all voice and data is sent in 3G when the phone is transmitting in 3G. 3G is less efficient than 2G so you will find less talk time for the same phone when in 3G mode.
  • Reply 93 of 125
    gqbgqb Posts: 1,934member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by addabox View Post


    So if I'm following here, the contention of some posters is that Apple went out of their way to put a shitty, old tech chip in the iPhone for no reason whatsoever, since their claims about battery life and American 3G rollout are bogus.



    And this happened because all board level design decisions are made by Jobs, who likes to put out crappy products that he can market the hell out of to fools, just because he's such a dick and a charlatan. I would imagine his engineers came to him with the correct chip, but Jobs demanded they downgrade it.



    But that can't be it, because Apple doesn't have any competent engineers (they probably couldn't even figure out what was on the market, and just grabbed the first thing that came to hand), since random dudes on the internet can easily see how pointlessly stupid the iPhone design is.



    And these random dudes come by their expertise because they are phone owners.



    That about it?



    On the nose, brother.
  • Reply 94 of 125
    SpamSandwichSpamSandwich Posts: 31,125member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by lundy View Post


    Eh, icedTea1966 is banned. Thanks for the heads-ups, everyone.



    Can you also send a power spike to his home connection?
  • Reply 95 of 125
    nasseraenasserae Posts: 3,157member
    Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.



    http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036
  • Reply 96 of 125
    solipsismsolipsism Posts: 25,726member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.



    http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036



    Putting the iPhone results aside and just focusing on the WCDMA vs. EDGE on the Samsung Blackjack that Anand tested we see some surprising results.




    The 22% drop in web browsing isn't bad, but the 52% drop in talk time is abysmal.
  • Reply 97 of 125
    lundylundy Posts: 4,466member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by SpamSandwich View Post


    Can you also send a power spike to his home connection?



    No, but we do have one additional weapon if needed.
  • Reply 98 of 125
    wilcowilco Posts: 985member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by federmoose View Post


    stop trolling. we have no use for trollers here.



    Why don't you wait until you've been here at least a month before telling anyone what to do?



  • Reply 99 of 125
    sapporobabysapporobaby Posts: 1,079member
    Quote:
    Originally Posted by NasserAE View Post


    Here is a test for some of you who say 3G don't effect battery life. Look at talk time, it seems to me it support what merdhead just said. Unless someone has another test that shows otherwise I have to say that 3G power consumption was probably one the most important factors in using EDGE on the iPhone.



    http://www.anandtech.com/printarticle.aspx?i=3036



    I do not think anyone here said that 3G does not effect battery performance. The key is how is 3G being utilized. If you have your phone on, and it is connected to a 3G network but you do not pass any data, battery life will be about normal, but if you are VoIP'ng, Fring'ng, Skype'ng, xfer'ng large amounts of data, you will see a substancial drop in battery life. Not to mention that these are lab tests rather than real world tests. How many people surf for hours and hours on their iPhone or Samsung? I could see sitting and watching a vid or listening to music as a better representation of real world activity.



    My next question is: what is the problem with simply charging your phone when the battery runs down?
  • Reply 100 of 125
    pg4gpg4g Posts: 383member
    Well, the problem is that some people can't charge it on the run (like in a car) and they don't want the inconvenience of 300 iPhone chargers everywhere just to make sure the iPhone will last the day.
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