What you don't realize is that to your brother, that means they don't accept him. At all. And that's all that matters.
I'm so sorry that your parents are torn up about this. If they just stop listening to the church and do what they know is right (to simply love their son and allow him his own choices and support him in them), they won't have that pressure.
You have interpreted the Bible the way someone told you to interpret it. The way you have been intoctrinated to believe it is to be interpreted.
It's interesting that you criticize me when I say that my brother's homosexuality was a choice (he had a girlfriend, got into the 'furry' business, then became gay). But now you say you know my parents' consciences, and that their consciences were 'indoctrinated' by the church. Do you know my parents? Have you talked to them?
Bible verses that even fundamentalists don't take literally...
Here are some verses which come directly from the Bible that even fundamentalists do not take literally for today, proving that they selectively pick and choose verses out of context which justify their pre-existing prejudice against gay and lesbian people. Take a look for yourself...
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
This verse says that women can't speak in church. Period. It is completely ignored today. Applying this verse to the modern day church would be ancient, absurd and nonsensical.
When it comes to the verses about homosexuality, however, fundamentalists suddenly insist that they must be interpreted literally, word for word!
Actually, some churches do hold to that teaching, and women don't talk during the service. I've heard about an Assembly of God church in the area that holds to that rule.
Regarding biblical interpretation, let me bring up the Levitical rule about not eating shellfish as part of the kosher rules.
Jesus said, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
For a time God had the Jews practice certian rules, like not eating shellfish, or not wearing material of multiple materials. Then he modified those rules later on. It's like your children -- you have certain rule that you give a 5-year-old, and they don't apply anymore to a 15-year-old. Likewise, God started with Israel as a theocracy, and gave them special rules to make them pure and holy compared to the nations around them. Later on, when his plan broadened to the Gentiles (non-Jews), he moved to the next phase of his plan. Some of those laws that were to teach the Jews holiness and separateness were no longer needed.
However, the broadening of certain rules by God does not mean we can broaden other rules that he didn't broaden. Homosexuality is a sin from Genesis to Revelation. There's a difference between cleanliness rules (i.e. kosher rules) and rules that are core to our very being (i.e. the fact that we are male and female for a reason.)
Actually, some churches do hold to that teaching, and women don't talk during the service. I've heard about an Assembly of God church in the area that holds to that rule.
Regarding biblical interpretation, let me bring up the Levitical rule about not eating shellfish as part of the kosher rules.
Jesus said, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
For a time God had the Jews practice certian rules, like not eating shellfish, or not wearing material of multiple materials. Then he modified those rules later on. It's like your children -- you have certain rule that you give a 5-year-old, and they don't apply anymore to a 15-year-old. Likewise, God started with Israel as a theocracy, and gave them special rules to make them pure and holy compared to the nations around them. Later on, when his plan broadened to the Gentiles (non-Jews), he moved to the next phase of his plan. Some of those laws that were to teach the Jews holiness and separateness were no longer needed.
However, the broadening of certain rules by God does not mean we can broaden other rules that he didn't broaden. Homosexuality is a sin from Genesis to Revelation. There's a difference between cleanliness rules (i.e. kosher rules) and rules that are core to our very being (i.e. the fact that we are male and female for a reason.)
Like I said, selective faith. You refuse to address all of the silly stories told in the bible. You just stick with the ones that serve your purpose. Midless! So ask yourself:
"What would Jesus do?"
During his earthly ministry . . .
\tJesus never called a gay person a sinner.
\tJesus never called a gay person immoral.
\tJesus never asked a gay person to change.
\tJesus never condemned a single gay person.
\tJesus never judged a single gay person.
\tJesus never quoted scripture against a single gay person.
Can't you see frug is happy living in his own private State of Denial?
,
Well it's also possible (likely) his brother was born bisexual, leaning either way. He just happened to find that the person he ultimately fell in love with and stayed in love with, who fulfilled his needs and made him happy, was a man. Being recently married to the love of my life, I know how this discovery can feel.
Regardless, he didn't "turn" gay. His behaviour might have, but not his sexuality. His sexuality, be it gay, or bisexual, he was most definitely born with.
The problem here is with people who are born gay, or bisexual leaning toward gay, and because of social pressures attempt to live as heterosexuals. These are the people whose lives are destroyed by social and religious pressure. These are the people whose parents disown them, or don't "approve" of their choices (which means they don't approve of them at all). These are the people, just like Frugal's bro, who are much more likely to commit suicide.
If my parents refused to "approve" of my wife, being an independent soul, I would be hurt but not suicidal, and I would choose love and my future over birth and my past. Hopefully that's the way Frugal's bro dealt with it, and he's not devastated by his parents' rejection, instead concentrating on his and his lover's happiness. God bless them.
A few years ago my brother announced to the family that he was a 'furry'; someone who likes to dress up as a fox or bear or hedgehog or whatever, and hang out at furry conventions and online. Then a year later he announced he was gay, and was moving in with his furry partner.
My parents were worried about the furry business, and thought it was weird and disturbing. They didn't know that only 25% of furries are heterosexual. When he came out of the closet, my parents were shocked and saddened. They still are to this day, something like 5 years later. The two of them have been welcome at family gatherings, but the homosexuality or furriness have not been accepted as O.K. We can't consider his partner as family, yet they have been invited and have come to family Christmas get-togethers. My parents don't allow them to sleep together in the same room of their house, so they choose to stay at a hotel. Lately, though, they haven't been attending family get-togethers.
It's conceivable that he could commit suicide. It's not what we want or what anyone wants. However, we can't change God's rules and say that homosexuality is O.K. No parent wants their child to commit suicide. But at the same time, each of us has been given free will by God. The choice to put a gun to your head or to down a bottle of pills is a personal choice.
At a certain point, when a child does things that shouldn't be done, the parent has to let the child go. For the parents to disobey God, too, would be adding to the wrongs.
My parents' hearts are still broken to this day. They've pretty much lost their son. But there is one who has higher power, and they can't go against him even for the sake of their own son.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Londor
Your brother was born homosexual.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Exactly. Frugal's brother was born gay. And Frugal's brother has chosen to be a man and stand up for what he is--by sticking by his boyfriend/partner and sticking to his guns (staying at a hotel to avoid his parents' stupid rules, and lately avoiding the family altogether).
OTOH, Frugal has chosen to hide behind the bible, rather than stand up for himself like a man. Sad, really.
Add on to this matter the fact that many religious groups do not agree that homosexuality is acceptable in their ranks but now you want a law saying they aren't allowed to fire someone based on orientation. Congrats, you just violated separation of church & state, the government is now dictating religion.
I'm over simplifying a bit but I think you get the point.
Sorry but you get it wrong here. If we were to follow your logic by being separate the government would have to let some Muslim extremist group cut the hand of the (accused) thief, or a Christian extremist group stone a woman (accused) for infidelity.
It is the opposite, the government sets the rules independently of religious beliefs and all law-abiding citizens are to follow them, whether it is in accordance with their religious opinions or not.
Like I said, selective faith. You refuse to address all of the silly stories told in the bible. You just stick with the ones that serve your purpose. Midless! So ask yourself:
"What would Jesus do?"
During his earthly ministry . . .
\tJesus never called a gay person a sinner.
\tJesus never called a gay person immoral.
\tJesus never asked a gay person to change.
\tJesus never condemned a single gay person.
\tJesus never judged a single gay person.
\tJesus never quoted scripture against a single gay person.
You need to preface that with "the bible doesn't record Jesus as having said..."
Also note that Jesus never said anything that contradicted scripture. If he wanted to say that homosexuality was O.K. now (where it wasn't before), he could have. However, an argument of silence is not implied acceptance. He never contradicted the bible. He did point out where one rule was more important than another. For example, in the case of the good Samaritan, the Priest and the Levite were both 'in the right' not to touch the almost-dead, beat-up guy, because Leviticus forbid them to touch a dead body or blood, lest they should become unclean. But Jesus' point was that 'love your neighbor' is more important than the 'don't touch blood' or 'don't touch a dead body' rules.
Jesus hung out with sinners like prostitutes. He came to show them a better way, not to accept their adultery as being O.K. If Jesus was here today, he'd be hanging out with homosexuals, but he wouldn't be condoning their behavior.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Jealous? Not in the least. Questioning my heterosexuality? Not in the least. Funny how you think you know me better than I know myself.
I risk saddening my Father in heaven if I do things against his plan for me. And I make things worse for myself if I go my own way, too. I'd only be making things worse for myself by having sex with someone who's not my wife, and I haven't met her yet. God has given me encouragement that it will happen on his timing, though.
Exactly. Frugal's brother was born gay. And Frugal's brother has chosen to be a man and stand up for what he is--by sticking by his boyfriend/partner and sticking to his guns (staying at a hotel to avoid his parents' stupid rules, and lately avoiding the family altogether).
OTOH, Frugal has chosen to hide behind the bible, rather than stand up for himself like a man. Sad, really.
I used to be STRONGLY agnostic and very pro-gay. I grew up in Madison, WI, which is a very liberal town and has a large gay population. I was interested in any religion BUT Christianity. I was learning about all the other major religions, and had a certain draw towards Native American beliefs.
But someone challenged me to read 'The Case for Christ'. And that, coupled with God's own personal intervention in my life, convinced me that the God of the bible was real.
Understand, I didn't become a Christian because I wanted to. I didn't 'choose to hide behind the bible'. I was shown that God really is God, and everything else in my life changed at that moment, against my own desires.
That's exactly what I mean when I say that your brother stood up for his life, and you "sacrificed" yours to religion. That's a total cop-out.
It sounds like you've had (have?) a terrible life. I feel sorry for you. Life sucks. It truly does. But don't use the excuse of someone (or some book) "forcing your hand" so to speak: your life is what you make of it.
The point was that I didn't want God. But he showed me himself, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bikertwin
It sounds like you've had (have?) a terrible life. I feel sorry for you. Life sucks. It truly does. But don't use the excuse of someone (or some book) "forcing your hand" so to speak: your life is what you make of it.
My life got markedly better after getting to know him. Now I have hope, and a future. As the old hymn says, "He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am his own; and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."
My life is not what I make of it, its what He makes of it. His plans are better than ours.
The point was that I didn't want to be gay. But my lover showed me myself, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse: I fell in love.
My life got markedly better after getting to know him. Now I have hope, and a future. As the old hymn says, "He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am his own; and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."
My life is not what I make of it, its what love makes of it. Love's plans are better than ours.
You need to preface that with "the bible doesn't record Jesus as having said..."
He never contradicted the bible. He did point out where one rule was more important than another.
Maybe that's because the bible didn't first appear until 400 years AFTER the crucifixion. But I see your back to quoting Leviticus even though you Leviticus was "harsh" and not meant to be followed. What a phony.
Realize that that is an earthy perspective. From a heavenly perspective, it's a poor choice to reject God for a lower form of love. It has eternal consequences.
Maybe that's because the bible didn't first appear until 400 years AFTER the crucifixion. But I see your back to quoting Leviticus even though you Leviticus was "harsh" and not meant to be followed. What a phony.
The bible of Jesus' day, the Hebrew bible (what Christians call the Old Testament), was intact before Jesus. It started ~1500BC with Moses writing the Torah, and various other history, wisdom, and prophetic books were added through the centuries, but the Hebrew bible was complete before Jesus' time. The New Testament was collected and added after Jesus' time.
I never said Leviticus was not meant to be followed. When Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself," he was quoting Leviticus. Jesus also said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." That would include Leviticus. The question is not WHETHER to follow it, but HOW to follow it.
Realize that that is an earthy perspective. From a heavenly perspective, it's a poor choice to reject God for a lower form of love. It has eternal consequences.
So if you really, really think that God is the wrathful, vengeful tyrant you've grown to know from the Old Obsolete Testament, let your brother face Him when that moment arrives. Just don't try to take away from your brother that earthly love that makes him most happy, and failing that, take away the support and respect of a mother, father and brother that he probably also loved quite a lot and is heartbroken to have lost.
Really, Frugality, you really have no right talking about real romantic and sexual love when you've never experienced it. Once you feel it, you will know.
I really hope that everyone here can experience peace and love.
Comments
What you don't realize is that to your brother, that means they don't accept him. At all. And that's all that matters.
I'm so sorry that your parents are torn up about this. If they just stop listening to the church and do what they know is right (to simply love their son and allow him his own choices and support him in them), they won't have that pressure.
You have interpreted the Bible the way someone told you to interpret it. The way you have been intoctrinated to believe it is to be interpreted.
It's interesting that you criticize me when I say that my brother's homosexuality was a choice (he had a girlfriend, got into the 'furry' business, then became gay). But now you say you know my parents' consciences, and that their consciences were 'indoctrinated' by the church. Do you know my parents? Have you talked to them?
Bible verses that even fundamentalists don't take literally...
Here are some verses which come directly from the Bible that even fundamentalists do not take literally for today, proving that they selectively pick and choose verses out of context which justify their pre-existing prejudice against gay and lesbian people. Take a look for yourself...
"Women should be silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak, but should be submissive, as the law also says." (1 Corinthians 14:34)
This verse says that women can't speak in church. Period. It is completely ignored today. Applying this verse to the modern day church would be ancient, absurd and nonsensical.
When it comes to the verses about homosexuality, however, fundamentalists suddenly insist that they must be interpreted literally, word for word!
Actually, some churches do hold to that teaching, and women don't talk during the service. I've heard about an Assembly of God church in the area that holds to that rule.
Regarding biblical interpretation, let me bring up the Levitical rule about not eating shellfish as part of the kosher rules.
Jesus said, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
For a time God had the Jews practice certian rules, like not eating shellfish, or not wearing material of multiple materials. Then he modified those rules later on. It's like your children -- you have certain rule that you give a 5-year-old, and they don't apply anymore to a 15-year-old. Likewise, God started with Israel as a theocracy, and gave them special rules to make them pure and holy compared to the nations around them. Later on, when his plan broadened to the Gentiles (non-Jews), he moved to the next phase of his plan. Some of those laws that were to teach the Jews holiness and separateness were no longer needed.
However, the broadening of certain rules by God does not mean we can broaden other rules that he didn't broaden. Homosexuality is a sin from Genesis to Revelation. There's a difference between cleanliness rules (i.e. kosher rules) and rules that are core to our very being (i.e. the fact that we are male and female for a reason.)
Actually, some churches do hold to that teaching, and women don't talk during the service. I've heard about an Assembly of God church in the area that holds to that rule.
Regarding biblical interpretation, let me bring up the Levitical rule about not eating shellfish as part of the kosher rules.
Jesus said, "Don't you see that nothing that enters a man from the outside can make him 'unclean'?For it doesn't go into his heart but into his stomach, and then out of his body." (In saying this, Jesus declared all foods "clean.")
For a time God had the Jews practice certian rules, like not eating shellfish, or not wearing material of multiple materials. Then he modified those rules later on. It's like your children -- you have certain rule that you give a 5-year-old, and they don't apply anymore to a 15-year-old. Likewise, God started with Israel as a theocracy, and gave them special rules to make them pure and holy compared to the nations around them. Later on, when his plan broadened to the Gentiles (non-Jews), he moved to the next phase of his plan. Some of those laws that were to teach the Jews holiness and separateness were no longer needed.
However, the broadening of certain rules by God does not mean we can broaden other rules that he didn't broaden. Homosexuality is a sin from Genesis to Revelation. There's a difference between cleanliness rules (i.e. kosher rules) and rules that are core to our very being (i.e. the fact that we are male and female for a reason.)
Like I said, selective faith. You refuse to address all of the silly stories told in the bible. You just stick with the ones that serve your purpose. Midless! So ask yourself:
"What would Jesus do?"
During his earthly ministry . . .
\tJesus never called a gay person a sinner.
\tJesus never called a gay person immoral.
\tJesus never asked a gay person to change.
\tJesus never condemned a single gay person.
\tJesus never judged a single gay person.
\tJesus never quoted scripture against a single gay person.
he had a girlfriend, got into the 'furry' business, then became gay
Your brother was born homosexual.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Your brother was born homosexual.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Shhhh.... for godsakes, don't tell him the truth!
Can't you see frug is happy living in his own private State of Denial?
,
Shhhh.... for godsakes, don't tell him the truth!
Can't you see frug is happy living in his own private State of Denial?
,
Well it's also possible (likely) his brother was born bisexual, leaning either way. He just happened to find that the person he ultimately fell in love with and stayed in love with, who fulfilled his needs and made him happy, was a man. Being recently married to the love of my life, I know how this discovery can feel.
Regardless, he didn't "turn" gay. His behaviour might have, but not his sexuality. His sexuality, be it gay, or bisexual, he was most definitely born with.
The problem here is with people who are born gay, or bisexual leaning toward gay, and because of social pressures attempt to live as heterosexuals. These are the people whose lives are destroyed by social and religious pressure. These are the people whose parents disown them, or don't "approve" of their choices (which means they don't approve of them at all). These are the people, just like Frugal's bro, who are much more likely to commit suicide.
If my parents refused to "approve" of my wife, being an independent soul, I would be hurt but not suicidal, and I would choose love and my future over birth and my past. Hopefully that's the way Frugal's bro dealt with it, and he's not devastated by his parents' rejection, instead concentrating on his and his lover's happiness. God bless them.
A few years ago my brother announced to the family that he was a 'furry'; someone who likes to dress up as a fox or bear or hedgehog or whatever, and hang out at furry conventions and online. Then a year later he announced he was gay, and was moving in with his furry partner.
My parents were worried about the furry business, and thought it was weird and disturbing. They didn't know that only 25% of furries are heterosexual. When he came out of the closet, my parents were shocked and saddened. They still are to this day, something like 5 years later. The two of them have been welcome at family gatherings, but the homosexuality or furriness have not been accepted as O.K. We can't consider his partner as family, yet they have been invited and have come to family Christmas get-togethers. My parents don't allow them to sleep together in the same room of their house, so they choose to stay at a hotel. Lately, though, they haven't been attending family get-togethers.
It's conceivable that he could commit suicide. It's not what we want or what anyone wants. However, we can't change God's rules and say that homosexuality is O.K. No parent wants their child to commit suicide. But at the same time, each of us has been given free will by God. The choice to put a gun to your head or to down a bottle of pills is a personal choice.
At a certain point, when a child does things that shouldn't be done, the parent has to let the child go. For the parents to disobey God, too, would be adding to the wrongs.
My parents' hearts are still broken to this day. They've pretty much lost their son. But there is one who has higher power, and they can't go against him even for the sake of their own son.
Your brother was born homosexual.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Exactly. Frugal's brother was born gay. And Frugal's brother has chosen to be a man and stand up for what he is--by sticking by his boyfriend/partner and sticking to his guns (staying at a hotel to avoid his parents' stupid rules, and lately avoiding the family altogether).
OTOH, Frugal has chosen to hide behind the bible, rather than stand up for himself like a man. Sad, really.
Add on to this matter the fact that many religious groups do not agree that homosexuality is acceptable in their ranks but now you want a law saying they aren't allowed to fire someone based on orientation. Congrats, you just violated separation of church & state, the government is now dictating religion.
I'm over simplifying a bit but I think you get the point.
Sorry but you get it wrong here. If we were to follow your logic by being separate the government would have to let some Muslim extremist group cut the hand of the (accused) thief, or a Christian extremist group stone a woman (accused) for infidelity.
It is the opposite, the government sets the rules independently of religious beliefs and all law-abiding citizens are to follow them, whether it is in accordance with their religious opinions or not.
Like I said, selective faith. You refuse to address all of the silly stories told in the bible. You just stick with the ones that serve your purpose. Midless! So ask yourself:
"What would Jesus do?"
During his earthly ministry . . .
\tJesus never called a gay person a sinner.
\tJesus never called a gay person immoral.
\tJesus never asked a gay person to change.
\tJesus never condemned a single gay person.
\tJesus never judged a single gay person.
\tJesus never quoted scripture against a single gay person.
You need to preface that with "the bible doesn't record Jesus as having said..."
Also note that Jesus never said anything that contradicted scripture. If he wanted to say that homosexuality was O.K. now (where it wasn't before), he could have. However, an argument of silence is not implied acceptance. He never contradicted the bible. He did point out where one rule was more important than another. For example, in the case of the good Samaritan, the Priest and the Levite were both 'in the right' not to touch the almost-dead, beat-up guy, because Leviticus forbid them to touch a dead body or blood, lest they should become unclean. But Jesus' point was that 'love your neighbor' is more important than the 'don't touch blood' or 'don't touch a dead body' rules.
Jesus hung out with sinners like prostitutes. He came to show them a better way, not to accept their adultery as being O.K. If Jesus was here today, he'd be hanging out with homosexuals, but he wouldn't be condoning their behavior.
Your brother was born homosexual.
Your brother tried heterosexuality because of social pressures but it did not work out.
Your brother has a furry fetish.
Your brother met a guy in a furry convention. They fell in love with each other.
You can not stand that your brother is happily living his life with his partner while you are on your own struggling with your own sexuality.
Jealous? Not in the least. Questioning my heterosexuality? Not in the least. Funny how you think you know me better than I know myself.
I risk saddening my Father in heaven if I do things against his plan for me. And I make things worse for myself if I go my own way, too. I'd only be making things worse for myself by having sex with someone who's not my wife, and I haven't met her yet. God has given me encouragement that it will happen on his timing, though.
Exactly. Frugal's brother was born gay. And Frugal's brother has chosen to be a man and stand up for what he is--by sticking by his boyfriend/partner and sticking to his guns (staying at a hotel to avoid his parents' stupid rules, and lately avoiding the family altogether).
OTOH, Frugal has chosen to hide behind the bible, rather than stand up for himself like a man. Sad, really.
I used to be STRONGLY agnostic and very pro-gay. I grew up in Madison, WI, which is a very liberal town and has a large gay population. I was interested in any religion BUT Christianity. I was learning about all the other major religions, and had a certain draw towards Native American beliefs.
But someone challenged me to read 'The Case for Christ'. And that, coupled with God's own personal intervention in my life, convinced me that the God of the bible was real.
Understand, I didn't become a Christian because I wanted to. I didn't 'choose to hide behind the bible'. I was shown that God really is God, and everything else in my life changed at that moment, against my own desires.
That's exactly what I mean when I say that your brother stood up for his life, and you "sacrificed" yours to religion. That's a total cop-out.
It sounds like you've had (have?) a terrible life. I feel sorry for you. Life sucks. It truly does. But don't use the excuse of someone (or some book) "forcing your hand" so to speak: your life is what you make of it.
"Against your own desires"
The point was that I didn't want God. But he showed me himself, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse.
It sounds like you've had (have?) a terrible life. I feel sorry for you. Life sucks. It truly does. But don't use the excuse of someone (or some book) "forcing your hand" so to speak: your life is what you make of it.
My life got markedly better after getting to know him. Now I have hope, and a future. As the old hymn says, "He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am his own; and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."
My life is not what I make of it, its what He makes of it. His plans are better than ours.
The point was that I didn't want to be gay. But my lover showed me myself, and made me an offer I couldn't refuse: I fell in love.
My life got markedly better after getting to know him. Now I have hope, and a future. As the old hymn says, "He walks with me and He talks with me, and He tells me I am his own; and the joy we share as we tarry there, none other has ever known."
My life is not what I make of it, its what love makes of it. Love's plans are better than ours.
Another perspective.
You need to preface that with "the bible doesn't record Jesus as having said..."
He never contradicted the bible. He did point out where one rule was more important than another.
Maybe that's because the bible didn't first appear until 400 years AFTER the crucifixion. But I see your back to quoting Leviticus even though you Leviticus was "harsh" and not meant to be followed. What a phony.
Another perspective.
Realize that that is an earthy perspective. From a heavenly perspective, it's a poor choice to reject God for a lower form of love. It has eternal consequences.
Maybe that's because the bible didn't first appear until 400 years AFTER the crucifixion. But I see your back to quoting Leviticus even though you Leviticus was "harsh" and not meant to be followed. What a phony.
The bible of Jesus' day, the Hebrew bible (what Christians call the Old Testament), was intact before Jesus. It started ~1500BC with Moses writing the Torah, and various other history, wisdom, and prophetic books were added through the centuries, but the Hebrew bible was complete before Jesus' time. The New Testament was collected and added after Jesus' time.
I never said Leviticus was not meant to be followed. When Jesus said, "Love your neighbor as yourself," he was quoting Leviticus. Jesus also said, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished." That would include Leviticus. The question is not WHETHER to follow it, but HOW to follow it.
Realize that that is an earthy perspective. From a heavenly perspective, it's a poor choice to reject God for a lower form of love. It has eternal consequences.
So if you really, really think that God is the wrathful, vengeful tyrant you've grown to know from the Old Obsolete Testament, let your brother face Him when that moment arrives. Just don't try to take away from your brother that earthly love that makes him most happy, and failing that, take away the support and respect of a mother, father and brother that he probably also loved quite a lot and is heartbroken to have lost.
I really hope that everyone here can experience peace and love.