<strong>i agree that it's worth paying for. i have no problems shelling out for it. just wanted to share some info that it will probably be a paid upgrade if it was in doubt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The biggest clue to me that it's a PAID upgrade is S.Jobs' response to a question at thr Press Conference. An audience member asked if he bought an Xserve today, would Jaguar Server be a free upgrade, Steve replied that it would be a PAID upgrade... which leads me to believe it will be LONGER than 90 days until it is released. (IMHO)
I'm pretty forgiving of OS X when it comes to the system peformance stuff in general, simply because it is a brand new architecture they're trying to make mature. They're doing a good job of that IMO, but it has a ways to go obviously.
As for the Finder, I'm with Belle, that aside fromm system issues (bottlenecks and any possible quartz issues, etc. though quartz doesn't seem to have much to do with scrolling or resizing kind of performance stuff) there's no good reason why it had to be so poor from the outset. I thnk they have added some worthwhilenew features both under the hood and on top, but they should consider what we had to deal with in regards to some just-plain-poor coding with some of their early apps.
Frankly, I'm rather taken aback by some of your comments, Belle. What version are you running and on what hardware?
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>Even in typing this post, I'm typing about ten letters ahead of what is appearing on the screen. Nice.</strong><hr></blockquote>Damn. That is bad. Though, I can't get OmniWeb to ever lag with typing, even if just I start randomly typing garbage at something like 200 wpm. I can smash on the keyboard like mad and OmniWeb doesn't slow down a bit. If you're using Mozilla or Chimera, well, the text entry bug is well known and specific to those apps. [quote]<strong>It's the fact we're being offered a "new" product with features that should have been available from the very start.<hr></blockquote></strong>Ah, yes, but you could say the same thing about all the "features" we've gotten since System 1.0. Where should Apple draw the line? You said yourself that R&D takes time and money. All the crufty old code from Mac OS 9 can't just magically be switched to work in OSX. These things have to be rewritten and (more importantly) rethought to fit into Mac OS X and the new UI.
[quote]<strong>Try scrolling a ten page document in TextEdit. Try scrolling through a folder in Mail that contains 10 or 20 messages. Try typing an e-mail at around 70wpm and see if the display rate keeps up.</strong><hr></blockquote>Hrmm. I have 200 items in my Mail.app's inbox and it scrolls wonderfully. It's not perfect, as it occasionally briefly skips if I jerk down the scrollbar a fourth of the way or more, but under normal use that is hardly noticeable. The display area for the list is about 730x200 pixels. Again, what kind of hardware are you running on? I'm using a dual 500 G4 w/ OEM AGP Radeon. Yes, something as "simple" as scrolling shouldn't depend on top-end hardware, but scrolling in Mac OS X isn't as simple as it was in Classic and Windows for years and years. [quote]<strong>Try resizing or scrolling the Finder window to find the file that OS X saw fit to move way down to the bottom right all by itself. Try resizing windows in applications.</strong><hr></blockquote>Agreed. Legitimate complaints. These we all see and know.
The sad truth of the matter, I believe, is that people have come to expect Apple to deliver grandiose feats like Steve's famous "One last thing..." line. Mac OS X is relatively a toddler compared to Mac OS 9; yet, many people still expect it to do everything OS 9 without a hitch. People who don't think an upgrade is worth paying for will probably just pirate it. That's fine, just don't cry about it to people who are willing to support their favorite fruit company.
[edit: Oh, that last paragraph wasn't directed at you, Belle, but just to Apple users in general.]
Scott F. and Kickaha, that's cool, thanks for taking the time. But ignoring the updates to applications, or new applications, don't either of you feel that a lot of items on your list should have been in 10.0? In fact in some cases, the items you list were in 10.0 but incomplete. And now you're going to pay for the functionality that should have been there from the beginning.
More than that, it's the performance issues. The first five items on your list Scott F. - do they mean that your dissatisfied with the current performance of OS X?
All I'm suggesting is that there should be two stages to the upgrade. Give us the basics as a free download between now and "late summer" (The new Finder, basic performance improvements, fixed broken stuff like printing), and then charge for an upgrade that includes all the nice new stuff and extras.
I hope you're right about the upgrade, MacsRGood4U.
As for the rumors of compiler improvements, if they do make a big difference, I wonder if software developers will look to charge for *.1 updates that have merely been recompiled?
<strong>The sad truth of the matter, I believe, is that people have come to expect Apple to deliver grandiose feats like Steve's famous "One last thing..." line. Mac OS X is relatively a toddler compared to Mac OS 9; yet, many people still expect it to do everything OS 9 without a hitch. People who don't think an upgrade is worth paying for will probably just pirate it. That's fine, just don't cry about it to people who are willing to support their favorite fruit company.
[edit: Oh, that last paragraph wasn't directed at you, Belle, but just to Apple users in general.]</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Everyone here who knows me knows I like OS X and will pay for the upgrade alongside everyone else.
I'm just trying to be objective about it. If Microsoft release Longhorn, and it has the kind of performance issues that OS X suffers, then Microsoft charge customers to fix them, we'll be laughing our collective asses off.
Apple users are very willing to put up with an awful lot of crap. Nothing new, I suppose.
maybe that's my dual 800 (i will test that soon on my ibook 600) BUT scrolling with 663 messages in mail is really not a problem for me or for mail... really snappy ... but big attachments (like 5 Mb JPEG) are really slow to draw on screen.
I have also a folder with 2357 items and it's really fast too (but that's in column view).
I think you need to work with this OS and not with 9 in mind.
<strong>Scott F. and Kickaha, that's cool, thanks for taking the time. But ignoring the updates to applications, or new applications, don't either of you feel that a lot of items on your list should have been in 10.0?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The only ones I can think of that I felt should have been in 10.0, or done right, are USB Printer Sharing and MIDI.
The rest are either dev tool updates that didn't exist until now (gcc3.1), recompiles that rely on those heavily, or brand spankin' new things that haven't been on this platform before (or in some cases, any platform).
I don't consider Address Book 2.0 to be an upgrade to AB 1.0, except by association of the name. This is a major demo piece of how to unify and share data across the OS, as opposed to the 1.0, which was a silly little app with a private API that we inherited from NeXT. It's all new, and relies on the LDAP layer, which is also new.
maybe that's my dual 800 (i will test that soon on my ibook 600) BUT scrolling with 663 messages in mail is really not a problem for me or for mail... really snappy ... but big attachments (like 5 Mb JPEG) are really slow to draw on screen.
I have also a folder with 2357 items and it's really fast too (but that's in column view).
I think you need to work with this OS and not with 9 in mind.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, it's subjective. I'm comparing OS X to daily use of OS 9, IRIX, AIX, and Windows XP. It's hard not to, though, because the experience is so disappointing.
While I understand that OS X is a whole new doughnut and therefore needs some forgiveness, it's also version 10.0 of the Mac OS, so it's not that unreasonable to expect not to have to pay for parity in performance and features with OS 9.0.
...I'm comparing OS X to daily use of OS 9, IRIX, AIX, and Windows XP...</strong><hr></blockquote>
So if you do so, please compare OS X 10.0.0 with the first version of windows NT ... and i will be fair, compare it with NT 3.5.1
No apps, no games, no drivers... comparing to Win 95. It takes MS SEVEN years to move this system in the hands of every people.
People can ask FREE upgrade to MS for NT 4 & 2000 & XP... And i think that for longhorn MS will again look twice at Aqua & Quartz to not reproduce the same mistake that (i admit) Apple did with a their new interface.
I will pay Apple for Jaguar and i will be happy to do so because they do a really great job in ONLY one year.
<strong>So if you do so, please compare OS X 10.0.0 with the first version of windows NT ... and i will be fair, compare it with NT 3.5.1
No apps, no games, no drivers... comparing to Win 95. It takes MS SEVEN years to move this system in the hands of every people.
People can ask FREE upgrade to MS for NT 4 & 2000 & XP... And i think that for longhorn MS will again look twice at Aqua & Quartz to not reproduce the same mistake that (i admit) Apple did with a their new interface.
I will pay Apple for Jaguar and i will be happy to do so because they do a really great job in ONLY one year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not quite the same. NT was a new product moving into a new market in parallel. We can perhaps compare the original version of Mac OS X Server with NT. Even so, the first version of NT didn't have the same fundamental flaws in performance and function of the basic OS.
And you have to pity Microsoft on the driver issue. Apple has a tiny, tiny amount of hardware to support in comparison, and yet we're not there yet.
*cough* I'm sorry, did you just say that we should *pity* MS for drivers? Only for motherboard support, possibly, and they have few enough standard architectures to deal with that I'll pass on pitying them.
Third party drivers are no more MS's responsibility than they are Apple's.
<strong>*cough* I'm sorry, did you just say that we should *pity* MS for drivers? Only for motherboard support, possibly, and they have few enough standard architectures to deal with that I'll pass on pitying them.
Third party drivers are no more MS's responsibility than they are Apple's.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And graphics cards, perhaps? Apple is struggling to support cards in machines a couple of years old. Cards that Apple provided. In Apple's hardware. From one manufacturer.
Sorry, nitpicking. It really is an unfair comparison, but Microsoft's task in providing fundamental hardware driver support in NT (motherboards, graphics, displays, mice, ...) was colossal compared to Apple's task, and therefore I think they deserve pity.
It's not really an issue relevant to this thread, though.
Well, the point is moot to me since i just sold my G4 466 on ebay last week, however, I will not be buying a new machine until Apple makes clear what they will be charging for 10.2. New G4's are probably coming anyway. As for anyone who purchased 10.1 that is eager to pay once again for 10.2 you clearly are a fool. Apple just loves fools. Makes Steve's day. That way he doesn't have to take the time to think about giving his customers value, just profits for Micro, er, Apple............................................. ......
I can't imagine being eager to pay for an upgrade. Rather, I will begrudgingly pay for one.
OT: As for NT, it helps that it had the push and pull from Microsoft to pull it off. Apple's problems are not just that their own apps need work to one degree or another, but they don't have a lot of pull with these third party companies. MS is an 800 lbs. gorilla. Apple is a lemur. Which one is more likely to twist some arms?
So, MacsRGood4U, are you sure with coupons Jaguar will be 20!? How do you know? If so, this is fine with me!
I hope we can make a full boot disc from Jaguar, because a simple "update" means if things go haywire (I don't enjoy screwing with my computer when I lose work and have deadlines), then I will have to go all the way back to OS X 10.0.3! Not something I would trust, from what I hear of pre-10.1 releases.
Oh, and NO ONE has mentioned this, since I made a thread of it. What happened to that ****data loss bug***** in OS X (10.1.4 has not fixed this to my knowledge.) Read much about this here:
MacOS X has frightful bugs to solve, and Apple has taken their merry time making stupid eye candy like Dock effects. What could be worse than data loss?
Props to Macintouch. I'll definitely have to read this site more when Jaguar comes out, to see if any partitions are deleted by its installer!
<strong>after the massive performance boost my g3 450 b&w recieved with the jag dev cd i'd donate the $20, it's that good, and so is ichat. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats good news. As long as there is a very noticable performance boost on older machines people won't be pissed off..............................
I think you are right, its going to cost upwards of $50 ($99 is my guess). However, I am positively not going to pay for this, no way sir. I received with my Tibook a 10.0.3 that was completely unusable and the 10.1 just made it usable. A _lot_ of stuff is still broken (sendmail is only one example, speed of the Finder another) and QE is going to do me a fat lot of good with my RAGE 128/8MB video chip.
Seems to me, Apple is not even trying to reach Sys 9's speed on my Ti. So bad company, no donut.
Then perhaps Apple should have trickled out those updates over the last few months instead of giving us minor hardware support and security updates?
I'll be happy to pay for Jaguar, but I want a refund for the new Finder which should be given to every OS X user for free. I feel cheated that I have to pay for that improvement. </strong><hr></blockquote>
Comments
<strong>i agree that it's worth paying for. i have no problems shelling out for it. just wanted to share some info that it will probably be a paid upgrade if it was in doubt.</strong><hr></blockquote>
The biggest clue to me that it's a PAID upgrade is S.Jobs' response to a question at thr Press Conference. An audience member asked if he bought an Xserve today, would Jaguar Server be a free upgrade, Steve replied that it would be a PAID upgrade... which leads me to believe it will be LONGER than 90 days until it is released. (IMHO)
As for the Finder, I'm with Belle, that aside fromm system issues (bottlenecks and any possible quartz issues, etc. though quartz doesn't seem to have much to do with scrolling or resizing kind of performance stuff) there's no good reason why it had to be so poor from the outset. I thnk they have added some worthwhilenew features both under the hood and on top, but they should consider what we had to deal with in regards to some just-plain-poor coding with some of their early apps.
[quote]Originally posted by Belle:
<strong>Even in typing this post, I'm typing about ten letters ahead of what is appearing on the screen. Nice.</strong><hr></blockquote>Damn. That is bad. Though, I can't get OmniWeb to ever lag with typing, even if just I start randomly typing garbage at something like 200 wpm. I can smash on the keyboard like mad and OmniWeb doesn't slow down a bit. If you're using Mozilla or Chimera, well, the text entry bug is well known and specific to those apps. [quote]<strong>It's the fact we're being offered a "new" product with features that should have been available from the very start.<hr></blockquote></strong>Ah, yes, but you could say the same thing about all the "features" we've gotten since System 1.0. Where should Apple draw the line? You said yourself that R&D takes time and money. All the crufty old code from Mac OS 9 can't just magically be switched to work in OSX. These things have to be rewritten and (more importantly) rethought to fit into Mac OS X and the new UI.
[quote]<strong>Try scrolling a ten page document in TextEdit. Try scrolling through a folder in Mail that contains 10 or 20 messages. Try typing an e-mail at around 70wpm and see if the display rate keeps up.</strong><hr></blockquote>Hrmm. I have 200 items in my Mail.app's inbox and it scrolls wonderfully. It's not perfect, as it occasionally briefly skips if I jerk down the scrollbar a fourth of the way or more, but under normal use that is hardly noticeable. The display area for the list is about 730x200 pixels. Again, what kind of hardware are you running on? I'm using a dual 500 G4 w/ OEM AGP Radeon. Yes, something as "simple" as scrolling shouldn't depend on top-end hardware, but scrolling in Mac OS X isn't as simple as it was in Classic and Windows for years and years. [quote]<strong>Try resizing or scrolling the Finder window to find the file that OS X saw fit to move way down to the bottom right all by itself. Try resizing windows in applications.</strong><hr></blockquote>Agreed. Legitimate complaints. These we all see and know.
The sad truth of the matter, I believe, is that people have come to expect Apple to deliver grandiose feats like Steve's famous "One last thing..." line. Mac OS X is relatively a toddler compared to Mac OS 9; yet, many people still expect it to do everything OS 9 without a hitch. People who don't think an upgrade is worth paying for will probably just pirate it. That's fine, just don't cry about it to people who are willing to support their favorite fruit company.
[edit: Oh, that last paragraph wasn't directed at you, Belle, but just to Apple users in general.]
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: starfleetX ]</p>
More than that, it's the performance issues. The first five items on your list Scott F. - do they mean that your dissatisfied with the current performance of OS X?
All I'm suggesting is that there should be two stages to the upgrade. Give us the basics as a free download between now and "late summer" (The new Finder, basic performance improvements, fixed broken stuff like printing), and then charge for an upgrade that includes all the nice new stuff and extras.
I hope you're right about the upgrade, MacsRGood4U.
As for the rumors of compiler improvements, if they do make a big difference, I wonder if software developers will look to charge for *.1 updates that have merely been recompiled?
<strong>The sad truth of the matter, I believe, is that people have come to expect Apple to deliver grandiose feats like Steve's famous "One last thing..." line. Mac OS X is relatively a toddler compared to Mac OS 9; yet, many people still expect it to do everything OS 9 without a hitch. People who don't think an upgrade is worth paying for will probably just pirate it. That's fine, just don't cry about it to people who are willing to support their favorite fruit company.
[edit: Oh, that last paragraph wasn't directed at you, Belle, but just to Apple users in general.]</strong><hr></blockquote>
That's kind of the point I'm trying to make. Everyone here who knows me knows I like OS X and will pay for the upgrade alongside everyone else.
I'm just trying to be objective about it. If Microsoft release Longhorn, and it has the kind of performance issues that OS X suffers, then Microsoft charge customers to fix them, we'll be laughing our collective asses off.
Apple users are very willing to put up with an awful lot of crap. Nothing new, I suppose.
maybe that's my dual 800 (i will test that soon on my ibook 600) BUT scrolling with 663 messages in mail is really not a problem for me or for mail... really snappy ... but big attachments (like 5 Mb JPEG) are really slow to draw on screen.
I have also a folder with 2357 items and it's really fast too (but that's in column view).
I think you need to work with this OS and not with 9 in mind.
<strong>Scott F. and Kickaha, that's cool, thanks for taking the time. But ignoring the updates to applications, or new applications, don't either of you feel that a lot of items on your list should have been in 10.0?</strong><hr></blockquote>
The only ones I can think of that I felt should have been in 10.0, or done right, are USB Printer Sharing and MIDI.
The rest are either dev tool updates that didn't exist until now (gcc3.1), recompiles that rely on those heavily, or brand spankin' new things that haven't been on this platform before (or in some cases, any platform).
I don't consider Address Book 2.0 to be an upgrade to AB 1.0, except by association of the name. This is a major demo piece of how to unify and share data across the OS, as opposed to the 1.0, which was a silly little app with a private API that we inherited from NeXT. It's all new, and relies on the LDAP layer, which is also new.
<strong>belle,
maybe that's my dual 800 (i will test that soon on my ibook 600) BUT scrolling with 663 messages in mail is really not a problem for me or for mail... really snappy ... but big attachments (like 5 Mb JPEG) are really slow to draw on screen.
I have also a folder with 2357 items and it's really fast too (but that's in column view).
I think you need to work with this OS and not with 9 in mind.</strong><hr></blockquote>
True, it's subjective. I'm comparing OS X to daily use of OS 9, IRIX, AIX, and Windows XP. It's hard not to, though, because the experience is so disappointing.
While I understand that OS X is a whole new doughnut and therefore needs some forgiveness, it's also version 10.0 of the Mac OS, so it's not that unreasonable to expect not to have to pay for parity in performance and features with OS 9.0.
<strong>
...I'm comparing OS X to daily use of OS 9, IRIX, AIX, and Windows XP...</strong><hr></blockquote>
So if you do so, please compare OS X 10.0.0 with the first version of windows NT ... and i will be fair, compare it with NT 3.5.1
No apps, no games, no drivers... comparing to Win 95. It takes MS SEVEN years to move this system in the hands of every people.
People can ask FREE upgrade to MS for NT 4 & 2000 & XP... And i think that for longhorn MS will again look twice at Aqua & Quartz to not reproduce the same mistake that (i admit) Apple did with a their new interface.
I will pay Apple for Jaguar and i will be happy to do so because they do a really great job in ONLY one year.
<strong>So if you do so, please compare OS X 10.0.0 with the first version of windows NT ... and i will be fair, compare it with NT 3.5.1
No apps, no games, no drivers... comparing to Win 95. It takes MS SEVEN years to move this system in the hands of every people.
People can ask FREE upgrade to MS for NT 4 & 2000 & XP... And i think that for longhorn MS will again look twice at Aqua & Quartz to not reproduce the same mistake that (i admit) Apple did with a their new interface.
I will pay Apple for Jaguar and i will be happy to do so because they do a really great job in ONLY one year.</strong><hr></blockquote>
It's not quite the same. NT was a new product moving into a new market in parallel. We can perhaps compare the original version of Mac OS X Server with NT. Even so, the first version of NT didn't have the same fundamental flaws in performance and function of the basic OS.
And you have to pity Microsoft on the driver issue. Apple has a tiny, tiny amount of hardware to support in comparison, and yet we're not there yet.
Third party drivers are no more MS's responsibility than they are Apple's.
<strong>*cough* I'm sorry, did you just say that we should *pity* MS for drivers? Only for motherboard support, possibly, and they have few enough standard architectures to deal with that I'll pass on pitying them.
Third party drivers are no more MS's responsibility than they are Apple's.</strong><hr></blockquote>
And graphics cards, perhaps? Apple is struggling to support cards in machines a couple of years old. Cards that Apple provided. In Apple's hardware. From one manufacturer.
Sorry, nitpicking. It really is an unfair comparison, but Microsoft's task in providing fundamental hardware driver support in NT (motherboards, graphics, displays, mice, ...) was colossal compared to Apple's task, and therefore I think they deserve pity.
It's not really an issue relevant to this thread, though.
[ 05-17-2002: Message edited by: Belle ]</p>
OT: As for NT, it helps that it had the push and pull from Microsoft to pull it off. Apple's problems are not just that their own apps need work to one degree or another, but they don't have a lot of pull with these third party companies. MS is an 800 lbs. gorilla. Apple is a lemur. Which one is more likely to twist some arms?
So, MacsRGood4U, are you sure with coupons Jaguar will be 20!? How do you know? If so, this is fine with me!
I hope we can make a full boot disc from Jaguar, because a simple "update" means if things go haywire (I don't enjoy screwing with my computer when I lose work and have deadlines), then I will have to go all the way back to OS X 10.0.3! Not something I would trust, from what I hear of pre-10.1 releases.
Oh, and NO ONE has mentioned this, since I made a thread of it. What happened to that ****data loss bug***** in OS X (10.1.4 has not fixed this to my knowledge.) Read much about this here:
<a href="http://www.macintouch.com/mosxreader10.1.3pt08.html" target="_blank">http://www.macintouch.com/mosxreader10.1.3pt08.html</a>
MacOS X has frightful bugs to solve, and Apple has taken their merry time making stupid eye candy like Dock effects. What could be worse than data loss?
Props to Macintouch. I'll definitely have to read this site more when Jaguar comes out, to see if any partitions are deleted by its installer!
<strong>after the massive performance boost my g3 450 b&w recieved with the jag dev cd i'd donate the $20, it's that good, and so is ichat. :cool: </strong><hr></blockquote>
Thats good news. As long as there is a very noticable performance boost on older machines people won't be pissed off..............................
Seems to me, Apple is not even trying to reach Sys 9's speed on my Ti. So bad company, no donut.
<strong>
Then perhaps Apple should have trickled out those updates over the last few months instead of giving us minor hardware support and security updates?
I'll be happy to pay for Jaguar, but I want a refund for the new Finder which should be given to every OS X user for free. I feel cheated that I have to pay for that improvement.
Hahah make us PAY for a Cocoa finder. Damn them!
<strong>Will we be paying for Jaguar? You bet! Will it be worth it? You bet!! Will people whine? You bet!!!</strong><hr></blockquote>
No matter what you give them, they will complain. That is just the nature of our species. It's never enough.