For the few of you who happen to think that it's okay to go into someone else's place of business and "hack" the computers, whether they're display or not, please post your business address so that I can come by and hack yours. You shouldn't mind, since it's all just good natured fun.
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Originally Posted by knightlie
If these were plain, simple vandals everyone would agree with the manager, but as they are "hackers," people seem to think we should bow down to their superior skilz and all that BS. Good riddance to them, it's a pity they weren't arrested.
What everyone needs to realize is that these kids did nothing more than what thousands of kids do every day by downloading programs or changing desktop appearances on demo computers at your local big box electronics store. Basically, I see a bunch of technically-illiterate people throwing up the red flags because they hear the term "hacking" used and thus emotionally associate these harmless kids with real "hackers" that are responsible for economic loss, identity theft, etc. Remember, the only thing the kids did was visit a website that allows 3rd party applications to be installed on the iPhone. This iPhone was NOT someone's personal property, but a store display unit that is provided for customers to play with and become accustomed to the device. Just like my analogy with teens who change the desktop wallpaper of in-store computers to something inappropriate, It at most requires a firm "please do not change things on the display units" from an employee and nothing more. What's funny is that most stores don't even allow employees to chase actual shop-lifters out of the store for fear of their own safety. In this case, the store manager not only chased the kids down the street but involved the city police for such an inconsequential situation. This 3-hour circus should have taken 5 seconds.
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Originally Posted by jmadlena
I agree that the punishment seems disproportionate to the crime, but the excuse that they kids should be allowed to "explore" is bull. Such a hippy answer. It doesn't matter if there was ABSOLUTELY ZERO permanent consequences (they could have bricked it for all they knew). It is not their property, and so they have no right to disobey the owner's wishes with that property.
And I really disagree that the store manager should be fired, and the kids let off the hook. What kind of Bizarro world are we living in today? Perhaps they didn't deserve a police interrogation, but that is what you risk when you do things you aren't supposed to.
PS And yes, they did vandalize the property. It doesn't matter if it only takes "3 minutes" to fix. Imagine if they had to do it to every iPhone every day? That is a lot of extra work. It doesn't matter how little time it takes to repair, it doesn't make it right because it is only "3 minutes." If they wanted to hack an iPhone, they should have bought it.
I never said anything about "letting the kids explore", and the reason why I said the manager should be fired is because of his wholesale lack of judgment in physically chasing the kids down the street and involving the police for such nonsense. The damaging PR itself is enough to have this looney thrown out.
Also, again, the kids did not "vandalize" anyone's property ---- the iPhone continued to have exactly the same functionality that existed prior to modification and did not need to be "repaired". They downloaded a game for god sakes. Funnier still is the fact that the website they visited that allowed them to install the 3rd party game actually *FIXES* the existing security hole.
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Originally Posted by ncee
It's not what they did it to, it's the fact that THEY FU%$CK around with some that DIDN'T belong to them. Hey leave your MBP, iPhone, iPod around, that them pick it up and FU$%#*CK around with it, and then tell me you are ok with it ? NOT!
Are you serious? They weren't messing with someone's personal iPhone they grabbed from a purse! they were playing with the DEMO UNITS PROVIDED BY THE STORE FOR CUSTOMERS TO INTERACT WITH! That is entirely different than affecting someone's personal property. And for your crap analogy about a car dealership, what they did would be like changing the radio stations on a car.
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Originally Posted by aresee
There is a great deal of difference between the acts. Allowing a potential customer to add Safari bookmarks is a demonstration of the devices functions and capabilities... For all of you who think that this is ok, do you think it is acceptable to go around adding files and apps to display computers?
How is downloading a game not "a demonstration of a device's capabilities"? And I'm glad you brought up the case of kids messing with display computers. That happens thousands of times every day, and you sure as hell don't see kids being accosted down the street and arrested by local police.
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Originally Posted by knightlie
I think you can cross "Store Manager" off your list off potential employment options.
That's ironic since I run a network of online stores.
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Originally Posted by cnocbui
I think you are mentally challenged. Someone else has already drawn attention to the illegal activities of Apples founders when they were kids. So how did those kids turn out again? How could you write such drivel after reading such a brilliant example - or didn't you read it and comprehend the irony? Just to help you understand the previous sentence, here's a hint, irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals. Your extrapolations are extreme, rendering your argument nonsensical.
"irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals." -- HAHAH! that is a good one.
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Originally Posted by gar
It's criminal behavior...
Next time they get bored, they rape a 13 year old girl just to explore their potential and have some fun! Or come after you with a baseball bat to explore the thickness of your skull, take your MacBook from your cold hands, remove your account and put a new password on it... just for fun!
It isn't fun, it is vandalism.
It isn't exploring, it is boredom
dump kids... bah
hmmm.. I don't think your nonsense even deserves a reply... bah.
Absolutely. The sickness of grandeur. Among few examples:
- Opening iTunes to .mp3 but not .avi - don't you see a paradox there as both are formats for 'stolen' playbacks?
You clearly misunderstand why they don't support AVI. Not only is AVI an obsolete format, it's also a competitor's format. DivX is a frankenformat too, no reason to support such an odd contraption except for the pirates, who don't seem to know better than use bizarre file formats.
Apple doesn't support WMA / WMV because it's a competitor's format. AAC is actually an open format. MP3 is a defacto open format.
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- Quicktime - who the hell uses it anyway?
I do use it. Keep in mind that Quicktime isn't just an app, it's a framework. The Quicktime you see is just a front-end. If you use iTunes to play music or videos, you're using Quicktime too. If you use EyeTV, you are using Quicktime. If you use iMovie, you're using Quicktime.
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- Disgrace with not fully enabling all Bluetooth capabilities on iPhone - that could give so much more to a user (apart from the downside of being attacked by proximity advertising messages).
I do wish Apple supported more Bluetooth stuff.
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- Tying all their machines to Safari - which sucks more and more to compare with its counterparts (have switched to Firefox since 2 years now, and never going back).
Switching browsers takes maybe three mouse clicks.
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- Their increasing distrust of all innovation by Adobe and Google (apart from allowing youtube on iPhone, ironically - since youtube is also by an large only a bazaar of 'illegal' uploads).
I don't know what Google innovation you are talking about that Apple is distrusting.
With Adobe, there are both legitimate technical reasons not to support flash yet, though the real deal-killer within Apple might be about ego or licensing terms. I wouldn't run flash on a 600MHz computer, why would I want to run it on a 600MHz iPhone?
People like you overly downplay how much user-generated media is on YouTube.
If they took a screwdriver to an iPhone and started cutting wires this might not be so absurd. They did NOT vandalize any merchandise.
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Originally Posted by laurence13
If something breaks then you just replace it with a spare from the back room and re-image it. 15 minutes later everything is back to normal.
If it takes any work to fix it, then you'd be right, but it does take time to fix. That time costs money. It might cost the store $15 or so to fix. Don't just cite the cost in wages either, there's a lot more to how much an hour of an employees time costs than just wages. It's not necessarily a lot, but it's best not to let a lot of kids do it repeatedly.
I don't blame the kids too much for not thinking it through, but hacking someone ELSE's phone is what the problem is here. As to whether the entire Apple organization REALLY puts huge effort into tracking these kids around the world, or whether it's just what some manager SAID would happen when he snapped at them, is another matter. (And having seen how some kids behave in stores, I can well imagine a manager eventually snapping and saying things that went too far.)
It's just chest-thumping. The guy wants to sound like he's being serious when he's being a bit fruity.
It sounds like the threat that used to be made decades ago "this will be put in your permanent record!".
There is no meeting of the minds as far as referring to any type of contract law here. Taking pictures of the two kids is not "further" commercial activity, but to protect their physical property from further damage by these individuals. The damage is seriously minor. Vertical and horizontal penalties don't apply here since this is a private business. They can only be complainants, not prosecutors of this activity (other than being plaintiffs in a civil action to recover damages). There is no condition that would permit Apple's counsel to appointed as special prosecutor because the state/city/municipality is unable to proceed. I fail to see the "prosecution" here. Are you a first year?
You very correctly summarised my point (see the last sentence), as to the rest - you just got distracted ... I repeat - the only thing that Apple could (and should) have done in the circumstances was to become private complainants in criminal proceedings; but they chose not to. And the kids probably signed a paper consenting to the release of photos in return for Apple's promise of no criminal complaint. That's all there is to this story.
You are wrong though if you think that a unilateral release of the photos with the heading such as this one - even in the imputed circumstances - can be justified as such. And please let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy law in different Western jurisdictions. Moreover - in some countries this would raise an additional issue of a breach of "image rights" ... It is enough to say that the qualification of the release of photos would be different depending on a country - but the fact remains that the issue would be the one for the court, and the one which would warrant a careful consideration of competing interests, not an outright dismissal in favour of preventing "damage by these individuals" (as your post purports to imply).
If they took a screwdriver to an iPhone and started cutting wires this might not be so absurd. They did NOT vandalize any merchandise. They did show how much cooler the iPhone will be in a few weeks when Apple corrects their initial blunder of assuming all worthwhile ideas will come from Apple. They made the same sort of blunder with the Lisa and weren't able to recover from it in time with third party apps. If you are an Apple shareholder you can only hope that the iPhone won't be rendered passé by third party apps on Android.
The other possibility which might be an issue is whether the parents of these teen-agers from Palo Alto are both rich and pissed off. The manager ran down the street and dragged the kids back into the store over this incident? Have you heard of false imprisonment? They didn't shoplift or vandalize anything. If they were my kids I can guarantee I would be talking to a lawyer about bringing action. They were tinkering with a display model which was on display for people to tinker with and see how it operates. I know the store employees aren't exactly Apple engineers but this level of stupidity reflects poorly on Apple.
Some good points there. Unlike by some of those hard-line Apple cheerleaders who are too blindfolded to allow a possibility that this treatment may (and I stress the word may) have been just a tad too excessive? We don't know all the facts, so why rush with conclusions?
I don't know what Google innovation you are talking about that Apple is distrusting.
Google Maps, for starters, would be a killer ap to go with GPS o iPhone2.
And as far as Flash goes - I do think it's about "ego" more than anything else.
The bottom line of the initial message that accused Apple of resembling Microsoft was, to my mind, that Apple always used to be about innovation and being a few steps ahead of the game - for the benefit of the demanding consumer. But now it is increasingly about protecting the existing technology at the expense of development. Worse still, it is increasingly about big-company ambitions and about serving the "average, common" user - hence the Microsoft reference.
How is downloading a game not "a demonstration of a device's capabilities"? And I'm glad you brought up the case of kids messing with display computers. That happens thousands of times every day, and you sure as hell don't see kids being accosted down the street and arrested by local police.
That it's happens thousands of times still doesn't make it right. It is wrong, thousands of times wrong. They are modifying the advertisements of what the vendor is selling. Potentially customers could see your downloaded game and buy the product expecting to find the game and then be disappointed to find the game was not there when they got home. Now your vendor has to deal with an unhappy customer. Not right at all, these kids and the thousands of others you site are vandals pure and simple. The cost of the repair is irrelevant and minor to the potential cost of goodwill to the vendor.
But Apple basically uses Google Maps already. Are you suggesting that Google would pull support fo that back? I don't know what that would gain.
Have you tried using Flash on a 600MHz computer lately?
Just to remind people ---- as I'm a windows user for time being ---- the Flash plug-in for some reason seems much more resource hungry and computationally demanding on Mac OSX than it is on Windows. I believe this was even more pronounced on the POWER architecture, but apparently still exists on Intel Macs. Assuming it's a problem with the plumbing from Flash to Cocoa/Quartz, this would then carry over to the iPhone, would it not? Also, the ARM architecture may be a another source of inefficiency. I'd bet that Apple has already got flash running on the iPhone, and the performance sucks big time. Anyone know the details on this? Anyone know about someone getting the OSX flash plugin to work on the iPhone?
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Originally Posted by aresee
That it's happens thousands of times still doesn't make it right. It is wrong, thousands of times wrong. They are modifying the advertisements of what the vendor is selling. Potentially customers could see your downloaded game and buy the product expecting to find the game and then be disappointed to find the game was not there when they got home. Now your vendor has to deal with an unhappy customer. Not right at all, these kids and the thousands of others you site are vandals pure and simple. The cost of the repair is irrelevant and minor to the potential cost of goodwill to the vendor.
You are correct in that what they did was probably technically wrong, but i sure don't consider these kids vandals. My primary point was that this situation should have been dealt with by a simple, but firm "please do not modify the display models". It should have taken 2 minutes and then been over instead of this ludicrous situation of a store manager chasing kids down the street and calling the police. In fact, it's a waste of time event talking about this anymore.
Just to remind people ---- as I'm a windows user for time being ---- the Flash plug-in for some reason seems much more resource hungry and computationally demanding on Mac OSX than it is on Windows.
In this case, I don't think it matters. Even on a Windows computer, something running at 600MHz, I don't think flash was good enough, I avoided it whenever possible. Even on faster computers I tend to block it. And a phone is quite a bit more limited in resources than my computer was.
You very correctly summarised my point (see the last sentence), as to the rest - you just got distracted ... I repeat - the only thing that Apple could (and should) have done in the circumstances was to become private complainants in criminal proceedings; but they chose not to. And the kids probably signed a paper consenting to the release of photos in return for Apple's promise of no criminal complaint. That's all there is to this story.
You are wrong though if you think that a unilateral release of the photos with the heading such as this one - even in the imputed circumstances - can be justified as such. And please let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy law in different Western jurisdictions. Moreover - in some countries this would raise an additional issue of a breach of "image rights" ... It is enough to say that the qualification of the release of photos would be different depending on a country - but the fact remains that the issue would be the one for the court, and the one which would warrant a careful consideration of competing interests, not an outright dismissal in favour of preventing "damage by these individuals" (as your post purports to imply).
It doesn't work that way in California. You cannot simply elect to become a private complainant in a criminal proceeding. You make a criminal complaint or the police make it on your behalf after you sign off on their complaint/report. The local municipality then goes on it from there.
You make a rather large assumption regarding the quid pro quo between the young men and Apple with regards to release and the promise not to follow through with a criminal complaint. I guess as the hasty manager ran down the street with his digital camera, he happened to consult Apple's Legal Department, print the release and haul ass down the street.
You evade the real answer, as you do not have it, by stating "let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy laws in different Western jurisdictions" and then go on to compare. You are correct, initially...let's not compare. It is the state of California and the laws govering the United States that apply. There is no need of discussion of "different Western jurisdictions". We are talking about these two men in the state of California. No one posed the question "what if this occurred in Paris or London?"
Statements like "careful consideration of competing interests" is what is terrible about the legal profession in general. Every case is a landmark case. Ugh...give that crap up. I am an attorney and I can't stand when attorneys stand on ceremony when the situation does not deserve it. It would be the greatest injustice to have this situation debated in the highest court in the land when there are far more important matters like abortion, same-sex marriage, parental rights and numerous Constitutional violations/extensions, to name a few, that need to be considered.
A perfect example of this is all of the time and energy wasted by the RIAA. I have defended a number of cases against them in my criminal practice and have read their contribution to pre-sentencing investigations. Essentially, they purport to represent the interest of the victim record companies and artists and provide the court with their ridiculous assessment of the damages from the records sold (ie: fake cd case, they stated that each cd had a retail value of $27.99). The record labels and the artists do not sell the cd's at retail so that number is inflated to begin with. But in the report they provide to the court, they state that the money gained from the restitution does not go back to the record labels or the artists, but is paid directly to the RIAA to continue to bring lawsuits and be involved in seeking restitution in criminal cases. It is a self-perpetuating machine that serves only their own ends. Currently, there is litigation pending to remove their direct involvement as they are not a direct party to the damages incurred and should not receive any monetary reward (as far as the criminal cases are concerned).
I have been known to change the channel on a Directv display at a store to watch a game that was on, I have, just as a goof, changed the screensavers and wallpapers on display PCs at bestbuy, I have done all kinds of stupid things that I do not wanna talk about, far worse than jailbreaking an iphone...never been kicked out of anyplace...
Oh yea, one time, at the rype ole' age of 16, I maxed out the volume on every demo receiver and amp in a home theater room at a big electronics store, waited outside a few minutes and hilarity ensued.
Apple will be killed by its own self lust, The culture at Apple is unsustainable long term, odds are those kids are or were great apple customers, how many ipods do they own? iphones too maybe? Macs? iTunes downloads? I know of 6 people under 25 who have iphones, 5 of us have them cracked and jailbroke...Please steve, arrest me, I DOUBLE DARE YA
Next time they get bored, they rape a 13 year old girl just to explore their potential and have some fun!
Or come after you with a baseball bat to explore the thickness of your skull, take your MacBook from your cold hands, remove your account and put a new password on it... just for fun!
It isn't fun, it is vandalism.
It isn't exploring, it is boredom
dump kids... bah
I just wanted to point out how ridiculous this post is.
oh my.... why not throw them in prison, send them to a boot camp or let his holiness mr steve jobs I torture them personally... - in twenty years time they might become one of those famous examples: "thrown out by apple, employed by whoever - millionaires today"...
apple is going all nuts - as much as I love my iPod and Mac, I don't agree with Apples philosophy of doing business at all - they are becoming worse than Microsoft in more and more cases...
Wow calm down, you act as if Jobs personally banned these guys. The whole campany isn't responsible for one managers actions.
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Keep this photo on file. These kids may be on the cover of Fortune in 5- 10 years.
(Or of course, they could be sleeping on their mom's sofa in the basement.)
For the few of you who happen to think that it's okay to go into someone else's place of business and "hack" the computers, whether they're display or not, please post your business address so that I can come by and hack yours. You shouldn't mind, since it's all just good natured fun.
If these were plain, simple vandals everyone would agree with the manager, but as they are "hackers," people seem to think we should bow down to their superior skilz and all that BS. Good riddance to them, it's a pity they weren't arrested.
What everyone needs to realize is that these kids did nothing more than what thousands of kids do every day by downloading programs or changing desktop appearances on demo computers at your local big box electronics store. Basically, I see a bunch of technically-illiterate people throwing up the red flags because they hear the term "hacking" used and thus emotionally associate these harmless kids with real "hackers" that are responsible for economic loss, identity theft, etc. Remember, the only thing the kids did was visit a website that allows 3rd party applications to be installed on the iPhone. This iPhone was NOT someone's personal property, but a store display unit that is provided for customers to play with and become accustomed to the device. Just like my analogy with teens who change the desktop wallpaper of in-store computers to something inappropriate, It at most requires a firm "please do not change things on the display units" from an employee and nothing more. What's funny is that most stores don't even allow employees to chase actual shop-lifters out of the store for fear of their own safety. In this case, the store manager not only chased the kids down the street but involved the city police for such an inconsequential situation. This 3-hour circus should have taken 5 seconds.
I agree that the punishment seems disproportionate to the crime, but the excuse that they kids should be allowed to "explore" is bull. Such a hippy answer. It doesn't matter if there was ABSOLUTELY ZERO permanent consequences (they could have bricked it for all they knew). It is not their property, and so they have no right to disobey the owner's wishes with that property.
And I really disagree that the store manager should be fired, and the kids let off the hook. What kind of Bizarro world are we living in today? Perhaps they didn't deserve a police interrogation, but that is what you risk when you do things you aren't supposed to.
PS And yes, they did vandalize the property. It doesn't matter if it only takes "3 minutes" to fix. Imagine if they had to do it to every iPhone every day? That is a lot of extra work. It doesn't matter how little time it takes to repair, it doesn't make it right because it is only "3 minutes." If they wanted to hack an iPhone, they should have bought it.
I never said anything about "letting the kids explore", and the reason why I said the manager should be fired is because of his wholesale lack of judgment in physically chasing the kids down the street and involving the police for such nonsense. The damaging PR itself is enough to have this looney thrown out.
Also, again, the kids did not "vandalize" anyone's property ---- the iPhone continued to have exactly the same functionality that existed prior to modification and did not need to be "repaired". They downloaded a game for god sakes. Funnier still is the fact that the website they visited that allowed them to install the 3rd party game actually *FIXES* the existing security hole.
It's not what they did it to, it's the fact that THEY FU%$CK around with some that DIDN'T belong to them. Hey leave your MBP, iPhone, iPod around, that them pick it up and FU$%#*CK around with it, and then tell me you are ok with it ? NOT!
Are you serious? They weren't messing with someone's personal iPhone they grabbed from a purse! they were playing with the DEMO UNITS PROVIDED BY THE STORE FOR CUSTOMERS TO INTERACT WITH! That is entirely different than affecting someone's personal property. And for your crap analogy about a car dealership, what they did would be like changing the radio stations on a car.
There is a great deal of difference between the acts. Allowing a potential customer to add Safari bookmarks is a demonstration of the devices functions and capabilities... For all of you who think that this is ok, do you think it is acceptable to go around adding files and apps to display computers?
How is downloading a game not "a demonstration of a device's capabilities"? And I'm glad you brought up the case of kids messing with display computers. That happens thousands of times every day, and you sure as hell don't see kids being accosted down the street and arrested by local police.
I think you can cross "Store Manager" off your list off potential employment options.
That's ironic since I run a network of online stores.
I think you are mentally challenged. Someone else has already drawn attention to the illegal activities of Apples founders when they were kids. So how did those kids turn out again? How could you write such drivel after reading such a brilliant example - or didn't you read it and comprehend the irony? Just to help you understand the previous sentence, here's a hint, irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals. Your extrapolations are extreme, rendering your argument nonsensical.
"irony has nothing to do with ferrous metals." -- HAHAH! that is a good one.
It's criminal behavior...
Next time they get bored, they rape a 13 year old girl just to explore their potential and have some fun! Or come after you with a baseball bat to explore the thickness of your skull, take your MacBook from your cold hands, remove your account and put a new password on it... just for fun!
It isn't fun, it is vandalism.
It isn't exploring, it is boredom
dump kids... bah
hmmm.. I don't think your nonsense even deserves a reply... bah.
What's wrong with kids today. Sheesh! When I was growing up, we would've just ran!
Thanks to Playstation et al kids today are too fat to run!
Absolutely. The sickness of grandeur. Among few examples:
- Opening iTunes to .mp3 but not .avi - don't you see a paradox there as both are formats for 'stolen' playbacks?
You clearly misunderstand why they don't support AVI. Not only is AVI an obsolete format, it's also a competitor's format. DivX is a frankenformat too, no reason to support such an odd contraption except for the pirates, who don't seem to know better than use bizarre file formats.
Apple doesn't support WMA / WMV because it's a competitor's format. AAC is actually an open format. MP3 is a defacto open format.
- Quicktime - who the hell uses it anyway?
I do use it. Keep in mind that Quicktime isn't just an app, it's a framework. The Quicktime you see is just a front-end. If you use iTunes to play music or videos, you're using Quicktime too. If you use EyeTV, you are using Quicktime. If you use iMovie, you're using Quicktime.
- Disgrace with not fully enabling all Bluetooth capabilities on iPhone - that could give so much more to a user (apart from the downside of being attacked by proximity advertising messages).
I do wish Apple supported more Bluetooth stuff.
- Tying all their machines to Safari - which sucks more and more to compare with its counterparts (have switched to Firefox since 2 years now, and never going back).
Switching browsers takes maybe three mouse clicks.
- Their increasing distrust of all innovation by Adobe and Google (apart from allowing youtube on iPhone, ironically - since youtube is also by an large only a bazaar of 'illegal' uploads).
I don't know what Google innovation you are talking about that Apple is distrusting.
With Adobe, there are both legitimate technical reasons not to support flash yet, though the real deal-killer within Apple might be about ego or licensing terms. I wouldn't run flash on a 600MHz computer, why would I want to run it on a 600MHz iPhone?
People like you overly downplay how much user-generated media is on YouTube.
If they took a screwdriver to an iPhone and started cutting wires this might not be so absurd. They did NOT vandalize any merchandise.
If something breaks then you just replace it with a spare from the back room and re-image it. 15 minutes later everything is back to normal.
If it takes any work to fix it, then you'd be right, but it does take time to fix. That time costs money. It might cost the store $15 or so to fix. Don't just cite the cost in wages either, there's a lot more to how much an hour of an employees time costs than just wages. It's not necessarily a lot, but it's best not to let a lot of kids do it repeatedly.
I don't blame the kids too much for not thinking it through, but hacking someone ELSE's phone is what the problem is here. As to whether the entire Apple organization REALLY puts huge effort into tracking these kids around the world, or whether it's just what some manager SAID would happen when he snapped at them, is another matter. (And having seen how some kids behave in stores, I can well imagine a manager eventually snapping and saying things that went too far.)
It's just chest-thumping. The guy wants to sound like he's being serious when he's being a bit fruity.
It sounds like the threat that used to be made decades ago "this will be put in your permanent record!".
There is no meeting of the minds as far as referring to any type of contract law here. Taking pictures of the two kids is not "further" commercial activity, but to protect their physical property from further damage by these individuals. The damage is seriously minor. Vertical and horizontal penalties don't apply here since this is a private business. They can only be complainants, not prosecutors of this activity (other than being plaintiffs in a civil action to recover damages). There is no condition that would permit Apple's counsel to appointed as special prosecutor because the state/city/municipality is unable to proceed. I fail to see the "prosecution" here. Are you a first year?
You very correctly summarised my point (see the last sentence), as to the rest - you just got distracted ... I repeat - the only thing that Apple could (and should) have done in the circumstances was to become private complainants in criminal proceedings; but they chose not to. And the kids probably signed a paper consenting to the release of photos in return for Apple's promise of no criminal complaint. That's all there is to this story.
You are wrong though if you think that a unilateral release of the photos with the heading such as this one - even in the imputed circumstances - can be justified as such. And please let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy law in different Western jurisdictions. Moreover - in some countries this would raise an additional issue of a breach of "image rights" ... It is enough to say that the qualification of the release of photos would be different depending on a country - but the fact remains that the issue would be the one for the court, and the one which would warrant a careful consideration of competing interests, not an outright dismissal in favour of preventing "damage by these individuals" (as your post purports to imply).
If they took a screwdriver to an iPhone and started cutting wires this might not be so absurd. They did NOT vandalize any merchandise. They did show how much cooler the iPhone will be in a few weeks when Apple corrects their initial blunder of assuming all worthwhile ideas will come from Apple. They made the same sort of blunder with the Lisa and weren't able to recover from it in time with third party apps. If you are an Apple shareholder you can only hope that the iPhone won't be rendered passé by third party apps on Android.
The other possibility which might be an issue is whether the parents of these teen-agers from Palo Alto are both rich and pissed off. The manager ran down the street and dragged the kids back into the store over this incident? Have you heard of false imprisonment? They didn't shoplift or vandalize anything. If they were my kids I can guarantee I would be talking to a lawyer about bringing action. They were tinkering with a display model which was on display for people to tinker with and see how it operates. I know the store employees aren't exactly Apple engineers but this level of stupidity reflects poorly on Apple.
Some good points there. Unlike by some of those hard-line Apple cheerleaders who are too blindfolded to allow a possibility that this treatment may (and I stress the word may) have been just a tad too excessive? We don't know all the facts, so why rush with conclusions?
I don't know what Google innovation you are talking about that Apple is distrusting.
Google Maps, for starters, would be a killer ap to go with GPS o iPhone2.
And as far as Flash goes - I do think it's about "ego" more than anything else.
The bottom line of the initial message that accused Apple of resembling Microsoft was, to my mind, that Apple always used to be about innovation and being a few steps ahead of the game - for the benefit of the demanding consumer. But now it is increasingly about protecting the existing technology at the expense of development. Worse still, it is increasingly about big-company ambitions and about serving the "average, common" user - hence the Microsoft reference.
Google Maps, for starters, would be a killer ap to go with GPS o iPhone2.
But Apple basically uses Google Maps already. Are you suggesting that Google would pull support fo that back? I don't know what that would gain.
And as far as Flash goes - I do think it's about "ego" more than anything else.
Have you tried using Flash on a 600MHz computer lately?
Have you tried using Flash on a 600MHz computer lately?
It's a minimum requirement, I know, but it does not mean in itself it cannot be accommodated.
How is downloading a game not "a demonstration of a device's capabilities"? And I'm glad you brought up the case of kids messing with display computers. That happens thousands of times every day, and you sure as hell don't see kids being accosted down the street and arrested by local police.
That it's happens thousands of times still doesn't make it right. It is wrong, thousands of times wrong. They are modifying the advertisements of what the vendor is selling. Potentially customers could see your downloaded game and buy the product expecting to find the game and then be disappointed to find the game was not there when they got home. Now your vendor has to deal with an unhappy customer. Not right at all, these kids and the thousands of others you site are vandals pure and simple. The cost of the repair is irrelevant and minor to the potential cost of goodwill to the vendor.
But Apple basically uses Google Maps already. Are you suggesting that Google would pull support fo that back? I don't know what that would gain.
Have you tried using Flash on a 600MHz computer lately?
Just to remind people ---- as I'm a windows user for time being ---- the Flash plug-in for some reason seems much more resource hungry and computationally demanding on Mac OSX than it is on Windows. I believe this was even more pronounced on the POWER architecture, but apparently still exists on Intel Macs. Assuming it's a problem with the plumbing from Flash to Cocoa/Quartz, this would then carry over to the iPhone, would it not? Also, the ARM architecture may be a another source of inefficiency. I'd bet that Apple has already got flash running on the iPhone, and the performance sucks big time. Anyone know the details on this? Anyone know about someone getting the OSX flash plugin to work on the iPhone?
That it's happens thousands of times still doesn't make it right. It is wrong, thousands of times wrong. They are modifying the advertisements of what the vendor is selling. Potentially customers could see your downloaded game and buy the product expecting to find the game and then be disappointed to find the game was not there when they got home. Now your vendor has to deal with an unhappy customer. Not right at all, these kids and the thousands of others you site are vandals pure and simple. The cost of the repair is irrelevant and minor to the potential cost of goodwill to the vendor.
You are correct in that what they did was probably technically wrong, but i sure don't consider these kids vandals. My primary point was that this situation should have been dealt with by a simple, but firm "please do not modify the display models". It should have taken 2 minutes and then been over instead of this ludicrous situation of a store manager chasing kids down the street and calling the police. In fact, it's a waste of time event talking about this anymore.
Just to remind people ---- as I'm a windows user for time being ---- the Flash plug-in for some reason seems much more resource hungry and computationally demanding on Mac OSX than it is on Windows.
In this case, I don't think it matters. Even on a Windows computer, something running at 600MHz, I don't think flash was good enough, I avoided it whenever possible. Even on faster computers I tend to block it. And a phone is quite a bit more limited in resources than my computer was.
You very correctly summarised my point (see the last sentence), as to the rest - you just got distracted ... I repeat - the only thing that Apple could (and should) have done in the circumstances was to become private complainants in criminal proceedings; but they chose not to. And the kids probably signed a paper consenting to the release of photos in return for Apple's promise of no criminal complaint. That's all there is to this story.
You are wrong though if you think that a unilateral release of the photos with the heading such as this one - even in the imputed circumstances - can be justified as such. And please let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy law in different Western jurisdictions. Moreover - in some countries this would raise an additional issue of a breach of "image rights" ... It is enough to say that the qualification of the release of photos would be different depending on a country - but the fact remains that the issue would be the one for the court, and the one which would warrant a careful consideration of competing interests, not an outright dismissal in favour of preventing "damage by these individuals" (as your post purports to imply).
It doesn't work that way in California. You cannot simply elect to become a private complainant in a criminal proceeding. You make a criminal complaint or the police make it on your behalf after you sign off on their complaint/report. The local municipality then goes on it from there.
You make a rather large assumption regarding the quid pro quo between the young men and Apple with regards to release and the promise not to follow through with a criminal complaint. I guess as the hasty manager ran down the street with his digital camera, he happened to consult Apple's Legal Department, print the release and haul ass down the street.
You evade the real answer, as you do not have it, by stating "let's not go into comparative analysis of defamation/privacy laws in different Western jurisdictions" and then go on to compare. You are correct, initially...let's not compare. It is the state of California and the laws govering the United States that apply. There is no need of discussion of "different Western jurisdictions". We are talking about these two men in the state of California. No one posed the question "what if this occurred in Paris or London?"
Statements like "careful consideration of competing interests" is what is terrible about the legal profession in general. Every case is a landmark case. Ugh...give that crap up. I am an attorney and I can't stand when attorneys stand on ceremony when the situation does not deserve it. It would be the greatest injustice to have this situation debated in the highest court in the land when there are far more important matters like abortion, same-sex marriage, parental rights and numerous Constitutional violations/extensions, to name a few, that need to be considered.
A perfect example of this is all of the time and energy wasted by the RIAA. I have defended a number of cases against them in my criminal practice and have read their contribution to pre-sentencing investigations. Essentially, they purport to represent the interest of the victim record companies and artists and provide the court with their ridiculous assessment of the damages from the records sold (ie: fake cd case, they stated that each cd had a retail value of $27.99). The record labels and the artists do not sell the cd's at retail so that number is inflated to begin with. But in the report they provide to the court, they state that the money gained from the restitution does not go back to the record labels or the artists, but is paid directly to the RIAA to continue to bring lawsuits and be involved in seeking restitution in criminal cases. It is a self-perpetuating machine that serves only their own ends. Currently, there is litigation pending to remove their direct involvement as they are not a direct party to the damages incurred and should not receive any monetary reward (as far as the criminal cases are concerned).
"We're halfway down the block when the manager comes running out and tells us to 'stop right there,'"
They STOPPED? Now, THAT is dumb!
Didn't those kids learn that you RUN LIKE HELL when someone tells you to stop?
On second thought, they looked a little doughy for that kind of activity.
If nothing else, That little stunt will look great on their resumes.
Oh yea, one time, at the rype ole' age of 16, I maxed out the volume on every demo receiver and amp in a home theater room at a big electronics store, waited outside a few minutes and hilarity ensued.
Apple will be killed by its own self lust, The culture at Apple is unsustainable long term, odds are those kids are or were great apple customers, how many ipods do they own? iphones too maybe? Macs? iTunes downloads? I know of 6 people under 25 who have iphones, 5 of us have them cracked and jailbroke...Please steve, arrest me, I DOUBLE DARE YA
It's criminal behavior...
Next time they get bored, they rape a 13 year old girl just to explore their potential and have some fun!
Or come after you with a baseball bat to explore the thickness of your skull, take your MacBook from your cold hands, remove your account and put a new password on it... just for fun!
It isn't fun, it is vandalism.
It isn't exploring, it is boredom
dump kids... bah
I just wanted to point out how ridiculous this post is.
Thanks.
oh my.... why not throw them in prison, send them to a boot camp or let his holiness mr steve jobs I torture them personally... - in twenty years time they might become one of those famous examples: "thrown out by apple, employed by whoever - millionaires today"...
apple is going all nuts - as much as I love my iPod and Mac, I don't agree with Apples philosophy of doing business at all - they are becoming worse than Microsoft in more and more cases...
Wow calm down, you act as if Jobs personally banned these guys. The whole campany isn't responsible for one managers actions.