I bet you're wrong. It all has to do with their current customers. There is going to be confusion. I'm telling you.
Only for the folks that can't figure out how a "free phone every 2 years" deal works. Did you get a new free (or discounted phone) from us in the last 2 years? Yes? Sorry, wait until you qualify. Or hey...get a new line.
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Great...now we have people quoting AT&T. Apologist #2.
So if you quote a company's policy to show what it says instead of what you think it says you're an "apologist"? Nice.
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No, that's not accurate. Customers who don't qualify cannot do that, unless they CANCEL their service and then start over. Theoretically, of course.
It's not accurate in what way? In your degenerate case where someone has a current contract with AT&T but insufficient credit history to be approved for a second account? Yeah, okay...if your finances are THAT borderline you probably should reconsider getting an iPhone and paying your rent or mortgage instead.
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You know, that's not necessary.
Either is that. You don't need to be an asshole about it. If you disagree, fine.
Yes, I disagree and I think your assertion that just because he has a low post count means anything to anyone but a very few folks around here proves my statement.
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Staying with Verizon is not an option for those that want an iPhone. That's the point. And I'm comparing my current plan to AT&T's not a hypothetical Verizon plan. I have similar capability for $25 a month less. Last year I had 3G access for $5 a month via bluetooth e815 and MBP.
It's not hypothetical, it's WHAT'S LISTED ON THEIR WEBSITE. The "point" is that you're comparing an old Verizon plan using last year's pricing or whatever against a July 2008 AT&T plan and calling it overpriced.
It's not because it's cheaper than the CURRENT VERIZON PLAN.
I have a grandfathered AT&T->Cingular->AT&T plan that's cheaper than what's listed on the AT&T website. Should I say that all the other companies are rip-offs because I happen to have a grandfathered plan from like 2004?
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Right...you're demonstrating real quality in posting, asshole.
This isn't PO. I suggest you cool it on the 4 letter words or keep yourself there if you can't refrain from using them here.
I'm appalled at the arrogance of these phone companies - AT&T in particular. What better way to say "f**k you" to your existing, paying, loyal customers. You're not "eligible" for an upgrade? WTF is that? I'm signing, agreeing, committing to an additional 2 years of PAYING YOU and you want to nickle and dime me on the hardware?
I'm glad I'm eligible, but if I wasn't, Apple would be loosing another iPhone sale. AT&T is greed. Pure and simple.
I've been a Verizon customer since '95, and from reading majority of post I will state it's a matter of prospective. Here is my prospective, which is excluding my 20 percent corporate discount, 450 nationwide minutes, unlimited night, weekends, and data. No TEXTs. Verizon charges $50 dollars per month, $39.99 per month for the voice or 90 dollars per month. Did I state that Night at Verizon begins at 9:01 PM each night versus AT&T which is 7 or 8 PM? Active Sync is being licensed from Microsoft. The current AT&T corporate plan is 45 bucks. Still cheaper than Verizion. When I upgraded from the Treo 600 phone, Verizon charged me 500 bucks for the Treo 700P (subsidized) phone with an ancient 5 year OS AFTER my former 2 year contract expired (yes upgraded). Before I get blasted it was a tax write off. Verizon has the best network in my professional experience (IT guru), but they are slow in getting the decent phones. Ticked me off when they suggest the new Palm Centro junk to me to stay around this time. So from my perspective, I get a better phone and still save money money and get 3G. I don't travel often outside the DC area so not going to sweat much if 3G is not nationwide for AT&T.
Oh I failed to mention the the higher charges for the corporate customers is probably from the licensing fee from Microsoft. The 45 bucks I mentioned for the corporate rate for the the data plan only, which is 5 bucks cheaper than Verizon 50 bucks data plan.
Staying with Verizon is not an option for those that want an iPhone. That's the point. And I'm comparing my current plan to AT&T's not a hypothetical Verizon plan. I have similar capability for $25 a month less. Last year I had 3G access for $5 a month via bluetooth e815 and MBP.
If the iPhone were sold through Verizon you would be in the exact same situation. You would have to qualify for a new subsidized phone, sign for a new 2 year contract, pay for a more expensive plan that did not include text messages, or pay an even more expensive plan for unlimited text messages.
I'll call em out when they mess up, and why would anyone be an apologist to at&t... by the way, they are the one charging you, not Apple.
Both are charging. They are in business together.
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it cost you $175 cause you were still in contract... they aren't going to subsidize another phone for you to need replacing again. wouldn't make business sense. if every time I wanted a new phone I just rolled into AT&T and signed up another 2 years and got another free phone, they would be bankrupt. When you got your flashy moto e815, whatever price you paid was probably about $200 less then it woulda cost any guy to walk in the store, buy, and leave. you didn't use that phone for 2 years and needed a new one... AT&T has you sign a contract saying that you will use the phone for 2 years so they can recoup that $200 they took off the phone initially. The made you pay $175 for the razr cause you still hadn't paid them back the $200 the gave you off your original phone.
Use that same formula but replace e815 with razr, and replace razr with new iphone. you haven't given them the money back they put into the original phone for you, so why give you more money off another phone?
I don't disagree with that. But the problem with it is I had to sign up for a NEW contract. I believe I only got $25 off (maybe 50) even with that.
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$20 a month to bring you to the same cost as every other smartphone at&t has in their lineup. and similar service =/= GPS and 3G... but those aren't the reasons for the price hike, it's the subsidy of the phone.
$20-25 without any texting.
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199 with 2 year contract is the price.... it's only fiction if you are totally unaware of how cellphone contracts work. All prices listed for any cell phone in the AT&T store is for a 2 year contract with new activation, or expired contract. See the basic reasoning 2 questions above.
That's not how it's stated.
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the break because you paid full price for the phone. so it was a break because they could have continued to charge the original iphone users the same fees that they charge everyone else, and as you can see, people don't really seem to understand the concept behind subsidizing a phone.
I do understand it. Frankly I'd rather just pay full price for the phone, but whatever.
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relevant, as in, using the same technology the other phones on the network have been using for years. and it's not more than the going rate.... unless you think the going rate is what they are charging for the original iphone, which again, shows your amazing sleuthing skills...
The text plan is not the going rate. The data is.
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the going rate on ANY phone on AT&T is $39.99 for 450 minutes.... sound familiar? and $30 for unlimited smartphone data.... that also sounds like a familiar price... 69.99.. then adding texts.... holy crap, you guessed it, 5 buckeroos.
it's the same as every other phone that AT&T has, and considering it's better than every other phone AT&T has, I wouldn't complain that you have to pay the same amount.
I'm not saying it's out of line with AT&T plans. I'm saying its considerably more than I'm paying now...even with better a better SMS package included.
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so technically, if you wanted to make a call, and you were on the net downloading all your facts about cell plans, you would have to stop searching to make your call since it was using the same cell technology. I bet it was a lightening fast connection too if it was going over the voice signals... and yeah, I usually liked to wait until 9pm or till saturday rolls around to do my web browsing too, so I guess that's a killer deal.
It was a 3G connection, so it was pretty fast. And it was supposed to use my minutes...but I don't think it ever actually did.
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if you paid for your data in that method through Verizon you are very much a stranger to paying for quality.
This brings me to the only relevant part of your post, and you touched on it, but didn't quite say it out loud, probably because it's hard to make a coherent thought when you are throwing insults at me like "champ", but the American method of subsidizing phones for more expensive plans is flawed.
That we agree on. Clearly the carriers like it, though.
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I should have the choice to pay more for my phone, and have a cheaper plan. This does not exist. I can pay more and not be tied to a contract, but I still have to pay a monthly bill as if I received a discount for the phone. Again, this is across the board with all cell carriers in America, but it's a broken plan. I shouldn't be forced to take the $200 discount on the phone if I choose not to. This was what AT&T offered everyone who bought the original iphone, and again I still think people should have been given a choice. I think many more people would have bought the original iphone if it was $200 cheaper and the rates were the same as all other phones. This would have also stopped the brigade of angry, confused, and uninformed customers who don't know what's really going on because everyone would have just went along with the plans like they do for every other phone.
And while you didn't out right say this, it is the argument you are looking for, you are just so enraged with anger that you can't afford an iphone, that you can only attack the companies involved instead of the system.
I can afford one fine. I am just pointing out that it costs much more than advertised, particularly for people NOT in my situation, like current non-upgrade eligible customers.
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(Also while looking for reasons to bitch, try complaining about AT&T agreeing to allow the government to illegally listen in to our private phone conversations whenever they see fit without a warrant... that's a little bit bigger of a deal since you know it's against the constitution and all)
That depends. It's not if they are using it like they say they are...for foreign surveillance.
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And while you didn't bring it up, I've read some people saying AT&T shouldn't be charging people for 3G coverage that don't have 3G coverage in their area. This isn't true, you aren't paying more for the 3G, you are paying more because you are purchasing the phone for significantly less money than it's actually worth...
Then why did the basic plan go up? I guarantee you AT&T would tell it's because yes...it's subsidized, but 2) it's because of the 3G plan.
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however, this goes back to my original complaint, which should be the one people are using, and that is that AT&T should offer the choice. If I want to pay full price for a phone, I should be able to do so and have a plan similar to the original iphone plan. if I want to come to AT&T with my own phone, I should be able to just sign up for a cheaper plan. I shouldn't be forced to pitch into the subsidy pot for people that chose to have their phone subsidized. I think that carriers steer away from this because it's obvious people just really don't understand what's really going on.
That we agree on. The only thing I would add is since AT&T is charging another $10 a month, they out to at least include 200 SMS as they did before.
Look, we've gotten into it here, but my only issues are this:
1) The phone has the potential to cost far more than $199/299 for certain customers (my not included). It's not clear what a "new" contract means.
2) The removal of SMS despite charging $10 a month more.
Several posters have made the argument that the $10 a month is for 3G data access. You've claimed it's not. I think it's both...it's a subsidy and it's a 3G premium.
the reason you didn't get $200 of your razr as I tried to explain before is that your original moto phone was given the $200 subsidy.. since you didn't uphold your end of the contract of keeping the phone for 2 years, they couldn't give you the $200 off the new phone because you still owed them for your original $200 that they never recouped from you when you lost, or broke your first phone. Hope that makes more sense.
The $199 price is what's stated in a keynote marketing presentation. If the presentation said that the pricing was to be $600 again, and then months later they decided to charge $199, would you demand they take your $600 because that's what they quoted you? The pricing, terms and conditions are easy to follow on the AT&T and Apple web site. Because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal, or confusing.
it's not 3G it's 100% the subsidy. the data plans aren't going up across the board, the original iphone had a cheaper plan than all other phones when it was released. The prices for data and sms haven't changed at AT&T at all. the only thing that has changed is the amount the current iphone users will have to pay if they go up to a 3G iphone, and that is because of the subsidy. if it were because of 3G, the data plans would have went up years ago when I had an EDGE treo 650 and AT&T started rolling out 3G phones. When I upgraded to a blackjack, (3G) my price didn't go up.. I was still paying the same price for data.
The comparison of the old and new plans is irrelevant because we aren't taking into account how much people spent on the original phone ($600 for an 8gig) which is $400 more than you are paying now for a newer phone.
customers are complaining because they are paying $20 extra a month for the same plan, but not happy that they are saving $400 off the phone? with the subsidy you are actually only paying about $3.33 more a month over what you were paying if you take into account that extra $400 in savings off the phone, and divide it over the 2 years of the contract.
As for the "new customer" deal, you need to be a new customer if you expect AT&T to discount your phone at such a high amount, because again, if they gave anyone the phone at 200 bucks, they would be losing the remaining money left over from their current phone that AT&T also subsidized.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
And again this goes back to the problem at hand, that we aren't (at least at first) given the option to pay full price and keep the cheaper data plan, although I'm sure that will be offered in the future. If you buy the 3G iphone for full price and you are currently on the old iphone plan, AT&T won't be able to force you to change your data plan because they aren't subsidizing the cost of the phone, and can't force you to sign a contract. People with current EDGE iphones who want to keep their cheaper data plan will probably (don't quote me on this) but should be able to pay full price for the 3G iphone without a contract and just plop their sim into the new iphone and continue to pay their discount rate.
I'm sure they are holding this off at first to make sure they have enough stock for new customers since a new customer will obviously generate more income for them. but once that first wave goes away, they will open up the ability to get a new phone without signing a contract, and if you don't sign a contract, they aren't able to raise your rates... win-win.
however, this goes back to my original complaint, which should be the one people are using, and that is that AT&T should offer the choice. If I want to pay full price for a phone, I should be able to do so and have a plan similar to the original iphone plan. if I want to come to AT&T with my own phone, I should be able to just sign up for a cheaper plan. I shouldn't be forced to pitch into the subsidy pot for people that chose to have their phone subsidized. I think that carriers steer away from this because it's obvious people just really don't understand what's really going on.
There really is no reason AT&T has to sell the iPhone at full price and offer the service plan at a lower price. AT&T doesn't sell its other 3G services at a lower price. Nor does Verizon offer 3G at a lower price. AT&T like Verizon is able to raise its revenue per user by charging more for 3G services.
You are free to come to AT&T with your own GSM phone. But AT&T like Verizon and every other mobile carrier are going to charge a premium for unlimited 3G.
Which you don't get under any CURRENT Verizon plans either.
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I'm not saying it's out of line with AT&T plans. I'm saying its considerably more than I'm paying now...even with better a better SMS package included.
AGAIN, because you have an older Verizon plan that is cheaper than current Verizon plans. Comparing old Verizon plans to new AT&T plans will almost always result in being able to say that "hey, my old plan is cheaper". Vice versa works too...I can compare my old AT&T plan to Verizon and make the same useless observation.
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I can afford one fine. I am just pointing out that it costs much more than advertised, particularly for people NOT in my situation, like current non-upgrade eligible customers.
Odds are AT&T will take care of them. Just not on July 11. In any case, it's rather CLEAR how the subsidized phone market works.
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That we agree on. The only thing I would add is since AT&T is charging another $10 a month, they out to at least include 200 SMS as they did before.
Except their other CURRENT plans don't either. And neither does Verizon's.
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1) The phone has the potential to cost far more than $199/299 for certain customers (my not included). It's not clear what a "new" contract means.
And yet still cost $100 less than the previous iPhone. It certainly IS clear what NEW contract means. It means NEW contract. I have an account with AT&T. Because my contract is fullfilled I have NO CONTRACT. It says so when I pull up my account profile and I can leave any time I want and pay no fees.
When I get my iPhone I will then have a NEW CONTRACT. If I had an EXISTING CONTRACT I have THREE CHOICES:
1) Break my existing contract, pay the penalty and get a NEW CONTRACT.
2) Wait until my existing contract ends and get a NEW CONTRACT.
3) Buy a NEW CONTRACT and have two active contracts on my account.
actually four choices:
4) Try to find a nice CSR that will let me get a NEW CONTRACT and drop my OLD CONTRACT without a fee. This ain't likely anytime in July with the iPhone but might be possible later.
It is only "unclear" because you choose to make it so.
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2) The removal of SMS despite charging $10 a month more.
Because companies change plans as time passes. In any case, AT&T has competitive plans vs Verizon (when you compare apples to apples) and the iPhone plan is $10 LESS than the equivalent Verizon plan and better.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
There were actually a good number of folks that got a free backup phone since you had to get a new 2 year contract anyway. I guessing they'll get to slide since they are a "current iPhone user" but maybe not.
the reason you didn't get $200 of your razr as I tried to explain before is that your original moto phone was given the $200 subsidy.. since you didn't uphold your end of the contract of keeping the phone for 2 years, they couldn't give you the $200 off the new phone because you still owed them for your original $200 that they never recouped from you when you lost, or broke your first phone. Hope that makes more sense.
I never claimed I didn't understand. Why do you insist that you know more about this? I fully understand why. What I take issue with is not the price of the phone, but the fact that I had to sign up for a a new contract AND pay a large amount for the phone.
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The $199 price is what's stated in a keynote marketing presentation. If the presentation said that the pricing was to be $600 again, and then months later they decided to charge $199, would you demand they take your $600 because that's what they quoted you? The pricing, terms and conditions are easy to follow on the AT&T and Apple web site. Because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal, or confusing.
You're amazing. All I am saying is that Apple's advertising (not the keynote pres) is deceptive. They state the iPhone is $199/$299 with a new 2 year contract. The problem with that is the word "new." A current customer can get a "new" 2 year contract and still pay full price. Perhaps people should understand the subsidy, but many don't. You have Apple screaming that a product they sell costs X/Y. In fact, that price only applies to new AT&T customers and those eligible for a new phone at upgrade pricing. It might not be illegal, but it's not clear either.
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it's not 3G it's 100% the subsidy. the data plans aren't going up across the board, the original iphone had a cheaper plan than all other phones when it was released. The prices for data and sms haven't changed at AT&T at all. the only thing that has changed is the amount the current iphone users will have to pay if they go up to a 3G iphone, and that is because of the subsidy. if it were because of 3G, the data plans would have went up years ago when I had an EDGE treo 650 and AT&T started rolling out 3G phones. When I upgraded to a blackjack, (3G) my price didn't go up.. I was still paying the same price for data.
Fair enough.
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The comparison of the old and new plans is irrelevant because we aren't taking into account how much people spent on the original phone ($600 for an 8gig) which is $400 more than you are paying now for a newer phone.
It's not irrelevant if you're simply using it to compare cost over a few years time. The new phone is actually more expensive than the old was with its higher price.
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customers are complaining because they are paying $20 extra a month for the same plan, but not happy that they are saving $400 off the phone? with the subsidy you are actually only paying about $3.33 more a month over what you were paying if you take into account that extra $400 in savings off the phone, and divide it over the 2 years of the contract.
$20 more per month is $240 per year. In two years, they've paid more for the phone than they would have for the old one.
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As for the "new customer" deal, you need to be a new customer if you expect AT&T to discount your phone at such a high amount, because again, if they gave anyone the phone at 200 bucks, they would be losing the remaining money left over from their current phone that AT&T also subsidized.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
Again...I understand. But Apple is selling the product too...and it's not clear, at least to some. I'm telling you...just watch the reaction over time.
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And again this goes back to the problem at hand, that we aren't (at least at first) given the option to pay full price and keep the cheaper data plan, although I'm sure that will be offered in the future. If you buy the 3G iphone for full price and you are currently on the old iphone plan, AT&T won't be able to force you to change your data plan because they aren't subsidizing the cost of the phone, and can't force you to sign a contract. People with current EDGE iphones who want to keep their cheaper data plan will probably (don't quote me on this) but should be able to pay full price for the 3G iphone without a contract and just plop their sim into the new iphone and continue to pay their discount rate.
I'm sure they are holding this off at first to make sure they have enough stock for new customers since a new customer will obviously generate more income for them. but once that first wave goes away, they will open up the ability to get a new phone without signing a contract, and if you don't sign a contract, they aren't able to raise your rates... win-win.
This goes to my point about clarity. Imagine J6P reading what you just wrote. Clear as a bell!
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
i guess to fight evdo which i think is no more than 700kbs, that's like satellite broadband, and so it doesn't tax their system. i waited for 3g because i thought att would have some bogus upgrade cost mess, and i knew apple would have new features or form factor. i thought that they wouldn't allow me to upgrade without a huge fee and have to wait for the end of contract. that's why i waited, so basically we don't have 3g here. but i do like the gps feature . if i get my wife one i'll get a refurbished V1 for her. my big thing is when will att and apple have refurbished ones, i'm not paying the ebay prices i've seen lately for a "back up phone)
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
Time is money.
3G is that much faster than 2G... I speak from experience.
3G is that much faster than 2G... I speak from experience.
Experience with a 3G iPhone? Course not.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
True, not a 3G iPhone. Experience with an old 2G phone, a PHS, and currently have a 3G phone. The difference is amazing.
Time is money for a lot of people... At my office, I have a very slow internet connection. The one I have at home is 15 to 20 times faster. So, when at work, I either don't surf to certain pages or, when I have to, I make sure I have something else to do while they load. Any downloading at work takes hours, and thus must be done during meetings or lunch or after work so as not to interfere with my work. At home, I have the luxury of broadband, so I can set a large download, for example a system update, and it is finished before I an get back from making a cup of coffee, or while I check my mail. Thus, there are certain considerations I have to make while at work, especially considering workflows.
Same for my current cel phone. At home, I have a solid three signal strength and can jump through pages on EZWeb pretty quickly. At work (my office building is nestled between three mountains), I usually have one stripe, two at low tide (the signal bounces off the water to an antenna on the other side of a bay), and the difference is agonizing; timed it once and it was about 3X at 2 stripes, 5X at 1. So, again, there are certain things I will not do on my cel phone (sending video, for example) while at work, but are not a problem elsewhere. And yes, at work, a couple of minutes saved makes the world of difference.
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
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Originally Posted by 4metta
Experience with a 3G iPhone? Course not.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
You post doesn't make much sense. You have no source to back up your statements and you don't even use a "from my experience" to indicate that your personal experience has been less than stellar with 3G. 3G is just a marketing term that means 3rd generation but in regards to cell networks can mean CDMA2000 or UTMS. Within that you EV-DO and HSDPA, HSUPA, and HSPA+. Within those you different speeds up and down. There is no single definition to define 3G so you non qualified, unsubstantiated claim means nothing. I implore you to clarify.
Older and cheaper 3G handsets may have slower 3G chips that only have a theoretical max speed of 3.6Mbps, while the iPhone has a chip capable of 7.2Mbps, but even the 3.6Mbps would be unobtainable with the Phone's 412Mhz CPU and 128MB RAM. I can't even get more than 2.3Mbps on an 802.11G WiFi connection. So what phone are you talking about?
The other issue is the carrier and that area you are in. Having a 3G-capable cell phone is pointless if there is no network to support it. There will certaily be people complaining that the iPhone sucks and is slow because they using it on an EDGE network. In my current area EDGE is ~180Kbps while HSDPA is ~1.5Mbps. That is an average slightly higher than AT&T's claim of 1.4Mbps. You do the math, the speed is more than 2x, but in your defense, that 8.3x network speed increase (on my Mac with an AT&T Sierra AirCard) doesn't amount to anywhere near 8.3x page rendering increase. But that is way of things, no one technically savvy expects a 1:1 increase in speed from start to finish. What carrier did you use and where?
As for your "97% don't want 3G", you are wrong. That is the number one feature people have been complaining about for 18 months. And as for your "it's just seconds faster" comment, this is so odd I'm not sure how to answer it, but I'll try. Everything relating to time can be measured in seconds so you'll have to be more specific. You have explained nothing with that statement. You appear to make it in a pejorative sense, but a few seconds per webpage adds up to a great deal of time very quickly. Furthermore, AT&T and Apple aren't promising any minimum speed increase for 3G iPhone users as you say. There are posters here that are still in EDGE-only areas and there places where the 3G tower will be bogged down at certain time of the day or the user will be too far away to get an optimal speed connection. They can state an average increase, but they can't guarantee anything.
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Originally Posted by NOFEER
if i get my wife one i'll get a refurbished V1 for her. my big thing is when will att and apple have refurbished ones, i'm not paying the ebay prices i've seen lately for a "back up phone.
The high eBay prices are only because there is no supply. Once the 3G iPHone hits the price will come down considerably. But I'd check Craig's List first. Since listing is free and there will surely be local iPhones for sale you can save a lot of overhead costs, just make sure you meet in a public place.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
Actually the demo's showed 3G being around 3 times faster than EDGE. But that is not the entire difference.
WiFi is significantly faster than EDGE. Using a speed measuring webapp. I recorded my iPhone on WiFi downloading at nearly 5Mbps and EDGE at 90Kbps. 3G is closer to WiFi than it is to EDGE.
3G not only offers more speed but less latency. Downloading media (video, audio) is next to impossible on EDGE because of latency as much as speed.
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
We know there will be unlocked iPhones sold in Europe. So they will be available but likely at an incredibly high price.
It remains to be seen how someone will walk into AT&T or Apple and walk out without a subscription, since that is an explicit requirement of purchasing the phone.
True, not a 3G iPhone. Experience with an old 2G phone, a PHS, and currently have a 3G phone. The difference is amazing.
Time is money for a lot of people... At my office, I have a very slow internet connection. The one I have at home is 15 to 20 times faster. So, when at work, I either don't surf to certain pages or, when I have to, I make sure I have something else to do while they load. Any downloading at work takes hours, and thus must be done during meetings or lunch or after work so as not to interfere with my work. At home, I have the luxury of broadband, so I can set a large download, for example a system update, and it is finished before I an get back from making a cup of coffee, or while I check my mail. Thus, there are certain considerations I have to make while at work, especially considering workflows.
Same for my current cel phone. At home, I have a solid three signal strength and can jump through pages on EZWeb pretty quickly. At work (my office building is nestled between three mountains), I usually have one stripe, two at low tide (the signal bounces off the water to an antenna on the other side of a bay), and the difference is agonizing; timed it once and it was about 3X at 2 stripes, 5X at 1. So, again, there are certain things I will not do on my cel phone (sending video, for example) while at work, but are not a problem elsewhere. And yes, at work, a couple of minutes saved makes the world of difference.
Welcome to the wonderful world of a strong WiFi signal. It's faster and will serve you better in the end. AND all iPhones can use it. I'm sorry your net connection at work is slow. Hopefully you will gain more hotspot access. For many of us there are fast hotspots everywhere. I have a fast one at work, campus and home as well as the malls, etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
As for your "97% don't want 3G", you are wrong.
Didn't say "don't want" I said "don't/won't need".
Quote:
Originally Posted by TenoBell
Actually the demo's showed 3G being around 3 times faster than EDGE. But that is not the entire difference.
Sure it is because they won't be guaranteeing even that. Wait and see the speeds that occur. They won't be fast enough to make dealing with AT&T's ripoff rates feel any better. I can assure you this pricing issue will not die down. Unlocking is the way to go.
Comments
I bet you're wrong. It all has to do with their current customers. There is going to be confusion. I'm telling you.
Only for the folks that can't figure out how a "free phone every 2 years" deal works. Did you get a new free (or discounted phone) from us in the last 2 years? Yes? Sorry, wait until you qualify. Or hey...get a new line.
Great...now we have people quoting AT&T. Apologist #2.
So if you quote a company's policy to show what it says instead of what you think it says you're an "apologist"? Nice.
No, that's not accurate. Customers who don't qualify cannot do that, unless they CANCEL their service and then start over. Theoretically, of course.
It's not accurate in what way? In your degenerate case where someone has a current contract with AT&T but insufficient credit history to be approved for a second account? Yeah, okay...if your finances are THAT borderline you probably should reconsider getting an iPhone and paying your rent or mortgage instead.
You know, that's not necessary.
Either is that. You don't need to be an asshole about it. If you disagree, fine.
Yes, I disagree and I think your assertion that just because he has a low post count means anything to anyone but a very few folks around here proves my statement.
Staying with Verizon is not an option for those that want an iPhone. That's the point. And I'm comparing my current plan to AT&T's not a hypothetical Verizon plan. I have similar capability for $25 a month less. Last year I had 3G access for $5 a month via bluetooth e815 and MBP.
It's not hypothetical, it's WHAT'S LISTED ON THEIR WEBSITE. The "point" is that you're comparing an old Verizon plan using last year's pricing or whatever against a July 2008 AT&T plan and calling it overpriced.
It's not because it's cheaper than the CURRENT VERIZON PLAN.
I have a grandfathered AT&T->Cingular->AT&T plan that's cheaper than what's listed on the AT&T website. Should I say that all the other companies are rip-offs because I happen to have a grandfathered plan from like 2004?
Right...you're demonstrating real quality in posting, asshole.
This isn't PO. I suggest you cool it on the 4 letter words or keep yourself there if you can't refrain from using them here.
I'm appalled at the arrogance of these phone companies - AT&T in particular. What better way to say "f**k you" to your existing, paying, loyal customers. You're not "eligible" for an upgrade? WTF is that? I'm signing, agreeing, committing to an additional 2 years of PAYING YOU and you want to nickle and dime me on the hardware?
I'm glad I'm eligible, but if I wasn't, Apple would be loosing another iPhone sale. AT&T is greed. Pure and simple.
http://www.verizonwireless.com/b2c/s...d=49&catId=448
I've been a Verizon customer since '95, and from reading majority of post I will state it's a matter of prospective. Here is my prospective, which is excluding my 20 percent corporate discount, 450 nationwide minutes, unlimited night, weekends, and data. No TEXTs. Verizon charges $50 dollars per month, $39.99 per month for the voice or 90 dollars per month. Did I state that Night at Verizon begins at 9:01 PM each night versus AT&T which is 7 or 8 PM? Active Sync is being licensed from Microsoft. The current AT&T corporate plan is 45 bucks. Still cheaper than Verizion. When I upgraded from the Treo 600 phone, Verizon charged me 500 bucks for the Treo 700P (subsidized) phone with an ancient 5 year OS AFTER my former 2 year contract expired (yes upgraded). Before I get blasted it was a tax write off. Verizon has the best network in my professional experience (IT guru), but they are slow in getting the decent phones. Ticked me off when they suggest the new Palm Centro junk to me to stay around this time. So from my perspective, I get a better phone and still save money money and get 3G. I don't travel often outside the DC area so not going to sweat much if 3G is not nationwide for AT&T.
Staying with Verizon is not an option for those that want an iPhone. That's the point. And I'm comparing my current plan to AT&T's not a hypothetical Verizon plan. I have similar capability for $25 a month less. Last year I had 3G access for $5 a month via bluetooth e815 and MBP.
If the iPhone were sold through Verizon you would be in the exact same situation. You would have to qualify for a new subsidized phone, sign for a new 2 year contract, pay for a more expensive plan that did not include text messages, or pay an even more expensive plan for unlimited text messages.
I'll call em out when they mess up, and why would anyone be an apologist to at&t... by the way, they are the one charging you, not Apple.
Both are charging. They are in business together.
it cost you $175 cause you were still in contract... they aren't going to subsidize another phone for you to need replacing again. wouldn't make business sense. if every time I wanted a new phone I just rolled into AT&T and signed up another 2 years and got another free phone, they would be bankrupt. When you got your flashy moto e815, whatever price you paid was probably about $200 less then it woulda cost any guy to walk in the store, buy, and leave. you didn't use that phone for 2 years and needed a new one... AT&T has you sign a contract saying that you will use the phone for 2 years so they can recoup that $200 they took off the phone initially. The made you pay $175 for the razr cause you still hadn't paid them back the $200 the gave you off your original phone.
Use that same formula but replace e815 with razr, and replace razr with new iphone. you haven't given them the money back they put into the original phone for you, so why give you more money off another phone?
I don't disagree with that. But the problem with it is I had to sign up for a NEW contract. I believe I only got $25 off (maybe 50) even with that.
$20 a month to bring you to the same cost as every other smartphone at&t has in their lineup. and similar service =/= GPS and 3G... but those aren't the reasons for the price hike, it's the subsidy of the phone.
$20-25 without any texting.
199 with 2 year contract is the price.... it's only fiction if you are totally unaware of how cellphone contracts work. All prices listed for any cell phone in the AT&T store is for a 2 year contract with new activation, or expired contract. See the basic reasoning 2 questions above.
That's not how it's stated.
the break because you paid full price for the phone. so it was a break because they could have continued to charge the original iphone users the same fees that they charge everyone else, and as you can see, people don't really seem to understand the concept behind subsidizing a phone.
I do understand it. Frankly I'd rather just pay full price for the phone, but whatever.
relevant, as in, using the same technology the other phones on the network have been using for years. and it's not more than the going rate.... unless you think the going rate is what they are charging for the original iphone, which again, shows your amazing sleuthing skills...
The text plan is not the going rate. The data is.
the going rate on ANY phone on AT&T is $39.99 for 450 minutes.... sound familiar? and $30 for unlimited smartphone data.... that also sounds like a familiar price... 69.99.. then adding texts.... holy crap, you guessed it, 5 buckeroos.
it's the same as every other phone that AT&T has, and considering it's better than every other phone AT&T has, I wouldn't complain that you have to pay the same amount.
I'm not saying it's out of line with AT&T plans. I'm saying its considerably more than I'm paying now...even with better a better SMS package included.
so technically, if you wanted to make a call, and you were on the net downloading all your facts about cell plans, you would have to stop searching to make your call since it was using the same cell technology. I bet it was a lightening fast connection too if it was going over the voice signals... and yeah, I usually liked to wait until 9pm or till saturday rolls around to do my web browsing too, so I guess that's a killer deal.
It was a 3G connection, so it was pretty fast. And it was supposed to use my minutes...but I don't think it ever actually did.
if you paid for your data in that method through Verizon you are very much a stranger to paying for quality.
This brings me to the only relevant part of your post, and you touched on it, but didn't quite say it out loud, probably because it's hard to make a coherent thought when you are throwing insults at me like "champ", but the American method of subsidizing phones for more expensive plans is flawed.
That we agree on. Clearly the carriers like it, though.
I should have the choice to pay more for my phone, and have a cheaper plan. This does not exist. I can pay more and not be tied to a contract, but I still have to pay a monthly bill as if I received a discount for the phone. Again, this is across the board with all cell carriers in America, but it's a broken plan. I shouldn't be forced to take the $200 discount on the phone if I choose not to. This was what AT&T offered everyone who bought the original iphone, and again I still think people should have been given a choice. I think many more people would have bought the original iphone if it was $200 cheaper and the rates were the same as all other phones. This would have also stopped the brigade of angry, confused, and uninformed customers who don't know what's really going on because everyone would have just went along with the plans like they do for every other phone.
And while you didn't out right say this, it is the argument you are looking for, you are just so enraged with anger that you can't afford an iphone, that you can only attack the companies involved instead of the system.
I can afford one fine. I am just pointing out that it costs much more than advertised, particularly for people NOT in my situation, like current non-upgrade eligible customers.
(Also while looking for reasons to bitch, try complaining about AT&T agreeing to allow the government to illegally listen in to our private phone conversations whenever they see fit without a warrant... that's a little bit bigger of a deal since you know it's against the constitution and all)
That depends. It's not if they are using it like they say they are...for foreign surveillance.
And while you didn't bring it up, I've read some people saying AT&T shouldn't be charging people for 3G coverage that don't have 3G coverage in their area. This isn't true, you aren't paying more for the 3G, you are paying more because you are purchasing the phone for significantly less money than it's actually worth...
Then why did the basic plan go up? I guarantee you AT&T would tell it's because yes...it's subsidized, but 2) it's because of the 3G plan.
however, this goes back to my original complaint, which should be the one people are using, and that is that AT&T should offer the choice. If I want to pay full price for a phone, I should be able to do so and have a plan similar to the original iphone plan. if I want to come to AT&T with my own phone, I should be able to just sign up for a cheaper plan. I shouldn't be forced to pitch into the subsidy pot for people that chose to have their phone subsidized. I think that carriers steer away from this because it's obvious people just really don't understand what's really going on.
That we agree on. The only thing I would add is since AT&T is charging another $10 a month, they out to at least include 200 SMS as they did before.
Look, we've gotten into it here, but my only issues are this:
1) The phone has the potential to cost far more than $199/299 for certain customers (my not included). It's not clear what a "new" contract means.
2) The removal of SMS despite charging $10 a month more.
Several posters have made the argument that the $10 a month is for 3G data access. You've claimed it's not. I think it's both...it's a subsidy and it's a 3G premium.
The $199 price is what's stated in a keynote marketing presentation. If the presentation said that the pricing was to be $600 again, and then months later they decided to charge $199, would you demand they take your $600 because that's what they quoted you? The pricing, terms and conditions are easy to follow on the AT&T and Apple web site. Because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal, or confusing.
it's not 3G it's 100% the subsidy. the data plans aren't going up across the board, the original iphone had a cheaper plan than all other phones when it was released. The prices for data and sms haven't changed at AT&T at all. the only thing that has changed is the amount the current iphone users will have to pay if they go up to a 3G iphone, and that is because of the subsidy. if it were because of 3G, the data plans would have went up years ago when I had an EDGE treo 650 and AT&T started rolling out 3G phones. When I upgraded to a blackjack, (3G) my price didn't go up.. I was still paying the same price for data.
The comparison of the old and new plans is irrelevant because we aren't taking into account how much people spent on the original phone ($600 for an 8gig) which is $400 more than you are paying now for a newer phone.
customers are complaining because they are paying $20 extra a month for the same plan, but not happy that they are saving $400 off the phone? with the subsidy you are actually only paying about $3.33 more a month over what you were paying if you take into account that extra $400 in savings off the phone, and divide it over the 2 years of the contract.
As for the "new customer" deal, you need to be a new customer if you expect AT&T to discount your phone at such a high amount, because again, if they gave anyone the phone at 200 bucks, they would be losing the remaining money left over from their current phone that AT&T also subsidized.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
And again this goes back to the problem at hand, that we aren't (at least at first) given the option to pay full price and keep the cheaper data plan, although I'm sure that will be offered in the future. If you buy the 3G iphone for full price and you are currently on the old iphone plan, AT&T won't be able to force you to change your data plan because they aren't subsidizing the cost of the phone, and can't force you to sign a contract. People with current EDGE iphones who want to keep their cheaper data plan will probably (don't quote me on this) but should be able to pay full price for the 3G iphone without a contract and just plop their sim into the new iphone and continue to pay their discount rate.
I'm sure they are holding this off at first to make sure they have enough stock for new customers since a new customer will obviously generate more income for them. but once that first wave goes away, they will open up the ability to get a new phone without signing a contract, and if you don't sign a contract, they aren't able to raise your rates... win-win.
however, this goes back to my original complaint, which should be the one people are using, and that is that AT&T should offer the choice. If I want to pay full price for a phone, I should be able to do so and have a plan similar to the original iphone plan. if I want to come to AT&T with my own phone, I should be able to just sign up for a cheaper plan. I shouldn't be forced to pitch into the subsidy pot for people that chose to have their phone subsidized. I think that carriers steer away from this because it's obvious people just really don't understand what's really going on.
There really is no reason AT&T has to sell the iPhone at full price and offer the service plan at a lower price. AT&T doesn't sell its other 3G services at a lower price. Nor does Verizon offer 3G at a lower price. AT&T like Verizon is able to raise its revenue per user by charging more for 3G services.
You are free to come to AT&T with your own GSM phone. But AT&T like Verizon and every other mobile carrier are going to charge a premium for unlimited 3G.
$20-25 without any texting.
Which you don't get under any CURRENT Verizon plans either.
I'm not saying it's out of line with AT&T plans. I'm saying its considerably more than I'm paying now...even with better a better SMS package included.
AGAIN, because you have an older Verizon plan that is cheaper than current Verizon plans. Comparing old Verizon plans to new AT&T plans will almost always result in being able to say that "hey, my old plan is cheaper". Vice versa works too...I can compare my old AT&T plan to Verizon and make the same useless observation.
I can afford one fine. I am just pointing out that it costs much more than advertised, particularly for people NOT in my situation, like current non-upgrade eligible customers.
Odds are AT&T will take care of them. Just not on July 11. In any case, it's rather CLEAR how the subsidized phone market works.
That we agree on. The only thing I would add is since AT&T is charging another $10 a month, they out to at least include 200 SMS as they did before.
Except their other CURRENT plans don't either. And neither does Verizon's.
1) The phone has the potential to cost far more than $199/299 for certain customers (my not included). It's not clear what a "new" contract means.
And yet still cost $100 less than the previous iPhone. It certainly IS clear what NEW contract means. It means NEW contract. I have an account with AT&T. Because my contract is fullfilled I have NO CONTRACT. It says so when I pull up my account profile and I can leave any time I want and pay no fees.
When I get my iPhone I will then have a NEW CONTRACT. If I had an EXISTING CONTRACT I have THREE CHOICES:
1) Break my existing contract, pay the penalty and get a NEW CONTRACT.
2) Wait until my existing contract ends and get a NEW CONTRACT.
3) Buy a NEW CONTRACT and have two active contracts on my account.
actually four choices:
4) Try to find a nice CSR that will let me get a NEW CONTRACT and drop my OLD CONTRACT without a fee. This ain't likely anytime in July with the iPhone but might be possible later.
It is only "unclear" because you choose to make it so.
2) The removal of SMS despite charging $10 a month more.
Because companies change plans as time passes. In any case, AT&T has competitive plans vs Verizon (when you compare apples to apples) and the iPhone plan is $10 LESS than the equivalent Verizon plan and better.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
There were actually a good number of folks that got a free backup phone since you had to get a new 2 year contract anyway. I guessing they'll get to slide since they are a "current iPhone user" but maybe not.
the reason you didn't get $200 of your razr as I tried to explain before is that your original moto phone was given the $200 subsidy.. since you didn't uphold your end of the contract of keeping the phone for 2 years, they couldn't give you the $200 off the new phone because you still owed them for your original $200 that they never recouped from you when you lost, or broke your first phone. Hope that makes more sense.
I never claimed I didn't understand. Why do you insist that you know more about this? I fully understand why. What I take issue with is not the price of the phone, but the fact that I had to sign up for a a new contract AND pay a large amount for the phone.
The $199 price is what's stated in a keynote marketing presentation. If the presentation said that the pricing was to be $600 again, and then months later they decided to charge $199, would you demand they take your $600 because that's what they quoted you? The pricing, terms and conditions are easy to follow on the AT&T and Apple web site. Because you don't like it doesn't make it illegal, or confusing.
You're amazing. All I am saying is that Apple's advertising (not the keynote pres) is deceptive. They state the iPhone is $199/$299 with a new 2 year contract. The problem with that is the word "new." A current customer can get a "new" 2 year contract and still pay full price. Perhaps people should understand the subsidy, but many don't. You have Apple screaming that a product they sell costs X/Y. In fact, that price only applies to new AT&T customers and those eligible for a new phone at upgrade pricing. It might not be illegal, but it's not clear either.
it's not 3G it's 100% the subsidy. the data plans aren't going up across the board, the original iphone had a cheaper plan than all other phones when it was released. The prices for data and sms haven't changed at AT&T at all. the only thing that has changed is the amount the current iphone users will have to pay if they go up to a 3G iphone, and that is because of the subsidy. if it were because of 3G, the data plans would have went up years ago when I had an EDGE treo 650 and AT&T started rolling out 3G phones. When I upgraded to a blackjack, (3G) my price didn't go up.. I was still paying the same price for data.
Fair enough.
The comparison of the old and new plans is irrelevant because we aren't taking into account how much people spent on the original phone ($600 for an 8gig) which is $400 more than you are paying now for a newer phone.
It's not irrelevant if you're simply using it to compare cost over a few years time. The new phone is actually more expensive than the old was with its higher price.
customers are complaining because they are paying $20 extra a month for the same plan, but not happy that they are saving $400 off the phone? with the subsidy you are actually only paying about $3.33 more a month over what you were paying if you take into account that extra $400 in savings off the phone, and divide it over the 2 years of the contract.
$20 more per month is $240 per year. In two years, they've paid more for the phone than they would have for the old one.
As for the "new customer" deal, you need to be a new customer if you expect AT&T to discount your phone at such a high amount, because again, if they gave anyone the phone at 200 bucks, they would be losing the remaining money left over from their current phone that AT&T also subsidized.
The reason they are giving the current iphone customers the ability to upgrade for $199 is because those customers didn't receive a subsidy when they first purchased the phone, and were rewarded with a cheaper plan. now that they are receiving a subsidy, they have to pay for their plan like every other customer.
Again...I understand. But Apple is selling the product too...and it's not clear, at least to some. I'm telling you...just watch the reaction over time.
And again this goes back to the problem at hand, that we aren't (at least at first) given the option to pay full price and keep the cheaper data plan, although I'm sure that will be offered in the future. If you buy the 3G iphone for full price and you are currently on the old iphone plan, AT&T won't be able to force you to change your data plan because they aren't subsidizing the cost of the phone, and can't force you to sign a contract. People with current EDGE iphones who want to keep their cheaper data plan will probably (don't quote me on this) but should be able to pay full price for the 3G iphone without a contract and just plop their sim into the new iphone and continue to pay their discount rate.
I'm sure they are holding this off at first to make sure they have enough stock for new customers since a new customer will obviously generate more income for them. but once that first wave goes away, they will open up the ability to get a new phone without signing a contract, and if you don't sign a contract, they aren't able to raise your rates... win-win.
This goes to my point about clarity. Imagine J6P reading what you just wrote. Clear as a bell!
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
also i need to look into insurance costs.
FOR THOSE UNHAPPY ABOUT DEALING WITH AT&T:
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
Time is money.
3G is that much faster than 2G... I speak from experience.
Time is money.
3G is that much faster than 2G... I speak from experience.
Experience with a 3G iPhone? Course not.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
Time is money for a lot of people... At my office, I have a very slow internet connection. The one I have at home is 15 to 20 times faster. So, when at work, I either don't surf to certain pages or, when I have to, I make sure I have something else to do while they load. Any downloading at work takes hours, and thus must be done during meetings or lunch or after work so as not to interfere with my work. At home, I have the luxury of broadband, so I can set a large download, for example a system update, and it is finished before I an get back from making a cup of coffee, or while I check my mail. Thus, there are certain considerations I have to make while at work, especially considering workflows.
Same for my current cel phone. At home, I have a solid three signal strength and can jump through pages on EZWeb pretty quickly. At work (my office building is nestled between three mountains), I usually have one stripe, two at low tide (the signal bounces off the water to an antenna on the other side of a bay), and the difference is agonizing; timed it once and it was about 3X at 2 stripes, 5X at 1. So, again, there are certain things I will not do on my cel phone (sending video, for example) while at work, but are not a problem elsewhere. And yes, at work, a couple of minutes saved makes the world of difference.
FOR THOSE UNHAPPY ABOUT DEALING WITH AT&T:
1) 3G is not THAT much faster than 2G. Just seconds more. You'll save battery life with 2G.***
which leads me to...
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
***While 3G can be three to eight times faster than the 2G network, that's only in a perfect scenario and Apple and AT&T are promising just twice the speed.
Experience with a 3G iPhone? Course not.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
You post doesn't make much sense. You have no source to back up your statements and you don't even use a "from my experience" to indicate that your personal experience has been less than stellar with 3G. 3G is just a marketing term that means 3rd generation but in regards to cell networks can mean CDMA2000 or UTMS. Within that you EV-DO and HSDPA, HSUPA, and HSPA+. Within those you different speeds up and down. There is no single definition to define 3G so you non qualified, unsubstantiated claim means nothing. I implore you to clarify.
Older and cheaper 3G handsets may have slower 3G chips that only have a theoretical max speed of 3.6Mbps, while the iPhone has a chip capable of 7.2Mbps, but even the 3.6Mbps would be unobtainable with the Phone's 412Mhz CPU and 128MB RAM. I can't even get more than 2.3Mbps on an 802.11G WiFi connection. So what phone are you talking about?
The other issue is the carrier and that area you are in. Having a 3G-capable cell phone is pointless if there is no network to support it. There will certaily be people complaining that the iPhone sucks and is slow because they using it on an EDGE network. In my current area EDGE is ~180Kbps while HSDPA is ~1.5Mbps. That is an average slightly higher than AT&T's claim of 1.4Mbps. You do the math, the speed is more than 2x, but in your defense, that 8.3x network speed increase (on my Mac with an AT&T Sierra AirCard) doesn't amount to anywhere near 8.3x page rendering increase. But that is way of things, no one technically savvy expects a 1:1 increase in speed from start to finish. What carrier did you use and where?
As for your "97% don't want 3G", you are wrong. That is the number one feature people have been complaining about for 18 months. And as for your "it's just seconds faster" comment, this is so odd I'm not sure how to answer it, but I'll try. Everything relating to time can be measured in seconds so you'll have to be more specific. You have explained nothing with that statement. You appear to make it in a pejorative sense, but a few seconds per webpage adds up to a great deal of time very quickly. Furthermore, AT&T and Apple aren't promising any minimum speed increase for 3G iPhone users as you say. There are posters here that are still in EDGE-only areas and there places where the 3G tower will be bogged down at certain time of the day or the user will be too far away to get an optimal speed connection. They can state an average increase, but they can't guarantee anything.
if i get my wife one i'll get a refurbished V1 for her. my big thing is when will att and apple have refurbished ones, i'm not paying the ebay prices i've seen lately for a "back up phone.
The high eBay prices are only because there is no supply. Once the 3G iPHone hits the price will come down considerably. But I'd check Craig's List first. Since listing is free and there will surely be local iPhones for sale you can save a lot of overhead costs, just make sure you meet in a public place.
Experience with a 3G iPhone? Course not.
Just watch the demo Steve showed to see the comparisons between old and new iPhone speeds. Once again, they are only promising twice the speed.
And time is money for whom? iPhone buyers? Are you serious? I am willing to bet that 97% of iPhone lovers don't/won't need those kind of speeds. If they did they wouldn't have an iPhone right now.
Actually the demo's showed 3G being around 3 times faster than EDGE. But that is not the entire difference.
WiFi is significantly faster than EDGE. Using a speed measuring webapp. I recorded my iPhone on WiFi downloading at nearly 5Mbps and EDGE at 90Kbps. 3G is closer to WiFi than it is to EDGE.
3G not only offers more speed but less latency. Downloading media (video, audio) is next to impossible on EDGE because of latency as much as speed.
2) There WILL be unlocked 2nd gen iPhones available. Just be patient and you will have a choice. Search for it on the net.
We know there will be unlocked iPhones sold in Europe. So they will be available but likely at an incredibly high price.
It remains to be seen how someone will walk into AT&T or Apple and walk out without a subscription, since that is an explicit requirement of purchasing the phone.
True, not a 3G iPhone. Experience with an old 2G phone, a PHS, and currently have a 3G phone. The difference is amazing.
Time is money for a lot of people... At my office, I have a very slow internet connection. The one I have at home is 15 to 20 times faster. So, when at work, I either don't surf to certain pages or, when I have to, I make sure I have something else to do while they load. Any downloading at work takes hours, and thus must be done during meetings or lunch or after work so as not to interfere with my work. At home, I have the luxury of broadband, so I can set a large download, for example a system update, and it is finished before I an get back from making a cup of coffee, or while I check my mail. Thus, there are certain considerations I have to make while at work, especially considering workflows.
Same for my current cel phone. At home, I have a solid three signal strength and can jump through pages on EZWeb pretty quickly. At work (my office building is nestled between three mountains), I usually have one stripe, two at low tide (the signal bounces off the water to an antenna on the other side of a bay), and the difference is agonizing; timed it once and it was about 3X at 2 stripes, 5X at 1. So, again, there are certain things I will not do on my cel phone (sending video, for example) while at work, but are not a problem elsewhere. And yes, at work, a couple of minutes saved makes the world of difference.
Welcome to the wonderful world of a strong WiFi signal. It's faster and will serve you better in the end. AND all iPhones can use it. I'm sorry your net connection at work is slow. Hopefully you will gain more hotspot access. For many of us there are fast hotspots everywhere. I have a fast one at work, campus and home as well as the malls, etc.
As for your "97% don't want 3G", you are wrong.
Didn't say "don't want" I said "don't/won't need".
Actually the demo's showed 3G being around 3 times faster than EDGE. But that is not the entire difference.
Sure it is because they won't be guaranteeing even that. Wait and see the speeds that occur. They won't be fast enough to make dealing with AT&T's ripoff rates feel any better. I can assure you this pricing issue will not die down. Unlocking is the way to go.
Welcome to the wonderful world of a strong WiFi signal. It's faster and will serve you better in the end. AND all iPhones can use it.
That makes no sense to me as a response to that post. So what are you expecting that person to do, set up an AP in his employer's building?