Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
I never said that aluminum was cheaper to produce than plastic, only that competitors now offer aluminum notebooks for the same price as the plastic MacBook, so if Apple actually wants customers to be happy, it will release those aluminum MacBooks are the same current prices.
If someone wants a Blu-Ray drive for back-ups, then an external Blu-Ray drive is the obvious solution. Apple, please don't weigh our laptops down with optical drives.
If given a choice between two notebooks --
A) No optical drive, space saved for better fans and cooling and less eight, plus $50 less
Optical drive
I've take notebook A. However, where the Air fails is its 80Gb disk. With a drive that small, users will have to be tied down to external stuff all the time.
For those of us with MacBooks and internal disks of 200Gb or greater, we rarely do need to use our optical drives.
I never said that aluminum was cheaper to produce than plastic, only that competitors now offer aluminum notebooks for the same price as the plastic MacBook, so if Apple actually wants customers to be happy, it will release those aluminum MacBooks are the same current prices.
Ah, I read your, "Using aluminum bodies shouldn't raise prices." comment to mean that the case cost wouldn't change. There are plastic computers that cost a lot more than the MBP. The case cost is very minimal compared to many other components in the system. It's considered a higher-end choice, but the overall cost of the MB, if they did it wouldn't be much more than the current total. This may be part of the lower margins that were mentioned for this quarter.
Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
Ripping CDs (and DVDs) into iTunes. Something a lot of us do a lot of the time. In fact it's more likely that MacBook users do this than MBP users.
Ripping CDs (and DVDs) into iTunes. Something a lot of us do a lot of the time. In fact it's more likely that MacBook users do this than MBP users.
+++
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
Even if iTunes is DRM free, I still greatly prefer buying physical media if it's at a similar price. You have an immediate, lossless backup, all the artwork, and commutability. It's really a far greater value than a data file you have to back up, and rip to a CD so that you can share with non-technophile friends or use in a car or home CD unit.
I really don't get this sort of comment. It's a feature that some people are hoping would get added to the product line on the next update, that's how the discussion arose. I too would like it, but I'm realistic enough to know that it's probably not going to happen.
IMO, one would be crazy to buy a $1,800 desktop or a $2,800 laptop that didn't include Blu-Ray support at this point in time; you're not going to be able to add it in later, and most people would hang on to a computer that price for 3-4 years. That's a long time to be stuck behind the curve. It'd be great if Apple included Blu-Ray support in time for this Christmas, but I think you're right that we realistically won't see it until Macworld January.
I never said that aluminum was cheaper to produce than plastic, only that competitors now offer aluminum notebooks for the same price as the plastic MacBook, so if Apple actually wants customers to be happy, it will release those aluminum MacBooks are the same current prices.
The only ones (other than Apple's) I've seen are plastic painted with a fake metal look. Can you provide a brand and model number?
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
Aluminum is most costly than plastic. It's even more costly than steel as I hear it's harder to ore* and purify,
I'm not sure the plastic material itself is the cheap part, I think it's the manufacture, injection molding is a cheap and easy process. By volume, common plastics can easily cost as much as aluminum.
Quote:
Hear, hear! I'm highly skeptical of it happening just yet but optical drives are getting like floppy drives and need to be removed. I hope Apple will push the threshold with this transition, too. They can still offer the MBA optical drive, the Remote Disc option, and offer their OS on specialized flash drives.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcarling
If someone wants a Blu-Ray drive for back-ups, then an external Blu-Ray drive is the obvious solution. Apple, please don't weigh our laptops down with optical drives.
The drives aren't that heavy, I think about the weight of an iPhone. I'll have to check. I would prefer to have a bay, though that has potential for problems too, but when the drive in my old Compaq died, I slapped in a new one. And I have an option to put a hard drive or battery there instead too.
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
You're preaching to the choir.
I've argued in another thread that the MB and MBP should keep the optical drive. I think that it'll eventually get phased out, at least on the MB. You do bring up a good justification for keeping it on the MBP though.
I would like to see BR get added to some Macs. At least the pro machines.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
This is a really good point. Thanks for making it. I would add that about 99% of professional photographers do exactly this. Of course, when we get SSD drives with 256 Gb+ capacities and above and superfast wireless transfer of data, we may have to revisit this question. But for now, an in-built DVD drive is a must have, especially if your MacBook is your only computer.
This is a really good point. Thanks for making it. I would add that about 99% of professional photographers do exactly this. Of course, when we get SSD drives with 256 Gb+ capacities and above and superfast wireless transfer of data, we may have to revisit this question. But for now, an in-built DVD drive is a must have, especially if your MacBook is your only computer.
I would contend that DVD backups, while still common, are not the most efficient means for making a backup. A DVD will hold ~4 to 8.5GB, if it's just for backup the process of making hte temp file, burning the disc and then checking the disc is all very time consuming.The faster you do the burning the more likely you are to have a disc error, you can even have a bad disc, in general, but won't know until you get a burn error while burning. Now, a 250GB external HDD will easily fit in any bag you carry your computer (and takes less room than a spool or case of discs that match it's capacity, they are inexpensive compared to Flash, and is considerably faster to make a copy with than using any optical format.y completed
I understand that they would want to give their customers a copy on optical formats after they completed their work, but how many are only using notebooks for this? I am under that impression that a photographer should be using a high-quality monitor for such work. If so, then wherever they have their monitor they can also have any number of CD/DVD/BR burners that attach by FW or USB.
I would contend that DVD backups, while still common, are not the most efficient means for making a backup. A DVD will hold ~4 to 8.5GB, if it's just for backup the process of making hte temp file, burning the disc and then checking the disc is all very time consuming.The faster you do the burning the more likely you are to have a disc error, you can even have a bad disc, in general, but won't know until you get a burn error while burning. Now, a 250GB external HDD will easily fit in any bag you carry your computer (and takes less room than a spool or case of discs that match it's capacity, they are inexpensive compared to Flash, and is considerably faster to make a copy with than using any optical format.y completed
I understand that they would want to give their customers a copy on optical formats after they completed their work, but how many are only using notebooks for this? I am under that impression that a photographer should be using a high-quality monitor for such work. If so, then wherever they have their monitor they can also have any number of CD/DVD/BR burners that attach by FW or USB.
YOu must be someone who is always in the house, and never touches his stuff. HDD get dropped when they are external. They also fail at high rates when outside.
Dropping a DVD, even in water, rarely causes it to become damaged, unless it's out of the jacket which it's immediately put in when burning is finished.
What you're saying here has nothing to dowith the real world.
The fact of the matter is, that's the way it's done, even when in the studio. Period!
It USED to be on tape, and later on other HDDs. But when studios found those HDDs to be unreadable after a year or so, that idea died real fast.
You obviously don't do this kind of work, so your reasons don't work either. Don't forget that this was my business for decades. I'm familiar with all of this nonsense since film. We used to make dupes for photographers, and studios, for safety. Then digital scans on CD, now, it's DVD, and moving, whenever possible, to BD.
Perhaps the casual user may not NEED an optical drive, but most will still want one.
Every time we discuss having to take something external because a Mac doesn't have one, people here complain about that. So, leave the Air as the crippled machine for now.
I would have thought a USB2 or Firewire Thumb Drive would be better for this sort of backup.
Transfer times would be much faster, and the media more reliable.
No. No one accepts thumb drives as an asset. Maybe someday, but not now. If you try to give an ad agency a thumb drive, you'll get a funny look, and will be told to put it on a Cd, or DVD.
You also don't want to FedEx thumb drives. I've heard of them arriving with the data corrupted from some methods they use to check packages.
Rather than fight over the need for an optical drive, couldn't Apple simply make a dual-use bay so that users have the choice of picking the optical or using an extra battery?
YOu must be someone who is always in the house, and never touches his stuff. HDD get dropped when they are external. They also fail at high rates when outside.
[...]
I yield to you points about the professional end of things, but I still feel that this will happen within the next three years (within 2 case revisions) since it does take up consider room in a notebook while offering seldom usage to most.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frank777
Rather than fight over the need for an optical drive, couldn't Apple simply make a dual-use bay so that users have the choice of picking the optical or using an extra battery?
Let's move on, shall we?
That would mean making a latch and having seams in the design. I think Jobs has nightmares about these things so I'd say it's not likely, but I'd sure go for it.
Rather than fight over the need for an optical drive, couldn't Apple simply make a dual-use bay so that users have the choice of picking the optical or using an extra battery?
Let's move on, shall we?
Since you raised one issue, and just raised another, with a question, it's odd that you would say that we should move on. We would have, if you didn't respond in that way.
A couple here are asking for NO optical drive, no slot for it, etc.
As a bay is even larger than a permanent drive by itself, I doubt they would want that either, but maybe...
Comments
Um... you used ore as a noun.
Oops. Corrected.
This isn't a serious response from you, is it?
Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
If someone wants a Blu-Ray drive for back-ups, then an external Blu-Ray drive is the obvious solution. Apple, please don't weigh our laptops down with optical drives.
If given a choice between two notebooks --
A) No optical drive, space saved for better fans and cooling and less eight, plus $50 less
I've take notebook A. However, where the Air fails is its 80Gb disk. With a drive that small, users will have to be tied down to external stuff all the time.
For those of us with MacBooks and internal disks of 200Gb or greater, we rarely do need to use our optical drives.
I never said that aluminum was cheaper to produce than plastic, only that competitors now offer aluminum notebooks for the same price as the plastic MacBook, so if Apple actually wants customers to be happy, it will release those aluminum MacBooks are the same current prices.
Ah, I read your, "Using aluminum bodies shouldn't raise prices." comment to mean that the case cost wouldn't change. There are plastic computers that cost a lot more than the MBP. The case cost is very minimal compared to many other components in the system. It's considered a higher-end choice, but the overall cost of the MB, if they did it wouldn't be much more than the current total. This may be part of the lower margins that were mentioned for this quarter.
Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
Just that I don't agree.
Yes, the optical drives in notebooks take up too much space and are used very little by most. What is your argument that optical drives should be retained?
Ripping CDs (and DVDs) into iTunes. Something a lot of us do a lot of the time. In fact it's more likely that MacBook users do this than MBP users.
Ripping CDs (and DVDs) into iTunes. Something a lot of us do a lot of the time. In fact it's more likely that MacBook users do this than MBP users.
+++
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
+++
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
Even if iTunes is DRM free, I still greatly prefer buying physical media if it's at a similar price. You have an immediate, lossless backup, all the artwork, and commutability. It's really a far greater value than a data file you have to back up, and rip to a CD so that you can share with non-technophile friends or use in a car or home CD unit.
I really don't get this sort of comment. It's a feature that some people are hoping would get added to the product line on the next update, that's how the discussion arose. I too would like it, but I'm realistic enough to know that it's probably not going to happen.
IMO, one would be crazy to buy a $1,800 desktop or a $2,800 laptop that didn't include Blu-Ray support at this point in time; you're not going to be able to add it in later, and most people would hang on to a computer that price for 3-4 years. That's a long time to be stuck behind the curve. It'd be great if Apple included Blu-Ray support in time for this Christmas, but I think you're right that we realistically won't see it until Macworld January.
I never said that aluminum was cheaper to produce than plastic, only that competitors now offer aluminum notebooks for the same price as the plastic MacBook, so if Apple actually wants customers to be happy, it will release those aluminum MacBooks are the same current prices.
The only ones (other than Apple's) I've seen are plastic painted with a fake metal look. Can you provide a brand and model number?
Aluminum is most costly than plastic. It's even more costly than steel as I hear it's harder to ore* and purify,
I'm not sure the plastic material itself is the cheap part, I think it's the manufacture, injection molding is a cheap and easy process. By volume, common plastics can easily cost as much as aluminum.
Hear, hear! I'm highly skeptical of it happening just yet but optical drives are getting like floppy drives and need to be removed. I hope Apple will push the threshold with this transition, too. They can still offer the MBA optical drive, the Remote Disc option, and offer their OS on specialized flash drives.
If someone wants a Blu-Ray drive for back-ups, then an external Blu-Ray drive is the obvious solution. Apple, please don't weigh our laptops down with optical drives.
The drives aren't that heavy, I think about the weight of an iPhone. I'll have to check. I would prefer to have a bay, though that has potential for problems too, but when the drive in my old Compaq died, I slapped in a new one. And I have an option to put a hard drive or battery there instead too.
+++
Keep the optical drive at least until the iTunes music store is DRM free. Then music purchased there will be equivalent to music on a CD. IMO, music purchased with DRM is inferior to that on a CD.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
You're preaching to the choir.
I've argued in another thread that the MB and MBP should keep the optical drive. I think that it'll eventually get phased out, at least on the MB. You do bring up a good justification for keeping it on the MBP though.
I would like to see BR get added to some Macs. At least the pro machines.
A lot of photographers shooting in the field take MBP's, and use DVD to do immediate backups of their files. The fewer things carried means less to get lost, break, or otherwise cause problems with cables etc.
One of the biggest complaints about the Air is that it DOESN'T have a built-in drive. People on these forums have been complaining about that. This isn't the time to stop having built-in optical drives.
There are also those of us who don't want to buy compressed music.
This is a really good point. Thanks for making it. I would add that about 99% of professional photographers do exactly this. Of course, when we get SSD drives with 256 Gb+ capacities and above and superfast wireless transfer of data, we may have to revisit this question. But for now, an in-built DVD drive is a must have, especially if your MacBook is your only computer.
This is a really good point. Thanks for making it. I would add that about 99% of professional photographers do exactly this. Of course, when we get SSD drives with 256 Gb+ capacities and above and superfast wireless transfer of data, we may have to revisit this question. But for now, an in-built DVD drive is a must have, especially if your MacBook is your only computer.
I would contend that DVD backups, while still common, are not the most efficient means for making a backup. A DVD will hold ~4 to 8.5GB, if it's just for backup the process of making hte temp file, burning the disc and then checking the disc is all very time consuming.The faster you do the burning the more likely you are to have a disc error, you can even have a bad disc, in general, but won't know until you get a burn error while burning. Now, a 250GB external HDD will easily fit in any bag you carry your computer (and takes less room than a spool or case of discs that match it's capacity, they are inexpensive compared to Flash, and is considerably faster to make a copy with than using any optical format.y completed
I understand that they would want to give their customers a copy on optical formats after they completed their work, but how many are only using notebooks for this? I am under that impression that a photographer should be using a high-quality monitor for such work. If so, then wherever they have their monitor they can also have any number of CD/DVD/BR burners that attach by FW or USB.
Transfer times would be much faster, and the media more reliable.
I would contend that DVD backups, while still common, are not the most efficient means for making a backup. A DVD will hold ~4 to 8.5GB, if it's just for backup the process of making hte temp file, burning the disc and then checking the disc is all very time consuming.The faster you do the burning the more likely you are to have a disc error, you can even have a bad disc, in general, but won't know until you get a burn error while burning. Now, a 250GB external HDD will easily fit in any bag you carry your computer (and takes less room than a spool or case of discs that match it's capacity, they are inexpensive compared to Flash, and is considerably faster to make a copy with than using any optical format.y completed
I understand that they would want to give their customers a copy on optical formats after they completed their work, but how many are only using notebooks for this? I am under that impression that a photographer should be using a high-quality monitor for such work. If so, then wherever they have their monitor they can also have any number of CD/DVD/BR burners that attach by FW or USB.
YOu must be someone who is always in the house, and never touches his stuff. HDD get dropped when they are external. They also fail at high rates when outside.
Dropping a DVD, even in water, rarely causes it to become damaged, unless it's out of the jacket which it's immediately put in when burning is finished.
What you're saying here has nothing to dowith the real world.
The fact of the matter is, that's the way it's done, even when in the studio. Period!
It USED to be on tape, and later on other HDDs. But when studios found those HDDs to be unreadable after a year or so, that idea died real fast.
You obviously don't do this kind of work, so your reasons don't work either. Don't forget that this was my business for decades. I'm familiar with all of this nonsense since film. We used to make dupes for photographers, and studios, for safety. Then digital scans on CD, now, it's DVD, and moving, whenever possible, to BD.
Perhaps the casual user may not NEED an optical drive, but most will still want one.
Every time we discuss having to take something external because a Mac doesn't have one, people here complain about that. So, leave the Air as the crippled machine for now.
I would have thought a USB2 or Firewire Thumb Drive would be better for this sort of backup.
Transfer times would be much faster, and the media more reliable.
No. No one accepts thumb drives as an asset. Maybe someday, but not now. If you try to give an ad agency a thumb drive, you'll get a funny look, and will be told to put it on a Cd, or DVD.
You also don't want to FedEx thumb drives. I've heard of them arriving with the data corrupted from some methods they use to check packages.
Let's move on, shall we?
YOu must be someone who is always in the house, and never touches his stuff. HDD get dropped when they are external. They also fail at high rates when outside.
[...]
I yield to you points about the professional end of things, but I still feel that this will happen within the next three years (within 2 case revisions) since it does take up consider room in a notebook while offering seldom usage to most.
Rather than fight over the need for an optical drive, couldn't Apple simply make a dual-use bay so that users have the choice of picking the optical or using an extra battery?
Let's move on, shall we?
That would mean making a latch and having seams in the design. I think Jobs has nightmares about these things so I'd say it's not likely, but I'd sure go for it.
Rather than fight over the need for an optical drive, couldn't Apple simply make a dual-use bay so that users have the choice of picking the optical or using an extra battery?
Let's move on, shall we?
Since you raised one issue, and just raised another, with a question, it's odd that you would say that we should move on. We would have, if you didn't respond in that way.
A couple here are asking for NO optical drive, no slot for it, etc.
As a bay is even larger than a permanent drive by itself, I doubt they would want that either, but maybe...