1) MacBooks are cheap entry level systems so to expect them to be used for serious video production is nonsense. They should, like all Mac products be *able* to do video editing, but not jump through any design hoops to do so.
There are entry level Macs, entry level for Apple, but on the overall landscape, Macs are not really entry level computers.
A single connector is hardly a difficult hoop to jump though.
Quote:
2) Most video cameras in use today and in the last few years have a USB connector or both a USB and Firewire connector. Consumer level cameras in line with the consumer level MacBook that have only firewire and no USB are very rare indeed.
Please, have you actually used them? I have two such camcorders, the USB connector is only for transferring photos, the Firewire connector is only for transferring video. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but I think there are technical limitations. I haven't heard of a "deck control" mode for USB, so the computer can't control the camcorder's deck for capture.
Quote:
The real downside to not having firewire, is the loss of target disc mode.
There are already several posts in this thread saying there are working Apple supported alternatives. Including mine.
Quote:
But then it's not Apple's fault that after years of promoting FireWire, none of the other big PC companies and camera companies jumped on board.
From what I understand, Apple alienated some of its earlier partners, didn't push to have FW 800 on all machines, and dropped the ball on getting faster versions out. If Intel had put Firewire into their chipset, I don't think this would be a problem, but Apple was too pushy in the late ;90s and Intel backed out. Apple waited so long to update the standard that the shift away from tapes made its use for video less relevant, and high performance was eaten bay eSATA. All the major camera companies did accept Firewire.
To me FW800 is great and being backward compatible is so nice. Why in the name of Zeus' butthole, then, does it have a different plug that none of the millions of FW400 devices can use... at least USB was smart enough to have the same jack.
It was arrogant of FW800 designers to assume we were willing to put -- face it -- the losing, niche FW400 format to death in favor of another niche format, that is also destined to probably lose.
I don't think they wanted to do that. I think the problem was that going to 800MHz caused some problems for RFI at the time, I think it's a problem that has been resolved. What Firewire did was add a second 400MHz channel, which pretty much means a new connector. USB didn't have to go that fast for its update.
Those pics look like a current MBP and a current MBA.
The top pic was of the current MacBook Pro, yes. The bottom pic was of the new MacBook Pro. Notice the speaker grills? I was contrasting their trackpads.
Quote:
Originally Posted by solipsism
WHile the most recent MBP did get the multi-touch gesture support, the trackpad HW did not change. I suspect that the new MBPs (and MBs) will al least get the larger MBA trackpad with multi-touch gesture support.... if they don't get a full multi-ouch trackpad with visual output display oppion.
Yeah, I wasn't arguing that the MB and MBP wouldn't be getting the oversized, MultiTouch trackpad of the Air. It's pretty obvious from all the pics that both will.
I was referencing the ideas being tossed around about a glass trackpad or a glass display that would replace the static trackpad, providing visual feedback, as DED suggested in this article. The pic I posted from the original source shows they'll be using standard static trackpads (though they'll be oversized).
I wouldn't mind seeing an eSata port, and much prefer that over Firewire anyway. I've switched all the editing stations I use to accomodate eSata as it's much faster, and eSata actually allows editing of HDV on an external drive. The main thing for current laptops is needing an ExpressCard with eSata ports, so having it built-in would be great.
But not having a firewire port is confusing. Most camcorders introduced in the past 8 years all use Firewire to download the video from tape. Without Firewire, people will have to buy a Firewire ExpressCard to get the functionality back.
There are such things as USB to FireWire adapters so I don't know what the fuss is about. Apple might even include one. Here's one model on the market that hooks up to FireWire camcorders:
You don't know what the fuss is about? Then obviously you are not aware of the speed difference between FW 800 and USB 2. That becomes a serious issue with external hard drives, and when using a card reader to download several hundred images as Pro photographers do every day!
Try doing a cloned backup to an external drive using USB 2, and then FW 800. If you can't see the difference, then you're blind. Same for downloading CF cards with a really fast reader like the Sandisk Extreme IV hooked up to FW 800.
No Firewire 800, means no sale for me. I was really hoping that Apple would extend FW 800 to the MacBook, I don't need the features of a MacBook Pro, as long as the Macbook has FW 800.
A single connector is hardly a difficult hoop to jump though.
I don't want to start a flame war here but lot of what you say still makes no sense. If adding the port requires removing another one, then yes... that's a hoop that would ruin the MacBook while making it easier for some tiny portion of folks with FireWire only camcorders.
Quote:
Originally Posted by JeffDM
Please, have you actually used them? I have two such camcorders, the USB connector is only for transferring photos, the Firewire connector is only for transferring video. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but I think there are technical limitations. I haven't heard of a "deck control" mode for USB, so the computer can't control the camcorder's deck for capture.
See, here's where you lose me again.
Yes, I do use them, and as I said way back in my first post, I work in an all Mac environment that uses video and portables and I have to troubleshoot these very issues all day long sometimes. I do know what I am talking about here. You on the other hand appear to be just talking from your limited personal experience, since all your examples reference your own equipment.
By far the majority (not all) of consumer level cameras use USB and can output video over USB. You also mention using FCP on a MacBook and I can tell you authoritatively, based on years of experience that that is an unusual requirement. The majority use by far on the MacBook is a consumer level USB based camera and iMovie. I have yet to meet anyone actually that does professional level video and uses FCP on a MacBook. These people use a MacBook Pro, or the really serious ones use desktops.
The idea that a sub-1000 dollar MacBook needs to be able to connect to a FireWire based camera so the user can use Final Cut Studio on it to produce what ... A TV Show? Is just over the top at best. It would be nice if they cooked dinner as well but that is not what they are designed for.
Also, more video in general is done on an iMac than is ever done on a portable. Portables, especially entry level consumer portables like a MacBook should be capable of doing video, but they are not aimed at the video production market by any means.
You seem to be someone who is maybe just too cheap to buy the right tools for the job?
>> (Originally Posted by JBridges): Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. Nonsense, of
course you can, I have done it many times! <<
Can you please explain HOW? The only way I've ever heard of to turn your MacBook into a target disk was by plugging in a FireWire cable and restarting while holding down the T key. That does not work with USB. So please tell us how you do it with USB?
>> (Originally Posted by JBridges): Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. Nonsense, of
course you can, I have done it many times! <<
Can you please explain HOW? The only way I've ever heard of to turn your MacBook into a target disk was by plugging in a FireWire cable and restarting while holding down the T key. That does not work with USB. So please tell us how you do it with USB?
Thanks.
Booting from a USB drive is different from target disk mode. The replacement for Target Disk Mode is running a version of Migration Assistant over a network.
You don't know what the fuss is about? Then obviously you are not aware of the speed difference between FW 800 and USB 2. That becomes a serious issue with external hard drives, and when using a card reader to download several hundred images as Pro photographers do every day!
Try doing a cloned backup to an external drive using USB 2, and then FW 800. If you can't see the difference, then you're blind. Same for downloading CF cards with a really fast reader like the Sandisk Extreme IV hooked up to FW 800.
No Firewire 800, means no sale for me. I was really hoping that Apple would extend FW 800 to the MacBook, I don't need the features of a MacBook Pro, as long as the Macbook has FW 800.
What? The MacBook didn't have FW 800 in the first place! It's Apple's budget, entry-level laptop. Why were you expecting or anticipating the inclusion of FW 800 at all?
Pro photographers, more often than not, go with the laptop designed with them in mind: the MacBook Pro, which does come with FW 800.
The replacement for Target Disk Mode is running a version of Migration Assistant over a network.
Oh that's HARDLY a replacement. It lets you transfer files alright, but it doesn't let you repair the filesystem or access files directly (as far as I remember). I never used that mode for migration but always for troubleshooting and repairs.
Also, dunno if it has been found/mentioned already but
Quote:
ZPower claims that an undisclosed "major manufacturer" of laptop computers will introduce its silver-zinc battery in a new line of laptops in 2009.
I don't want to start a flame war here but lot of what you say still makes no sense. If adding the port requires removing another one, then yes... that's a hoop that would ruin the MacBook while making it easier for some tiny portion of folks with FireWire only camcorders.
Assuming another port must be sacrificed. We don't know that for sure. That said, this is all speculation based on spy photos, this is probably not a discussion worth having based on sketchy information at best.
Quote:
The idea that a sub-1000 dollar MacBook needs to be able to connect to a FireWire based camera so the user can use Final Cut Studio on it to produce what ... A TV Show? Is just over the top at best. It would be nice if they cooked dinner as well but that is not what they are designed for.
Also, more video in general is done on an iMac than is ever done on a portable. Portables, especially entry level consumer portables like a MacBook should be capable of doing video, but they are not aimed at the video production market by any means.
This is conflating two different issues that I didn't intend to happen. On one issue, I was saying that the market differentiation on the hardware is largely an artificial one, and used FCP as an example. The other, I was saying that the camcorders with both USB and Firewire ports on them that I've read about (plus the two that I have), just don't transfer video over USB.
Quote:
You seem to be someone who is maybe just too cheap to buy the right tools for the job?
No. But maybe it's not the price that's in question, but the portability. Or the consumer using a device that's slightly legacy, even if it's only a year old, such as a pocket HDV camcorder. It has a USB port and a firewire port. It will not transfer video over USB, I've not found an HDV camcorder that does.
But maybe it's not the price that's in question, but the portability.
The MacBook Pro actually feels in many ways lighter than the MacBook because the MBP spreads out its 5.4 lbs. far better than the MB can spread out its 5.0 lbs.
So it really comes down to hardware footprint. But of course, the MB was never designed to serve the pro photographer niche, was it?
am i the only one here that thinks the mini dvi connector is just about the poorest engineered adapter ever?
anything plugged into it virtually gets disconnected just by looking at it!
I've been using the mini dvi connector a great deal since buying my Macbook (1st gen) when they first came out. I have to plug it in every day at work multiple times as well as at home when I want to connect to a 22" LCD. It has never once failed to connect properly, or stay connected even when jostling the machine to move it around the desk for one reason or another. Based on this experience, I feel it's a pretty well engineered adapter. It feels as secure now as the first time I used it.
Firewire 800 is compatible with Firewire 400, so I don't know what the big deal is, it is just a different connector. Personally, Apple should have just gone with Firewire 800 and dropped the Firewire 400 port a long time ago. If they ultimately come out with a faster version of Firewire, maybe they can still use the same Firewire 800 port and use the same concept that USB does. Same connector, just various speed depending on the device that is connected to it.
Sad to see Firewire go, but it had to be done eventually... Apple wants to do small notebooks. Can't have a lot of "legacy" ports. The only problem really is that device designers still add Firewire. With Apple phasing it out, so will they. We might not all be happy about USB winning, but since it has happened, a quick death would be as painless as possible for everyone, I think.
sic transit gloria mundi...
As far as the mystery connector is concerned, my bet's eSATA, as well. It's conveniently located right at the hard disk. eSATA target mode, anyone? The hole could be for a strong screw that holds a hard disk carriage, too.
So, while the article asserts the "phase out" of Firewire, that's obviously not the case, otherwise Apple would have likely killed off Firewire on all their laptops.
I think we'll see Firewire return to MacBooks in future revisions, but in FW 800 form instead. That really depends on what Apple plans on doing with Firewire from here on out. If they release iPods and iPhones with FW 800 cables, they'd have even faster syncing with those devices. Maybe future iterations of the Air will gain FW 800, or even replace USB2 with it. Who knows?
Comments
1) MacBooks are cheap entry level systems so to expect them to be used for serious video production is nonsense. They should, like all Mac products be *able* to do video editing, but not jump through any design hoops to do so.
There are entry level Macs, entry level for Apple, but on the overall landscape, Macs are not really entry level computers.
A single connector is hardly a difficult hoop to jump though.
2) Most video cameras in use today and in the last few years have a USB connector or both a USB and Firewire connector. Consumer level cameras in line with the consumer level MacBook that have only firewire and no USB are very rare indeed.
Please, have you actually used them? I have two such camcorders, the USB connector is only for transferring photos, the Firewire connector is only for transferring video. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but I think there are technical limitations. I haven't heard of a "deck control" mode for USB, so the computer can't control the camcorder's deck for capture.
The real downside to not having firewire, is the loss of target disc mode.
There are already several posts in this thread saying there are working Apple supported alternatives. Including mine.
But then it's not Apple's fault that after years of promoting FireWire, none of the other big PC companies and camera companies jumped on board.
From what I understand, Apple alienated some of its earlier partners, didn't push to have FW 800 on all machines, and dropped the ball on getting faster versions out. If Intel had put Firewire into their chipset, I don't think this would be a problem, but Apple was too pushy in the late ;90s and Intel backed out. Apple waited so long to update the standard that the shift away from tapes made its use for video less relevant, and high performance was eaten bay eSATA. All the major camera companies did accept Firewire.
To me FW800 is great and being backward compatible is so nice. Why in the name of Zeus' butthole, then, does it have a different plug that none of the millions of FW400 devices can use... at least USB was smart enough to have the same jack.
It was arrogant of FW800 designers to assume we were willing to put -- face it -- the losing, niche FW400 format to death in favor of another niche format, that is also destined to probably lose.
I don't think they wanted to do that. I think the problem was that going to 800MHz caused some problems for RFI at the time, I think it's a problem that has been resolved. What Firewire did was add a second 400MHz channel, which pretty much means a new connector. USB didn't have to go that fast for its update.
Those pics look like a current MBP and a current MBA.
The top pic was of the current MacBook Pro, yes. The bottom pic was of the new MacBook Pro. Notice the speaker grills? I was contrasting their trackpads.
WHile the most recent MBP did get the multi-touch gesture support, the trackpad HW did not change. I suspect that the new MBPs (and MBs) will al least get the larger MBA trackpad with multi-touch gesture support.... if they don't get a full multi-ouch trackpad with visual output display oppion.
Yeah, I wasn't arguing that the MB and MBP wouldn't be getting the oversized, MultiTouch trackpad of the Air. It's pretty obvious from all the pics that both will.
I was referencing the ideas being tossed around about a glass trackpad or a glass display that would replace the static trackpad, providing visual feedback, as DED suggested in this article. The pic I posted from the original source shows they'll be using standard static trackpads (though they'll be oversized).
But not having a firewire port is confusing. Most camcorders introduced in the past 8 years all use Firewire to download the video from tape. Without Firewire, people will have to buy a Firewire ExpressCard to get the functionality back.
Hopefully the Macbook Pros are a different story.
There are such things as USB to FireWire adapters so I don't know what the fuss is about. Apple might even include one. Here's one model on the market that hooks up to FireWire camcorders:
You don't know what the fuss is about? Then obviously you are not aware of the speed difference between FW 800 and USB 2. That becomes a serious issue with external hard drives, and when using a card reader to download several hundred images as Pro photographers do every day!
Try doing a cloned backup to an external drive using USB 2, and then FW 800. If you can't see the difference, then you're blind. Same for downloading CF cards with a really fast reader like the Sandisk Extreme IV hooked up to FW 800.
No Firewire 800, means no sale for me. I was really hoping that Apple would extend FW 800 to the MacBook, I don't need the features of a MacBook Pro, as long as the Macbook has FW 800.
What? Why in the world would they not let me use my existing peripherals? I'm not buying that if it doesn't have serial ports.
A single connector is hardly a difficult hoop to jump though.
I don't want to start a flame war here but lot of what you say still makes no sense. If adding the port requires removing another one, then yes... that's a hoop that would ruin the MacBook while making it easier for some tiny portion of folks with FireWire only camcorders.
Please, have you actually used them? I have two such camcorders, the USB connector is only for transferring photos, the Firewire connector is only for transferring video. Yes, it's kind of dumb, but I think there are technical limitations. I haven't heard of a "deck control" mode for USB, so the computer can't control the camcorder's deck for capture.
See, here's where you lose me again.
Yes, I do use them, and as I said way back in my first post, I work in an all Mac environment that uses video and portables and I have to troubleshoot these very issues all day long sometimes. I do know what I am talking about here. You on the other hand appear to be just talking from your limited personal experience, since all your examples reference your own equipment.
By far the majority (not all) of consumer level cameras use USB and can output video over USB. You also mention using FCP on a MacBook and I can tell you authoritatively, based on years of experience that that is an unusual requirement. The majority use by far on the MacBook is a consumer level USB based camera and iMovie. I have yet to meet anyone actually that does professional level video and uses FCP on a MacBook. These people use a MacBook Pro, or the really serious ones use desktops.
The idea that a sub-1000 dollar MacBook needs to be able to connect to a FireWire based camera so the user can use Final Cut Studio on it to produce what ... A TV Show? Is just over the top at best. It would be nice if they cooked dinner as well but that is not what they are designed for.
Also, more video in general is done on an iMac than is ever done on a portable. Portables, especially entry level consumer portables like a MacBook should be capable of doing video, but they are not aimed at the video production market by any means.
You seem to be someone who is maybe just too cheap to buy the right tools for the job?
>> (Originally Posted by JBridges): Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. Nonsense, of
course you can, I have done it many times! <<
Can you please explain HOW? The only way I've ever heard of to turn your MacBook into a target disk was by plugging in a FireWire cable and restarting while holding down the T key. That does not work with USB. So please tell us how you do it with USB?
Thanks.
A couple of you have indicated this:
>> (Originally Posted by JBridges): Related to that, you can't boot off a USB drive. Nonsense, of
course you can, I have done it many times! <<
Can you please explain HOW? The only way I've ever heard of to turn your MacBook into a target disk was by plugging in a FireWire cable and restarting while holding down the T key. That does not work with USB. So please tell us how you do it with USB?
Thanks.
Booting from a USB drive is different from target disk mode. The replacement for Target Disk Mode is running a version of Migration Assistant over a network.
You don't know what the fuss is about? Then obviously you are not aware of the speed difference between FW 800 and USB 2. That becomes a serious issue with external hard drives, and when using a card reader to download several hundred images as Pro photographers do every day!
Try doing a cloned backup to an external drive using USB 2, and then FW 800. If you can't see the difference, then you're blind. Same for downloading CF cards with a really fast reader like the Sandisk Extreme IV hooked up to FW 800.
No Firewire 800, means no sale for me. I was really hoping that Apple would extend FW 800 to the MacBook, I don't need the features of a MacBook Pro, as long as the Macbook has FW 800.
What? The MacBook didn't have FW 800 in the first place!
Pro photographers, more often than not, go with the laptop designed with them in mind: the MacBook Pro, which does come with FW 800.
The replacement for Target Disk Mode is running a version of Migration Assistant over a network.
Oh that's HARDLY a replacement. It lets you transfer files alright, but it doesn't let you repair the filesystem or access files directly (as far as I remember). I never used that mode for migration but always for troubleshooting and repairs.
Also, dunno if it has been found/mentioned already but
ZPower claims that an undisclosed "major manufacturer" of laptop computers will introduce its silver-zinc battery in a new line of laptops in 2009.
Source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Silver-oxide_battery
I don't want to start a flame war here but lot of what you say still makes no sense. If adding the port requires removing another one, then yes... that's a hoop that would ruin the MacBook while making it easier for some tiny portion of folks with FireWire only camcorders.
Assuming another port must be sacrificed. We don't know that for sure. That said, this is all speculation based on spy photos, this is probably not a discussion worth having based on sketchy information at best.
The idea that a sub-1000 dollar MacBook needs to be able to connect to a FireWire based camera so the user can use Final Cut Studio on it to produce what ... A TV Show? Is just over the top at best. It would be nice if they cooked dinner as well but that is not what they are designed for.
Also, more video in general is done on an iMac than is ever done on a portable. Portables, especially entry level consumer portables like a MacBook should be capable of doing video, but they are not aimed at the video production market by any means.
This is conflating two different issues that I didn't intend to happen. On one issue, I was saying that the market differentiation on the hardware is largely an artificial one, and used FCP as an example. The other, I was saying that the camcorders with both USB and Firewire ports on them that I've read about (plus the two that I have), just don't transfer video over USB.
You seem to be someone who is maybe just too cheap to buy the right tools for the job?
No. But maybe it's not the price that's in question, but the portability. Or the consumer using a device that's slightly legacy, even if it's only a year old, such as a pocket HDV camcorder. It has a USB port and a firewire port. It will not transfer video over USB, I've not found an HDV camcorder that does.
But maybe it's not the price that's in question, but the portability.
The MacBook Pro actually feels in many ways lighter than the MacBook because the MBP spreads out its 5.4 lbs. far better than the MB can spread out its 5.0 lbs.
So it really comes down to hardware footprint. But of course, the MB was never designed to serve the pro photographer niche, was it?
anything plugged into it virtually gets disconnected just by looking at it!
am i the only one here that thinks the mini dvi connector is just about the poorest engineered adapter ever?
anything plugged into it virtually gets disconnected just by looking at it!
I've been using the mini dvi connector a great deal since buying my Macbook (1st gen) when they first came out. I have to plug it in every day at work multiple times as well as at home when I want to connect to a 22" LCD. It has never once failed to connect properly, or stay connected even when jostling the machine to move it around the desk for one reason or another. Based on this experience, I feel it's a pretty well engineered adapter. It feels as secure now as the first time I used it.
sic transit gloria mundi...
As far as the mystery connector is concerned, my bet's eSATA, as well. It's conveniently located right at the hard disk. eSATA target mode, anyone? The hole could be for a strong screw that holds a hard disk carriage, too.
I think you both are off a bit.
The new MacBook lacks any Firewire, 400 or 800.
The MacBook Pro lacks FW 400, but retains FW 800.
So, while the article asserts the "phase out" of Firewire, that's obviously not the case, otherwise Apple would have likely killed off Firewire on all their laptops.
I think we'll see Firewire return to MacBooks in future revisions, but in FW 800 form instead. That really depends on what Apple plans on doing with Firewire from here on out. If they release iPods and iPhones with FW 800 cables, they'd have even faster syncing with those devices. Maybe future iterations of the Air will gain FW 800, or even replace USB2 with it. Who knows?
MiniDV adapter
powered USB hub
Firewire 400/800 adapter
External optical drive
Ethernet/USB adapter
ExpressCard eSATA
I thought Macs were about elegance and simplicity!