That will be the day that hell freezes over. Tell that to Digidesign and M-Audio, Mackie and other Pro Audio equipment manufacturers that use firewire.
Watch them transition to USB 3.
Quote:
Originally Posted by dposxfan
I guess it'll take USB3 to come close. But by then who will care about Apple by then. Because Windows 7 will be out too. I bet Steve Ballmer is having a good laugh at what's going on.
Apple will support USB 3 before Microsoft and Windows 7 will be just as mediocre as Windows 1 through Vista. By that time, Apple will have a larger market cap than Microsoft. Currently, Apple's market cap is $90B and Microsoft's is $220B.
I did say here twice, and in another forum the other day, that I'm disappointed they removed it now.
Here we agree.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
But within a year, all things will change. I'm hoping that Apple will jump upon the new interfaces as soon as possible, as they have with Display Port (just as prices for the chips have come down).
Do you see anything else possible in the tightly integrated and short in available space MB than a faster FW or USB3? I do not. I think USB3 is a no brainer now and Apple most certainly will do it, but the benefits over the fast FW versions are yet to be seen.
OK, After reading more reply. i understand. But the question still remain, why not a Macbook Pro?
And as much as you all hate to admit..... Firewire is pretty much dead. I think apple now have to admit they lost the battle. It is now only used in Professional or Higher priced Products.
And most new Mac user ( coming from PC ) wont miss Firewire Port at all.
That's amazing. I guess no Apple machine before FW, was repairable either.
The first B/W's and everything that came before.
Talk about being blind.
He was probably high on testosterone when he replied, but the point is valid: is not about being able to do repairs or not (since we very well know that you can), but about ease and convenience of doing so.
Is it not possible to transfer data from a camcorder to a dual-interfaced USB/FireWire disk? I mean, do the camcorders always act as slaves, or can they also be masters and transfer to an external peripheral?
As for the extra USB port, the same question returns: where to put it?
Camcorders (conventional tape based ones) can only playback data to the Firewire/iLink/DV or video and audio outputs (composite or - the better ones - component plus audio). It is playback, not data transfer. That's it. Some/most models might support devices like the Firestore (an external HD that can capture video from an Firewire input and convert it to a target format like Quicktime on the fly), but these devices are extremely expensive (for consumer standards), more expensive than most camcorders. So, yes, people with tape-based Firewire camcorders can either get a new camcorder or a different laptop. No alternatives.
Wow. 250+ replies and I haven't gotten a word in yet. I'm glad it's not just me.
It's clear that everyone involved in the new MB launch is feeling the heat over the removal of Firewire.
Jobs doesn't answer emails like that every day.
And in typical Jobs fashion, it's more important to look at what he doesn't say.
He doesn't answer anyone with a more thorough complaint, addressing the fact that hard drive speeds are now a huge factor in the MacOS experience because his Time Machine is the biggest feature in Leopard.
He doesn't talk at all about TDM. Doesn't mention that Audio and Video experiences will be diminished using this "state of the art" laptop.
MacBook sales will still be respectable, because many people were anticipating this upgrade and will rush out to buy a month into the school year. But the hard fact is that Apple has completely blown the introduction of its Unibody process by allowing its introduction to be usurped by a rage of complaints over the exclusion of Firewire.
Don't believe me? This thread is on page 7 already. The much-older thread on the manufacturing process is only at two pages.
And that situation is being replayed all over the Net.
PC advocates, rather than acknowledging the Mac's lead in design, are emboldened by the fact that the conversation is now about how few features you get on a Mac laptop. And that conversation is being led by the Mac partisans, not the PC ones.
It is hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but Apple has done it again.
Why not drop the Ethernet port and replace it with FireWire 400? Apple already sells a USB to Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air's. This would have been the best solution for everyone...
That's very clever! I actually don't remember when I used the Ethernet port on my notebook the last time... It must have been in May when I was backing up some 40GB towards an internal server. Ethernet adapter through USB is a solution whenever you need the raw Ethernet speed.
---
I don't think the decision to drop the port was so hard after all:
1. Production cost is lower.
2. Apple's investigations SURELY show that consumers don't use FireWire at all.
3. If Apple manage to move Prosumers and poor musicians up to MacBook Pro, they probably earn more money.
I still think they should offer a top line Macbook with Firewire. It's ridiculous not to, goddamnit!
I heard this argument with the first MacBook Pro in 2006. "There's no room for another port!". Guess what? The next version had it. They MADE room. Are you seriously saying that Sony can find room for a firewire controller and everything else this computer has on the TINY 11", 2lb VAIO TT (complete with Bluray burner), but Apple can't? Spare me.
Sony designs its own ASICs. They might have integrated it with other functions. Apple, as far as I know, does not, at least not for these models, but they may in the future. Then, how thick is the Vaio TT?
I don't know what the big deal is. The MacBook is obviously an entry level system designed for students, average consumers that don't need tons of horsepower or don't have the $$$ for a Pro-level computer. Firewire is usually meant for Pro level hardware.
Then why until three days ago every Mac had it? Why the Mini still has it?
How is dead when from the whole range of Mac computers only the new MBs don't have it? Or do you believe that Apple will remove it from the MBP for example the moment when much faster versions of it will be available?
No, for me it is clear that FW became the new consumer vs. pro differentiator. I believe that once FW 3200 is ready Apple will include it and will market it as a high end pro feature. With or without USB3.
He doesn't answer anyone with a more thorough complaint, addressing the fact that hard drive speeds are now a huge factor in the MacOS experience because his Time Machine is the biggest feature in Leopard.
Well, to be honest, I do not think that the combination of backup and speed is a known concept in Cupertino at all. Breath out and whisper "Time Capsule"...
* Dimensions (Approx.) : 10.99"(W) x 0.93"(H) x 7.87"(D)6,7
* Weight (Approx.) : 2.87 lbs.7
The answer is very simple: they use a very-low power CPU. Low power = much less space devoted to power supply = space freed for peripherals. Don't look elsewhere.
That's very clever! I actually don't remember when I used the Ethernet port on my notebook the last time... It must have been in May when I was backing up some 40GB towards an internal server. Ethernet adapter through USB is a solution whenever you need the raw Ethernet speed.
I have never used the Ethernet port in the last five years. But I would not like to see it go. Not yet at least. It is a very fundamental feature.
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas
---
I don't think the decision to drop the port was so hard after all:
1. Production cost is lower.
2. Apple's investigations SURELY show that consumers don't use FireWire at all.
3. If Apple manage to move Prosumers and poor musicians up to MacBook Pro, they probably earn more money.
It must be so. Apple sure conducted some research before taking the decision and guess what, the results turned in their favor, that is no need of FW for the vast majority of users. So let's remove it but let's raise also the price since the new manufacturing process is more costly. Fat margin machines? Probably.
Quote:
Originally Posted by palegolas
I still think they should offer a top line Macbook with Firewire. It's ridiculous not to, goddamnit!
Yes, this is my feeling too. Guess we are out of luck for now. For me, and since the new design is going to last for years (meaning no more space for more ports), ideally Apple could transition in the future one port to USB3 and the other one to a newer FW version. In the high end at least, since Apple seems to have deemed FW as a pro feature. Having 1 USB + 1 FW is more convenient than no FW at all.
What a fuss about nothing. Give it 4 months and all this bollocks will be forgotten.
Remember the move from PPC to Intel? I wonder how many of those moaners and doomsayers are here on this forum today? Plenty is my guess.
Remember the iMovie 08? What outrage there was. Again, my guess is there are lots of "video producers" here today who were on their high horses then.
Apple leads, and you can follow if you want. Go back to cruddy cheapo Windows laptops if you want and leave the rest of us to get on with it.
OR, if you ARE serious about video and Firewire, buy a bleeding PRO Macbook...!!
And to all those mindless posters who blame Steve, just remember that there are a lot of intelligent people at Apple and a lot of intelligent people that feed into that organisation. So my advice is stop making things personal. That said, I'm sure Steve can take it.
At the very least, why didn't they put on an extra USB port?
No, they should have one USB and one FW port if the goal was two ports maximum. You can always expand your USB port but you can do nothing if there is no FW at all. See also my point above.
Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.
No you don't.
I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.
You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.
But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...
Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.
But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...
Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.
I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.
Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.
But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...
Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.
But Steve, those options are another grand and...
Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?
Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?
To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.
Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?
Why not drop the Ethernet port and replace it with FireWire 400? Apple already sells a USB to Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air's. This would have been the best solution for everyone...
Please tell me you're joking. I work i an apple center, here about 50% of users need ethernet even on a notebok and like 99% of users doesn't even know what firewire is.
OR, if you ARE serious about video and Firewire, buy a bleeding PRO Macbook...!!
Although I can accept that Apple has valid reasons to drop FW, based on some research I suppose, I am really tired to see this argument. How the FW suddenly became a pro feature when it was universal? Are we moving to the future or to the past? My watch says future...
Comments
That will be the day that hell freezes over. Tell that to Digidesign and M-Audio, Mackie and other Pro Audio equipment manufacturers that use firewire.
Watch them transition to USB 3.
I guess it'll take USB3 to come close. But by then who will care about Apple by then. Because Windows 7 will be out too. I bet Steve Ballmer is having a good laugh at what's going on.
Apple will support USB 3 before Microsoft and Windows 7 will be just as mediocre as Windows 1 through Vista. By that time, Apple will have a larger market cap than Microsoft. Currently, Apple's market cap is $90B and Microsoft's is $220B.
I did say here twice, and in another forum the other day, that I'm disappointed they removed it now.
Here we agree.
But within a year, all things will change. I'm hoping that Apple will jump upon the new interfaces as soon as possible, as they have with Display Port (just as prices for the chips have come down).
Do you see anything else possible in the tightly integrated and short in available space MB than a faster FW or USB3? I do not. I think USB3 is a no brainer now and Apple most certainly will do it, but the benefits over the fast FW versions are yet to be seen.
And as much as you all hate to admit..... Firewire is pretty much dead. I think apple now have to admit they lost the battle. It is now only used in Professional or Higher priced Products.
And most new Mac user ( coming from PC ) wont miss Firewire Port at all.
That's amazing. I guess no Apple machine before FW, was repairable either.
The first B/W's and everything that came before.
Talk about being blind.
He was probably high on testosterone when he replied,
Is it not possible to transfer data from a camcorder to a dual-interfaced USB/FireWire disk? I mean, do the camcorders always act as slaves, or can they also be masters and transfer to an external peripheral?
As for the extra USB port, the same question returns: where to put it?
Camcorders (conventional tape based ones) can only playback data to the Firewire/iLink/DV or video and audio outputs (composite or - the better ones - component plus audio). It is playback, not data transfer. That's it. Some/most models might support devices like the Firestore (an external HD that can capture video from an Firewire input and convert it to a target format like Quicktime on the fly), but these devices are extremely expensive (for consumer standards), more expensive than most camcorders. So, yes, people with tape-based Firewire camcorders can either get a new camcorder or a different laptop. No alternatives.
It's clear that everyone involved in the new MB launch is feeling the heat over the removal of Firewire.
Jobs doesn't answer emails like that every day.
And in typical Jobs fashion, it's more important to look at what he doesn't say.
He doesn't answer anyone with a more thorough complaint, addressing the fact that hard drive speeds are now a huge factor in the MacOS experience because his Time Machine is the biggest feature in Leopard.
He doesn't talk at all about TDM. Doesn't mention that Audio and Video experiences will be diminished using this "state of the art" laptop.
MacBook sales will still be respectable, because many people were anticipating this upgrade and will rush out to buy a month into the school year. But the hard fact is that Apple has completely blown the introduction of its Unibody process by allowing its introduction to be usurped by a rage of complaints over the exclusion of Firewire.
Don't believe me? This thread is on page 7 already. The much-older thread on the manufacturing process is only at two pages.
And that situation is being replayed all over the Net.
PC advocates, rather than acknowledging the Mac's lead in design, are emboldened by the fact that the conversation is now about how few features you get on a Mac laptop. And that conversation is being led by the Mac partisans, not the PC ones.
It is hard to snatch defeat from the jaws of victory, but Apple has done it again.
Why not drop the Ethernet port and replace it with FireWire 400? Apple already sells a USB to Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air's. This would have been the best solution for everyone...
That's very clever! I actually don't remember when I used the Ethernet port on my notebook the last time... It must have been in May when I was backing up some 40GB towards an internal server. Ethernet adapter through USB is a solution whenever you need the raw Ethernet speed.
---
I don't think the decision to drop the port was so hard after all:
1. Production cost is lower.
2. Apple's investigations SURELY show that consumers don't use FireWire at all.
3. If Apple manage to move Prosumers and poor musicians up to MacBook Pro, they probably earn more money.
I still think they should offer a top line Macbook with Firewire. It's ridiculous not to, goddamnit!
it goes like this:
No, until a few days ago every Mac had FW. Then suddenly Apple baptises FW a Pro feature...
I heard this argument with the first MacBook Pro in 2006. "There's no room for another port!". Guess what? The next version had it. They MADE room. Are you seriously saying that Sony can find room for a firewire controller and everything else this computer has on the TINY 11", 2lb VAIO TT (complete with Bluray burner), but Apple can't? Spare me.
Sony designs its own ASICs. They might have integrated it with other functions. Apple, as far as I know, does not, at least not for these models, but they may in the future. Then, how thick is the Vaio TT?
I don't know what the big deal is. The MacBook is obviously an entry level system designed for students, average consumers that don't need tons of horsepower or don't have the $$$ for a Pro-level computer. Firewire is usually meant for Pro level hardware.
Then why until three days ago every Mac had it? Why the Mini still has it?
Geez, what a bunch of whiners. Firewire is dead.
How is dead when from the whole range of Mac computers only the new MBs don't have it? Or do you believe that Apple will remove it from the MBP for example the moment when much faster versions of it will be available?
No, for me it is clear that FW became the new consumer vs. pro differentiator. I believe that once FW 3200 is ready Apple will include it and will market it as a high end pro feature. With or without USB3.
He doesn't answer anyone with a more thorough complaint, addressing the fact that hard drive speeds are now a huge factor in the MacOS experience because his Time Machine is the biggest feature in Leopard.
Well, to be honest, I do not think that the combination of backup and speed is a known concept in Cupertino at all. Breath out and whisper "Time Capsule"...
Then, how thick is the Vaio TT?
VAIO TT Weights and Measurements
* Dimensions (Approx.) : 10.99"(W) x 0.93"(H) x 7.87"(D)6,7
* Weight (Approx.) : 2.87 lbs.7
VAIO TT Weights and Measurements
* Dimensions (Approx.) : 10.99"(W) x 0.93"(H) x 7.87"(D)6,7
* Weight (Approx.) : 2.87 lbs.7
The answer is very simple: they use a very-low power CPU. Low power = much less space devoted to power supply = space freed for peripherals. Don't look elsewhere.
That's very clever! I actually don't remember when I used the Ethernet port on my notebook the last time... It must have been in May when I was backing up some 40GB towards an internal server. Ethernet adapter through USB is a solution whenever you need the raw Ethernet speed.
I have never used the Ethernet port in the last five years. But I would not like to see it go. Not yet at least. It is a very fundamental feature.
---
I don't think the decision to drop the port was so hard after all:
1. Production cost is lower.
2. Apple's investigations SURELY show that consumers don't use FireWire at all.
3. If Apple manage to move Prosumers and poor musicians up to MacBook Pro, they probably earn more money.
It must be so. Apple sure conducted some research before taking the decision and guess what, the results turned in their favor, that is no need of FW for the vast majority of users. So let's remove it but let's raise also the price since the new manufacturing process is more costly. Fat margin machines? Probably.
I still think they should offer a top line Macbook with Firewire. It's ridiculous not to, goddamnit!
Yes, this is my feeling too. Guess we are out of luck for now. For me, and since the new design is going to last for years (meaning no more space for more ports), ideally Apple could transition in the future one port to USB3 and the other one to a newer FW version. In the high end at least, since Apple seems to have deemed FW as a pro feature. Having 1 USB + 1 FW is more convenient than no FW at all.
Remember the move from PPC to Intel? I wonder how many of those moaners and doomsayers are here on this forum today? Plenty is my guess.
Remember the iMovie 08? What outrage there was. Again, my guess is there are lots of "video producers" here today who were on their high horses then.
Apple leads, and you can follow if you want. Go back to cruddy cheapo Windows laptops if you want and leave the rest of us to get on with it.
OR, if you ARE serious about video and Firewire, buy a bleeding PRO Macbook...!!
And to all those mindless posters who blame Steve, just remember that there are a lot of intelligent people at Apple and a lot of intelligent people that feed into that organisation. So my advice is stop making things personal. That said, I'm sure Steve can take it.
At the very least, why didn't they put on an extra USB port?
No, they should have one USB and one FW port if the goal was two ports maximum. You can always expand your USB port but you can do nothing if there is no FW at all. See also my point above.
Hi Connor, what can I do for you?
Well, I was thinking of getting one of your new laptops, the MacBook 13", but it doesn't have a firewire port, and I kinda need one.
No you don't.
I do Steve, I have an iPod that's firewire only, my external hard drive is firewire, sure it has USB 2 also but if I use that I have to find a power outlet and use a clunky power brick and it's noticeably slower. I also have a 35mm film scanner that's firewire only.
You still have a firewire iPod? - Hahahahaha! Buy a new one, simple.
But it still works fine, I don't really see the need...
Listen Conner, do you have any idea what it costs to run a Gulfstream? Do you have any idea how much fuel that thing uses - hmmm? One load of fuel is more than your car uses in four years. Trust me, you need a new iPod.
But what about the film scanner, they're not cheap...
Film scanner? You're kidding me, right? No one still uses film.
I do. I like film, its self archiving, independent of power sources, and I have thousands invested in lenses.
Connor, do yourself a favour, trust me, get yourself a Canon 5D Mk II - I did.
But Steve, they cost over two grand! To replace my lenses would cost me another 15...
Connor, that's YOUR problem. Look, you're obviously a cheapskate, so just get yourself a USB film scanner, or better yet, just get the Pro.
But Steve, those options are another grand and...
Connor, The Gulfstream needs a new set of rubber - capiche?
Steve, but why couldn't you have just put a firewire port on it?
To save YOU money Connor. You whine and moan about replacing your hardware, but we were only thinking of you as a consumer. I'm truly disappointed that you don't appreciate our efforts on YOUR behalf.
Well, gee, sorry Steve, I guess maybe I was being a bit selfish and I didn't fully realise.......Say Steve, how much did it save?
Two dollars.
.
.
.
.
Connor, you still there?
Why not drop the Ethernet port and replace it with FireWire 400? Apple already sells a USB to Ethernet adapter for the MacBook Air's. This would have been the best solution for everyone...
Please tell me you're joking. I work i an apple center, here about 50% of users need ethernet even on a notebok and like 99% of users doesn't even know what firewire is.
OR, if you ARE serious about video and Firewire, buy a bleeding PRO Macbook...!!
Although I can accept that Apple has valid reasons to drop FW, based on some research I suppose, I am really tired to see this argument. How the FW suddenly became a pro feature when it was universal? Are we moving to the future or to the past? My watch says future...