OK, I've been a Firewire proponent and have stated in this thread that it was a mistake on Apple's part to eliminate it from the new MacBooks. So I find myself shopping at our local Target store last night and I happen to look at the consumer video cameras. I'm not sure I checked every one but of the roughly half-dozen I glanced at, all had USB connections and not one had a Firewire connection.
OK, I've been a Firewire proponent and have stated in this thread that it was a mistake on Apple's part to eliminate it from the new MacBooks. So I find myself shopping at our local Target store last night and I happen to look at the consumer video cameras. I'm not sure I checked every one but of the roughly half-dozen I glanced at, all had USB connections and not one had a Firewire connection.
I just went through their site, which offers more than the stores. They don't list any Firewire or IEEE 1394 in their specifications, but they don't list much of anything, so I cross referenced a several of the higher-end drives with Newegg to see if any have FW. None did.
Even looking on Amazon, the number of newer consumer-grade camcorders with Firewire are few and far between. I know it sucks to have the market change before we're ready, but I think Apple called this one correctly. I see only 2 out of the top 25 that have IEEE 1394 and they also have USB2.0.
You think that Apple 'called this one correctly'?.
Aww, come on people. This is getting pretty ridiculous!
OK, FW400 is nigh dead, so... FFS replace it with FW800 on the MacBook! Simple!
And yes, I've visited my local PCWORLD and have checked out as many PCs as I could possibly have and... guess what... most of them, and I mean MOST OF THEM have FireWire ports included. From the cheapo models up! It's not a big deal. Don't have me go round listing model numbers because what I have seen is plain and simple. FireWire is still very much a popular and defacto standard for most PCs. An observation.
There are many on here who will support Apple to the death, perhaps blindly, Excuses excuses... but anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that this was a poor and badly timed decision - to remove FireWire from the MacBook was not a good idea at this particular economic point in time. I'm not talking FW400, I'm talking any flavour of FireWire.
Up-selling in its rawest form. Plain and simple.
Why not give us FW800 on the MacBook?
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Will they?
Are you kidding? We've heard nothing but complaints about the removal of FW400 from the MB and MBPs, despite the long list of evidence that it was coming.
As for FW400 being removed to up-sell to a MBP, that is the the worst argument I've heard on these forums. FW is just not as ubiquitous as the consumers that use it think it is so the argument falls flat. With 50% of Mac purchases being from switchers and most people buying the MacBook it doesn't make sense that FW is Apple's driving force to upsell to the MBP when they have...
...made it a unibody aluminum enclosure that matches the MBP in scale and look when they could have gone for a cheaper plastic option.
...added a much faster Nvidia integrated GPU when they could have gone with the cheaper, more weathered Intel solution.
...not included the ability to run a 30"+ monitor.
...not added features like LED backlit display and backlit keyboard
Every single one of those is more of a draw to the average consumer than the inclusion of FW, so I can't see how anyone can honestly think that Apple did what they did with the sole intent to up-sell. As for "defacto [sic] standard" it is an IEEE standard, but so are many other obsolesced or obsolescing IEEE standards.
As for PC World, are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
Are you really arguing that because they offered something at one time they should always offer it in the future? The entire history of computing is a constant emergence and obsolescing of tech.
It looks like I'll have to repeat what I said a few pages back. Nothing has made Firewire obsolete as a technology.
None of us know for sure why Apple left it off the MacBook as they are keeping mum on the whole subject. That's not exactly a nice way of going about your business. Third parties are investing time and money in products using an Apple developed technology precisely because Apple has pushed it and they thought they could count on a park of FW ports. Apple offers a platform that third parties build on.
Many of those products are also tied to the Mac OS. I know for a fact that one developer wrote to the FW list saying he was surprised that Apple left FW off the MacBook and that the move had put some of his products in 'jeopardy'. It seems clear that Apple gave no early warning to developers about this move.
Of course that might be because Firewire is alive and well at Apple, just not on the new unibody MacBook (although I very much doubt it).
IMO the attitude at Apple is that 'we pull the shots and users/developers have to like or lump it'. One can safely say that the decision to remove FW from the MacBook has backfired from a PR perspective. And this issue is simmering all over the net, it's not just the English speaking sites. It has made a lot of people angry. Increasing prices has also rasied eyebrows.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
Apple tried with the 12". It was very popular, but only for a small group of people. That's why Apple discontinued it.
I suppose that's your way of admitting that Apple got it's market research wrong when they designed that machine. Just as they did with the Cube, the flower power and dalmation iMacs etc.
I wonder if the current MacBook unibody will end up being another one to add to that list?
The better selling ones do. In fact, the Macbook might be the only notebook over $1000 without firewire.
Quote:
Originally Posted by melgross
Really? You know that for sure? You've checked to see that all the laptops above $,1000 have FW?
If you were replying to the second sentence in that quote, your reply was disingenuous. He made it clear that he wasn't stating any kind of absolute fact by including the word might. It was a general off the cuff statement. A personal opinion.
I just went through their site, which offers more than the stores. They don't list any Firewire or IEEE 1394 in their specifications, but they don't list much of anything, so I cross referenced a several of the higher-end drives with Newegg to see if any have FW. None did.
Even looking on Amazon, the number of newer consumer-grade camcorders with Firewire are few and far between. I know it sucks to have the market change before we're ready, but I think Apple called this one correctly. I see only 2 out of the top 25 that have IEEE 1394 and they also have USB2.0.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations.
From everything I've heard, the new MacBook is selling like hotcakes. There was plenty of pent up demand from people who were waiting far into the education cycle and from PC switchers.
I have no doubt that Apple will announce at MWSF that the new machines are a hit. Where they have lost is in sales to their core users, and a serious distraction from the uniqueness of the MacBook's architecture (focusing on what's lost instead of what's new.)
They've also virtually killed any real street cred they had for Mac-only tech. After the dismal failure of the ADC connector a few years back and now possibly Firewire, Apple is demonstrating that they are wizards at software, but don't have the stomach to really push hardware standards of their own.
Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.
Well said. Likewise, they lost a sale to me for the same reason. If I have to upgrade anything, it's my peripherals (since all of them, three video cameras, a FW hub, and several FW audio interfaces). So, instead of a new MacBook, I bought a used MacBook from eBay (with FW, mind you), and perhaps a new JVC HD camera WITH FIREWIRE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7
I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
I suppose that's your way of admitting that Apple got it's market research wrong when they designed that machine. Just as they did with the Cube, the flower power and dalmation iMacs etc.
I wonder if the current MacBook unibody will end up being another one to add to that list?
What does "my way of admitting" mean?
According to Jobs, they don't do market research, or at least not too much.
It doesn't matter where the error was, what matters is that they tried a small machine, but it didn't sell well, so they discontinued it.
The flower power and dalmation color schemes were like Dell offering their models in many colors. Apple had run out if ideas for the old iMacs, and until their new models came out, which were possibly delayed, they offered these rather odd "updates".
The Cube was a great idea, but Apple made it a high end machine with the G4, which was expensive back then. Most people agree that if Apple had come out with a G3 version for less, it would have sold better. Apple's marketing was also piss poor. They failed to get across the point that the machine was very upgradable despite its size. People though it wasn't. That didn't help.
If you were replying to the second sentence in that quote, your reply was disingenuous. He made it clear that he wasn't stating any kind of absolute fact by including the word might. It was a general off the cuff statement. A personal opinion.
Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.
Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.
There's a big difference. Sony also produces memory. Not very big player, but a player. Sony also has hundreds of devices that can use memory sticks, Apple has few. Sony makes a good deal of money selling memory sticks, and licenses to other makers. As Sony has large portions of some markets, they can force consumers to buy their memory sticks. Apple has no comparable marketshare in computers.
Apple was not able to force others to pay them much for FW, or to use it.
Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.
Mel this doesn't seem to be a response worthy of a 'global moderator' \
most people choose their words careful and actually mean them
if "might" means "all" to you then you obviously read the forums in a different way to most
(and please don't resort to a 'you're new here' response)
on this thread we're all just trying to get to the bottom of why apple removed firewire
for which no one has been able to give (or get) a definitive answer - but many have good ideas
some don't give a hoot about firewire (ok that's fine for them)
some simply want to justify their recent alu MB purchase
some just don't like hearing that apple may have made a poor decision
some think that there's no current alternative to FW (and don't want to see it go)
& other's are more impacted and therefore more passionate about it
from my perspective it's all good - it's been a very informative and on the whole
Are you kidding? We've heard nothing but complaints about the removal of FW400 from the MB and MBPs, despite the long list of evidence that it was coming.... ..... are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
You say it yourself, a long list of complaints about the removal of FW (not just 400 but altogether) from the MacBook. No one has mentioned the removal of 400 from the Pro simply because it was replaced with 800 on this model. Do you not think that this in itself is symptomatic of a possible error on Apple's behalf? One only needs to look at the popularity of this thread and others like it on other boards to see what an emotive subject it has turned out to be.
Have you recently been to PCWorld? One only has to turn the machine(s) around or look a little closer to see the FireWire / iLink socket even though little or no mention of it is given on the sales blurb (either in-store or on-line).
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Will they?
Except I said this several pages ago and many of the pro-MB folks agree.
The point isn't that losing FW is some huge plus but that new MB is so much better than the old one regardless. Enough so that the MBP is going to see reduced sales anyway even with the new MB lacking FW.
Some audio pros got hurt but a whole lot of other folks got a MB that can easily replace the MBPs they own. With the exception of firewire (and the expresscard slot) the current MB is better then my 2006 MBP with a X1600 GPU.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
Yes, lets wait and see. But I doubt that the MB isn't meeting expectations for two reasons:
1) XMas isn't here yet. It's hard to "not meet expecations" for a quarter that essentially hasn't happened yet. We haven't even had Black Friday yet.
2) While XMas is the important sales quarter, back to school is the other important quarter for the new MB and that hasn't happened yet either.
So to find out the new MB really is doing will require you to wait until the results are known for Q1 and Q4 2009.
Comments
Because of the lack of FW on the MB? Please. The MB now sucks for some pros but is now awesome for others. 30" ACD and a GPU that doesn't suck.
But hey, for you it's all half empty isn't it? Because all those pros don't count right?
Yep, the new macs and all of Apple's success is a mere fad and not actual good execution because you don't have an xMac.
Here is a "Pro" that has a MacBook precisely because I have a Mac Pro for anything that needs firewire.
I *adore* FW, but frankly, anything I have that's FW usually needs my desktop's TB of HDs and multiple CPUs to be useful.
OK, I've been a Firewire proponent and have stated in this thread that it was a mistake on Apple's part to eliminate it from the new MacBooks. So I find myself shopping at our local Target store last night and I happen to look at the consumer video cameras. I'm not sure I checked every one but of the roughly half-dozen I glanced at, all had USB connections and not one had a Firewire connection.
I just went through their site, which offers more than the stores. They don't list any Firewire or IEEE 1394 in their specifications, but they don't list much of anything, so I cross referenced a several of the higher-end drives with Newegg to see if any have FW. None did.
Even looking on Amazon, the number of newer consumer-grade camcorders with Firewire are few and far between. I know it sucks to have the market change before we're ready, but I think Apple called this one correctly. I see only 2 out of the top 25 that have IEEE 1394 and they also have USB2.0.
Aww, come on people. This is getting pretty ridiculous!
OK, FW400 is nigh dead, so... FFS replace it with FW800 on the MacBook! Simple!
And yes, I've visited my local PCWORLD and have checked out as many PCs as I could possibly have and... guess what... most of them, and I mean MOST OF THEM have FireWire ports included. From the cheapo models up! It's not a big deal. Don't have me go round listing model numbers because what I have seen is plain and simple. FireWire is still very much a popular and defacto standard for most PCs. An observation.
There are many on here who will support Apple to the death, perhaps blindly, Excuses excuses... but anyone with an ounce of common sense could see that this was a poor and badly timed decision - to remove FireWire from the MacBook was not a good idea at this particular economic point in time. I'm not talking FW400, I'm talking any flavour of FireWire.
Up-selling in its rawest form. Plain and simple.
Why not give us FW800 on the MacBook?
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Will they?
Up-selling in its rawest form. Plain and simple.
Why not give us FW800 on the MacBook?
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Will they?
Are you kidding? We've heard nothing but complaints about the removal of FW400 from the MB and MBPs, despite the long list of evidence that it was coming.
As for FW400 being removed to up-sell to a MBP, that is the the worst argument I've heard on these forums. FW is just not as ubiquitous as the consumers that use it think it is so the argument falls flat. With 50% of Mac purchases being from switchers and most people buying the MacBook it doesn't make sense that FW is Apple's driving force to upsell to the MBP when they have...Every single one of those is more of a draw to the average consumer than the inclusion of FW, so I can't see how anyone can honestly think that Apple did what they did with the sole intent to up-sell. As for "defacto [sic] standard" it is an IEEE standard, but so are many other obsolesced or obsolescing IEEE standards.
As for PC World, are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
Are you really arguing that because they offered something at one time they should always offer it in the future? The entire history of computing is a constant emergence and obsolescing of tech.
It looks like I'll have to repeat what I said a few pages back. Nothing has made Firewire obsolete as a technology.
None of us know for sure why Apple left it off the MacBook as they are keeping mum on the whole subject. That's not exactly a nice way of going about your business. Third parties are investing time and money in products using an Apple developed technology precisely because Apple has pushed it and they thought they could count on a park of FW ports. Apple offers a platform that third parties build on.
Many of those products are also tied to the Mac OS. I know for a fact that one developer wrote to the FW list saying he was surprised that Apple left FW off the MacBook and that the move had put some of his products in 'jeopardy'. It seems clear that Apple gave no early warning to developers about this move.
Of course that might be because Firewire is alive and well at Apple, just not on the new unibody MacBook (although I very much doubt it).
IMO the attitude at Apple is that 'we pull the shots and users/developers have to like or lump it'. One can safely say that the decision to remove FW from the MacBook has backfired from a PR perspective. And this issue is simmering all over the net, it's not just the English speaking sites. It has made a lot of people angry. Increasing prices has also rasied eyebrows.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
Apple tried with the 12". It was very popular, but only for a small group of people. That's why Apple discontinued it.
I suppose that's your way of admitting that Apple got it's market research wrong when they designed that machine. Just as they did with the Cube, the flower power and dalmation iMacs etc.
I wonder if the current MacBook unibody will end up being another one to add to that list?
The better selling ones do. In fact, the Macbook might be the only notebook over $1000 without firewire.
Really? You know that for sure? You've checked to see that all the laptops above $,1000 have FW?
If you were replying to the second sentence in that quote, your reply was disingenuous. He made it clear that he wasn't stating any kind of absolute fact by including the word might. It was a general off the cuff statement. A personal opinion.
I just went through their site, which offers more than the stores. They don't list any Firewire or IEEE 1394 in their specifications, but they don't list much of anything, so I cross referenced a several of the higher-end drives with Newegg to see if any have FW. None did.
Even looking on Amazon, the number of newer consumer-grade camcorders with Firewire are few and far between. I know it sucks to have the market change before we're ready, but I think Apple called this one correctly. I see only 2 out of the top 25 that have IEEE 1394 and they also have USB2.0.
As much as i like FW, I agree.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations.
From everything I've heard, the new MacBook is selling like hotcakes. There was plenty of pent up demand from people who were waiting far into the education cycle and from PC switchers.
I have no doubt that Apple will announce at MWSF that the new machines are a hit. Where they have lost is in sales to their core users, and a serious distraction from the uniqueness of the MacBook's architecture (focusing on what's lost instead of what's new.)
They've also virtually killed any real street cred they had for Mac-only tech. After the dismal failure of the ADC connector a few years back and now possibly Firewire, Apple is demonstrating that they are wizards at software, but don't have the stomach to really push hardware standards of their own.
Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.
I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
I suppose that's your way of admitting that Apple got it's market research wrong when they designed that machine. Just as they did with the Cube, the flower power and dalmation iMacs etc.
I wonder if the current MacBook unibody will end up being another one to add to that list?
What does "my way of admitting" mean?
According to Jobs, they don't do market research, or at least not too much.
It doesn't matter where the error was, what matters is that they tried a small machine, but it didn't sell well, so they discontinued it.
The flower power and dalmation color schemes were like Dell offering their models in many colors. Apple had run out if ideas for the old iMacs, and until their new models came out, which were possibly delayed, they offered these rather odd "updates".
The Cube was a great idea, but Apple made it a high end machine with the G4, which was expensive back then. Most people agree that if Apple had come out with a G3 version for less, it would have sold better. Apple's marketing was also piss poor. They failed to get across the point that the machine was very upgradable despite its size. People though it wasn't. That didn't help.
If you were replying to the second sentence in that quote, your reply was disingenuous. He made it clear that he wasn't stating any kind of absolute fact by including the word might. It was a general off the cuff statement. A personal opinion.
Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.
Look at how defiantly Sony has promoted Memory Stick. Apple ditched their own interface on the iPod and has now purposely sidelined it in favour of an outside technology that won't even be out in the market for a year.
There's a big difference. Sony also produces memory. Not very big player, but a player. Sony also has hundreds of devices that can use memory sticks, Apple has few. Sony makes a good deal of money selling memory sticks, and licenses to other makers. As Sony has large portions of some markets, they can force consumers to buy their memory sticks. Apple has no comparable marketshare in computers.
Apple was not able to force others to pay them much for FW, or to use it.
You can't compare that.
As much as i like FW, I agree.
is there a substitute for target disk mode, so when i get a new macbook how do i do the data transfer?? use ethernet??? it was so simple with FW
As for PC World, are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
there are plenty of FW equipped items on pcworld.co.uk
just type the word "firewire" into the search function on the top right
and sort by price descending
there are FW equipped laptops as low as £399 like this one
you'll have to scroll down and click on "full product information..." to see the connection details
they only list the main features in the blurb
Oh please! Speak for yourself. He's a big boy. We all use the word "might" when we really want to simply say "all" but want an out in case we're wrong. Don't pretend you don't do it also.
Mel this doesn't seem to be a response worthy of a 'global moderator'
most people choose their words careful and actually mean them
if "might" means "all" to you then you obviously read the forums in a different way to most
(and please don't resort to a 'you're new here' response)
on this thread we're all just trying to get to the bottom of why apple removed firewire
for which no one has been able to give (or get) a definitive answer - but many have good ideas
some don't give a hoot about firewire (ok that's fine for them)
some simply want to justify their recent alu MB purchase
some just don't like hearing that apple may have made a poor decision
some think that there's no current alternative to FW (and don't want to see it go)
& other's are more impacted and therefore more passionate about it
from my perspective it's all good - it's been a very informative and on the whole
an intelligent thread
PS i choose my italics carefully too
Are you kidding? We've heard nothing but complaints about the removal of FW400 from the MB and MBPs, despite the long list of evidence that it was coming.... ..... are you sure they weren't clearance items, because I'm not seeing much of anything with IEEE 1394, FireWrie or i.link on their site.
You say it yourself, a long list of complaints about the removal of FW (not just 400 but altogether) from the MacBook. No one has mentioned the removal of 400 from the Pro simply because it was replaced with 800 on this model. Do you not think that this in itself is symptomatic of a possible error on Apple's behalf? One only needs to look at the popularity of this thread and others like it on other boards to see what an emotive subject it has turned out to be.
Have you recently been to PCWorld? One only has to turn the machine(s) around or look a little closer to see the FireWire / iLink socket even though little or no mention of it is given on the sales blurb (either in-store or on-line).
Up-selling in its rawest form. Plain and simple.
Why not give us FW800 on the MacBook?
Maybe because that would eat into Pro sales. There is your answer.
Then again, some people will just not allow this type of heresy to be spake.
Will they?
Except I said this several pages ago and many of the pro-MB folks agree.
The point isn't that losing FW is some huge plus but that new MB is so much better than the old one regardless. Enough so that the MBP is going to see reduced sales anyway even with the new MB lacking FW.
Some audio pros got hurt but a whole lot of other folks got a MB that can easily replace the MBPs they own. With the exception of firewire (and the expresscard slot) the current MB is better then my 2006 MBP with a X1600 GPU.
The MacBook unibody was unveiled a little over a month ago. Let's see how things progress it's early days yet. I have a hunch that sales are not meeting expectations. They lost a sale to me because of this (the MacBook I planned on buying is now a Lumix G1 camera) so let's just see if I'm the only one reacting this way or if droves of users are voting with their wallets.
Yes, lets wait and see. But I doubt that the MB isn't meeting expectations for two reasons:
1) XMas isn't here yet. It's hard to "not meet expecations" for a quarter that essentially hasn't happened yet. We haven't even had Black Friday yet.
2) While XMas is the important sales quarter, back to school is the other important quarter for the new MB and that hasn't happened yet either.
So to find out the new MB really is doing will require you to wait until the results are known for Q1 and Q4 2009.