It is obvious that Apple does some kind of market research but not the focus group kind you get from consultants.
That they have duds isn't surprising. It's that they have so few duds since Jobs returned with the corresponding home runs that's interesting and above average. That's why Jobs is so important to Apple.
But hey, you can choose to disbelieve what Jobs says about Apple strategy if you like.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avon B7
Yes. Thanks both. I think you'll find it's the only link to that information. I believe it's also true to say that Jobs is bragging when he makes his claims. 'Distorting' is the word that comes to mind.
It's not distorting. Jobs is clearly stating that market trends is less important than making things that they are proud of. That is their strategy...not to chase the market but to define it for themselves.
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That second line makes things a lot clearer. Let's turn the RDF off for a second. I think he's referring to external market research. We don't do it 'per se'. Why did he say that if they've only hired one consultant in ten years? What is more interesting is that there is obviously a lot of market research that goes into Apple Retail Store locations. How would he explain that one?
What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.
"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."
I think we should take his comments for what they are: Complete nonsense.
Only because you disagree that the removal of FW was something they didn't do out of spite.
Apple's strategy may not be one you agree with but it does work for Apple and it has more successes than failures under Jobs.
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It is similar to Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman".
Apple does lot's of market research. Heaps and heaps. You will find evidence of it in almost every Jobs presentation, Ives interview etc.
Strawman. At least for me. The point isn't that market research doesn't happen at Apple but that it's not the primary driver for Apple. You may think that "we just want to make great products" is spin but it isn't. It's the corporate culture at Apple just like market dominance is the corporate culture at Microsoft. Even the scoffed at "You can make money without doing evil" at Google is a real part of their corporate culture (#6 as it happens...#1 is Focus on the user and all else follows). These companies may misstep or have to make compromises but they all do strive toward their corporate goals that is in harmony with their corporate cultures (market dominance as a corporate goal with Apple's culture would be a failure and was in the 90s).
That is what great companies great and average companies average. A commitment (and good execution) at the top to a focused corporate goal and culture vs market research/spreadsheet driven.
Apple has decided that FW isn't needed for the MB moving forward for the next couple years. Expansion (and to a lesser extent size) is the differentiation between their consumer and pro lines now that graphics and computing power is not. Hence no expresscard or FW on the MBs.
and that FW800 has the bandwidth to "meet current maximum hard drive performance"
(ie USB3 or ESata won't get you any further - not to say that they're not faster per se)
It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.
Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
I gave you a reference to where I think Jobs himself mentioned the eighteen months developing the techniques. The only bit I haven't located so far is an actual copy of the keynote address where he introduced those macs (MacWorld Tokyo 2001). When I locate a copy (and I said I was looking for one) I'll extract the necessary quotes. In the meantime I provided some links to what Jobs himself had to say at that same conference. From the links provided it seems that the technique used was new. NOT injection moulding as a technology but the way Apple used it. This was further defined in the other link that states that Apple had to design new injection moulding tools to achieve the results it wanted.
I made it very clear that I am speaking from memory. That's how I remember it from 2001.
Can you provide any links to the type of injection moulding that Apple used prior to it being used by Apple? The reason I ask is, if you can provide such a link, why on earth did SJ even bother to give the issue any keynote space at all? Could it be that the technique was new?
On the other issue I find my comments on Market Research to be far from tortured. I posed a question. Why did he throw 'per se' into the picture if Apple doesn't use MR?
My explanation is very clear.
You only gave that one link, and it didn't say anything other than the fact that the pictures, designs, were not one the surface but in it.
How does that support anything? Where did it talk about new molding technologies? It didn't.
The only difference in the Cube molds were that the molding lines (which were there, as Apple admitted after people were reporting cracks in the case) were finer than usual. All Apple did there was to tighten up the tolerances between the moulding parts. Nothing more.
And it has nothing to do with the with the Flower Power iMac cases.
And I don't have to come up with anything here, you do!
You were the one who made the initial statement, and so you are the one responsible to support it.
Yes, you would think YOUR statements were just fine. But you did distort his remarks.
It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.
Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
you're unbelievable - literally - i wish you would just stop responding with garbage
...is oxford the biggest producer of FW chips or is that Texas Instruments ?
Ok, since I can't find articles that saying anything other than Oxford being ONE of the biggest FW conversion (bridge) chips makers, I'll have to modify my statement to them being ONE of the biggest, unless I get lucky and find what I'm looking for.
This is really stupid. I don't hate FW. I just recognize what you don't, that's it's on the way out.
And where did I say that, as you say "no one supporting firewire in their computers"?
Can you find that statement from me? Have you actually been here all this time? Do you have a memory loss so that you can't remember what you've just read?
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It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
That was what I DID say in that post, and to which you were referring.
I think everyone here can see that it isn't my writing that's at fault, as you keep insisting, but your poor comprehension.
What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.
"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."
vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.
Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so
The new 1394b stack will be released in the next version of windows:
"Currently, there are not plans for down-level support
– This includes Vista and XP and server releases
– Reason for this is a lack of significant OEM demand"
Slide 4
Perhaps you should email him and tell him that there IS significant OEM demand for Firewire and that you don't want to wait for Windows 7 (rumored to be slated for 2009) for FW800 support.
Of course MS promised 1394b support in Vista but at least Win7 isn't far away. If they don't slip, Win7 and FW800 support will even be here before USB3. Wanna bet that USB3 support appears for Vista when it shows up?
"No prioritization has changed
– Microsoft strongly supports USB 3.0 (translation: Mr. Handwriting meet Mr. Wall.)
– We realize the broad customer base and need for 1394 support (translation: we realized that we could punt on supporting FW800 for Vista and no one really cared)
vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.
Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).
What you were implying was that Mel and presumably I fell for his RDF.
Sure, he does a lot of misdirection and fluffing stuff up. But the point remains that the corporate culture at Apple is not market research driven. There's obviously a big market for an xMac but it doesn't fit their overall product strategy because it would reduce overall profitability and trash their line of AIOs that they wish to preserve.
But even if it were market driven, FW would not be some huge priority. Especially given that it hasn't been for Microsoft if that slide says what I think it said: no new FW800 stack for Vista.
The new 1394b stack will be released in the next version of windows:
"Currently, there are not plans for down-level support
? This includes Vista and XP and server releases
? Reason for this is a lack of significant OEM demand"
Slide 4
Perhaps you should email him and tell him that there IS significant OEM demand for Firewire and that you don't want to wait for Windows 7 (rumored to be slated for 2009) for FW800 support.
Of course MS promised 1394b support in Vista but at least Win7 isn't far away. If they don't slip, Win7 and FW800 support will even be here before USB3. Wanna bet that USB3 support appears for Vista when it shows up?
"No prioritization has changed
? Microsoft strongly supports USB 3.0 (translation: Mr. Handwriting meet Mr. Wall.)
? We realize the broad customer base and need for 1394 support (translation: we realized that we could punt on supporting FW800 for Vista and no one really cared)
- No plans to support Hana or Wireless 1394."
Slide 6
Too bad for HANA eh?
nah i don't think i need to tell mr little
seeing as he turned he's obviously quite aware of the issues (more than us i dare say)
plus MS doesn't make the hardware i'm stuck with (due to my investment in software & associated learning curves)
so vista doesn't really interest me either (phew)
yeah i thought u'd like the HANA thing - who was it you were arguing that one with ?
as for the writing on the wall i find the last few slides are most telling
MS seem to be leaving it up to OEMs to bring their items in to be tested
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As soon as S1600 and S3200 devices are available get
them to Microsoft?s lab
this could explain why pickup of 1600/3200 isn't as fast as it could
ie no one taking responsibility - the chicken egg thing i talked about
whereas USB 3 being driven by Intel will certainly move forward
because once implemented people will have to upgrade their CPUs regularly (hence Intel's enthusiasm)
to even approach maximum speed... (particularly as media file sizes increase over time)
Apple's strategy may not be one you agree with but it does work for Apple and it has more successes than failures under Jobs.
I have a theory about that but it's not for this thread.
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That is what great companies great and average companies average. A commitment (and good execution) at the top to a focused corporate goal and culture vs market research/spreadsheet driven.
There's something wrong there. IBM is definitely a great company but falls squarely into the market research/spreadsheet hole. In business you cannot separate culture from market research and spreadsheets. Some companies are able to gloss things up and seem cultural but the real backbone of the companies that survive is spreadsheets and market research.
One of the things that has made Apple what it is today is good financial management. - Spreadsheet Heaven.
Sure, he does a lot of misdirection and fluffing stuff up. But the point remains that the corporate culture at Apple is not market research driven. There's obviously a big market for an xMac but it doesn't fit their overall product strategy because it would reduce overall profitability and trash their line of AIOs that they wish to preserve.
Sometimes Jobs pushes 'misdirection' and 'fluffing up' right off the scale. Who could forget him beating his chest and telling the world Apple was going to go after the other 95% of the PC market only to sit back and release products that are at the other end of the spectrum to where that 95% is sold?
They wanted 1% of the mobile phone market in a year but then proceeded to price the iPhone out of the range of its target customers resulting in some very quick backtracking.
Steve, why do you bother with such nonsense? If you really want that other 95% you know what you have to do.
Yes, lets wait and see. But I doubt that the MB isn't meeting expectations for two reasons:
1) XMas isn't here yet. It's hard to "not meet expecations" for a quarter that essentially hasn't happened yet. We haven't even had Black Friday yet.
2) While XMas is the important sales quarter, back to school is the other important quarter for the new MB and that hasn't happened yet either.
So to find out the new MB really is doing will require you to wait until the results are known for Q1 and Q4 2009.
While long term MacBook performance remains to be seen at least launch expectations should have been met:
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Originally Posted by AppleInsider
A slowing global economy had little impact on Apple's computer business last month, as consumers willingly plunked down their cash for the company's new MacBook offerings, helping to drive Mac sales up more than 25 percent year-over-year.
According to data from market research firm NPD, which was relayed in a research note from Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster, sales of Macs during the month of October were up 28 percent compared to the same month one year ago. They benefitted largely from the October 14th launch of the Unibody MacBook (review) and MacBook Pro (review), which began shipping immediately thereafter.
seeing as he turned he's obviously quite aware of the issues (more than us i dare say)
plus MS doesn't make the hardware i'm stuck with (due to my investment in software & associated learning curves)
so vista doesn't really interest me either (phew)
Well, you certainly cannot point to MS as some bastion of FW support if they wont even bother putting thier new 1394b stack into Vista as a SP as originally planned. Sticking it in there is trivial given that Win7 is based on Vista.
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yeah i thought u'd like the HANA thing - who was it you were arguing that one with ?
Avon B7.
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as for the writing on the wall i find the last few slides are most telling
MS seem to be leaving it up to OEMs to bring their items in to be tested
this could explain why pickup of 1600/3200 isn't as fast as it could
ie no one taking responsibility - the chicken egg thing i talked about
Which is why Apple appears to be abandoning FW for the consumer line.
Just like MS treating it as a legacy interface not even worthy enough to bother with for Vista. There's no OEM demand for any of FW's current (FW800) or future enhancements over FW400 for support in Vista. As a consumer desktop standard FW is dead if no one cares about anything but FW400 for a declining number of camcorders.
Sometimes Jobs pushes 'misdirection' and 'fluffing up' right off the scale. Who could forget him beating his chest and telling the world Apple was going to go after the other 95% of the PC market only to sit back and release products that are at the other end of the spectrum to where that 95% is sold?
Link.
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They wanted 1% of the mobile phone market in a year but then proceeded to price the iPhone out of the range of its target customers resulting in some very quick backtracking.
Yes, the target was 1%...or more precisely 20% of the smartphone market (5% and growing). The iPhone even before the price drops sold very well...to the desired target market: smart phone purchasers for which $300+ was no big deal.
There are a lot of folks that will pay that and you see that today with the massive iPhone sales. The iPhone still isn't cheap and it never will be.
They targetted a growing market segment that had a lot of so-so competitors and no one in a secure dominant position. Symbian is very beatable in the high end smartphone market. Apple has already beat Rim and met it's 10M goal and will likely meet it's 1% goal (12.8M) by the end of CY08.
If Apple ever wants a big numbers bump they can finally launch in China.
That 1% number is both real and deceptive. They mean they want to take over the "real" smartphone market that has high margins and leave the Symbian the low end. Kill Palm and marginalize RIM and MS to where the upper end smart phone market looks like the MP3 player market.
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Steve, why do you bother with such nonsense? If you really want that other 95% you know what you have to do.
He doesn't want that 95%. Are you joking? Apple succeeds by being an elite brand with fat margins to fuel even more excellent products.
Well, you certainly cannot point to MS as some bastion of FW support if they wont even bother putting thier new 1394b stack into Vista as a SP as originally planned. Sticking it in there is trivial given that Win7 is based on Vista.
Which is why Apple appears to be abandoning FW for the consumer line.
Just like MS treating it as a legacy interface not even worthy enough to bother with for Vista. There's no OEM demand for any of FW's current (FW800) or future enhancements over FW400 for support in Vista. As a consumer desktop standard FW is dead if no one cares about anything but FW400 for a declining number of camcorders.
yes but that's the point entirely... with MS they don't have to be a bastion of support
because the majority of laptops in the 1000+ range (including small form factor ones)
are equipped with PCI Express slots which means these conversations / threads never have to occur
because each user can choose his/her connection of choice (Esata, more USB2, FW400, FW800 etc)
and this will continue into PCI Express 2 for those that want USB3
...and yes i should look for some statistical links to support my "majority claim" \
except that it's hard because no one feels the need to do that kind of study
since there's so much choice available in terms of hardware on the MS / Linux platform
(but i'll look anyway)
whereas those of us who have chosen the Apple platform have to pay over $2000 for that 'privilege'
and there is no support for this choice (or any other) on a notebook under 2k or any consumer platform in the apple range
(i'm putting the mac pro as errr... pro)
and freedom of choice is certainly an advantage of the MS operating system
which many users are now noticing...
previously it was, "MS is ok but Apple is better and more technologically advanced"
now that we're getting diversification of technology we're realising
"Apple has a better OS, but once I go down that route I'm stuck with their hardware choices"
whereas previously their hardware was just generally better
now it's got better build quality (the debate can begin) but certain limits are being noticed (in this case connectivity)
and given the excellent article that you made me aware of
the trouble with SJ is that he's a total live wire - which leads to interesting and sometimes very good results
but he's quick to change his mind, even go back on his "word"
all well known to those who have followed the company for years
but not so much to all the recent switchers (who are the majority of purchasers these days accoring to some on this thread)
No link should be needed for this one. Apple and Jobs have used the reference at various times over the last eight years. How could you forget this?
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Yes, the target was 1%...or more precisely 20% of the smartphone market (5% and growing). The iPhone even before the price drops sold very well...to the desired target market: smart phone purchasers for which $300+ was no big deal.
There are a lot of folks that will pay that and you see that today with the massive iPhone sales. The iPhone still isn't cheap and it never will be.
Where to start? Apple never willingly reduces the prices of its products after introduction (even if the product is very long in the tooth and not competitive - Mac Mini). It's in their genes. For them to reduce prices things have to look pretty grim. For them to reduce prices by $200 means that things were looking worse than pretty grim. I'd say sales were not performing well within Apple's expectations. Hence the price cut. This for a product that was probably the most hyped in the company's history and just weeks after going on sale. For such a product just satisfying pent up demand should have given them more than enough nice vibrations for three plus months. To make matters worse Apple riled its best customers (those that buy without flinching, on nothing but hype) by cutting the price and taking too long to decide how early adopters would be handled. In the end, all they got were vouchers to buy other Apple products. This is the genius of Steve Jobs in all its glory. You would have thought the Cube lesson had been well learnt. A PR nightmare.
$300+ for a smartphone with no carrier subsidy, an exclusive carrier and forced data plans as part of a two year deal was completely the opposite: a very big deal. Moreso, as it had so many shortcomings for business users (that in some ways have been addressed in iPhone 3G).
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He doesn't want that 95%. Are you joking? Apple succeeds by being an elite brand with fat margins to fuel even more excellent products.
Since when do you need fat margins to fuel new product design? You can fuel the same designs by reducing margins and increasing volume sales. That way it's even better as you eat away at your competitors market share. That's another lesson Apple hasn't learnt very well. That's where a lot of the 95% is and Apple shows no signs at all of going there so they might as well stop spouting off about it because they run the risk of people not taking what they say seriously.
Apple Special 'invitation only' Events have been everything but special lately and they run the risk of boring people if they don't get their act together.
As for being 'elite'. I think not! You yourself claim that Apple's key demographic for one of its top selling products is students!
They have some high-end, low volume gear that may be considered 'elite' but perhaps with the exception of the iPhone, not much else.
As for the iPhone ever being cheap. Believe me it will happen. Nokia will see to it that Apple has to reduce prices to remain competitive. Apple is the minnow swimming in the shark infested mobile phone waters. And Nokia is the great white shark of that world.
No link should be needed for this one. Apple and Jobs have used the reference at various times over the last eight years. How could you forget this?
The reason for the link is to look at the source material that you think supports your position. In this case, it was to make sure you meant the switcher campaign.
Which worked by the way. It does NOT mean that Apple wants 95% of the market or to take over from Microsoft. Just that they wanted the cream of windows market...the ones with deeper pockets than the rest.
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Where to start? Apple never willingly reduces the prices of its products after introduction (even if the product is very long in the tooth and not competitive - Mac Mini). It's in their genes. For them to reduce prices things have to look pretty grim. For them to reduce prices by $200 means that things were looking worse than pretty grim. I'd say sales were not performing well within Apple's expectations. Hence the price cut.
Yah right, because there weren't people lined up to buy the thing and Apple didn't sell 270,000 in the first 30 hours. Sales must have been "grim" to have caused the iPhone price reduction.
Or maybe, the price drop was to stimulate more X-Mas sales at $399 as stated. The iPhone margins were STILL huge at $399 given that AT&T was revenue sharing.
Grim? What planet do you live on?
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This for a product that was probably the most hyped in the company's history and just weeks after going on sale. For such a product just satisfying pent up demand should have given them more than enough nice vibrations for three plus months.
June 29 to September 5th. 2 months. They were on track to sell 1M iPhones by end of September according to their press release.
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To make matters worse Apple riled its best customers (those that buy without flinching, on nothing but hype) by cutting the price and taking too long to decide how early adopters would be handled. In the end, all they got were vouchers to buy other Apple products. This is the genius of Steve Jobs in all its glory. You would have thought the Cube lesson had been well learnt. A PR nightmare.
So much a nightmare that they just kicked RIM's ass. Yea and verily the iPhone was a PR nightmare and a dismal failure.
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$300+ for a smartphone with no carrier subsidy, an exclusive carrier and forced data plans as part of a two year deal was completely the opposite: a very big deal. Moreso, as it had so many shortcomings for business users (that in some ways have been addressed in iPhone 3G).
Tell that to the 500-700K customers that purchased the iPhone prior to the price drop.
And no need to damn them with faint praise on the business side. They're only #1 in JD Power's business user satisfaction. Besides, it wasn't 3G but the 2.0 version of the OS.
In "some" ways addressed. Right. They only beat RIM 778 to 703 out of a posible score of 1000.
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Since when do you need fat margins to fuel new product design?
Since when did I write that? Never. What I said that they had fat margins which they use to fuel cool new products. Not that it was the ONLY way to fund new products.
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You can fuel the same designs by reducing margins and increasing volume sales. That way it's even better as you eat away at your competitors market share.
Yes, it's working great for Dell. And Apple has both fat margins AND industry leading growth.
Gee, that seems even better than even better.
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That's another lesson Apple hasn't learnt very well. That's where a lot of the 95% is and Apple shows no signs at all of going there so they might as well stop spouting off about it because they run the risk of people not taking what they say seriously.
Right, because Jobs and Apple is at some risk of not being taken seriously. AFTER they just kicked Palm, MS and RIM's ass in the already competitive smart phone market to become the #1 phone.
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Apple Special 'invitation only' Events have been everything but special lately and they run the risk of boring people if they don't get their act together.
Yes, because the new MB/MBP and 28% YOY sales increase was a yawner.
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As for being 'elite'. I think not! You yourself claim that Apple's key demographic for one of its top selling products is students!
Students that can pony up $1300 for a laptop. Yep, that's pretty elite given that many laptops run $500 and netbooks cheaper than that.
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They have some high-end, low volume gear that may be considered 'elite' but perhaps with the exception of the iPhone, not much else.
Right. Because you say so it must be true. Never mind that everyone else considers Apple to be a premium brand with prices to match.
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As for the iPhone ever being cheap. Believe me it will happen. Nokia will see to it that Apple has to reduce prices to remain competitive. Apple is the minnow swimming in the shark infested mobile phone waters. And Nokia is the great white shark of that world.
Right. Just like Microsoft/Dell/HP is the great white shark of the PC world.
At $199 the iPhone is already "cheap" for the consumer but AT&T kicks back a nice amount to Apple. It wont ever be a free phone.
yes but that's the point entirely... with MS they don't have to be a bastion of support because the majority of laptops in the 1000+ range (including small form factor ones) are equipped withPCI Express slots which means these conversations / threads never have to occur because each user can choose his/her connection of choice (Esata, more USB2, FW400, FW800 etc) and this will continue into PCI Express 2 for those that want USB3
Yes, because devices without OS support are very useful...yea and verily, card makers do ship with thier own drivers but the fact that there is no OEM demand for FW800 for Vista is very telling. HP, Dell, etc do not really give a shit about FW. It's just another check box and FW400 for legacy devices is fine.
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whereas those of us who have chosen the Apple platform have to pay over $2000 for that 'privilege' and there is no support for this choice (or any other) on a notebook under 2k or any consumer platform in the apple range (i'm putting the mac pro as errr... pro)
So don't. Get a Dell or HP for less.
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and freedom of choice is certainly an advantage of the MS operating system
which many users are now noticing...
So many users that the OSX market share is growing and not shrinking.
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previously it was, "MS is ok but Apple is better and more technologically advanced"
now that we're getting diversification of technology we're realising "Apple has a better OS, but once I go down that route I'm stuck with their hardware choices" whereas previously their hardware was just generally better now it's got better build quality (the debate can begin) but certain limits are being noticed (in this case connectivity)
Yes, more and more folks are "stuck" with Apple hardware that they intentionally choose.
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and given the excellent article that you made me aware of
the trouble with SJ is that he's a total live wire - which leads to interesting and sometimes very good results
but he's quick to change his mind, even go back on his "word"
all well known to those who have followed the company for years
but not so much to all the recent switchers (who are the majority of purchasers these days accoring to some on this thread)
Yep, SJ is a lying slacker that rarely makes good on his promises.
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which is why I'm sure that any thinking business may feel the need to take a bit of a distance
Yes, because devices without OS support are very useful...yea and verily, card makers do ship with thier own drivers but the fact that there is no OEM demand for FW800 for Vista is very telling. HP, Dell, etc do not really give a shit about FW. It's just another check box and FW400 for legacy devices is fine.
you're arguing the same point sherlock
as i said - they don't have to care... the user can choose what technology they want
HP, Dell etc only have to provide the card slot and belkin or whoever provides the card
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So don't. Get a Dell or HP for less.
this is most persistent low IQ argument that fanboys like yourself keep coming out with
just stop it, take a break, have a look which forum you're on
and start thinking about why it's not as easy as that
if i was on a system that didn't have me locked in (which is apple's game plan)
do you think i'd care about brand loyalty?
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So many users that the OSX market share is growing and not shrinking.
in the short term maybe...
if they keep up the path with hardware DRM, increasing prices, gloss only screens
and deleting ports we'll see how fast they grow
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Yes, more and more folks are "stuck" with Apple hardware that they intentionally choose.
again, following your arguments that most of the new market are switchers
and students at that, let's see how happy they are when they discover that
they can't plug in dad's relatively new DV camcorder
or use their school's / uni / college brand new high end version for that matter
"hey the guy in the apple store told me this was the top of the techno heap???"
notice how wrt the DRM apple didn't warn anyone before a purchase... very good and honest business model right ?
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Yep, SJ is a lying slacker that rarely makes good on his promises.
no one said that except you... \
you don't have to believe the article that you yourself posted - i thought it was rather well written
but yes i did notice that the authors views weren't always positive towards Mr Jobs
neither were some of his co workers
is that a good or a bad thing - who knows ?
he and Mr Ives have had pretty good results to date...
interestingly the firewire thread over at macrumors is still alive as well...
this was from one of the most recent posts #2217 which i thought was quite pertinent:
Quote:
I've been disappointed for some time and I think it took the firewire issue to bring it to a head. I have begun the transitions to PC's and it's not as painful as I expected. A few tweaks in Vista (with SP1) and it takes care of most of the "memory hog" issues. Also, it's been really stable. Do I prefer it over OSX? No, but the hardware options are helping me get over it. I can recommend fairly inexpensive laptops to my students and if they don't have firewire they have an expansion card slot so that firewire can be added.
(the disappointment was to do with a question about whether apple is aiming at the
lowest common denominator - and effectively become a prettier dell)
Comments
It is obvious that Apple does some kind of market research but not the focus group kind you get from consultants.
That they have duds isn't surprising. It's that they have so few duds since Jobs returned with the corresponding home runs that's interesting and above average. That's why Jobs is so important to Apple.
But hey, you can choose to disbelieve what Jobs says about Apple strategy if you like.
Yes. Thanks both. I think you'll find it's the only link to that information. I believe it's also true to say that Jobs is bragging when he makes his claims. 'Distorting' is the word that comes to mind.
It's not distorting. Jobs is clearly stating that market trends is less important than making things that they are proud of. That is their strategy...not to chase the market but to define it for themselves.
That second line makes things a lot clearer. Let's turn the RDF off for a second. I think he's referring to external market research. We don't do it 'per se'. Why did he say that if they've only hired one consultant in ten years? What is more interesting is that there is obviously a lot of market research that goes into Apple Retail Store locations. How would he explain that one?
What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.
"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."
http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/pro/marketing/scenes.html
I think we should take his comments for what they are: Complete nonsense.
Only because you disagree that the removal of FW was something they didn't do out of spite.
Apple's strategy may not be one you agree with but it does work for Apple and it has more successes than failures under Jobs.
It is similar to Clinton saying "I did not have sex with that woman".
Apple does lot's of market research. Heaps and heaps. You will find evidence of it in almost every Jobs presentation, Ives interview etc.
Strawman. At least for me. The point isn't that market research doesn't happen at Apple but that it's not the primary driver for Apple. You may think that "we just want to make great products" is spin but it isn't. It's the corporate culture at Apple just like market dominance is the corporate culture at Microsoft. Even the scoffed at "You can make money without doing evil" at Google is a real part of their corporate culture (#6 as it happens...#1 is Focus on the user and all else follows). These companies may misstep or have to make compromises but they all do strive toward their corporate goals that is in harmony with their corporate cultures (market dominance as a corporate goal with Apple's culture would be a failure and was in the 90s).
That is what great companies great and average companies average. A commitment (and good execution) at the top to a focused corporate goal and culture vs market research/spreadsheet driven.
Apple has decided that FW isn't needed for the MB moving forward for the next couple years. Expansion (and to a lesser extent size) is the differentiation between their consumer and pro lines now that graphics and computing power is not. Hence no expresscard or FW on the MBs.
some more food for thought
Microsoft's view on FW
and this is a good summary of the situation
by Oxford semiconductor
note the CPU load of USB vs FW
and that FW800 has the bandwidth to "meet current maximum hard drive performance"
(ie USB3 or ESata won't get you any further - not to say that they're not faster per se)
It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.
Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
I gave you a reference to where I think Jobs himself mentioned the eighteen months developing the techniques. The only bit I haven't located so far is an actual copy of the keynote address where he introduced those macs (MacWorld Tokyo 2001). When I locate a copy (and I said I was looking for one) I'll extract the necessary quotes. In the meantime I provided some links to what Jobs himself had to say at that same conference. From the links provided it seems that the technique used was new. NOT injection moulding as a technology but the way Apple used it. This was further defined in the other link that states that Apple had to design new injection moulding tools to achieve the results it wanted.
I made it very clear that I am speaking from memory. That's how I remember it from 2001.
Can you provide any links to the type of injection moulding that Apple used prior to it being used by Apple? The reason I ask is, if you can provide such a link, why on earth did SJ even bother to give the issue any keynote space at all? Could it be that the technique was new?
On the other issue I find my comments on Market Research to be far from tortured. I posed a question. Why did he throw 'per se' into the picture if Apple doesn't use MR?
My explanation is very clear.
You only gave that one link, and it didn't say anything other than the fact that the pictures, designs, were not one the surface but in it.
How does that support anything? Where did it talk about new molding technologies? It didn't.
The only difference in the Cube molds were that the molding lines (which were there, as Apple admitted after people were reporting cracks in the case) were finer than usual. All Apple did there was to tighten up the tolerances between the moulding parts. Nothing more.
And it has nothing to do with the with the Flower Power iMac cases.
And I don't have to come up with anything here, you do!
You were the one who made the initial statement, and so you are the one responsible to support it.
Yes, you would think YOUR statements were just fine. But you did distort his remarks.
It's simply wrong, and there have been many tests that show that, including the one I posted a few days ago from BareFeats. SATA just kills FW800.
Gee, I wonder why Oxford, the biggest producer of FW conversion chips would try to have us think this? Could it be because they're seeing their business shrivel up?
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
you're unbelievable - literally - i wish you would just stop responding with garbage
...is oxford the biggest producer of FW chips or is that Texas Instruments ?
TI had 75% of the PC market back in 2001 but that's eons ago and only the PC market
so right now i don't actually know, and until either I do some research or you back up your claims
no one is any the wiser... certainly not for your lame attempts at grinding your "i hate firewire"axe
anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: [email protected]
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so
and your statements about no one supporting firewire in their computers is also drivel
but again this will be wrong, because you want it to be
you're unbelievable - literally - i wish you would just stop responding with garbage
...is oxford the biggest producer of FW chips or is that Texas Instruments ?
TI had 75% of the PC market back in 2001 but that's eons ago and only the PC market
so right now i don't actually know, and until either I do some research or you back up your claims
no one is any the wiser... certainly not for your lame attempts at grinding your "i hate firewire"axe
anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: [email protected]
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so
and your statements about no one supporting firewire in their computers is also drivel
but again this will be wrong, because you want it to be
Don't you actually ever read what I say? I guess not.
I said that:
Oxford, the biggest producer of conversion chips
Conversion, of course, meaning bridging.
TI may be the biggest supplier of FW controller chips overall, but not for what Oxford makes.
http://www.wiebetech.com/whitepapers...eevolution.pdf
Ok, since I can't find articles that saying anything other than Oxford being ONE of the biggest FW conversion (bridge) chips makers, I'll have to modify my statement to them being ONE of the biggest, unless I get lucky and find what I'm looking for.
This is really stupid. I don't hate FW. I just recognize what you don't, that's it's on the way out.
This article gives a good idea why:
http://techthoughts.org/2007/12/21/f...3200-mbps-why/
And where did I say that, as you say "no one supporting firewire in their computers"?
Can you find that statement from me? Have you actually been here all this time? Do you have a memory loss so that you can't remember what you've just read?
It's interesting that it seems virtually no one supports FW800 in their computers except Apple. It's almost all FW400. That was also in a posting I made.
That was what I DID say in that post, and to which you were referring.
I think everyone here can see that it isn't my writing that's at fault, as you keep insisting, but your poor comprehension.
What RDF? I clearly stated that Apple does market research and if you bothered to even google it you'd find market research work mentioned on Apple's own site.
"In Product Marketing there are opportunities to work across just about every discipline of the company, from market research to product design, engineering to legal and finance, industrial design to sales, manufacturing to customers, you name it."
http://www.apple.com/jobs/us/pro/marketing/scenes.html
vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.
Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).
anway so why don't you just email zach little and tell him he's wrong too: [email protected]
oh that's right he works for the USB Implementors Forum as well (wireless section)
so clearly he's biased towards firewire - no wait. he's just wrong. 'cause Mel said so
The new 1394b stack will be released in the next version of windows:
"Currently, there are not plans for down-level support
– This includes Vista and XP and server releases
– Reason for this is a lack of significant OEM demand"
Slide 4
Perhaps you should email him and tell him that there IS significant OEM demand for Firewire and that you don't want to wait for Windows 7 (rumored to be slated for 2009) for FW800 support.
Of course MS promised 1394b support in Vista but at least Win7 isn't far away. If they don't slip, Win7 and FW800 support will even be here before USB3. Wanna bet that USB3 support appears for Vista when it shows up?
"No prioritization has changed
– Microsoft strongly supports USB 3.0 (translation: Mr. Handwriting meet Mr. Wall.)
– We realize the broad customer base and need for 1394 support (translation: we realized that we could punt on supporting FW800 for Vista and no one really cared)
- No plans to support Hana or Wireless 1394."
Slide 6
Too bad for HANA eh?
vinea, I wasn't referring to you but to Jobs and his famous RDF. We all know that we must take everything he says with a pinch of salt (especially if he's talking something up). It's often better to look at what he doesn't say than what he does say.
Notice how he skipped all mention of firewire on the MacBooks (to the point of not even including a port slide).
What you were implying was that Mel and presumably I fell for his RDF.
Sure, he does a lot of misdirection and fluffing stuff up. But the point remains that the corporate culture at Apple is not market research driven. There's obviously a big market for an xMac but it doesn't fit their overall product strategy because it would reduce overall profitability and trash their line of AIOs that they wish to preserve.
But even if it were market driven, FW would not be some huge priority. Especially given that it hasn't been for Microsoft if that slide says what I think it said: no new FW800 stack for Vista.
The new 1394b stack will be released in the next version of windows:
"Currently, there are not plans for down-level support
? This includes Vista and XP and server releases
? Reason for this is a lack of significant OEM demand"
Slide 4
Perhaps you should email him and tell him that there IS significant OEM demand for Firewire and that you don't want to wait for Windows 7 (rumored to be slated for 2009) for FW800 support.
Of course MS promised 1394b support in Vista but at least Win7 isn't far away. If they don't slip, Win7 and FW800 support will even be here before USB3. Wanna bet that USB3 support appears for Vista when it shows up?
"No prioritization has changed
? Microsoft strongly supports USB 3.0 (translation: Mr. Handwriting meet Mr. Wall.)
? We realize the broad customer base and need for 1394 support (translation: we realized that we could punt on supporting FW800 for Vista and no one really cared)
- No plans to support Hana or Wireless 1394."
Slide 6
Too bad for HANA eh?
nah i don't think i need to tell mr little
seeing as he turned he's obviously quite aware of the issues (more than us i dare say)
plus MS doesn't make the hardware i'm stuck with (due to my investment in software & associated learning curves)
so vista doesn't really interest me either (phew)
yeah i thought u'd like the HANA thing - who was it you were arguing that one with ?
as for the writing on the wall i find the last few slides are most telling
MS seem to be leaving it up to OEMs to bring their items in to be tested
As soon as S1600 and S3200 devices are available get
them to Microsoft?s lab
this could explain why pickup of 1600/3200 isn't as fast as it could
ie no one taking responsibility - the chicken egg thing i talked about
whereas USB 3 being driven by Intel will certainly move forward
because once implemented people will have to upgrade their CPUs regularly (hence Intel's enthusiasm)
to even approach maximum speed... (particularly as media file sizes increase over time)
Apple's strategy may not be one you agree with but it does work for Apple and it has more successes than failures under Jobs.
I have a theory about that but it's not for this thread.
That is what great companies great and average companies average. A commitment (and good execution) at the top to a focused corporate goal and culture vs market research/spreadsheet driven.
There's something wrong there. IBM is definitely a great company but falls squarely into the market research/spreadsheet hole. In business you cannot separate culture from market research and spreadsheets. Some companies are able to gloss things up and seem cultural but the real backbone of the companies that survive is spreadsheets and market research.
One of the things that has made Apple what it is today is good financial management. - Spreadsheet Heaven.
Sure, he does a lot of misdirection and fluffing stuff up. But the point remains that the corporate culture at Apple is not market research driven. There's obviously a big market for an xMac but it doesn't fit their overall product strategy because it would reduce overall profitability and trash their line of AIOs that they wish to preserve.
Sometimes Jobs pushes 'misdirection' and 'fluffing up' right off the scale. Who could forget him beating his chest and telling the world Apple was going to go after the other 95% of the PC market only to sit back and release products that are at the other end of the spectrum to where that 95% is sold?
They wanted 1% of the mobile phone market in a year but then proceeded to price the iPhone out of the range of its target customers resulting in some very quick backtracking.
Steve, why do you bother with such nonsense? If you really want that other 95% you know what you have to do.
Yes, lets wait and see. But I doubt that the MB isn't meeting expectations for two reasons:
1) XMas isn't here yet. It's hard to "not meet expecations" for a quarter that essentially hasn't happened yet. We haven't even had Black Friday yet.
2) While XMas is the important sales quarter, back to school is the other important quarter for the new MB and that hasn't happened yet either.
So to find out the new MB really is doing will require you to wait until the results are known for Q1 and Q4 2009.
While long term MacBook performance remains to be seen at least launch expectations should have been met:
A slowing global economy had little impact on Apple's computer business last month, as consumers willingly plunked down their cash for the company's new MacBook offerings, helping to drive Mac sales up more than 25 percent year-over-year.
According to data from market research firm NPD, which was relayed in a research note from Piper Jaffray analyst Gene Munster, sales of Macs during the month of October were up 28 percent compared to the same month one year ago. They benefitted largely from the October 14th launch of the Unibody MacBook (review) and MacBook Pro (review), which began shipping immediately thereafter.
...
[ View this article at AppleInsider.com ]
nah i don't think i need to tell mr little
seeing as he turned he's obviously quite aware of the issues (more than us i dare say)
plus MS doesn't make the hardware i'm stuck with (due to my investment in software & associated learning curves)
so vista doesn't really interest me either (phew)
Well, you certainly cannot point to MS as some bastion of FW support if they wont even bother putting thier new 1394b stack into Vista as a SP as originally planned. Sticking it in there is trivial given that Win7 is based on Vista.
yeah i thought u'd like the HANA thing - who was it you were arguing that one with ?
Avon B7.
as for the writing on the wall i find the last few slides are most telling
MS seem to be leaving it up to OEMs to bring their items in to be tested
this could explain why pickup of 1600/3200 isn't as fast as it could
ie no one taking responsibility - the chicken egg thing i talked about
Which is why Apple appears to be abandoning FW for the consumer line.
Just like MS treating it as a legacy interface not even worthy enough to bother with for Vista. There's no OEM demand for any of FW's current (FW800) or future enhancements over FW400 for support in Vista. As a consumer desktop standard FW is dead if no one cares about anything but FW400 for a declining number of camcorders.
Sometimes Jobs pushes 'misdirection' and 'fluffing up' right off the scale. Who could forget him beating his chest and telling the world Apple was going to go after the other 95% of the PC market only to sit back and release products that are at the other end of the spectrum to where that 95% is sold?
Link.
They wanted 1% of the mobile phone market in a year but then proceeded to price the iPhone out of the range of its target customers resulting in some very quick backtracking.
Yes, the target was 1%...or more precisely 20% of the smartphone market (5% and growing). The iPhone even before the price drops sold very well...to the desired target market: smart phone purchasers for which $300+ was no big deal.
There are a lot of folks that will pay that and you see that today with the massive iPhone sales. The iPhone still isn't cheap and it never will be.
They targetted a growing market segment that had a lot of so-so competitors and no one in a secure dominant position. Symbian is very beatable in the high end smartphone market. Apple has already beat Rim and met it's 10M goal and will likely meet it's 1% goal (12.8M) by the end of CY08.
If Apple ever wants a big numbers bump they can finally launch in China.
That 1% number is both real and deceptive. They mean they want to take over the "real" smartphone market that has high margins and leave the Symbian the low end. Kill Palm and marginalize RIM and MS to where the upper end smart phone market looks like the MP3 player market.
Steve, why do you bother with such nonsense? If you really want that other 95% you know what you have to do.
He doesn't want that 95%. Are you joking? Apple succeeds by being an elite brand with fat margins to fuel even more excellent products.
Well, you certainly cannot point to MS as some bastion of FW support if they wont even bother putting thier new 1394b stack into Vista as a SP as originally planned. Sticking it in there is trivial given that Win7 is based on Vista.
Which is why Apple appears to be abandoning FW for the consumer line.
Just like MS treating it as a legacy interface not even worthy enough to bother with for Vista. There's no OEM demand for any of FW's current (FW800) or future enhancements over FW400 for support in Vista. As a consumer desktop standard FW is dead if no one cares about anything but FW400 for a declining number of camcorders.
yes but that's the point entirely... with MS they don't have to be a bastion of support
because the majority of laptops in the 1000+ range (including small form factor ones)
are equipped with PCI Express slots which means these conversations / threads never have to occur
because each user can choose his/her connection of choice (Esata, more USB2, FW400, FW800 etc)
and this will continue into PCI Express 2 for those that want USB3
...and yes i should look for some statistical links to support my "majority claim"
except that it's hard because no one feels the need to do that kind of study
since there's so much choice available in terms of hardware on the MS / Linux platform
(but i'll look anyway)
whereas those of us who have chosen the Apple platform have to pay over $2000 for that 'privilege'
and there is no support for this choice (or any other) on a notebook under 2k or any consumer platform in the apple range
(i'm putting the mac pro as errr... pro)
and freedom of choice is certainly an advantage of the MS operating system
which many users are now noticing...
previously it was, "MS is ok but Apple is better and more technologically advanced"
now that we're getting diversification of technology we're realising
"Apple has a better OS, but once I go down that route I'm stuck with their hardware choices"
whereas previously their hardware was just generally better
now it's got better build quality (the debate can begin) but certain limits are being noticed (in this case connectivity)
and given the excellent article that you made me aware of
the trouble with SJ is that he's a total live wire - which leads to interesting and sometimes very good results
but he's quick to change his mind, even go back on his "word"
all well known to those who have followed the company for years
but not so much to all the recent switchers (who are the majority of purchasers these days accoring to some on this thread)
which is why I'm sure that any thinking business
may feel the need to take a bit of a distance
Link.
No link should be needed for this one. Apple and Jobs have used the reference at various times over the last eight years. How could you forget this?
Yes, the target was 1%...or more precisely 20% of the smartphone market (5% and growing). The iPhone even before the price drops sold very well...to the desired target market: smart phone purchasers for which $300+ was no big deal.
There are a lot of folks that will pay that and you see that today with the massive iPhone sales. The iPhone still isn't cheap and it never will be.
Where to start? Apple never willingly reduces the prices of its products after introduction (even if the product is very long in the tooth and not competitive - Mac Mini). It's in their genes. For them to reduce prices things have to look pretty grim. For them to reduce prices by $200 means that things were looking worse than pretty grim. I'd say sales were not performing well within Apple's expectations. Hence the price cut. This for a product that was probably the most hyped in the company's history and just weeks after going on sale. For such a product just satisfying pent up demand should have given them more than enough nice vibrations for three plus months. To make matters worse Apple riled its best customers (those that buy without flinching, on nothing but hype) by cutting the price and taking too long to decide how early adopters would be handled. In the end, all they got were vouchers to buy other Apple products. This is the genius of Steve Jobs in all its glory. You would have thought the Cube lesson had been well learnt. A PR nightmare.
$300+ for a smartphone with no carrier subsidy, an exclusive carrier and forced data plans as part of a two year deal was completely the opposite: a very big deal. Moreso, as it had so many shortcomings for business users (that in some ways have been addressed in iPhone 3G).
He doesn't want that 95%. Are you joking? Apple succeeds by being an elite brand with fat margins to fuel even more excellent products.
Since when do you need fat margins to fuel new product design? You can fuel the same designs by reducing margins and increasing volume sales. That way it's even better as you eat away at your competitors market share. That's another lesson Apple hasn't learnt very well. That's where a lot of the 95% is and Apple shows no signs at all of going there so they might as well stop spouting off about it because they run the risk of people not taking what they say seriously.
Apple Special 'invitation only' Events have been everything but special lately and they run the risk of boring people if they don't get their act together.
As for being 'elite'. I think not! You yourself claim that Apple's key demographic for one of its top selling products is students!
They have some high-end, low volume gear that may be considered 'elite' but perhaps with the exception of the iPhone, not much else.
As for the iPhone ever being cheap. Believe me it will happen. Nokia will see to it that Apple has to reduce prices to remain competitive. Apple is the minnow swimming in the shark infested mobile phone waters. And Nokia is the great white shark of that world.
No link should be needed for this one. Apple and Jobs have used the reference at various times over the last eight years. How could you forget this?
The reason for the link is to look at the source material that you think supports your position. In this case, it was to make sure you meant the switcher campaign.
Which worked by the way. It does NOT mean that Apple wants 95% of the market or to take over from Microsoft. Just that they wanted the cream of windows market...the ones with deeper pockets than the rest.
Where to start? Apple never willingly reduces the prices of its products after introduction (even if the product is very long in the tooth and not competitive - Mac Mini). It's in their genes. For them to reduce prices things have to look pretty grim. For them to reduce prices by $200 means that things were looking worse than pretty grim. I'd say sales were not performing well within Apple's expectations. Hence the price cut.
Yah right, because there weren't people lined up to buy the thing and Apple didn't sell 270,000 in the first 30 hours. Sales must have been "grim" to have caused the iPhone price reduction.
Or maybe, the price drop was to stimulate more X-Mas sales at $399 as stated. The iPhone margins were STILL huge at $399 given that AT&T was revenue sharing.
Grim? What planet do you live on?
This for a product that was probably the most hyped in the company's history and just weeks after going on sale. For such a product just satisfying pent up demand should have given them more than enough nice vibrations for three plus months.
June 29 to September 5th. 2 months. They were on track to sell 1M iPhones by end of September according to their press release.
To make matters worse Apple riled its best customers (those that buy without flinching, on nothing but hype) by cutting the price and taking too long to decide how early adopters would be handled. In the end, all they got were vouchers to buy other Apple products. This is the genius of Steve Jobs in all its glory. You would have thought the Cube lesson had been well learnt. A PR nightmare.
So much a nightmare that they just kicked RIM's ass. Yea and verily the iPhone was a PR nightmare and a dismal failure.
$300+ for a smartphone with no carrier subsidy, an exclusive carrier and forced data plans as part of a two year deal was completely the opposite: a very big deal. Moreso, as it had so many shortcomings for business users (that in some ways have been addressed in iPhone 3G).
Tell that to the 500-700K customers that purchased the iPhone prior to the price drop.
And no need to damn them with faint praise on the business side. They're only #1 in JD Power's business user satisfaction. Besides, it wasn't 3G but the 2.0 version of the OS.
http://www.ipodobserver.com/story/37784
In "some" ways addressed. Right. They only beat RIM 778 to 703 out of a posible score of 1000.
Since when do you need fat margins to fuel new product design?
Since when did I write that? Never. What I said that they had fat margins which they use to fuel cool new products. Not that it was the ONLY way to fund new products.
You can fuel the same designs by reducing margins and increasing volume sales. That way it's even better as you eat away at your competitors market share.
Yes, it's working great for Dell. And Apple has both fat margins AND industry leading growth.
Gee, that seems even better than even better.
That's another lesson Apple hasn't learnt very well. That's where a lot of the 95% is and Apple shows no signs at all of going there so they might as well stop spouting off about it because they run the risk of people not taking what they say seriously.
Right, because Jobs and Apple is at some risk of not being taken seriously. AFTER they just kicked Palm, MS and RIM's ass in the already competitive smart phone market to become the #1 phone.
Apple Special 'invitation only' Events have been everything but special lately and they run the risk of boring people if they don't get their act together.
Yes, because the new MB/MBP and 28% YOY sales increase was a yawner.
As for being 'elite'. I think not! You yourself claim that Apple's key demographic for one of its top selling products is students!
Students that can pony up $1300 for a laptop. Yep, that's pretty elite given that many laptops run $500 and netbooks cheaper than that.
They have some high-end, low volume gear that may be considered 'elite' but perhaps with the exception of the iPhone, not much else.
Right. Because you say so it must be true. Never mind that everyone else considers Apple to be a premium brand with prices to match.
As for the iPhone ever being cheap. Believe me it will happen. Nokia will see to it that Apple has to reduce prices to remain competitive. Apple is the minnow swimming in the shark infested mobile phone waters. And Nokia is the great white shark of that world.
Right. Just like Microsoft/Dell/HP is the great white shark of the PC world.
At $199 the iPhone is already "cheap" for the consumer but AT&T kicks back a nice amount to Apple. It wont ever be a free phone.
yes but that's the point entirely... with MS they don't have to be a bastion of support because the majority of laptops in the 1000+ range (including small form factor ones) are equipped withPCI Express slots which means these conversations / threads never have to occur because each user can choose his/her connection of choice (Esata, more USB2, FW400, FW800 etc) and this will continue into PCI Express 2 for those that want USB3
Yes, because devices without OS support are very useful...yea and verily, card makers do ship with thier own drivers but the fact that there is no OEM demand for FW800 for Vista is very telling. HP, Dell, etc do not really give a shit about FW. It's just another check box and FW400 for legacy devices is fine.
whereas those of us who have chosen the Apple platform have to pay over $2000 for that 'privilege' and there is no support for this choice (or any other) on a notebook under 2k or any consumer platform in the apple range (i'm putting the mac pro as errr... pro)
So don't. Get a Dell or HP for less.
and freedom of choice is certainly an advantage of the MS operating system
which many users are now noticing...
So many users that the OSX market share is growing and not shrinking.
previously it was, "MS is ok but Apple is better and more technologically advanced"
now that we're getting diversification of technology we're realising "Apple has a better OS, but once I go down that route I'm stuck with their hardware choices" whereas previously their hardware was just generally better now it's got better build quality (the debate can begin) but certain limits are being noticed (in this case connectivity)
Yes, more and more folks are "stuck" with Apple hardware that they intentionally choose.
and given the excellent article that you made me aware of
the trouble with SJ is that he's a total live wire - which leads to interesting and sometimes very good results
but he's quick to change his mind, even go back on his "word"
all well known to those who have followed the company for years
but not so much to all the recent switchers (who are the majority of purchasers these days accoring to some on this thread)
Yep, SJ is a lying slacker that rarely makes good on his promises.
which is why I'm sure that any thinking business may feel the need to take a bit of a distance
Riiight...
Yes, because devices without OS support are very useful...yea and verily, card makers do ship with thier own drivers but the fact that there is no OEM demand for FW800 for Vista is very telling. HP, Dell, etc do not really give a shit about FW. It's just another check box and FW400 for legacy devices is fine.
you're arguing the same point sherlock
as i said - they don't have to care... the user can choose what technology they want
HP, Dell etc only have to provide the card slot and belkin or whoever provides the card
So don't. Get a Dell or HP for less.
this is most persistent low IQ argument that fanboys like yourself keep coming out with
just stop it, take a break, have a look which forum you're on
and start thinking about why it's not as easy as that
if i was on a system that didn't have me locked in (which is apple's game plan)
do you think i'd care about brand loyalty?
So many users that the OSX market share is growing and not shrinking.
in the short term maybe...
if they keep up the path with hardware DRM, increasing prices, gloss only screens
and deleting ports we'll see how fast they grow
Yes, more and more folks are "stuck" with Apple hardware that they intentionally choose.
again, following your arguments that most of the new market are switchers
and students at that, let's see how happy they are when they discover that
they can't plug in dad's relatively new DV camcorder
or use their school's / uni / college brand new high end version for that matter
"hey the guy in the apple store told me this was the top of the techno heap???"
notice how wrt the DRM apple didn't warn anyone before a purchase... very good and honest business model right ?
Yep, SJ is a lying slacker that rarely makes good on his promises.
no one said that except you...
you don't have to believe the article that you yourself posted - i thought it was rather well written
but yes i did notice that the authors views weren't always positive towards Mr Jobs
neither were some of his co workers
is that a good or a bad thing - who knows ?
he and Mr Ives have had pretty good results to date...
this was from one of the most recent posts #2217 which i thought was quite pertinent:
I've been disappointed for some time and I think it took the firewire issue to bring it to a head. I have begun the transitions to PC's and it's not as painful as I expected. A few tweaks in Vista (with SP1) and it takes care of most of the "memory hog" issues. Also, it's been really stable. Do I prefer it over OSX? No, but the hardware options are helping me get over it. I can recommend fairly inexpensive laptops to my students and if they don't have firewire they have an expansion card slot so that firewire can be added.
(the disappointment was to do with a question about whether apple is aiming at the
lowest common denominator - and effectively become a prettier dell)